After a bit of internal debate...

[Valles]

...I've decided to actually write up and reveal my strategy and plans here for fact checking, plausibility discussion, and so on. In brief, the idea is that Maoria has set itself up as a 'loyal tributary state' of Imperial China by sending tribute and making the correct polite lies, so that they can credibly ask for monetary and material assistance in destroying New Switzerland. Imperial China would have a hard time doing that directly, first, because they lack the BP to keep up with New Swiss naval construction on their own, and second, because so many parties around the world that would never otherwise give the proverbial rodent's fundament about the fate of NS would be concerned about the possibility or likelihood of atrocities against Swiss civilians that they would interfere and block an attempt at invasion or retribution.

Since the Maori goal is the capture of their territory and the liberation and ultimate total assimilation of large portions of its populace, rather than actual revenge, I suspect that they'd meet less opposition... while the Chinese might actually regard it as a more severe punishment to have a society's posterity revile them as ruthless conquerors than to merely kill them.

I haven't discussed it with Logi, but I've considered the possibility that support might actually be gathered from the RRC, also, by noting that an alternate source of funding would increase Maoria's ability to chart a relatively moderate course in the face of potential Imperial pressure for harsher measures.

The reason that I felt the need to discuss this more widely than just the mods and Logi and Phoenix is that a 'Maoria' - I'd probably redesign the political system after I'd finished being unfair to Tan - would then end up easily in the same weight class as Rohan, Orange, or Gran Colombia, which I get the impression wouldn't be considered desirable by the rest of the player base.

[Tanthalas]

My personal opinion on this is if a potential swiss enemy is going to Retcon, id likley want to retcon as the NS.  That realy isnt an option as the NS have to much History fighting other people in the Pacific.

Given the History in the Pacific, if you allied with RCC you would be placing yourself at odds with MK, and if you allied with the MK, you would be placing yourself at odds with the Rebelious RCC.  Untill 1908 MK and RCC were one Country (the Middle Kingdom), in 1908 RCC rebelled against MK and won.  So for a retcon you would more likley be allied to MK (whos Relations with the NS are actualy improving, but thats another story I havnt posted the start of yet).

as for trying to improve Maoria up to GC, Rohan, & Orange standard, like I said it would involve a retcon, and if other countries in the region cant have one then you shouldnt get one either.

*Edit is below this point*

Looking at the Curent financials on Maoria, GC, Rohan, Orange, and New Switzerland
Pop            BP       IC             Income
45.9           10       35              $75       Maoria
48.25         26      117            $165.22   Gran Columbia
76.5           27      123            $197.50   Rohan
55.4           21.5   115            $169.36   Orange
36.24         17.0     92            $128.20   New Switzerland

The boost your asking for would not only be unfair to me, it would totaly Screw me.  Basicly your asking to double all your numbers with the exception of population.  Not only do I find it unfair, I would be forced to ask for the same treatment as would DKB, and Japan just to keep the Pacific a level playing ground.  Heck Spain and The Dutch would likley need it to to keep the newly larger Pacific Powers from Over runing their outposts in the Region, which would lead to similar problems in Europe.

Now im not trying to totaly crap on your idea man, I just dont see it as Plausable.  We would all like to see a boost to our ability to build, but How would people react to me asking to have Franji added to New Switzerland? (FYI that would put the NS about where you are aiming for) Poorly I would imagine very very poorly.

[Kaiser Kirk]

[quote author=Tanthalas link=topic=3346.msg35859#msg35859 ...I would be forced to ask for the same treatment as would DKB, and Japan just to keep the Pacific a level playing ground.  Heck Spain and The Dutch would likley need it to to keep the newly larger Pacific Powers from Over runing their outposts in the Region, which would lead to similar problems in Europe..
[/quote]

Not all powers are born to be equal, though if we're begging for sudden boosts, I'd like to be as big as France :) 

My 2 cents is that Maori's desire to be larger, and her current situation, are good examples of why smaller states can find it advantageous to hitch themselves to larger states. So as a future strategy, Maori could seek to become close to the RRC, and make it obvious that propping up Maori is in the strategic self interest of the RRC, thus gaining RRC investment etc. to boost mineral production and processing from the Mines of Maori.

All of which might obtain the end result Valles seeks, but in a transparent, evolving, in play manner.
Right, back to vacation now...

[Valles]

At the moment, it looks exactly as you're saying. I am not asking for a direct handout or retcon of any sort; heck, if I were going to ask for a retcon I'd be trying to redesign my Cross Mirage class battleships and pick up the rest of the fleet tonnage I was initially offered, not completely change my setup.

What I'm saying is that I think that, 1, an alliance between Imperial China and Maoria against New Switzerland is likely; 2, New Switzerland is unlikely to find much in the way of allies to oppose such; 3, that alliance would be capable of carrying out the forcible conquest of New Switzerland, with Maoria willingly absorbing the greater share of casualties in return for ownership of former Swiss Territory; and 4, that, if the resulting power balance is indeed...

