Second Rift War OOC

[Guinness]

Today's (2010) estimated population on Masirah is about 12,000. The British military came in the 1930s. I've not yet found population figures from before 1930, but I suspect it was certainly no more than today, and quite possibly much less.

The atrocities perpetrated by the Habsburgers and Ottomans in the last Balkan conflict, and I suspect the reprisals perpetrated by the Greek partisans after their "liberation"* during that war were all of greater magnitude, I suspect. Ditto some surely ugly stuff that happened during the recent Mesoamerican civil war, and who knows what may have happened in the recent Pacific War.

Given all that, it seems unlikely to me that many would get fired up about what the Dutch have claimed on Masirah. Modern for 1919 photography might have some additional effect here, and I suppose if the Dutch shot some movie footage for the newsreels, that could too, but as Mike points out, widespread understanding of crimes against civilians in war really didn't come until World War 2, and that was the result of new more persuasive mass media, and the collective european memory of the losses of World War 1 as much as anything else, I believe. Certainly some of Wilson's 14 points and the idea of the League of Nations extended from events as far back as the Boer War and the Russo-Japanese War, but the League never would have gained traction if it hadn't been for World War 1.

Somewhere in my humble library, I have a book on this subject from a class I took at University about media coverage of war. I can't remember the title. It's probably in a box...

*Sorry Mike, as Ottoman player I've got to use the quotes here. :)

[Desertfox]

I was speaking OOC not IC. And everything I said can be confirmed by others OOC. IC of course it's all just Swiss lies...

[damocles]

http://www.nps.gov/history/NR/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/11andersonville/11andersonville.htm

I figure population stability around 12,000 hit 1890. I can adjust that but it seems the eco-range burden Human limit for the island sans advanced 1920s tech.   

As for warcrimes excitement, there was quite a furor over Boer War atrocities too, as I recall. Australians were the fall-guys in that case.

Videos will be available for world wide cinema distribution as soon as I can simulate it.

I am going to push this storyline.

[Guinness]

As for warcrimes excitement, there was quite a furor over Boer War atrocities too, as I recall. Australians were the fall-guys in that case.

I'm reading Massie's Dreadnought right now. It's got chapter about the Boer War, which reminded me how much public perception in Europe was the result of conscious decisions by decision makers on the continent, especially German and French, to push the story of atrocities as a way to damage British position and prestige, especially at a time when it looked like Britain and Germany might buddy up.

I suppose there are parallels to that situation here too.

[miketr]

One answer.....

League of Nations was founded in the 1920s partly as a reaction to international atrocities committed in the 1880s-1910s, not just WW I; but for such things as the Sudan and the Boer War.

Yes and it was utterly ineffective.

Rules of war were in place since the 1860s RTL and people were tried and hanged for their war-crimes in several nations because of those rules.  

Its well past time that such barbarism in the Nverse ended, too.

Yes people were put on trial by their own militaries for violations of military regulations in the field.  Totally different than international reaction especially effective international reaction.


Michael

[miketr]

As for warcrimes excitement, there was quite a furor over Boer War atrocities too, as I recall. Australians were the fall-guys in that case.

Look up the Herero or the Armenian genocide, US tactics in the Philippines, a very long list besides.  Guess what OTHER than news papers and the like nothing meaningful occurred.

Look up the Christian Reconquest of the Balkans a lot of Muslims got ejected AND slaughter in the 18th and 19th centuries with the Yugoslavia breakup the last echoes.  

The Western World only cared in anyway if Christians / Westerns were being killed by those who were not.  The response then was to use it as an excuse for colonial expansion, all to bring "civilization" to the world.

Bottom line is up until after WW2 the "world" just didn't care and only then because stuff that hadn't been seen since the 30 years war happened in "Europe"; see exception of ejecting the Turks.

[Walter]

I think that, like everyone else, the Dutch don't care about it, but see it as a good excuse (which is not the case as no one cares) to justify any attacks.

[damocles]

There is this Mike.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f6a_1258939901

Nobody cared about the brown skins?

It was important enough to cause a political mess. 

[ctwaterman]

Ok On the clearing of Mine Fields.


If the New Swiss left extensive mine fields you will be months if not year clearing them.  I am already planning more Mine Sweepers and Improvements to existing methods to get rid of the two very extensive mine fields currently in the Rift.  I expect it to take until at least 1922 before they are both completely cleared.

As an example of Economic Warfare it usually take 3x to 5x time and money to clear a minefield as to lay it.

So New Zion has used a dozen ships for 3 months to lay the northern Rift.  It will take me 3 dozen ships and 10 months to sweep it and probably a few lost ships as well.

[miketr]

There is this Mike.

Nobody cared about the brown skins?

It was important enough to cause a political mess. 

Note the following in the title...  "No-one was ever held to account"

You are confusing noise and action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surafend_affair

A tongue lashing and paying a few hundred pounds years later hardly qualifies as much of a response. 

Yes I standard by my statement that European nations aren't going to take substantive actions over the deaths of civilians in what are viewed as colonial wars, unless the civilians are their own.  Other wise the MANY things would have played out very differently.

Michael

[Ithekro]

Considering the theory of Eugenics was popular at the time...Europeans would quite blatantly not care what happened to an "inferior" race in the mist of a war.  It would take wide spread knowledge and horror via both a large number of soldiers and civilians witnessing the accounts, and visual media to bring such events home for all to see to change this view.  While such incidents might generate political troubles here and there, most where just basically that...political troubles....noise that will be mostly forgotten by any not directly involved within five years.

And quite frankly....that has not happened yet in Navalism.

The main difference in Navalism from the Real World is that the World of Navalism is not entirely dominated by Europeans.  There are pockets of major powers that are not European, and some are taken seriously (unlike say Japan in the late 19th century and early 20th century before they defeated Russia).