The casualty tracker (based on given numbers):
Italy vs New Zion: 20,000-21,500
Also, a good thing for Italy that they did not sign the Vienna Convention.
*waits eagerly for the next "Empire of Italia Diplomatic Standings" post* :)
Extrapolate those and the air losses out to six months, and we might find January 1920 consists of old women swinging their handbags at each other.
... in which case the war might last forever. Every time one granny is knocked out, another will have regained consciousness and will continue to wield her handbag until she's knocked out again.
So aircraft have sunk a ship in harbor...without torpedoes even. Have to admit I'm surprised by how effective the Zionite resistance has been considering they're not fully mobilized yet and it's usually divisions versus corps. How many men are in a Zion Division anyway? Aircraft attrition rates suck so far. I'm impressed by the effectiveness of ground fire to take out aircraft so far. All interesting stuff.
I would expect that a Zionite Division is half a Zionite Corps. 1 Corps mobilized = 50,000 men. 1/2 Corps mobilized = 25,000 men.
The Zionites benefit greatly from being on the defensive, in rough terrain. They also got very lucky with one of the dice roll - though, to be fair, the Italians aso got lucky with one of the battle dice rolls.
May be too soon to draw conclusions from aircraft ops. I may adjust their effectiveness, and that of ground fire, if it seems too great or low.
Quote from: Walter on June 20, 2010, 09:51:56 AM
I would expect that a Zionite Division is half a Zionite Corps. 1 Corps mobilized = 50,000 men. 1/2 Corps mobilized = 25,000 men.
I always figured a division as 1/4th a Corp, 12500 men. 1 Corps (50,000) = 4 Div (12,500), 1 Div (12,500) = 4 Brig (3,125).
OOC.
Somebody is not using his amphibious forces right.
Let me show you what I mean. Note the underlined.
QuoteSecond Rift War: July 1-15, 1919
Northern Front
Zionite forces are arrayed across their northern border awaiting an Italian assault; the Italians do not disappoint. Three legions (XXII, XVII, and a third unidentified) punch southeast along the coastal plains for Eliat, with a regiment of armored cars patrolling their western flank and securing supply routes.
The Zionite 1st Division establishes defensive positions around Eilat and is subjected to intense artillery bombardment. Both nation's air forces attempt to throw the odds in their favor, though the Zionites are more successful on account of numbers. Approximately 25 Italian and Zionite fighters are lost, as are 25 Zionite ground attack aircraft (the latter mostly due to Italian ground fire as the Zionites press home their attacks).
On July 15, Eilat is still holding, completely enveloped by two Italian legions with a third in reserve (though its artillery is contributing to the siege. Italian casualties are about 7,000, versus 5,500 for the Zionites. Italian artillery is also causing Zionite civilian casualties.
Italian scout aircraft detect Zionite troops along a line between the towns of Inda Silase and Adwa, west of Eliat, but can not penetrate further south on account of Zionite fighter coverage.
Italian heavy bombers out of Aseb raid Eliat, losing four aircraft to enemy fire and accidents while successfully sinking the destroyer Yaffo at its moorings. Harbour facilities take minor damage, and a few bombs fall into nearby residential districts.
1. Now the Italians have snaked their way along the coast overland and managed to encircle Eilat and besiege it but they left a hostile enemy in the mountains to the northwest and behind them. NZ raiders are going to eat their supply lines alive. If there is one thing a siege is, it is supply intensive. That is bad terrain for such extended supply lines and that kind of warfare. It gives a free defender to many options
2. It would be a lot harder for a defense to hold against amphibious assaults combined with the overland drive. Landings south of Eilat with a over the beach supplied force in place+ the overland assault splits the defense and catches them in a vise. Eilat falls to a coup de main and you have a northern base from which you chase the NZs into the central hills.
Let"s look at the naval war. Again note the underlined
QuoteCentral Front
Italian heavy bombers out of Dire Dawa strike at Tel Aviv, losing three aircraft to enemy fire and accidents while escorting fighters and Zionite defenders lose ten and seven aircraft respectively - those who do manage to ditch their aircraft are retrieved by Zionite naval forces. Damage to Tel Aviv includes a destroyed bunkerage fuel tank, damage to the Type 1 drydock (25% of cost to repair), and a near miss that causes splinter damage to a Kufrah class coastal defence battleship. Some bombs fall into neighbouring residential districts.
On July 3, Zionite naval aircraft catch an Italian submarine on the surface, off Tel Aviv. The submarine is successfully strafed and bombs fall around her as she dives.
On July 5, a Zionite trawler participating in laying the northern Rift mine barrage is damaged by two Italian aircraft. The trawler is subsequently abandoned by her crew and burns out over night. Laying of the two barrages continues, with Zionite destroyers supplementing the civilian craft doing much of the work. They and the Italian aircraft trade fire, costing three Italian aircraft versus no other damage to Zionite ships.
On July 9, Zionite aerial patrols spot an Italian convoy moving north in the Rift Sea, east of Atlit. The next day, this force - which includes several large cruisers and a number of escorts - anchors offshore, forty miles northeast of Atlit. Troops are landed against essentially no resistence, and what will be later identified as Italian marines spend four days scouring the area, tearing up or otherwise destroying infrastructure such as railways, roads, piers, boats, telephone and electrical lines. Local officials are advised that they may be entitled to seek compensation for personal losses post-war.
On July 13, a Zionite submarine arrives on the scene and attacks. The Italian heavy cruiser Dacius is the primary target - both weapons run true, but one detonates short of the target. The other strikes home amidships, causing her to list. The submarine's other two torpedoes are aimed at an alert destroyer, which is not struck and spends the next several hours suppressing the submarine. By the morning of the 14th, the Italians have loaded up their troops and are retiring south, apparently with the damaged cruiser in the formation.
Italian blimps and scout aircraft and Zionite scout aircraft are up and patrolling over the North Rift Sea, but do not engage each other.
1. What we learn here is that the Italians attempt to use air power to attack while the NZers use it to guide other forces onto the attack. Neither side shows a superiority in night fighting tactics yet. Luck seems to be with the NZers as well. They should not have penetrated an alert ASW screen that quickly and easily, not with their tech and equipment.
2. I don't know what the marines thought they were doing, but a raid like that can be mounted with smaller forces and do as much damage. When you raid, suit the force to the objective. Conservation principle applies. The raid should also support another operation, not be an end to itself. Consider what it means to an enemy who has to divert troops from the front to protect an open sea flank? It also forces his navy out to fight where you can get at them and destroy them instead of exposing your own forces to a brown water ambush as seen here.
QuoteSouthern Front
Two Italian corps (X, XVIII) cross the border west of Lake Victoria and encounters Zionite 12th Division, which conducts a spirited fighting withdrawal that costs 4,000 Italian casualties versus three thousand Zionite casualties. On the 8th, 12th Division passes through the lines of Zionite 13th Division, which is to hold up the Italians further.
[/u]
However, the Italian attack on July 10th benefits from effective air support and scouting (no Zionite aircraft being observed over the front) and catches 13th Division at a gap between brigades. Part of the division is surrounded and routed, while two unengaged brigades fall back in confusion. Italian casualties total 9,000, versus 13,000 Zionite, approximately half of whom are taken prisoner. By July 15, the Italians have advanced as far as the north end of Lake Edward to the west, and have the outskirts of Kampala in artillery range in the east.
Italian blimps and scout aircraft are patrolling over the South Rift Sea.
1. What is missing here? Sure here the Italians are doing better and advancing in good order against moderate opposition, but what an opportunity! The open terrain north of Lake Victoria is well watered and hilly but not excessively hilly. It will easily support fast marching light infantry and horse cavalry. The only thing in the actual way is the stupid lake. There is a hint there.......
2. Most hook envelopments start when an enemy puts himself in a position where he thinks he is safe because of impassable terrain, but a shrewd operator sees the strait jacket so sewn as the limit on the enemy and not on himself.
Guagamella and Crecy apply. Even a little exercise like Leuthen applies. Use the enemy position anchor as the hammer to beat him to death with and remember, "Water is not a barrier or an obstacle: its an opportunity, and a highway to victory."
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6786/riftwarcampaignmap2.th.jpg) (http://img149.imageshack.us/i/riftwarcampaignmap2.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Stop! Don't tell them how to end the war quicker! :D
QuoteI always figured a division as 1/4th a Corp, 12500 men. 1 Corps (50,000) = 4 Div (12,500), 1 Div (12,500) = 4 Brig (3,125).
From the rules:
QuoteFor book keeping purposes, a corps may be divided into divisions or brigades. Divisions are equal to one half of a corps. Brigades are equal to one tenth of a corps.
In reality it really varies how many divisions go in a Corps if we stick to the 50,000 men figure.
A few figures from the WW1 data book's TOEs:
Belgian Infantry Division (1914): 31,196 officers and men
Belgian Cavalry Division (1914): 7,169 officers and men
French Infantry Division (1914): c.15,000 officers and men
French Cavalry Division (1914): c.4,500 officers and men
Rumanian Infantry Division (1916): c.20,000 officers and men
Rumanian Cavalry Division (1916): 5,280 officers and men
QuoteStop! Don't tell them how to end the war quicker!
Yes, we need to keep borys and his Blood God happy. ;D
Ahoj!
