Ship Design Thread

[snip]

Here is a place to begin spitballing designs for peer review. As the governing rules have not been realized at this time, feel free to use the traditional Navalism design guidelines. I have included a few general ideas of some relevant changes below. At such a time we have a ruleset posted, I will make a more formal sub-forum for ships and lock this thread.

--The Sim is currently expected to have turn one be 1910/H1.
--Engine year is now tied to laydown or appropriate refit year.
--Fire control now exists earlier and the necessary Misc weight allocation has changed.
--Slipways and Drydocks now exist in customizable lengths.

[Darman]

Tug Class A, Swedish Empire Tugboat laid down 1890

Displacement:
   209 t light; 214 t standard; 262 t normal; 300 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (92.19 ft / 92.19 ft) x 22.15 ft x (13.12 / 14.22 ft)
   (28.10 m / 28.10 m) x 6.75 m  x (4.00 / 4.33 m)

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 540 ihp / 403 Kw = 13.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 86 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   32 - 42

Cost:
   £0.022 million / $0.088 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 105 tons, 40.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 69 tons, 26.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 53 tons, 20.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 13.4 %
      - Hull above water: 15 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     145 lbs / 66 Kg = 1.3 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.342 / 0.361
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.16 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 9.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m,  5.50 ft / 1.68 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  5.50 ft / 1.68 m,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m,  7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:      6.07 ft / 1.85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 136.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 41.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,214 Square feet or 113 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 149 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.79
      - Longitudinal: 8.76
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

35t misc weight for various winches, bumpers, flotation devices, and other paraphernalia required by tugboats. 
Given speed is 13kts, but the actual max and cruising speed is 10kts, with a range much lower as well.  I figured that a tugboat needed to have an overpowered engine. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.342 / 0.361
   
35t misc weight for various winches, bumpers, flotation devices, and other paraphernalia required by tugboats. 
Given speed is 13kts, but the actual max and cruising speed is 10kts, with a range much lower as well.  I figured that a tugboat needed to have an overpowered engine.

Not sure why you're building tugs, but the BC is below the minimum allowed. You also have a 0.79 cross-sectional hull, which is rarely relevant, but for something meant to push/pull things around it might be. I would think a 4:1 length and 0.7 BC with less draft would give a very maneuverable, but beefy little tug.
I think on the engines what matters is how much HP it takes to move the Tug + Vessel at 3+kts (to overcome currents/eddies)

If you go with a 0.7BC and 10kt engines, you

[Walter]

I see you intend to use the truly-crappy-can't-do-s#!t-with-it sailing rules with its restrictive speed. According to that Rule, Sedov can only go 12.6 knots while in reality it can go 18 knots under sail which is quite close to its hull speed of 18.9 knots (using its 356'8" hull length).

Looking at my somewhat Sedov Clone, 2/3 of the hull speed would be 12.07 knots and require 516.72 tons. Using the rule I use for my sailing ship, I get 517.69 tons... so both rules are pretty much the same when it comes to weight, but where the rule you use hits its limits with the 12.07 knots, the rule I use allows me to push the speed further up to the 18 knots of the Sedov.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I see you intend to use the truly-crappy-can't-do-s#!t-with-it sailing rules with its restrictive speed. According to that Rule, Sedov can only go 12.6 knots while in reality it can go 18 knots under sail which is quite close to its hull speed of 18.9 knots (using its 356'8" hull length).

Looking at my somewhat Sedov Clone, 2/3 of the hull speed would be 12.07 knots and require 516.72 tons. Using the rule I use for my sailing ship, I get 517.69 tons... so both rules are pretty much the same when it comes to weight, but where the rule you use hits its limits with the 12.07 knots, the rule I use allows me to push the speed further up to the 18 knots of the Sedov.

I dug up an old sailing frigate I had made. Heck I bet you posted your version of the rules when I put a version of it down for Italian builds.
I may well go look at that for this iteration, after all I don't think ANY sailing rules will be "official" :)

[Walter]

Heck I bet you posted your version of the rules when I put a version of it down for Italian builds.

If I had not posted the Zheng He about 5 months (which was simmed using the same rule I used for the Ye Ying) before I posted the Ye Ying, then I would say "Yes, I dug up the other sailing rule we used with a different N version than the sailing rule you dug up." :)

I may well go look at that for this iteration, after all I don't think ANY sailing rules will be "official" :)

Nothing official indeed, but to me that 2/3 limit is a bother to get to proper given sailing speeds even if it is only for a number of ships. Also you only have the option of either 1/2 or 2/3 of the hull speed with that rule so it is not really flexible.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I think I posted an Italian training vessel which was to be ship rigged, and I think in one of your responses you included a copy of what you're using. So I may go look at that and try an alternate version of the Parthian Armored Frigate.

Heck I bet you posted your version of the rules when I put a version of it down for Italian builds.

