Spain ships 1904 projects

[Tanthalas]

I am with Rock 20 knots feels a tad excessive.

[Walter]

I disagree. It's a passenger liner so that speed should be acceptable. RMS Lusitania laid down OTL in 1904 had a 25 knot speed (although she was a lot bigger). I think range is more of an issue. With the 20 knot top speed, the 5200 nm range should probably be at 18 knots or so for fast Atlantic crossings. OTL in 1904 the westbound speed record was 23.15 knots and the eastbound record was 23.58 knots. Granted this ship will not be breaking those records, but still should have a decent speed for passengers crossing the seas and oceans (which is why I think an 18 knot cruising speed is better with the used range).

[olekit24]

Yes, that's the passenger liner for transatlantic voyages. The speed is enough for that time, I belive spain liner will never get Blue Riband, but she should be no worser then her competitors. As for cruising speed - yes, that is good idea to rise the speed from 12 to 18 knots.

[olekit24]

Spain transatlantic passenger ship

RCNE Cadiz, Spain Passenger liner laid down 1905 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   13 500 t light; 13 862 t standard; 18 093 t normal; 21 477 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (509,31 ft / 491,01 ft) x 65,62 ft x (25,33 / 29,61 ft)
   (155,24 m / 149,66 m) x 20,00 m  x (7,72 / 9,02 m)

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23 116 ihp / 17 245 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 5 200nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7 615 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   779 - 1 014

Cost:
   £0,978 million / $3,913 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 3 612 tons, 20,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 163 tons, 23,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 592 tons, 25,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 5 725 tons, 31,6%
      - Hull below water: 1 500 tons
      - Hull above water: 4 000 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 225 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21 798 lbs / 9 888 Kg = 201,8 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,28
   Metacentric height 4,2 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 13,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,776 / 0,788
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,16 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00%,  33,60 ft / 10,24 m,  29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  24,93 ft / 7,60 m,  24,93 ft / 7,60 m
      - Aft deck:   30,00%,  24,93 ft / 7,60 m,  24,93 ft / 7,60 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00%,  29,53 ft / 9,00 m,  33,60 ft / 10,24 m
      - Average freeboard:      27,50 ft / 8,38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168,8%
   Waterplane Area: 27 687 Square feet or 2 572 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 140%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 422 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,89
      - Longitudinal: 2,91
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily


Misc weights:
        - 4200t - cabins for 850 passengers (60 1st class, 240 2nd class, 550 3rd class) or 2000 soldiers and officers (war time)
        - 1500 t - cargo
        - 25 t - long range radio

[Walter]

Another thing I just looked at is the number of passengers. I do not know what tonnages you used to get to those passenger numbers, but looking at my spreadsheet with data based on the springstyle notes, using the 1905 baseline values for the passengers with 1st class being 2x class passenger, you would only need 2718 tons for that amount of passengers. Juggling a bit with the numbers in my spreadsheet and using your class ratios gives me 93 1st class, 371 2nd class and 848 3rd class for a total of 1312 passengers.

... and if you want to break it down further...


Cabins 1st class
1-person: 14 cabins
2-person: 14 cabins
3-person: 17 cabins

Cabins 2nd class
1-person: 81 cabins
2-person: 9 cabins
3-person: 68 cabins

Cabins 3rd class
1-person: 94 cabins
2-person: 196 cabins
4-person: 64 cabins
6-person: 11 cabins
8-person: 5 cabins

(IIRC I based the cabin breakdown on Titanic's)

:)

[olekit24]

I agree with you, the ship can take more passengers... I count them as 1 pass of 3 rd class is for 4 t of weight, 2nd class - x1,5 and 1st - x4

[olekit24]

I'm afraid my transatlantic liner has grown a little )



RCNE Cadiz, Spain Passenger liner laid down 1905 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   17 418 t light; 17 848 t standard; 21 464 t normal; 24 357 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (528,09 ft / 510,07 ft) x 65,55 ft x (30,91 / 34,59 ft)
   (160,96 m / 155,47 m) x 19,98 m  x (9,42 / 10,54 m)

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 35 848 ihp / 26 743 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 4 100nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6 510 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   886 - 1 152

Cost:
   £1,394 million / $5,575 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 5 601 tons, 26,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 367 tons, 20,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 046 tons, 18,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 7 450 tons, 34,7%
      - Hull below water: 1 500 tons
      - Hull above water: 4 425 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 1 525 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15 681 lbs / 7 113 Kg = 145,2 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 15,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,727 / 0,737
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00%,  30,97 ft / 9,44 m,  26,90 ft / 8,20 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  22,31 ft / 6,80 m,  22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Aft deck:   30,00%,  22,31 ft / 6,80 m,  22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00%,  30,18 ft / 9,20 m,  30,97 ft / 9,44 m
      - Average freeboard:      25,21 ft / 7,68 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,6%
   Waterplane Area: 27 448 Square feet or 2 550 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 441 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,39
      - Overall: 1,00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

        Misc weights (12850 GRT):
         - 5925t - cabins for 1950 passengers (150 1st class, 300 2nd class, 1500 3rd class) or 2962 soldiers and officers (war time)
        - 1500 t - cargo
        - 25 t - long range radio

[Walter]

I'm afraid my transatlantic liner has grown a little )

A sign that you are playing too much with the design. I kinda have the same problems at times. :)

The first Yamato design I made for Wesworld came in at 59,095 tons light. 2 1/2 years and many, many modifications later, it was finalized at 75,000 tons light. An increase of 15,000 tons.