The 1914 Belgian Division actually was a mini-Corps, as the King was reforming the army on the quiet, and was trying to hide from parliament the fact that he was aiming at six corps.
http://marksrussianmilitaryhistory.info/BELG14.html
It is possible that the figure of 30K includes 3rd line Battalions, which would serve as fortress garrisons.
Borys
Okay, looking at the book, it does not indicate that. I did miss the "Figures for the four-brigade 4th Division). Also looked wrong. The Belgian Cavalry bit is actually for the Austria-Hungary Cavalry Divisions. The Belgian one is not given.
Unfortuantely the Terrain in the South around Lake Viktoria is from my Information Mostly Nasty Rain Forest ... and the Open Terrain north of that is several hundred Kilometers from where I am currently located.
New Zion has over 1000 Km of Coast Line. ;)
The Sheer Size of the Area meant this was never going to be a short war...
Why Rocky? Why? Why is the main proponent of airpower the only one that has to suffer losses to ships from the air? Why? Sorry guys, but the AA armament on Swiss/Zionite ships just got a whole lot heavier.
I am surprised the Italians did as well as they did in the South. That area is very nasty jungle. I didn't even expect any fighting to be going there.
Why? Well, the Italians gave orders to use aircraft against naval targets, and Zion didn't. Weight of numbers ensured that something was going to get hit. However, a civilian trawler, carrying mines, and a small, stationary, obsolete destroyer are hardly cause for a major freak-out by Zionite authorities.
Jungle's nasty in the south, but not much different than the jungle the Italians came from.
Just commenting on the irony. The thing is everyone else will suddenly start packing WWII AA suites. Even when I'm the only one that really knows what happened. It does serve the captain right for being stuck in the harbor instead of at sea where he was supposed to be.
I see, I see. You may be right about the international trend.
On the other hand - your ships aren't always going to be at sea. They gotta come back and replenish every once in a while.
If anyone should be fitting heavy AA it's either DKB or GC (From being attacked by aircraft), MK or NS/NS (Big on aircraft, would presume big on not getting attacked by aircraft).
Quote from: ctwaterman on June 20, 2010, 01:44:52 PM
Unfortuantely the Terrain in the South around Lake Viktoria is from my Information Mostly Nasty Rain Forest ... and the Open Terrain north of that is several hundred Kilometers from where I am currently located.
New Zion has over 1000 Km of Coast Line. ;)
The Sheer Size of the Area meant this was never going to be a short war...
This is what I have about your battle-space geography and climate
Quote]Kenya -- Geography
Area
The total area of Kenya is 224,960 square miles; almost 5,200 sq. miles of this total takes the form of fresh water, mainly in Lake Rudolf.
Location
Kenya is positioned on the equator on Africa's east coast. Its northernmost and southernmost points are approximately equidistant--a little over 40 north and south of the equator. Kenya shares borders with five other countries. The perimeter of Kenya's international land borders is 3,446 km., including borders with Sudan (306 km), Ethiopia (779 km), Somalia (682 km),
Tanzania (769 km), and Uganda (772 km). Kenya's eastern and northern neighbors are Somalia and Ethiopia. To the northwest lies the Sudan. Many inhabitants of the Sudan's border region are in fact ethnically related to Kenya `s peoples. To the west lies Uganda and to the south, Tanzania, both nations that share with Kenya a history of British colonial rule.
Geographical Regions
The country is commonly divided into seven major geographic regions, as follows.
The Coastal Region extends some 250 miles from the southern border where Kenya meets Tanzania, to the border with Somalia in the north. This region is characterized by a variety of geographical features, a variety that is particularly pronounced as one travels south or north. The southern shoreline consists largely of stretches of coral rock and sand interrupted by bays, inlets, and branched creeks. Following the coast is a barrier reef that is broken only rarely. Traveling inland from the coast, one encounters a narrow plain, and later a low plateau area reaching an elevation of about 500 feet, and, finally, a line of discontinuous ridges. The principal geographic feature of the northern part of the region is the Lamu Archipelago, which was formed when a rise in the ocean level inundated coastal lands.
The southern coastal hinterland is a relatively featureless erosional plain broken in a few places by groups of small hills. The Tana Plains are mainly a depositional plain; equally featureless and deficient in rainfall, this region extends northward from the upper Coastal Region to the northern plains. The plain's eastern edge forms the border of Somalia (into which it actually extends). The western part of the plain ends with the elevated Eastern Plateau Region. The Tana River flows across the plain from the Kenyan Highlands into the Indian Ocean. The Eastern Plateau
Region consists of a belt of plains extending north- and southward to the eastern Kenya Highlands. Land elevations vary mainly between 1,000 and 3,000 feet above sea level.
The Northern Plain-lands Region stretches from the border with Uganda on the west to the Somalia border on the east. It is made up of a series of arid plains formed by erosion or by great outpourings of lava. The region includes Lake Rudolf and the Chalbi Desert. West of the lake the lands are quite arid, with an annual rainfall that averages under ten inches and that falls some years to an almost negligible level. East of Lake Rudolf lies the Chalbi Desert; still farther east are equally arid lands that ordinarily support only semi-desert vegetation.
The Kenya Highlands Region was known as the White Highlands during colonial times since the European population tended to concentrate there. The region consists of two major divisions, lying east and west of the Great Rift Valley that runs north-south. These regions are made up of a variety of geographical subdivisions whose origins are diverse. The entire area is characterized by significantly higher altitude, cooler temperatures, and, generally speaking, more plentiful precipitation than in other regions.
Rift Valley Region encompasses Eastern Africa's Rift Valley which was formed by an extended series of faulting and differential rock movements. The valley stretches from Kenya's Lake Rudolf area, running southward through the Kenya Highlands into Tanzania. Near Lake Rudolf, the valley floor tapers down to less than 1,500 feet above sea level, but southward it rises steadily to nearly 6,200 feet in its central section near Lake Naivasha. South of the lake, it drops off to about 2,000 feet at the Kenya-Tanzania border.
The Western Plateau Region forms part of the extensive basin around Lake Victoria. In Kenya the region consists mainly of faulted plateaus marked by escarpments that descend gently from the Kenya Highlands to the lakeshore. The region is divided by the Kano Rift Valley into northern and southern sub-regions with distinct geographical features.[1]
Climate
Given that Kenya straddles the equator, its terrain is highly diversified with climatic conditions ranging from moist to arid. In this part of Africa, seasons are distinguished by duration of rainfall rather than by changes in temperature. In the Western Plateau and the Highlands, rain falls in a single long season. East of the rift valley, there are two distinct seasons: a period of long rains from March to May and one of short rains from September to October. Rainfall is most plentiful in the Highlands and on the coast which receive an average of 101 cm. The Western Plateau receives over 178 cm annually. More than 70% of the country, however, is arid or semi-arid, receiving less than 51 cm per year. Rainfall is sporadic in the dry areas.
Variations in altitude are the major factor in temperature differences in the various parts of the country. The Highlands generally have a cool, bracing climate with a mean annual maximum of 26.10C (790F) and a mean annual minimum of 10C (50F). Nairobi, at an elevation of 1,670 meters (5,500 feet), has a mean annual temperature of 19C (67F). The nation's highest temperatures are found in the Northern Plain, where the mean maximum is 34C (93F) and temperatures often reach 43.3C (110F). Temperatures varies between 14C (57F) and 29C (84F) in the Eastern Plateau, and between 34C (93F) and 17.8C (64F) and 21.1C (70F) in the coastal areas. The hottest months fall between January and March; the coldest are June and July.[2]
Vegetation
Kenya's plant life is highly diverse, ranging from mangrove forests and coconut palms on the coast to Savannah grassland and woods to thick coniferous evergreen forests on the mountain slopes. On the western plateaus, low trees grow amid grass over 1.5 meters high; similar vegetation is found between 915 and 1,829 meters east and south of Mount Kenya and near the headwaters of the Tana and Athi rivers. On the northern and southern edges of the highlands, flat-topped trees are scattered through meter-high grass. [3]
Drainage System
The area's principal drainage system begins in the Kenya Highlands Region. Streams and rivers radiate from this region eastward toward the Indian Ocean, westward to Lake Victoria, and run northward to Lake Rudolf or disappear the arid terrain of northern Kenya. A secondary drainage system is formed by rivers in the southern highlands of Ethiopia, which extend into Kenya along the eastern part of their shared boundary. These rivers are seasonal. Those receiving sufficient rainwater to reach the sea all pass through Somalia. The two largest rivers--the only navigable ones--are the Tana and the Galana, which empty into the Indian Ocean. The Tana basin has an area of about 24,000 square miles and receives much of the flow from the Aberdare Range and Mount Kenya. The Galana River has its source in the southeastern Kenya Highlands and flows together with its tributaries into the Indian Ocean north of Malindi.
Several smaller rivers begin in the foothills of the eastern Kenya Highlands in the Tana River basin. The Lagh Thua and Mkondo Wa Kokani rivers disappear in the semi-arid region east of the highlands; only in times of heavy rainfall do their waters cross the area to empty into the Tana River. South of the Galana, the Goshi River runs about 130 miles, fifty miles of whose lower course has water in the dry season.
