Like I said I havnt been paying as much atention to torpedo armed ships as I aparently should have but ill goahead and post some demoships in here

this one is admitedly crapy but that was sort of the point, I just wanted to get the torps on some sort of hull

Craptastic, Testistan Torpedo test ship laid down 1950

Displacement:
   686 t light; 701 t standard; 737 t normal; 765 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (150.00 ft / 150.00 ft) x 25.00 ft x (12.50 / 12.88 ft)
   (45.72 m / 45.72 m) x 7.62 m  x (3.81 / 3.93 m)

Armament:
      Main Torpedoes
      4 - 17.0" / 432 mm, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m torpedoes - 0.705 t each, 2.820 t total
   In 4 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      4 - 17.0" / 432 mm, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m torpedoes - 0.705 t each, 2.820 t total
   submerged bow & stern tubes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,257 ihp / 3,922 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 64 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   69 - 91

Cost:
   £0.526 million / $2.105 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 9 tons, 1.2 %
      - Weapons: 9 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 309 tons, 42.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 352 tons, 47.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 50 tons, 6.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 2.2 %
      - Hull below water: 8 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 8 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     361 lbs / 164 Kg = 3.3 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.44
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 24 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 74 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Average freeboard:      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 147.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 54.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,617 Square feet or 243 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 375 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.91
      - Longitudinal: 7.59
      - Overall: 2.20
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

8 tons misc weight (2 tons per torpedo tube represents 2 reloads)

Would probably be better if you'd stuck to 1900 or 1901 or so...
*runs away from the Moderator's Death Ray* ;D

Erm...
How come two sets of torpedos, 2.82 tons each (makes 5.64 tons total), weight 9 tons?!?

Here's a current example:

USS Bainbridge, United States Torpedo boat destroyer laid down 1900

Displacement:
   496 t light; 512 t standard; 571 t normal; 617 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (262.82 ft / 260.00 ft) x 24.50 ft x (8.25 / 8.67 ft)
   (80.11 m / 79.25 m) x 7.47 m  x (2.51 / 2.64 m)

Armament:
      3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
      2 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 51 lbs / 23 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.596 t each, 1.193 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      2 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.596 t each, 1.193 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,531 ihp / 7,110 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 170nm at 27.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 105 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   57 - 75

Cost:
   £0.069 million / $0.274 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 15 tons, 2.7 %
      - Guns: 11 tons, 2.0 %
      - Weapons: 4 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 344 tons, 60.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 127 tons, 22.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 74 tons, 13.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 1.8 %
      - Above deck: 10 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     107 lbs / 49 Kg = 7.9 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.391
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.12 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 85
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  13.75 ft / 4.19 m
      - Forward deck:   10.00 %,  13.75 ft / 4.19 m,  13.75 ft / 4.19 m
      - Aft deck:   55.00 %,  6.75 ft / 2.06 m,  6.75 ft / 2.06 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  6.75 ft / 2.06 m,  6.75 ft / 2.06 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.03 ft / 2.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 199.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 78.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,869 Square feet or 359 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 19 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 97 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.98
      - Overall: 0.53
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Already posted version has: On-deck weight accounts for 2 centerline rotatable 18" 5m wet heater torpedo tubes and 2 deck mounted fixed 18" 5m wet heater torpedo tubes.]

Above-deck miscellaneous weight allows for a short-range wireless installation.

Trials speed = 29.77 knots
Cruise range at 12 knots is 1500 nm, at 10 knots 2300 nm.

UHM Handeling equipment? the bainbridge thing is showing 4 tons when it should only be 2.286, either way it isnt enough for reloads though.

Quote from: Nobody on March 08, 2013, 08:28:18 AM
Erm...
How come two sets of torpedos, 2.82 tons each (makes 5.64 tons total), weight 9 tons?!?

Quote from: Tanthalas on March 08, 2013, 08:44:58 AM
UHM Handeling equipment? the bainbridge thing is showing 4 tons when it should only be 2.286, either way it isnt enough for reloads though.

Quote from: Nobody on March 08, 2013, 08:28:18 AM
Erm...
How come two sets of torpedos, 2.82 tons each (makes 5.64 tons total), weight 9 tons?!?

Probably handling/maintenance equipment, sights, crew, etc.

Thats what I always figured it was, the more tubes you have the more "stuff" it requires.  Works that way for personal firearms anyway, one M-16 its ammo and its cleaning kit isnt all that heavy but start totaling up a company load and you go DAMN thats alot of stuff.