About a month ago I started to mess around with a large carrier design for 1948 Wesworld that originally came in at 62,390 tons light after the first design (though I started out with the values of the previous CVA design so technically it started out as a 52,000 tons light design). Many, many modifications later it now comes in at 71,800 tons light. An increase of about 9,400 tons.

The passenger liner design I have planned here for China comes in at 18,256 tons light. Unlike Wesworld, here I am limited by the size of my docks, but I am happy with the way it is so I doubt it will get much bigger.

[olekit24]

Oh, dock limitations save all of us here))  such liner should be more then 200 m long and would have more then 25000 tonnage. But to build quickly dock Type 3 is very expensive for  me))

[Walter]

Oh, dock limitations save all of us here))

Only us poor nations. The US and UK have no problems with spending BPs and cash so slip/dock limitations is more of a bother to them.

such liner should be more then 200 m long and would have more then 25000 tonnage.

I actually started by looking at the RMS Lusitania... until I realized that I would need a Type 4 Slip/Dock to build a liner like that, so I went for something much smaller that could be built by the Chinese yards. Will take a while before China can build a 200m long, 25,000 ton vessel

But to build quickly dock Type 3 is very expensive for  me))

There really is no 'quickly'. In order to have a Type 3 dock, you need a Type 3 port so an upgrade of the existing Type 2 port means paying $15 and 1 BP, but the port construction/expansion limit is $6 per half year meaning it will take 3 HYs to expand the port. Once that is done, you need your Type 3 slip/dock which have the same construction/expansion limit as the ports meaning that it would take 3 HYs to build one (4 HYs if you go for a dock). The quickest way would be to expand Spain's existing Type 2 dock at Valencia but it is currently occupied.

So the quickest you can get a type 3 dock is 4 HYs at a cost of $20 and 2Bps... which is a fortune for poor nations.

[olekit24]

I have started to modify my Type 0 slipways in Valencia... And it takes more then 3 halves for me. Because I need to build all of it: infrastructure, navy, merchant fleet, army and BP's.... I hope I'll do the gap till 1910s but not earlier.

So, I dont even think to modify everything higher Type 1 ))

[olekit24]

Acorazado (battleship) El Rey Alfonso XII



Two ships of the class were laid down in 1904, but their construction had stopped. The design were remade and Spain is waiting first ship to enter the fleet in late 1907

BB-1907, Spain battleship laid down 1905

Displacement:
   10 266 t light; 10 779 t standard; 11 856 t normal; 12 718 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393,70 ft / 389,60 ft) x 70,14 ft x (23,95 / 25,41 ft)
   (120,00 m / 118,75 m) x 21,38 m  x (7,30 / 7,75 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12,01" / 305 mm 45,0 cal guns - 873,07lbs / 396,02kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 6,46" / 164 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      6 - 6,46" / 164 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      2 raised mounts
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 raised mount
      6 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 40,0 cal guns - 5,42lbs / 2,46kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 4 914 lbs / 2 229 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 280 mm   272,31 ft / 83,00 m   9,38 ft / 2,86 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm     73,00 ft / 22,25 m   9,38 ft / 2,86 m
     44,29 ft / 13,50 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   2,36" / 60 mm   251,64 ft / 76,70 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 108% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,48" / 190 mm   2,36" / 60 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   4,92" / 125 mm   2,36" / 60 mm      3,94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   4,92" / 125 mm   2,36" / 60 mm      3,94" / 100 mm

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,77" / 45 mm
   Forecastle: 1,38" / 35 mm  Quarter deck: 1,38" / 35 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11,02" / 280 mm, Aft 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines and steam turbines
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 23 359 ihp / 17 426 Kw = 21,00 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 939 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   567 - 738

Cost:
   £1,212 million / $4,848 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 058 tons, 8,9%
      - Guns: 1 058 tons, 8,9%
   Armour: 3 102 tons, 26,2%
      - Belts: 1 557 tons, 13,1%
      - Armament: 746 tons, 6,3%
      - Armour Deck: 653 tons, 5,5%
      - Conning Towers: 146 tons, 1,2%
   Machinery: 2 472 tons, 20,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 575 tons, 30,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 590 tons, 13,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 0,5%
      - Hull above water: 60 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9 432 lbs / 4 278 Kg = 10,9 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 1,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 16,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,634 / 0,641
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -1,20 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,82 ft / 0,25 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00%,  18,54 ft / 5,65 m,  15,26 ft / 4,65 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  15,26 ft / 4,65 m,  14,60 ft / 4,45 m
      - Aft deck:   35,00%,  14,60 ft / 4,45 m,  14,60 ft / 4,45 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  14,60 ft / 4,45 m,  15,26 ft / 4,65 m
      - Average freeboard:      15,14 ft / 4,62 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102,2%
   Waterplane Area: 20 629 Square feet or 1 916 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 672 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 2,20
      - Overall: 1,01
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons:
    - long-range radio – 25 tons
          - 4 sub 18' torpedo + reloads 12 tons
   - flag facilities – 10 tons
          - admiral's suite – 3 tons
          - anti-torpedo net – 10 ton

[Logi]

Just a reminder but, you cannot change portions of the ship after they have been laid down.

If you've already put $/BP into the laid down ships you'll either have to finish them as designed previously or forfeit those resources.

[olekit24]

I've asked you and snip about it several months ago. But you answer nothing.

I've laid down two ships in H1 1904, but they both get only 0,75 BP. Let we deside that those BPs forfeited and I started building from the zero.

[Logi]

I did not recall reading any such PM so I went back to search for it. You sent it back in March and we had answered you on other topics since then. I mentioned several times over these months that if we did not reply to something, you ought to resend it since it was probably lost in the bulk.

If the mods have a reason for not answering, we will say so. We will never purposefully not reply to a PM.