The western Kenya Highlands are drained by a number of rivers that empty into Lake Victoria. The largest of these are the Nzoia, about 160 miles long, and the Yala, with a length of about 110 miles. Yala Falls and Selby Falls (on a tributary of the Nzoia) have considerable potential for generating hydroelectric power. The Mara River, in the Mau Escarpment in the southwest highlands, flows southward for about 100 miles, enters Tanzania, and turns westward to flow for almost another 100 miles into Lake Victoria. The northern Kenya Highlands east of the Rift Valley are drained by small rivers that disappear in the arid land to the north and by the larger, eastward-flowing system of the Ewaso Ngiro, which has a drainage basin of approximately 22,000 square miles.[4]
[1] Kaplan, Irving & et.al. 1976. Area Handbook for Kenya, Second Ed., U.S. Government Printing Office: Washington, D.C. pp. 50-64.
[2] Kurian, George Thomas 1992. Encyclopedia of the Third World, fourth edition,
volume III, Facts on File: New York, N.Y., pp. 968-69.
[3] Uwechue, Raph (ed.) 1996. Africa Today, Third Edition, Africa Books Limited, p. 854.
[4] Kaplan, Irving & et.al. 1976. Area Handbook for Kenya, Second Ed., U.S. Government Printing Office: Washington, D.C. pp. 57-58.
Not as difficult a country as reported for infantry operations I think. Its not Nigeria or the Kongo.
We are not fighting in Kenya... yet.
The Southern Front is on the border between Uganda and Rwanda/Tanzania.
QuoteIf anyone should be fitting heavy AA it's either DKB or GC (From being attacked by aircraft), MK or NS/NS (Big on aircraft, would presume big on not getting attacked by aircraft).
I think you mean RRC. But, no. Not even the RRC heavily equips it's ships with AA weaponry.
Which gives in to irony of nations with small airforces with little experience with the airforce equipping their ships with AA weapons so heavily.
You are correct, I meant RRC.
So far I am the only one to have lost a ship due to aerial attack (twice). The DKB has come close. I don't think anyone else has suffered an aerial attack on their ships. I might be wrong.
Quote from: Desertfox on June 20, 2010, 05:17:50 PM
So far I am the only one to have lost a ship due to aerial attack (twice). The DKB has come close. I don't think anyone else has suffered an aerial attack on their ships. I might be wrong.
I think GC got smacked around pretty good in '04. Seem to remember some insane glider bomb armed blimps running around based out of southern Alaska sinking ships in the Caribbean.
OOC
I'm taking notes on what happens here. That's why I will be doing a lessons learned from time to time
Remember what's coming up?
The terrain you are in does include that part of southern Kenya closest in character to the forests and veldt you actually find yourself in Tanzania.
I can't wait until you run into the shield wall of the central plateau highlands. THAT will be a showstopper. ;D
The who what where?
The Wall of Stone north of where the fighting in the South is currently taking place in we go from Jungle, to Plains to where did that wall come from.......?????
Charles
Quote from: Desertfox on June 20, 2010, 04:25:27 PM
Just commenting on the irony. The thing is everyone else will suddenly start packing WWII AA suites. Even when I'm the only one that really knows what happened. It does serve the captain right for being stuck in the harbor instead of at sea where he was supposed to be.
I chalked it up to Wow I got lucky and hit something in those raids it must have been a reserve ship or something and sank do to progressive flooding. Your too far away for Torpedo attacks from those same planes :)
On the other hand any ship carrying a deck cargo full of mines does not want to be straffed by anything even if only armed with a machine gun or two.... :)
Here.
http://geology.com/world/kenya-satellite-image.shtml
See it now?
Quote from: damocles on June 20, 2010, 07:18:40 PM
Here.
http://geology.com/world/kenya-satellite-image.shtml
See it now?
No.... :'( :-[ stupid topographical maps...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/sharpj/africa9e.png)
would that be the big gray rock looking thing Northwest of Nairobi?
(http://geology.com/world/satellite-image-of-kenya.jpg)
Its that north south slash in the left of the picture, the one with the prominent extinct VOLCANO.
There is also the terrain feature that looks like a pick ax head minus the handle.
QuoteSo far I am the only one to have lost a ship due to aerial attack (twice). The DKB has come close. I don't think anyone else has suffered an aerial attack on their ships. I might be wrong.
I, on my part. Have been on the side dishing out damage. But looked at the damage and the weaponry I am using should be enough to convince the use of heavy AA weaponry, land or naval.
But that is a conclusion from my war and my developments, and I have not equips ships with such heavy AA weaponry because it is impractically forward-thinking.
QuoteI'm taking notes on what happens here. That's why I will be doing a lessons learned from time to time.
And also, lessons other nations learn from war are very unlikely to pass onto far away nations. Else I would be using fusing plates on my ships and what-not. Hence I do not agree with Damocles that the Dutch will learn lessons from this war, unless they join it and experience it themselves or Italia or New Zion choose to share their experiences with the Dutch. I must confess, I find either option unlikely.
And please do not use your knowledge of what will be happening next in the N-Verse timeline before it happens. It is using OOC knowledge in IC and is in very bad taste.
QuoteI think GC got smacked around pretty good in '04. Seem to remember some insane glider bomb armed blimps running around based out of southern Alaska sinking ships in the Caribbean.
Oh god, not those!
Ok, Just a thought But Im pretty sure there is no International Cable running to New Zion... If there is one someone please point it out... *Holds up a pair of Shears*....
The Only Telgraph Cable running in the rift near New Zion is well the Empires... and Im pretty sure I did not connect New Zion....
So New Zion shares nothing.....
Now the Empire is learing a few lesson about aircombat... the first is that claims are going to acceed actual damage... But low level straffing runs appear to be very painful, and costly against modern units with lots and lots of machineguns of their own. But painfully I am also learning that they are effective we just need a better plane to carry them out..... ;)
QuoteNow the Empire is learing a few lesson about aircombat... the first is that claims are going to acceed actual damage... But low level straffing runs appear to be very painful, and costly against modern units with lots and lots of machineguns of their own. But painfully I am also learning that they are effective we just need a better plane to carry them out..... Wink
Apparently, I had good enough planes for the purpose, because I didn't lose any planes strafing the Indochinese. :D
Well.... I didn't lose any planes, except for pilot error.
Somehow I doubt the Indo's bolt action carbides were very good for shooting airplanes to begin with. Now if they had some semi auto long rifles or better yet machine guns floating around w/ their troops that would be different.
Or if you were doing straffing runs against targets with extremely well trained and equiped fighters flying over the lines at the same time :)
Even then this is a costly air war and I am very glad I have already orderd over 1000 replacement aircraft I think Im going to need them by January.
Of Course July and August the rain is going to start falling on the other side of the mountains in New Zion around Addis Abiba it will average over 25 CM of rain per month for July and August....
Yes, they were well equipped. Well trained, apparently not.
But then again, I used purpose-built planes to strafe the Indochinese with. And I do believe Indochina's infantry tech was on par with the rest of the world, 5/3s before 6/4s came into existence.
QuoteQuoteI'm taking notes on what happens here. That's why I will be doing a lessons learned from time to time.
And also, lessons other nations learn from war are very unlikely to pass onto far away nations. Else I would be using fusing plates on my ships and what-not. Hence I do not agree with Damocles that the Dutch will learn lessons from this war, unless they join it and experience it themselves or Italia or New Zion choose to share their experiences with the Dutch. I must confess, I find either option unlikely.
1. You do not know what the MVB does, Logi, or who they talk to.
2. Neither do you get me to stop doing my imitations of Hector Bywater, Fletcher Pratt, JFC Fuller, and Liddell Hart who did do exactly what I am doing here, OOC.
3. If you read the Dutch news I established that as a storyline and will follow it up. ;D
QuoteAnd please do not use your knowledge of what will be happening next in the N-Verse timeline before it happens. It is using OOC knowledge in IC and is in very bad taste.
Oh come on....it was an out of character comment about why the Dutch would examine the New Zion war in light of what they KNOW is coming. They aren't stupid about future threat assessment and neither am I.
Google Hector Bywater. In Nverse terms, he's another one of those crazy Norman military prophets.
D.
Quote from: damocles on June 20, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
QuoteQuoteI'm taking notes on what happens here. That's why I will be doing a lessons learned from time to time.
And also, lessons other nations learn from war are very unlikely to pass onto far away nations. Else I would be using fusing plates on my ships and what-not. Hence I do not agree with Damocles that the Dutch will learn lessons from this war, unless they join it and experience it themselves or Italia or New Zion choose to share their experiences with the Dutch. I must confess, I find either option unlikely.
1. You do not know what the MVB does, Logi, or who they talk to.
2. Neither do you get me to stop doing my imitations of Hector Bywater, Fletcher Pratt, JFC Fuller, and Liddell Hart who did do exactly what I am doing here, OOC.
3. If you read the Dutch news I established that as a storyline and will follow it up. ;D
Does not matter. As long as neither nation shares it's experiences you get nothing. In the case that a player involved in this war decides to share it's experiences with Holland, then I have no qualms about it.
Regardless, without player consent you get nothing. :-X
Hector Bywater did not get Japanese or British official cooperation, Logi. He did however exactly what I do here.
This is exactly what I mean when you try to tell me what analysis can and cannot be done...
I know what can be done by people who just read the news, or hang around the pubs and listen to what military professionals think happened from what they hear as rumor or report from a distant war.
And this is a game, hence.
