Naval treaty musings

[The Rock Doctor]

It would be kind of funny if we went through sixteen pages of argument and then ended up with the same thing as the N3 version - a cap on gun size and a cap on capital ship size.

[Desertfox]

Highly unlikely, especially if you want the Japanese to be signatories. After going thru both of those threads, I found myself in complete agreement with my younger self. I do believe we are in a better position for a more comprehensive treaty now than back then. There is much greater parity and fewer voices, so should be easier to come to some sort of consensus.

[The Rock Doctor]

A broader treaty does create new design and deployment challenges that a simple size/gun cap does not.

Doesn't mean I'd necessarily agree to one, but you never know.

[snip]

It would be kind of funny if we went through sixteen pages of argument and then ended up with the same thing as the N3 version - a cap on gun size and a cap on capital ship size.

It would be, but we wont know until the IC thread pops up :P

[Kaiser Kirk]

OOC : While I recognize a 27kt cap would benefit Parthia as we already have a battleship division of large vessels. It would be nice if no one was allowed to match/exceed my ships.

However, I like designing and building battlewagons.  As Jeftge pointed out, we can reasonably expect to manage 12x 33,000t in service. 
That's roughly how I designed it, I rather expected 8 battleships, a couple BCs, and then ~4 "Yorktown" size carriers.  With each nation varying around that.

Choose to build 8x 45,000 ton battleships and you may not have the other vessels. Balance becomes part of the game.
Which is why I pointed out earlier that it's the next generation of ships where size starts to be an issue, not this one.

I really object that the entire idea popped up in Jefgtes' thread after he posted a big ship for review, after Snip posted his big ship.
It really makes it seem like the reason for this idea is Out-of-character knowledge based on Player's plans, not on ships in progress or completed.

For my part, I'm just getting to choose between ships I've been planning for quite a while. It is extremely unlikely that I would agree to a treaty that didn't allow that.
Regardless of the attraction of having others treaty limited to smaller warships than mine.

[Jefgte]

I really object that the entire idea popped up in Jefgtes' thread after he posted a big ship for review, after Snip posted his big ship.
It really makes it seem like the reason for this idea is Out-of-character knowledge based on Player's plans, not on ships in progress or completed.

I have too Tillman & H44 in reserve but not in my Plan.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I have too Tillman & H44 in reserve but not in my Plan.

Right now one of the Bahamut variants, at ~43211, is the biggest I have...well as Parthia.
That was the 23 knot version...

[TacCovert4]

I mean technically I could build a Tillman.  Of course the question is 'why would I want to'. 

To some degree I find the 'mega battleships' to probably be a curse upon those who are building them as they absorb huge amounts of resources into a single vessel.....one that just screams 'torpedo magnet'

[Kaiser Kirk]

I mean technically I could build a Tillman.  Of course the question is 'why would I want to'. 

To some degree I find the 'mega battleships' to probably be a curse upon those who are building them as they absorb huge amounts of resources into a single vessel.....one that just screams 'torpedo magnet'

60,000 ton Tillmans are likely not balanced for economies our size :)

It's a matter of how you view the potential decision points, and what might be needed to win there.
Pretty much any case in which you devote to many resources to one type of vessel will leave you vulnerable to asymmetric warfare.

It's a rock/paper/scissors game.
However, a balanced fleet seems to fairly well minimize that problem.
Plus since we play off each other, one players focus on MTBS (early Parthia) can be quickly countered by superior gunboats (Byzantium).  Subs by Destroyers, Destroyers by Cruisers, etc.

That type of counter is why I've been flailing about on Large Armored Cruisers...not sure how to address those.

We've seen extreme success by surface torpedo attacks are extremely difficult in daytime, and folks have come up with some defenses to the nighttime ones. Particularly in this era where subs shoot from 500-2500yards, but are much slower than the ships, so it's hard to get into firing position without being spotted and charged.

Ironically, not only was the only German ship HMS Dreadnaught sank a Uboat it rammed.... but the UBoats didn't get any RN Dreadnaughts - just Predreads (which was still shocking at the time. 

The sad part is tech moves so fast everything we build  needs rebuilding or replacing in 10 years...oh dear, time to design more warships.

[snip]

I do agree that its very much a hunter-hunted relationship that determines what sort of types are useful for a given power. What works for one may not work for another and that is part of the fun. Its kind of why I think a IC treaty discussion will be far more interesting than doing it OOC, as we will ideally get to see how various nations see that dynamic playing out in terms of how it effects their views on the proposals.

[Desertfox]

The sad part is tech moves so fast everything we build  needs rebuilding or replacing in 10 years...oh dear, time to design more warships.

This is why I am optimistic we can everyone to agree on tonnage limits. Ships gotta be replaced anyways, only thing no limits does is leave everyone with massive obsolete fleets.

[Jefgte]

Quote from: Jefgte on January 22, 2021, 07:17:07 PM
30000t could be the limit.

...but all my planned ships are over that...
and I've just now gotten my 365L45 gun they use in service and can build them.

=> Don't build G3 or N3...Build Rodney.

;)

[The Rock Doctor]

It's been interesting to think through possible issues and consider what the Union position would be on each.

My opinion on the use of elevators in heptapod masts will be controversial.

[Kaiser Kirk]

=> Don't build G3 or N3...Build Rodney.

;)

Blech.

[The Rock Doctor]

=> Don't build G3 or N3...Build Rodney.

;)

Blech.

Looks like Jef has volunteered to be the villain of this game.