Comfortable enough for a king.  Well a king that wanted to fly anyway.

These people were not exactly very large.  Most are fairly thin and likely under 6 foot.  Weight and balance is a must of any aircraft, but these fragile things it is life.

Ahoj!
1 Borys = 2 early fliers
:)
Borys

Quote from: Desertfox on September 25, 2007, 12:01:13 PM

QuoteYa what i came up with was a 26 pound MG that someone built in 1907, and your right it was stupidly expensive for the time.  I was thinking more along the lines of striping a maxim of everything it didn't realy need and trying to mount one on an airplane ^.^.  It would have to be a 2 person plane though, and tbh none of my pics are of 2 person planes.  then there is the cooling problem... let me use a 1911 modle MG and it can work though(even though ill most likley still end up crashing the plane=P)

Aircraft have to be at least the 1915 level before they can mount a belt-fed .30 caliber gun... they are just too heavy. My M2 in Iraq weighed right at 100 lbs with a 100 round belt.

The Wright B could carry two people comfortably in 1908, it should be possible to replace one with a MG without a problem. If your interested in such a plane contact the nearest Swiss Embassy for further information...  

Uhm... yeah.
Wanna know what the recoil of a .30 caliber going wide open could do to that Wright B?
How's it going to be mounted? That's weight as well... a sturdy mount for the weapons in question will be about another 40 pounds. Remember, that .50 cal was stuck on a truck- I didn't have to consider weight. A tripod-mounted M2 machine gun is about 150 pounds- the size of an average man in 1908. That is, it's 150 pounds NOT BEING FIRED. The recoil of the weapon is tremendous to say the least- a recoil spring in an M2 can drive the guide rod THROUGH YOUR FLESH. It can litterally impale you by the force the tension spring provides.

In short, the aircraft you are speaking of would shatter from the force of recoil.

THEN, you have the preformance loss from the force of recoil. Yepo, that's right... the firing of the machine gun will SLOW YOU DOWN. As late as Korea, pilots firing 6x.50 cals could notice their F-86 SABER JET FIGHTERS loosing appreciable amounts of airspeed (somtimes as much as 50mph)! Whjat's gonna happen to your Wright B that can only make 50mph with a stiff tail wind? You're gonna stall out as soon as you start firing... you don't have NEARLY the power/weight that the Saber does, so even the .30 cals will have a telling effect on your airspeed.



Sorry, pre-1915 aircraft are just not powerful or strong enough to mount guns in a useful way.

Quote from: Borys on September 25, 2007, 11:56:59 AM
Ahoj!
To answer the OP - if you are thinking of a gun on a balsa&paper plane, do not take the gun weight in mind. But that you have to strenghten the construction of the contraption to fire it.

Borys

I already did that im using a Wright flyer III which originally would have had a 20 hp Water cooled engine and weight about 700 lbs otl.  I upgraded it to a 75 hp W pattern Air Cooled 3 cylinder and increased the weight of the plane to 900 lbs, much to my amazement not only will it still fly it is actually more trustworthy than the original.  I made a 45 minute flight last night in that aircraft which can according to X-Plane handle a 325 lbs load (this would include a pilot of 180 lbs leaving 145 lbs for whatever I wanted to put on it).  Which is why I thought of mounting a MG or 2 on it? However I wanted to see if this would be allowable before I went to the work in X-plane to actually do it. As I will have to do allot of calculations to figure out what would be relatively easy if I had the actual plane.

Ahoj!
Any chance that the engines produce more output per lb than those of 100 hundered years?
Borys

Im not sure i have to trust the X-plane physics engine on that one.   all i can do is set the year, and adjust a few variables.  Horsepower seems to determine weight, I left engine year alone so it is set at 1905 on the plane.  The big change was from Water cooling to Air Cooling, this cut the weight of the engine almost in half.  so mind you my 75 horse weighs only slightly more than the original 20 horse.

Well you have enough air to keep the engine cool?

I installed full instrumentation on it to see just that, since once I get in the air I don't have to run at full throttle to maintain my airspeed, I think it would be fine.  I held around 160 deg. Fahrenheit. For 30 minutes with one spike to 180 deg (I was testing stall speed) so as long as I can hold 35-40 mph I think it would be fine.

Also keep in mind this is an Experimental aircraft, I fully expect to crash it before i finish testing (im already down to one from the 2 i recived from unnamed sources)

If recoil is such a problem, kindly explain how an Eindeckerd could carry 2 MGs, or how a 37mm cannon was mounted on a Voisan. And these are weaker planes than a Wright B. Sure you can't mount a 50cal, but a 30cal should be possible.

Ahoj!
I am at a loss - Tanthlass, are you actually flying on a balsa&paper contraption, or is this some sort of computer simulation?

Borys

Quote from: Desertfox on September 25, 2007, 12:49:05 PM
If recoil is such a problem, kindly explain how an Eindeckerd could carry 2 MGs, or how a 37mm cannon was mounted on a Voisan. And these are weaker planes than a Wright B. Sure you can't mount a 50cal, but a 30cal should be possible.

Idk im the one putting the idea forward remember, I think my modified Wright could handle a single 7.62 mm machine gun (that's .308 Winchester for anyone that doesn't know) but mostly even if I decide to have it fail miserably I just think it would be fun to try and strafe with it.  I know how inherently unstable these aircraft are, they really aren't much good for dog fighting (nasty tendency to fall out of the sky if you turn to fast) However I do think they could be used as nuisance raiders and for anti airship purposes.  Oh and btw with the 75 horse they can get to 57 mph but you really don't want to go there, at 56 they become almost uncontrollable, and well at 57 I fell out of the sky (over corrected right and well that was it deadly slip).

Quote from: Borys on September 25, 2007, 01:13:39 PM
Ahoj!
I am at a loss - Tanthlass, are you actually flying on a balsa&paper contraption, or is this some sort of computer simulation?

Borys

It's a software simulation; it's the same program that was used to build the replica of the Wright flyer they flew on the anniversary.  X-plane is also approved by the FAA for use as a primary trainer, so its physics engine is as good as it can get, im not an aeronautical engineer, so some things I just have to trust the program(im a student in computer eng.).  In all honesty it will take recoil and all that into effect and tell me if it would work or not aka if I crash it didn't work...

If you guys want ill sim any aircraft you want to use.  I have a fairly extensive library of them already, everything from the Wright Flyer III, to the F-22 Raptor.  Ill go sim the wright with a MG right now if you want and tell you if it falls out of the sky LOL

7,62mm - that is 3,0 or 3,03

For some reason the Russians called their 7,62 calibre the "three tenths".

Wouldn't 3,08 be the 7,92mm Mauser?
Borys

3.08 Winchester is the 7.62 nato cartrige, trust me it is in my hornady book (reloading manual) and i curently own a .308 Winchester

QuoteFor some reason the Russians called their 7,62 calibre the "three tenths".

I don't know... maybe it has something to do with the fact that 7.62mm is in fact three tenths of an inch... :)

You know, all this weapons on planes business so early makes me wonder... When will we have air to air missiles on our planes? 1916? When will we have jet engines? 1929?