You put money in via sim report, you talk to the mod. Then you are told if you got to know anything. You can not just declare that you do, or even write a story that you do.
Everything follows a procedure of one sort or another. News from backwater Africa takes time to get anywhere, and war details only get out if either the countries want that information to get out, their soldiers talk when they go home (or to spies or the press), or some international press happens to be in the area and can get world out (though the credibility of the press at to military tactics is limited and dubious at best).
Things tend to follow a logical progression. No one is going to overarm their ships with AA guns because some little ship got sunk at port. Even teh sinking of the battleships after the First World War didn't get all navies to beef up their AA to World War II levels. Simple matter is that airplanes don't have the range, nor are they very sturdy. it doesn't take much to take down a fabric covered biplane that can only go maybe 200 mph. Nor can said biplanes carry very much in terms of bomb load. Bombers are large and slow targets. Only when the all metal aircraft that can go 400 mph and carry enough payload to deliver bombs or a real torpedo from several hundred miles away in large numbers will the AA on ships become a priority. Basically when waves of aircraft become a very real and undeniable threat.
But right now....in 1919-1921? Even the light AA most ships carry should be enough to take on the average air attack...and even if it doesn't, the aircraft have to be very luck to do serious damage to larger warships. I recall the Swiss getting lucky against the DKB in one of the Pacific Wars....but that was just it...luck. Something like a 5% chance to hit and even then the damage was minimal unless it manage to hit something critical and chain react.
(Note: the only reason Rohan even had AA guns by 1900 was because of those insane war blimps. Reasoning, if your nearest neighbor is going around for a decade or so with lighter than air machines of war...you'd likely come up with something to shoot them down with. Especially if they were being aggressive.)
Quote from: Walter on June 20, 2010, 08:34:50 AM
The casualty tracker (based on given numbers):
Italy vs New Zion: 20,000-21,500
Also, a good thing for Italy that they did not sign the Vienna Convention.
*waits eagerly for the next "Empire of Italia Diplomatic Standings" post* :)
Hmmmm I figured I was following the rules....?????
Quote6 - Cities not containing Troops nor Defended Military Instalations shall not be subject to bombardment. Defended Cities shall be given reasonable notice, as to allow civilians to leave, if these had no already left. Fortresses and other purely or mostly military instalations may be bombarded without notice. Military Instalations inside Cities may also be be bombarded without notice, with reasonable care taken to minimize Civilian losses;
Every single target I have attacked was a military installation.....?????
On July 16th I will be declaring the Port of Eilat under siege and demanding its surrender. Failing that I will offer to allow the Civilian Population free passage out of the Combat area. But there is a Division of New Zions army inside the city defending Military objectives. If they dont surrender or dont allow the evacuation of Civilians ???? *holds up hands* not my fault... :'(
Fuck...I hope there aren't too many more major naval battles like that in this war. I'll lose my sanity from simming them.
The other folks at Canadian Tire probably thought I already had...
Nah, it's Canadian Tire. People would have thought that you were a completely sane person. :D
Good job there. Just keeping track of more than 5 or 6 ship tracks is enough of a challenge. 50+ Swiss DDs?! It would have taken me a month.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on June 28, 2010, 01:35:36 PM
Fuck...I hope there aren't too many more major naval battles like that in this war. I'll lose my sanity from simming them.
The other folks at Canadian Tire probably thought I already had...
Well in about a month you will have the nice time of simming the huge swarms of ships both China have duking it out with each other. :D
*Hides head in sand*
........Well, at least you have the joy of knowing that Boratistan and Romania will be going at it too....if the passage between the Black and Caspian Seas exists like shown on the map... :D
*Two featherweights enter, one featherweight leaves! Two featherweights enter, one featherweight leaves!*
List of what's been sunken or damaged so far:
New Zion
Sunken
- 1 Kfir Class Destroyer
- 2 Saar Class Destroyer
- 3 Trawlers
- 1 Freighter
- 1 unidentified submarine
Damaged
- 1 Kufrah Class Coastal Battleship
- 2 Submarines (unknown if damaged or not)
New Switzerland
Sunken
- 1 Dayan Class Destroyer
- 1 Sapian Class Destroyer
- 1 M-1 Class Destroyer
- 1 Adventure Class Cruiser
- 1 United States Class Battleship
- 3 Liners
- 1 Honolulu Class Cruiser
- 1 Advantage Class Cruiser
- 1 Osprey Class Light Cruiser
- 3-4 unknown class destroyer, unknown number in addition
Damaged
- 1 Launceston Class Cruiser
- 1 Constellation Class Heavy Cruiser
- 1 Independence Class Battlecruiser
- 2 Liners
- Unknown number of other ships
France
Sunk
- 2 Destroyers, unknown class
- 1 Chevalier Rouge Class Battlecruiser
- 1 Demarce III Class Protected Cruiser
Damaged
- 1 Superbe Class Battleship
- 1 Decreme Class Battleship
- 1 Demarce III Class Protected Cruiser
- 2 Demarce IV Class Protected Cruiser
Italy
Sunk
- 4 Destroyers, unknown class
- 1 Iena Class Coastal Battleship
- 2 Numidicas Class Heavy Cruisers
- 1 SC-1901 Class Scout Cruiser
- 2 Italian Freighters
Damaged
- 1 Numidicas Class Heavy Cruiser
- 1 Destroyer, unknown class
- 1 Submarine (unknown if damaged or not)
DKB
Sunk
- 3 Freighters
- 1 Trawler
Damaged
- 1 Konigsland Class Battleship
OOC Comments: Seems that the French are doing worst when you add up the overall tonnage of those ships damaged, but they can afford it. The Numidicas Class appears to be very popular to sink in these Zionite wars, considering the only major ship lost in the last war was a Numidicas cruiser. The Swiss are taking horrendous losses in their 'normal' cruiser forces, and only have a few heavy cruisers left in active service. DKB's merchant marine is hurting the worst of them all, and their in-theater forces are suffering...although why they don't attack Australia is a mystery to me.
Quote from: Logi on June 28, 2010, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on June 28, 2010, 01:35:36 PM
Fuck...I hope there aren't too many more major naval battles like that in this war. I'll lose my sanity from simming them.
The other folks at Canadian Tire probably thought I already had...
Well in about a month you will have the nice time of simming the huge swarms of ships both China have duking it out with each other. :D
That can be handled statistcally in blocks as most of those will be FPB actions and such a naval melee battle is best handled using melee rules. X number of units attack on track 1, Y units defend etc. Almost like modern missile rules.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on June 28, 2010, 03:42:32 PM
........Well, at least you have the joy of knowing that Boratistan and Romania will be going at it too....if the passage between the Black and Caspian Seas exists like shown on the map... :D
*Two featherweights enter, one featherweight leaves! Two featherweights enter, one featherweight leaves!*
It is as far as I know.
Khazaria has no navy to speak of, but a fairly strong army. Unless Romania is getting help, they might not get much done.
At any rate, any such conflict would need to get in line behind this one and the one between the Chinas.
As a reminder: if you are planning to whack another player or an NPC, please PM the mods and give us a heads up. If the whackee is one of us, you can exclude that mod on the PM.
That was a bit of a joke....
Quote from: TexanCowboy on June 28, 2010, 05:13:46 PM
That was a bit of a joke....
The Khazarian Navy, or the Rumanian Army?
Former and the whole "war" thing.
A question on the battle map.
Shouldn't the border be more south from the Africa Map. I got the impression that the northern border was closer to Lake Tana and not historic.
Michael
That was more a matter of me eyeballing the Africa map and not doing so well at it. I think the historical border is what we should be using.
On a related note, I become less and less enthused with altering real-world geography every day.
No problem
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on June 28, 2010, 07:04:17 PM
That was more a matter of me eyeballing the Africa map and not doing so well at it. I think the historical border is what we should be using.
On a related note, I become less and less enthused with altering real-world geography every day.
Hey.... I for one fully support that Idea in the future... I was with Mike I thought the border was over 100 nm south when I did the first turns attacks....
Charles
Well I was following the official map that shows the border as OTL.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=315.msg33370#msg33370 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=315.msg33370#msg33370)
Anyway I simly looked at this map that we had... looked at a real map.... noted where the OTL Cities were such as Dire Dawa, Addis Abiba and that Lake and drew a theoretical line. East South East and figured that was the Border... The Futher South The Border was the more narrow my avenue of attack was limited so I attacked on a narrow front.
But Oh well... back to fighting the war with what we got not what we thought we had or were about to get....
Charles
The Swiss entered the way to make sure that three different countries will effectively enter the war. And each having a stronger fleet than NZ and NS combined. How... well, Swiss. At least the antijudaists in Phoenix need no stronger proof that the NS policy is determined by the Elders of Zion instead of patriots.
The continuation of the Chinese civil war (and the presumed Maori DoW on the Swiss) should wait at least until the end of the Rift war - triggering when the conflict is about over, just to make sure our dearest geologist still remembers how to sim 50 MTB vs. 30 destroyer battles (under air cover of 70 Aircrafts on each side, and don't forget shore batteries!!11!!!).
And just before the Chinese civil war ends in a ceasefire, the alliance of Romania, Habsburgs and Russia should propose unilateral border corrections for Ukraine.
The Germans and French were already involved. People really like stomping on small countries here, the war had been planned for quite a while now.