If I had not posted the Zheng He about 5 months (which was simmed using the same rule I used for the Ye Ying) before I posted the Ye Ying, then I would say "Yes, I dug up the other sailing rule we used with a different N version than the sailing rule you dug up." :)

I may well go look at that for this iteration, after all I don't think ANY sailing rules will be "official" :)

Nothing official indeed, but to me that 2/3 limit is a bother to get to proper given sailing speeds even if it is only for a number of ships. Also you only have the option of either 1/2 or 2/3 of the hull speed with that rule so it is not really flexible.

[snip]

Just going to drop this here...

Emperor Trajan VIII, Roman Imperial Republic Battleship laid down 1905

Displacement:
   15,500 t light; 16,451 t standard; 17,434 t normal; 18,220 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (459.32 ft / 459.32 ft) x 82.02 ft x (24.61 / 25.55 ft)
   (140.00 m / 140.00 m) x 25.00 m  x (7.50 / 7.79 m)

Armament:
      6 - 13.39" / 340 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1,157.43lbs / 525.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      16 - 5.51" / 140 mm 45.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 350 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 8,461 lbs / 3,838 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   298.56 ft / 91.00 m   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   160.73 ft / 48.99 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   4.72" / 120 mm   298.56 ft / 91.00 m   9.02 ft / 2.75 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   7.09" / 180 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   4.72" / 120 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines and steam turbines
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 16,000 ihp / 11,936 Kw = 18.17 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,769 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   758 - 986

Cost:
   £1.419 million / $5.676 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,282 tons, 7.4 %
      - Guns: 1,282 tons, 7.4 %
   Armour: 6,811 tons, 39.1 %
      - Belts: 3,665 tons, 21.0 %
      - Armament: 1,602 tons, 9.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,401 tons, 8.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 143 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,676 tons, 9.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,516 tons, 31.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,934 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 215 tons, 1.2 %
      - Hull below water: 25 tons
      - Hull above water: 60 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 130 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30,254 lbs / 13,723 Kg = 25.2 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
   Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 13.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.93

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.658 / 0.662
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.60 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  20.51 ft / 6.25 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  20.51 ft / 6.25 m,  20.51 ft / 6.25 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  20.51 ft / 6.25 m,  20.51 ft / 6.25 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.22 ft / 5.86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,080 Square feet or 2,702 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 727 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.22
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Walter]

I would assume that with the way it is simmed, all main guns are on the same level and nothing is on the lowered quarterdeck, right?

[snip]

That is the intent yes.

[The Rock Doctor]

Notional Union Ship-of-the-Line Evolution

1891 Design:  2x2 24cm, 6x1 20cm; 10,500 t; 17 knots.

--Given the primary operating environment is the Baltic, which might be foggy, stormy, and/or dark, the Union is an early adopter of the mixed main battery.  Ships are built to 1.01 hull strength so that they can tolerate ice a bit better.

1897 Design:  2x2 28cm, 4x2 20cm; 13,800 t; 18 knots.

--The follow-up upsizes the main guns and adjusts the intermediate battery to four turreted 20cm in a hexagon layout. 

1902 Design:  2x2 28cm, 4x2 20 cm; 15,200 t; 19 knots.

--Incremental improvements, jumping to 45cal guns in all batteries and more speed.

1905 Design:  6x2 28cm; 18,800 t; 20 knots.

--Basically a historical Nassau-class. Compared to the preceding class, the main difference is the intermediate battery replaced with more 28cm twins, with a larger hull to accommodate it.  Torpedo bulkheads and oil-spray makes an appearance as well.

1908 Design:  4x3 28cm; 20,200 t; 23 knots.

--The hexagonal arrangement is replaced with triples fore/aft and en-echelon upon a beamy hull.  Speed is ramped up to allow some dictation of battle range if operating alone.

[Walter]

Basically a historical Nassau-class. Compared to the preceding class, the main difference is the intermediate battery replaced with more 28cm twins, with a larger hull to accommodate it.  Torpedo bulkheads and oil-spray makes an appearance as well.

Something I missed when you initially posted this... Torpedo bulkheads require the 1905 tech which would be available in 1907 and not in 1905.

[The Rock Doctor]

Oh right.  I'll edit later today.

EDIT:  And done.

[Kaiser Kirk]

One of the interesting things in this iteration- to me- is that each player is designing the first 20 years in essentially isolation.
I still haven't gone class by class through folks Encyclopedias yet, but I know I was not thrilled to find my newest ACR class wasn't 'better' than Jefgte's latest...barely competitive I'd say :)

Rocky's specs for the last two vessels call to mind the Austrian-Hungarian fleet to me :)

[AnchorSteam]

1902 Design:  2x2 28cm, 4x2 20 cm; 15,200 t; 19 knots.
......

Interesting.
Lets take that to 1907.
Query; would super-firing turrets and in increase to 18,000 tons with a concurrent increase in machinery give you a ship with a speed of about 25 knots?