Quote from: KWorld on March 08, 2013, 08:50:59 AM

Quote from: Tanthalas on March 08, 2013, 08:44:58 AM
UHM Handeling equipment? the bainbridge thing is showing 4 tons when it should only be 2.286, either way it isnt enough for reloads though.

Quote from: Nobody on March 08, 2013, 08:28:18 AM
Erm...
How come two sets of torpedos, 2.82 tons each (makes 5.64 tons total), weight 9 tons?!?

Probably handling/maintenance equipment, sights, crew, etc.

What we figured out back during 4.5 was that SS3 has a nasty tendency to shit the proverbial bed when it comes to torp. Misc weight means it is the same for all, not at the whims of a program.

SS3b3 doesn't subtract the weight of torps (or mines, or ASW weapons) from the ship until you do one of two things: reload the ship from a save file, or (I discovered this yesterday) add or delete on-deck miscellaneous weight (this worked with the Bainbridge class above, it might or might not work with a ship with submerged torpedo tubes, that I didn't check).  If you do one of those things, though, it does subtract the weight, it will check the deckspace, and it will include the data in the text blocks.

My opinion: I'm certainly willing to use the torp functions, they will be useful as we get to periods where more torps are carried.  Solving the problem of the program not subtracting the weight is pretty easy: if all ships put into a country's encyclopedia for actual use (as opposed to design studies) include the ship file, a quick load of the file into SS3b3 will show if there's too much weight in torps.

So, any changes in what we need to be doing here?  Back in 4.5 we had a poll, I'm good with going in a different direction than what we concluded in that poll but if we double-weight torps (ie, have them in the design AND in misc. weight), we will likely see some ships get a little bit heavier.

Misc weight only

You pays your money you takes your chances... You can either be lazy and just use misc weight, Or you can be OCD about it (like me) and use both if you want.  Ofcourse if you use just misc weight you should be very sure you list them since that route is so open to abuse.

Quote from: snip on March 27, 2013, 10:39:56 PM
Misc weight only

Guys, I'd like to re-open this discussion.


Going forward, I propose:

A - That we use the torp & mine, etc, functions.  That will clean up the reports, putting the weapons where they should be, etc.
B - To ensure nothing "fishy" is going on, that we post the SS3 .sship file in the encyclopedia.  It's an easy check (load the file into SS3 and see that the overall or composite strength doesn't drop below minimums) to see that everything's per the rules.

reSS the AT3 class - originaly, this class carry 50 minen (25t) in misc weight.

AT3, France AT3 laid down 1900

Displacement:
   4 200 t light; 4 324 t standard; 4 930 t normal; 5 414 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393.50 ft / 388.50 ft) x 48.55 ft x (16.48 / 17.76 ft)
   (119.94 m / 118.41 m) x 14.80 m  x (5.02 / 5.41 m)

Armament:
      3 - 5.50" / 140 mm 45.0 cal guns - 83.91lbs / 38.06kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1900 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 - 3.95" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 31.09lbs / 14.10kg shells, 130 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      4 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 76.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 314 lbs / 142 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.15 ft / 4.92 m torpedoes - 0.570 t each, 1.140 t total
   submerged bow & stern tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.15 ft / 4.92 m torpedoes - 0.570 t each, 1.140 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
      Mines
      50 - 1 120.00 lbs / 508.02 kg mines - 25.000 t total
   in Above water - Stern racks/rails

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.99" / 25 mm         -         0.99" / 25 mm
   2nd:   0.40" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.40" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17 750 ihp / 13 241 Kw = 22.90 kts
   Range 6 700nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 089 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   293 - 382

Cost:
   £0.561 million / $2.245 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 113 tons, 2.3 %
      - Guns: 77 tons, 1.6 %
      - Weapons: 36 tons, 0.7 %
   Armour: 15 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armament: 15 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2 767 tons, 56.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 277 tons, 25.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 729 tons, 14.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 0.6 %
      - Hull below water: 5 tons
      - Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1 862 lbs / 844 Kg = 22.4 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.92
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 9.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.555 / 0.566
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  14.78 ft / 4.50 m,  12.78 ft / 3.90 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.78 ft / 3.90 m,  11.80 ft / 3.60 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  11.80 ft / 3.60 m,  11.80 ft / 3.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  11.80 ft / 3.60 m,  11.80 ft / 3.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 13 225 Square feet or 1 229 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 328 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.21
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc weight
5t for 8 torp
25t for Marconi

--

KW, That's OK for me

Jef