France involved? Only after a NS fleet entered the Djibouti Defence zone...
Well according to the report I got, the French opened fired first on a Swiss fleet in international waters. The French also seemed to be already operating with the Allied fleet. I seem to recall something about an Allied Task Force Alpha and Task Force Bravo. Sure the French were not involved? The Swiss would have ignored the French had the French not fired on them.
Officialy any reports from the New Swiss indicating French vessels operating together with Italian or DKB vessels are denied.
With the Rift waters so narrow and Djibouti a main point of interest, of course that Warships meet. And with the known French behavior to invite other ships captains/admirals for breakfast/lunch/dinner it isn't strange groups of warships are seen together.
And yes, after the hidious ambush the NS visited upon a whofully unprepared welcoming flottila the support of the DKB was gladly accepted by the 2 captains of the tiny Demarce III cruisers.
On another note, Chevalier Rouge is reported sunk after hitting a NZ minefield in International waters. A stern warning towards the new Zion government is issued.
Unofficialy, the loss of 1 French Type 2 Airship is seen as the NS opening of hostilities as that is the only logical way to explain the loss of that airship ,in that area, with that kind of weather. The NS is the only country that issued a warning that any French airship had to stay 20 or more miles from any NS ship. And the Flying Fish aircraft tender is the only vessel capable launching fighters that can treathen the Huge Gentle Giant of the air.
For what it's worth, I enjoyed seeing the various news stories about the war.
Thanks but Not alot of time for news stories... must total casualties look at terrain... plot overthrow of the world... er New Zion did I say that out loud... ;)
QuoteThe continuation of the Chinese civil war (and the presumed Maori DoW on the Swiss) should wait at least until the end of the Rift war - triggering when the conflict is about over, just to make sure our dearest geologist still remembers how to sim 50 MTB vs. 30 destroyer battles (under air cover of 70 Aircrafts on each side, and don't forget shore batteries!!11!!!).
And just before the Chinese civil war ends in a ceasefire, the alliance of Romania, Habsburgs and Russia should propose unilateral border corrections for Ukraine.
Ceasefire? You jest, there shall be no such thing! It shall be a war to the ground! ;)
PS: With China, it's more like 200 MTB vs 100 Destroyer battles under >400 aircraft cover
QuoteIt shall be a war to the ground!
Even if he has to drag his ship onto land in order to do that. :D
Why should we wait? Oh, yes, teh secret treaties...
Actual battle scene taken aboard the Swiss flagship:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4&feature=related
The Confederat forces in the area would be happy to investigate the claims of a minefield in international waters. A cruiser, traveling alone and bearing a Green Cross flag, will be sent to investigate the claim. The remainder of the Confederate ships will partol an area between Nairobi and Dodoma to ensure that no neutral shipping will become mired in this mess.
Considering that the CSA are allies of the Wops, their report regarding the minefield will no doubt be biassed. And a Green Cross flag flown by a warship? That's asking for trouble.
Considering that the French got complete plans of the minefields, the sinking of a French ship in said minefields is due either to pure incompetence or an Italian mine... The CSA also has them plans so they are just asking for trouble, and using the Geen Cross for a military mission...
France as well the CSA have the official NZ minefield plans, what is "not smart" from NZ. 2 allies of Italia.
Of course, there could be "some" issues". France could say
- The plans ain't complete
- The plans are false
- The fields got extended
- The mine was adrift
- it wasn't a mine, but a torpedo from a submarine.
On the Green Cross carrying cruiser... The Green Cross is awaiting some information...
Quote from: maddox on June 30, 2010, 03:55:14 AM
France as well the CSA have the official NZ minefield plans, what is "not smart" from NZ. 2 allies of Italia.
Of course, there could be "some" issues". France could say
- The plans ain't complete
- The plans are false
- The fields got extended
- The mine was adrift
- it wasn't a mine, but a torpedo from a submarine.
On the Green Cross carrying cruiser... The Green Cross is awaiting some information...
Quote from: Walter on June 29, 2010, 09:58:16 PM
Considering that the CSA are allies of the Wops, their report regarding the minefield will no doubt be biassed. And a Green Cross flag flown by a warship? That's asking for trouble.
The CSA might be an ally of the Italians, but they are nonbeligerats in this conflict.
The CSA is trying to keep the war from spilling over any further- this may or may not be avoidable... only time will tell. They are also QUITE interested in their currently neutral shipping remaining afloat rather than adorning the bottom of the Rift Valley.
Believe me, I don't care whether the mines that sink my merchants are Italian or Zionite- if cargo is lost, I'm sueing for reperations but it if lives are lost, I'm out for blood.
The Green Cross was chosen to display neutrality in a very visible manner.
This vessel is not acting as a man of war... it's just observing the mine clearing operation.
Should the Green Cross object to the Confederacy observing the operation oficially (all CSA ships have Green Cross represnetative aboard for the crew's benifit anyway), we will refrain form displaying the Green Cross flag and will keep the White Ensign flying.
Just noticed something. Chevalier Rouge was NOT sunk by mines. It was sunk in battle.
Oh and maybe I want the Italians to know the minefield plans...
Quote from: Desertfox on June 30, 2010, 02:45:44 PM
Chevalier Rouge was NOT sunk by mines. It was sunk in battle.
Really? What battle was that? We didn't see her while we were pwning United States. We saw some Demarce cruisers and a few DDs, but no ACs.
It was sunk during that battle, DF is correct. It went down with the three Italians.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on June 30, 2010, 03:00:34 PM
It was sunk during that battle, DF is correct. It went down with the three Italians.
Really I know That you can all read Rocks excellent narrative. But I dont remember any In Character Witness. OOC: Total losses away, IC you need to compartmentalize what you know from what you dont know.
The In Character Explenation given by the French Government is that Chevalier Rouge was sunk by mines in the Rift.
But certain shady connections within the Swiss base at Masahri tell otherwise... :D
*Knew there was a single advantage to leasing it out. Now my spies can infiltrate New Switzerland!* ;)
Just Keep it in the OOC Thread.... *shakes head sadly*
By the Time the News Articles hit the press's in Phoenix I really dont think all the Ships were done sinking..... as the NS Criples were probably run down my forces comming up from Mogadishu and by the time both side limped off the battle field with what could move and wasnt still burning and sinking darkness was probably not to far off....
The In Character Stuff will now begin the process of both sides lying to each other and themselves over who won the Battle.....
*holds up the Five Survivors for NSS United States* the only winner here were the sharks... :'(
Oh, I don't think it was the sharks that thinned US's crew...I think it was the GT that killed her.
Nothing Golden about that Twinkie... She was an Old Under Armored ship fighting a very modern BB with modern Fire Control. All you did was get a full Diameter Penetration of a Barbette. Or you could have just done the same thing through the only 9" of Side Armor
Charles
Actually she had 11" of side armor, and barbette.
Picking this up here. This is copy/pasted from here (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=309.msg61785#msg61785).
Quote from: Desertfox on July 01, 2010, 02:07:37 PM
And who else can they turn too?
The "Do nothing" Orange or the "We are waiting for #16728 Crusade" Ottomans?
And I STILL don't understand this unwarranted hatred towards the Swiss. Well I guess it's just a cover used by the truly evil states to conduct their world domination plans unperturbed. That or everyone really fears me, which is understandable.
If the Ottomans had a power projection capability, it might be different, but as it is now they are a slowly decaying minor power. If they pulled any troops off the line in the Balkans, they expect the Austrians would overrun them. They also didn't look kindly on the maneuver that landed the Swiss on Masirah. At the very least, there is a "geez, why did they have to bring this crap to our neighborhood" feeling. I also suspect that, like much of the world, there is the feeling in Istanbul that the Swiss have been pulling the levers in NZ toward their own ends, whatever they might be.
Orange is more difficult to understand and explain. Do they like the Italians now? Would matters be different if the Dutch were still in Africa, or maybe even if Orange had a land border with the Italians or Germans? I don't know.
However, past Swiss history and behavior has clearly opened the way for DKB involvement, and I suspect for the French choosing to actually come out in the open and fight. What's not yet clear is why more local Swiss enemies in the Pacific haven't pounced yet. It has also probably made it easy for the Leipzig partners to sit back, crack open a cold frosty one, and watch with interest.
QuoteIt has also probably made it easy for the Leipzig partners to sit back, crack open a cold frosty one, and watch with interest.
Exactly what I am doing!GIGGLE
I could not see anything in the Swiss national interest to get engaged in Africa to protect a weak nation with nothing in common. Except the name and the player, but neither justifies the involvement.
Holland sees no advantage in starting wars you cannot win.
That's exactly the opposite of Japan's OLT strategy...hmm, does this say something about the levels of sanity on either side? ;D ;D ;D
QuoteWhat's not yet clear is why more local Swiss enemies in the Pacific haven't pounced yet.
That will clarify itself in August.
The extent of Swiss involvement in New Zion has been the sale of a few weapons and techs. Hell, I'm far more involved with a bunch of other countries. The problem is that people keep mixing OOC and IC stuff. I once ran New Zion and that makes NZ extremely EVIL. I bet that if I took any country, and played it as peacefully and quietly as possible, I would STILL find myself embroiled in war with half of N-verse within say a couple of years.
I am not pulling the levers in New Zion, hell the two countries have very different political views. New Zion wanted to be friends with the Netherlands, while NS hated them. NZ does not like the Germans one bit, while NS was trying to form an alliance with them against Maoria.