Pop            BP       IC             Income
82.1           27      127            $203.20   Polynesia
48.2           26      117            $165.22   Gran Columbia
76.5           27      123            $197.50   Rohan
55.4           21.5   115            $169.36   Orange
00.0           00      000            $000.00   New Switzerland

...then the world is then a rather different place, possibly to the point of being a concern regarding overall game balance.

[Tanthalas]

As I stated, I find it doubtfull that at this point Imperial China would accept your proposal.  Not only are their Relations with the NS improving, there are certian back room deals that would make them less than willing to eliminate the NS.  You could likley form an alliance with RRC, but well they are curently at war with MK (albeit a cold war at the moment), and not nearly as interested in destroying the NS as they are in destroying the MK (they actualy offerd the NS a non agression Pact which I couldnt figure out a way to agree to IC).  As to potential allies, there are other Nations that are equaly as nervous about the agressive Maori stance as the NS, but on that note I better post the begining of NS & MK relationship improval

[Desertfox]

All I can say is don't count your chikens before they are hatched. Just look at the Italo-Zionite war, there was plenty of foreign support for NZ, not because anyone liked them but because no one wanted to see a stronger Italy. Going back to the 2nd Pacific War, when during the peace talks the possibility arose of NS getting the Dutch East Indies, France simply declared that that would be a cause for war, since they would not be able to tolerate such a strong nation.

Play it as you like, but let me warn you. There WILL be foreign support for NS. NS might be seen as a rouge state, but it is the ONE nation mantaining the balance of power in the Pacific.

[Valles]

As I stated, I find it doubtfull that at this point Imperial China would accept your proposal.  Not only are their Relations with the NS improving, there are certian back room deals that would make them less than willing to eliminate the NS.

My understanding of the last published information about the MK's position re: NS was that 'kill them all and salt the earth' would have been an improvement on their relations, being as it doesn't involve torture or the like...

Anyway, an ongoing competition for influence is a perfectly reasonable thing to have, given the situation. Perhaps a bit frustrating for me, but that's fair enough, all else being unequal as is, no? ^_^

France simply declared that that would be a cause for war, since they would not be able to tolerate such a strong nation.

Finding a way to avoid that judgment, in out of character terms as much as in, is pretty much what this thread's about. My current thinking involves a combination of war casualties and infrastructure damage, postwar policies, and selectivity about included territories.

[Desertfox]

First you have to win said war. ;)

NS has seen worse odds and has survived.

[Walter]

NS has seen worse odds and has survived.

DF, I would think that right now, the NS would have much better odds if such a conflict should arise. Yes, they survived worse odds. Think of what they could do when the odds are a lot better. :)

[The Rock Doctor]

Folks, I see nothing to suggest that Valles is asking to ret-con Maoria.  What he appears to be saying is that if his plans were successful, at some point in the future, Maoria would be in the heavy-weight class.

This is perfectly acceptable to me as mod:  Valles' work towards this goal should be entertaining and keep the sim lively.

As for:

Finding a way to avoid that judgment, in out of character terms as much as in, is pretty much what this thread's about. My current thinking involves a combination of war casualties and infrastructure damage, postwar policies, and selectivity about included territories.

...I don't think I can reliably predict Gran Colombian reaction to events that haven't played out yet - especially as there are other players (Tan, obviously, perhaps others) who would be directly influencing the events in question.

[Sachmle]

As to potential allies, there are other Nations that are equaly as nervous about the agressive Maori stance as the NS,

Not like the Swiss are DKB's best friend in the whole wide world, but it's not like I'd like to see a Maoria that could hold its own/crush me...

[Walter]

What he appears to be saying is that if his plans were successful, at some point in the future, Maoria would be in the heavy-weight class.

That's a huge 'if'. To me, it looks more like Maori suicide.

Not like the Swiss are DKB's best friend in the whole wide world, but it's not like I'd like to see a Maoria that could hold its own/crush me...

Well, looking at the DKB relations list, the DKB like the Maori even less than the Swiss. :)

[maddox]

Just to mention, if meddling with Imperial China, somebody is planning a return .

Long Live Emperor Kaili and Empress Mother Longyu.

But , The History of the worl , part one, by "The Dragon".
The old MK, in the Nverse II, had a kind of colony in the Eastern Empire.

The arrival of the Chinese was something of a shock to the Rohirrim, who had little conception of what lay across the ocean to the west. Chinese immigrants seeking a less crowded life with more freedom began making the long voyage across the Pacific, founding what became known as the Eastern Kingdom on Rohan's northern border. Relations were generally cool but peaceful, neither side being particularly eager to interact with the other.

[Phoenix]

An alliance with Maoria would provide interesting options, but the Middle Kingdom has maintained a stance of "we're not conquering, and what happens outside of the Middle Kingdom is just not important enough for us to be bothered with since the entire world is subject to us anyway".

Basically -and I suppose the old hands on this forum do fondly remember my past actions for them to have dragged me back into this game- you will need to role-play real hard if you want the Dragon to stir from its stupor... ;D

[Logi]

The RRC giving support to Maoria would be unlikely. We have enough on our hands and unfortunately for you, NS just isn't something we care very much about at the moment.

There's also that OOC factor of me not wanting other nations to become more powerful. ;)