As to why NS got involved, well I have very specific reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with New Zion. There is a reason for everything, but all will be revealed in due time. Plus I am tired of people picking fights with small defenseless nations, especially NPCs. Except for me and the Rohan-Anahuac war, people just find some poor NPC to dismember, with EVERYONE jumping in, just to make sure the NPC is dismembered properly.
Oh and I did not start the war.
I didn't mix anything. I gave airplanes to New Zion the first time around, I would never do that to the Swiss.
However, New Zion is now seen as a puppet state of New Swiss, therefore, bad rep.
Quote from: Desertfox on July 01, 2010, 03:15:57 PM
I am not pulling the levers in New Zion, hell the two countries have very different political views.
I suspect you're the one mixing IC and OOC views here. When I wrote about the levers in NZ, I was speaking specifically about the IC perceptions of the decision makers in Constantinople. This is the only reason they can come up with for NS being interested at all in NZ, and for their subterfuge in acquiring the base at Masirah.
As far as player nations picking on NPCs: I suspect it is natural and normal among our player base, in that most players prefer not to irritate other players, so NPCs are much more natural targets. This to me is an indication either that players take things too "personally" or expect that other players will take an attack "personally". This perception is often reinforced by some of what is written and done around here.
Personally, speaking as a player here, not for the mods, I suspect the game would be much better in the long run if players mostly concentrated on picking on other player nations, and not NPCs. This has been one reason I've advocated spirited defense efforts by NPCs when they are attacked. At the very least, a player that attacks an NPC should bleed the same as if they'd attacked a player nation.
But all that said, the choice of NS as "protector" has surely hobbled NZ's efforts to not get gobbled up by her neighbors in this case. It may or may not be fair that NS is held in poor international regard, but it is an IC fact in 1919 in the Nverse. Chaos doesn't usually make for long-standing relationships, and all that.
Quote from: ledeper on July 01, 2010, 02:41:51 PM
QuoteIt has also probably made it easy for the Leipzig partners to sit back, crack open a cold frosty one, and watch with interest.
Exactly what I am doing!GIGGLE
The Popcorns on me.... *rolls film of Sinking Ships*
Quote3. As to why NS got involved, well I have very specific reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with New Zion. There is a reason for everything, but all will be revealed in due time. Plus I am tired of people picking fights with small defenseless nations, especially NPCs.
2. Except for me and the Rohan-Anahuac war, people just find some poor NPC to dismember, with EVERYONE jumping in, just to make sure the NPC is dismembered properly.
1. Oh and I did not start the war.
1. New Swiss diplomacy is notoriously poor.
2. Quiet play and not involved in a war in two years? ROTFLMDO.
3. We watch carefully in den Hague these days.
OOC. People who fish for friends should
never issue demarches as a pre-condition for that friendship, or make outrageous demands in a diplomatic gesture.
D.
Quote from: Guinness on July 01, 2010, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: Desertfox on July 01, 2010, 03:15:57 PM
I am not pulling the levers in New Zion, hell the two countries have very different political views.
I suspect you're the one mixing IC and OOC views here. When I wrote about the levers in NZ, I was speaking specifically about the IC perceptions of the decision makers in Constantinople. This is the only reason they can come up with for NS being interested at all in NZ, and for their subterfuge in acquiring the base at Masirah.
As far as player nations picking on NPCs: I suspect it is natural and normal among our player base, in that most players prefer not to irritate other players, so NPCs are much more natural targets. This to me is an indication either that players take things too "personally" or expect that other players will take an attack "personally". This perception is often reinforced by some of what is written and done around here.
Personally, speaking as a player here, not for the mods, I suspect the game would be much better in the long run if players mostly concentrated on picking on other player nations, and not NPCs. This has been one reason I've advocated spirited defense efforts by NPCs when they are attacked. At the very least, a player that attacks an NPC should bleed the same as if they'd attacked a player nation.
But all that said, the choice of NS as "protector" has surely hobbled NZ's efforts to not get gobbled up by her neighbors in this case. It may or may not be fair that NS is held in poor international regard, but it is an IC fact in 1919 in the Nverse. Chaos doesn't usually make for long-standing relationships, and all that.
OOC
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.
D.
Masirah was not even my idea (%!$@^ Texan!) and had more to do with keeping an eye on the Suez Canal, than New Zion.
Yeah I have noticed that players get all cuddly with each other. Too much peace in an era when war WAS an extension of diplomacy. Too many mega alliances around too. Then there's the pile-on-foxy factor, which is particularly annoying because most of the nations doing the piling have absolutely no reason to do so, while those that do usually stay out. Usually it gets in the way of an interesting storyline.
As for New Zion, if I don't protect New Zion who will? Anyone? I know OOC that New Zion was going to be dismembered independent of anything I did. OOC the first Zionite War I also had nothing to do with it. It was all an Italian fabrication. Yeah NS might not be the best, but it is the only choice.
My diplomacy isn't poor, my reputation is, and diplomacy does nothing for that.
As for New Zion's independence:
If the Zionite government had made an effort to comply to the Dar Es Salam treaty ,we wouldn't have had this situation and Japan -CSA and Esc would have in some form guaranteed the independence of New Zion,but alas the Zionite rulers wasn't willing to comply to the treaty.
CSA? *cough, cough* Italian Ally, *cough, cough*
GC brought up a proposal that had NZ fully complying with Dar-es-salaam. NZ agreed to it, Italy did not. The ESC has obviously been payed of by Italy. And Japan can't really do much.
*slaps the coughing New Swiss agitator on the back*
Hear let me help you out...
New Zions King direcly related the a Jewish Imigrant from New Swiss that became a mercanary took over the royal guard married the Kings daughter and when the king died the Royal guard killed his Heir and viola a new king of Ethipia err. New Zion happened.
Since then every gun, bullet, tech, plane, subs New Zion has aquired came from.... *Drum Roll* New Swiss....
All you had to Do was have the New Zion leaders fold announce they would fogoe any further alliances, contact, or trade with the New Swiss and we would currently be negotiating a new treaty between New Zion and the Empire.
But I would have been secretly very upset by that as OOC: I dont have the reach to attack the Swiss directly but yea..... here you are....
MY IC puzzlement as to how any government can survive basically abandoning its mandate to protect its own shores has already been stated in my IN News Articles.
Charles
QuoteSince then every gun, bullet, tech, plane, subs New Zion has aquired came from.... *Drum Roll* New Swiss....
*cough* CSA *cough* Egypt *cough* Orange... You were saying?
Said King and his descendants are no longer in power, so what does that have to do with anything?
No, you asked NZ to cease ALL relations with NS, or in other words, pretty much declare war on NS. Kinda hard to do when a god chunk of the Zionite population has relatives, connections, and friends in NS.
The Swiss Navy is not a defensive force. It never has been nor ever will. The defense of NS is left to other means. Which is why a direct assault on NS would not force the Swiss Navy too battle.
This is like watching young roosters fighting in my chicken coop.
Total Air Power Combat Losses So Far in 30 Days of Sustained Combat.
Empire of Italia14 Long Range Bomber or 14% of al aircraft in theater
84 Single Engine Scouts, fighter, recon, ground attack. Almost 25% in Theater
13 Twin Engined Medium/Torpedo Bombers. 13% of force in Theater.
New Zion94 Single Engine Scouts, Fighter, Ground Attack, Recon. 13% of all forces in theater.
France1 Type 2 Air Ship [Cause of loss will be decided by Lawyers] ;D approx 10% of Forces in Theater.
Ok stats over have fun
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 01, 2010, 07:57:03 PM
This is like watching young roosters fighting in my chicken coop.
Which coop just so happens to be in my back yard...
My POV as player of France.
France has every reason to be obnoxious to any New Swiss endeavor.
Let us recall the early days. Clipperton island... Followed by the Hawaiï/Neptune ghost ship debacle (thank Palpaté for that, he was cementing his Anuhuac ties)
A tad more recent.
The Caliphate of Caïro- Firenj Convoy.
Not even open warfare with Bharat caused France to have naval losses like NS inflicted in peacetime.
And that is the main reason Admiral Geon is pulling out The Can of WhoopAss. (and the results, again, are in your favor Desertfox.... strange isn't it?)
My POV as moderator.
The alliances in Europe are a result of the "No more war in Europe" promise by France. The other alliances are a result and counter to that alliance.
Quote from: Desertfox on July 01, 2010, 07:54:43 PM
QuoteSince then every gun, bullet, tech, plane, subs New Zion has aquired came from.... *Drum Roll* New Swiss....
*cough* CSA *cough* Egypt *cough* Orange... You were saying?
Said King and his descendants are no longer in power, so what does that have to do with anything?
No, you asked NZ to cease ALL relations with NS, or in other words, pretty much declare war on NS. Kinda hard to do when a god chunk of the Zionite population has relatives, connections, and friends in NS.
The Swiss Navy is not a defensive force. It never has been nor ever will. The defense of NS is left to other means. Which is why a direct assault on NS would not force the Swiss Navy too battle.
OOC.
Did you mean to say that? ???
Quote from: Guinness on July 01, 2010, 02:22:52 PM
However, past Swiss history and behavior has clearly opened the way for DKB involvement, and I suspect for the French choosing to actually come out in the open and fight. What's not yet clear is why more local Swiss enemies in the Pacific haven't pounced yet. It has also probably made it easy for the Leipzig partners to sit back, crack open a cold frosty one, and watch with interest.
Well relations between Italia and Bavaria are very good, but not quite there for Bavaria to jump into a war in Afrika. The background story meant that if Bavaria was solely a Catholic country, it might have joined the first Rift War, but there are all these Lutherans in half the nation.
Beyond that...Bavaria's navy really only has three light cruisers capable of distant ops. So yeah, tap a new keg, grill some bratwurst and watch with interest. Was toying with a new cruiser design last night as a response, but Bavaria's info is rather limited.
Quote
As far as player nations picking on NPCs: I suspect it is natural and normal among our player base, in that most players prefer not to irritate other players, so NPCs are much more natural targets. This to me is an indication either that players take things too "personally" or expect that other players will take an attack "personally". This perception is often reinforced by some of what is written and done around here.
To an extent yes. I put my nebulous plans for a Bavarian-backed civil war tearing off Poland from the Ukraine on hold when it aquired a player both because the political environment was altered, and because it seemed a poor "welcome" to start a conflict. However the choice of the Ukraine came because it was supposed to be unstable and others were interested in chunks.
My other neighbors-
Italia..Po valley attractive, but on the wrong side of the Alps- fortified the border and made friends.
France..do not poke with stick. I wouldn't *mind* Alsace, but not going to pick a fight here.
ESC...ESC has some appealing territory on the south side fo the Baltic...but France distanced herself and the Hapsburgs were allied with the DKB who were hostile, so the ESC became the desired ally for midsized Bavaria.
Hapsburgs...*almost*...if Bory's hadn't RP'd Stephen making a personal approach to Lugwig...well Bohemia might have a new status. But Lugwig is old, and remembers war and the Austrians as allies. So peace endured.
So NPC Ukraine *was* far more appealing.
QuoteOOC.
Did you mean to say that?
Yes, the NSN as designed cannot fight a true defensive battle. There are a few units which can, but not the bulk of the fleet. The NSN is designed to fight when and where it pleases, on its terms. The NSN knows that it can not win a defensive battle against a determined foe, so why even try?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on July 02, 2010, 10:34:53 AM
Quote from: Guinness on July 01, 2010, 02:22:52 PM
As far as player nations picking on NPCs: I suspect it is natural and normal among our player base, in that most players prefer not to irritate other players, so NPCs are much more natural targets. This to me is an indication either that players take things too "personally" or expect that other players will take an attack "personally". This perception is often reinforced by some of what is written and done around here.
To an extent yes. I put my nebulous plans for a Bavarian-backed civil war tearing off Poland from the Ukraine on hold when it aquired a player both because the political environment was altered, and because it seemed a poor "welcome" to start a conflict. However the choice of the Ukraine came because it was supposed to be unstable and others were interested in chunks.
As a player I am willing to go after players but since Navalism isn't exactly a pure military game for personal reasons I would rather not. If we had a different start up / setup I would later my opinion. For now I would rather go after NPC's if I go after nations at all. How to put it... I view it as rude trying to trash players out of the game. Especially with the slow pace of the game as it would take a long time for people to rebuild.
Now the Netherlands is a different matter as there is so much background there I would view a war with them at some point to be something of a pay off.
Michael
QuoteAs far as player nations picking on NPCs: I suspect it is natural and normal among our player base, in that most players prefer not to irritate other players, so NPCs are much more natural targets. This to me is an indication either that players take things too "personally" or expect that other players will take an attack "personally". This perception is often reinforced by some of what is written and done around here.
I will fight player or NPC, either ways for my glorious goals, as long as required by my goals. I do not distinguish.
Else I would not attack the DKB during the Siam War. But again, my position afforded and the position of the Plaer Nations (which are usually stronger than the NPCs) means that it is a more ideal choice to pick on a weaker enemy than a stronger one. Player vs Non-player doesn't factor into it.
Hmmm so are soldier who attack a port flying false colors and murder non combatants while also flying false colors Pirates or Illegal combatants ?????
So do I shoot them or Hang them ? Well if their are any survivors?
IF they come into port flying a false flag, then quick raise the correct one and then open fire then the false flag is a legitimate ruse of war.
We are pre-Geneva-1949 the only deal on civilians is not to shot them out of hand. Its war they have a habit of getting killed when armies clash; especially in urban settings. Its even legal to execute civilians as examples to the rest in response to partisan activity. Death Squads aren't legal.
Navalism has some treaties might want to see what they say.
Michael
No Im thinking about the fact that nobody just sails into an Italian port since 1915.
You are met off shore by a harbor boat with a pilot. The Pilot meets with the skipper of the ship and assumes command for the docking. The harbor boat also has customs and tarrif inspectors. It seems someone flying a greek flag shot up one of these boats several days ago killing many of the crew and the one off Brindisi appears to be missing after it docked with a ship flying the flag of some other neutral.
Looks around for witness of the attack did anyone see them raise a Swiss or New Zion flag...???? Buller Buller.... nope... didnt think so....
Charles
The conventions of war state that terrorist acts launched from sea are treated as piracy acts. You take prisoners for information purposes only, then when you have what you need, kill them.
On Masirah, I'm already in the middle of a NS war-crime against civilians. If I "catch" the persons responsible, I intend to turn them over to "local justice".
I already see the need for an international war crimes tribunal and a treaty to cover it.
The Italians are just cofused cause the Zonite war flag and Greek flag are so similar... Plus everyone that came of was in full uniform and attacked only military targets.
Really Looks at the Star of David and then the Greek Flag...
Not.... :o
except some details, fine by me.
The conventions of war state that terrorist acts launched from sea are treated as piracy acts. You take prisoners for information purposes only, then when you have what you need, kill them.
On Masirah, I'm already in the middle of a NS war-crime against civilians. If I "catch" the persons responsible, I intend to turn them over to "local justice".
I already see the need for an international war crimes tribunal and a treaty to cover it.
It does not matter about the uniform or the flag when the crime is murder, pillage, and rape using war as the excuse.
D.
Since the troops in question attacked ONLY legitimate military targets, it does matter.
For those that care... the two naval flags.
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/il~war.gif)
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gr~jack.gif)
I just want to know how the Swiss got off Masirah with no one noticing...
So do I. Airship recon, subs , eyes everywere, making sure nothing happens without "the allies" noticing.
At night? Fast? I didn't exactly have a lot on the ground.
Quote from: Desertfox on July 14, 2010, 08:14:26 AM
Since the troops in question attacked ONLY legitimate military targets, it does matter.
OOC.
But they didn't restrain their attacks, did they? Civilians and their domiciles and persons were destroyed and murdered by treachery and an act of piracy no better than the criminal aggression that the NS carried out against the MK so many years ago?
No such attack ever so conducted that way, ever was confined or moderated. That is why British commando raids-even the one against the St Nazaire locks were carefully planned as specific controlled single objective attacks and were not harem scarem charges into a city port. When such an attack occurs, whether intended or not, civilians are murdered.
==========================================
If you want to comment on Masirah, do it here please? You are not being set up. You told me that you could not command your Masirah garrison after a certain date. So you have no idea what they did.
I have troops and reporters on the island and they report what I find. Its not my fault that the NS garrison went berserk and committed reprisals.
What's it gonna be? Obstinate defiance that led to needless civilian suffering as a garrison you could not control went berserk, or a deliberate scorched earth policy that left the civilians to the same end result as they cowardly abandoned the civilians in their care and authority? Either way,
the NS are war criminals.
QED.
Quote from: miketr on July 14, 2010, 08:21:43 AM
For those that care... the two naval flags.
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/il~war.gif)
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gr~jack.gif)
Another war-crime.
Collateral damage happens, the Italians in New Zion could just as easily be called war criminals.
QuoteIf you want to comment on Masirah, do it here please? You are not being set up. You told me that you could not command your Masirah garrison after a certain date. So you have no idea what they did. I have troops and reporters on the island and they report what I find.
No I said I could not change the orders past a certain date. It was an OOC thing not an IC lack of communication. The troops deployed there where crack professionals. Not the ones to go on rampage. Plus it goes against everything I have stated about how the Swiss operate.
Sorry but if something happened it was NOT by my hand. You can say whatever you want, but IC it did not happen.
A note to all: it's helpful if we keep the IC threads strictly IC, and the OOC threads strictly OOC. Or in other words, do the propagandizing in the news threads, and keep the discussion here strictly OOC and civil, please.
As I see it, whatever the Dutch claim to have found on Masirah has not been independently confirmed, and therefore IC is simply propaganda, nothing more.
Quote from: damocles on July 14, 2010, 01:09:48 AM
It does not matter about the uniform or the flag when the crime is murder, pillage, and rape using war as the excuse.
I only have you post written on the Swiss "atrocities", Rocky did not mention anything like that, so it is only Dutch propaganda as far as I can tell.
Anyways, murder and pillage is an accepted N3Verse modus operandi (as in no one cares), especially in the region.
Quote from: miketr on July 14, 2010, 08:21:43 AM
For those that care... the two naval flags.
Other than the prominant use of blue & white, not terribly similar.
I'd say the Greek and the Bavarian - both basically blue with a white cross- have more in common than the Greek and Zion, and still aren't terribly close.
Quote from: Guinness on July 14, 2010, 09:14:31 AM
A note to all: it's helpful if we keep the IC threads strictly IC, and the OOC threads strictly OOC. Or in other words, do the propagandizing in the news threads, and keep the discussion here strictly OOC and civil, please.
As I see it, whatever the Dutch claim to have found on Masirah has not been independently confirmed, and therefore IC is simply propaganda, nothing more.
My comments are based on Nverse history as to what the NS have done in the past, and based on the behind the screen diplomacy that occurred.
The NS could have declared that they ordered evacuation on the 14th to the Dutch and not left the minefields they left as poisoned fruit to prevent subsequent aid from Oman or from anywhere else reaching the abandoned civilians. The fishing fleet could not put out, trade for food could not occur, etc.
Not until the Dutch cleared the mines was there safe sea access safe to the fishing ports. From the criminal behavior by the NS in their obstinacy and diplomatic prevarication I just demonstrated here, plus the extensive minefields I found that I had to clear, I extrapolated their naval behavior to the same exact behavior on land, based on NS first use of gas, their past troop behavior in the previous Pacific Wars and just ran with it. If its propaganda and I refute that charge, there is enough real implied physical evidence present from those gleanings to prove it on the New Swiss. I have already invited one foreign news service to confirm this.
I have a reason for this storyline I develop.
Atrocities and War Crimes
People need to keep in mind this is the 1920's not the 1950's plus.
We are not talking about Einsatzgruppen here. Up till the events of WW2 and the massive NAZI brutality and atrocities there was a very different attitude towards war. Yes there was bad PR over stuff like the German occupation of Belgium and 2 months of the German troops reacting badly to perceived partisan activity but things settled down fairly quickly. Also there was the naval war negatives in terms of U Boat Warfare. Still if you look at some of the stuff that went on in the 19th century and early 20th its all nothing.
First of all there is a double standard. European nations fighting colonial wars, mass slaughters of native peoples didn't generate much response.
Its only when the Nazi's did the same in Europe that things generated a response.
Civilians getting killed in military operations was considered par for the course. Recall that the ALLIES in WW2 leveled huge swaths of Europe with the Strategic Air Campaign.
So while stories on "War Crimes" will generate something of a response its not going to be a massive earth moving event. In effect people of the games current time period are much more hardened to such things or put another way the response of many is going to be, "tough s**t, you go to war you take your chances."
Michael
QuoteMy comments are based on Nverse history as to what the NS have done in the past, and based on the behind the screen diplomacy that occurred.
You might want to reread your history again then. Because NS has been as clean as they come. You might be reading all that propaganda filth strewn around by those who can not accept the greatness that is New Switzerland. But yeah, I have deliberately kept NS very clean, no atrocities ever. This is all OOC btw. Hell I didn't even execute the government after the civil war, like anyone else would have done.
Quote from: miketr on July 14, 2010, 09:58:44 AM
Atrocities and War Crimes
Agree. Even the French public isn't as up and comming as you should expect. After all, the Rift, Oman and Masirah, who cares. It's not as if the French army is involved.
One answer.....
League of Nations was founded in the 1920s partly as a reaction to international atrocities committed in the 1880s-1910s, not just WW I; but for such things as the Sudan and the Boer War.
Rules of war were in place since the 1860s RTL and people were tried and hanged for their war-crimes in several nations because of those rules.
Its well past time that such barbarism in the Nverse ended, too.
======================================================
As for NS player claims.....
NS player should remember that I am the Dutch player. I already know about the NS "claims".
Today's (2010) estimated population on Masirah is about 12,000. The British military came in the 1930s. I've not yet found population figures from before 1930, but I suspect it was certainly no more than today, and quite possibly much less.
The atrocities perpetrated by the Habsburgers and Ottomans in the last Balkan conflict, and I suspect the reprisals perpetrated by the Greek partisans after their "liberation"* during that war were all of greater magnitude, I suspect. Ditto some surely ugly stuff that happened during the recent Mesoamerican civil war, and who knows what may have happened in the recent Pacific War.
Given all that, it seems unlikely to me that many would get fired up about what the Dutch have claimed on Masirah. Modern for 1919 photography might have some additional effect here, and I suppose if the Dutch shot some movie footage for the newsreels, that could too, but as Mike points out, widespread understanding of crimes against civilians in war really didn't come until World War 2, and that was the result of new more persuasive mass media, and the collective european memory of the losses of World War 1 as much as anything else, I believe. Certainly some of Wilson's 14 points and the idea of the League of Nations extended from events as far back as the Boer War and the Russo-Japanese War, but the League never would have gained traction if it hadn't been for World War 1.
Somewhere in my humble library, I have a book on this subject from a class I took at University about media coverage of war. I can't remember the title. It's probably in a box...
*Sorry Mike, as Ottoman player I've got to use the quotes here. :)
I was speaking OOC not IC. And everything I said can be confirmed by others OOC. IC of course it's all just Swiss lies...
http://www.nps.gov/history/NR/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/11andersonville/11andersonville.htm
I figure population stability around 12,000 hit 1890. I can adjust that but it seems the eco-range burden Human limit for the island sans advanced 1920s tech.
As for warcrimes excitement, there was quite a furor over Boer War atrocities too, as I recall. Australians were the fall-guys in that case.
Videos will be available for world wide cinema distribution as soon as I can simulate it.
I am going to push this storyline.
Quote from: damocles on July 14, 2010, 10:45:43 AM
As for warcrimes excitement, there was quite a furor over Boer War atrocities too, as I recall. Australians were the fall-guys in that case.
I'm reading Massie's
Dreadnought right now. It's got chapter about the Boer War, which reminded me how much public perception in Europe was the result of conscious decisions by decision makers on the continent, especially German and French, to push the story of atrocities as a way to damage British position and prestige, especially at a time when it looked like Britain and Germany might buddy up.
I suppose there are parallels to that situation here too.
Quote from: damocles on July 14, 2010, 10:13:51 AM
One answer.....
League of Nations was founded in the 1920s partly as a reaction to international atrocities committed in the 1880s-1910s, not just WW I; but for such things as the Sudan and the Boer War.
Yes and it was utterly ineffective.
Quote from: damocles link=topic=5060.msg62399#msg62399Rules of war were in place since the 1860s RTL and people were tried and hanged for their war-crimes in several nations because of those rules.
Its well past time that such barbarism in the Nverse ended, too.
Yes people were put on trial by their own militaries for violations of military regulations in the field. Totally different than international reaction especially effective international reaction.
Michael
Quote from: damocles on July 14, 2010, 10:45:43 AM
As for warcrimes excitement, there was quite a furor over Boer War atrocities too, as I recall. Australians were the fall-guys in that case.
Look up the Herero or the Armenian genocide, US tactics in the Philippines, a very long list besides. Guess what OTHER than news papers and the like nothing meaningful occurred.
Look up the Christian Reconquest of the Balkans a lot of Muslims got ejected AND slaughter in the 18th and 19th centuries with the Yugoslavia breakup the last echoes.
The Western World only cared in anyway if Christians / Westerns were being killed by those who were not. The response then was to use it as an excuse for colonial expansion, all to bring "civilization" to the world.
Bottom line is up until after WW2 the "world" just didn't care and only then because stuff that hadn't been seen since the 30 years war happened in "Europe"; see exception of ejecting the Turks.
I think that, like everyone else, the Dutch don't care about it, but see it as a good excuse (which is not the case as no one cares) to justify any attacks.
There is this Mike.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f6a_1258939901
Nobody cared about the brown skins?
It was important enough to cause a political mess.
Ok On the clearing of Mine Fields.
If the New Swiss left extensive mine fields you will be months if not year clearing them. I am already planning more Mine Sweepers and Improvements to existing methods to get rid of the two very extensive mine fields currently in the Rift. I expect it to take until at least 1922 before they are both completely cleared.
As an example of Economic Warfare it usually take 3x to 5x time and money to clear a minefield as to lay it.
So New Zion has used a dozen ships for 3 months to lay the northern Rift. It will take me 3 dozen ships and 10 months to sweep it and probably a few lost ships as well.
Quote from: damocles on July 14, 2010, 03:42:10 PM
There is this Mike.
Nobody cared about the brown skins?
It was important enough to cause a political mess.
Note the following in the title... "No-one was ever held to account"
You are confusing noise and action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surafend_affair
A tongue lashing and paying a few hundred pounds years later hardly qualifies as much of a response.
Yes I standard by my statement that European nations aren't going to take substantive actions over the deaths of civilians in what are viewed as colonial wars, unless the civilians are their own. Other wise the MANY things would have played out very differently.
Michael
Considering the theory of Eugenics was popular at the time...Europeans would quite blatantly not care what happened to an "inferior" race in the mist of a war. It would take wide spread knowledge and horror via both a large number of soldiers and civilians witnessing the accounts, and visual media to bring such events home for all to see to change this view. While such incidents might generate political troubles here and there, most where just basically that...political troubles....noise that will be mostly forgotten by any not directly involved within five years.
And quite frankly....that has not happened yet in Navalism.
The main difference in Navalism from the Real World is that the World of Navalism is not entirely dominated by Europeans. There are pockets of major powers that are not European, and some are taken seriously (unlike say Japan in the late 19th century and early 20th century before they defeated Russia).