Exporting BP/Discussion of Iberian sim report

[Korpen]

Roll over BP: 0.0 + 5.5 BP of sheet steel from Japan + 3.0 BP of sheet steel from Italy

As you are not using that AS sheet steel (tin cans, plating & such things) is it not just BP transferee, which we have rules against?

[miketr]

1) The BP's were unused and are hanging around as sheet steel till 1913 H2.  I lack the budget to use them.  This half.. 
2) Its a rather safe bet one of the ship projects I am working on will in use up that sheet steal in their hulls.  The 3 capital ships I am working on come to mind.

My understanding is we can't roll over BP's or directly transfer them but we can store guns, engines, structural steel and or sell the same between each other.  Iberia has 8,500 tons of structurl steel sitting around that it paid nearly $20 for.  I don't see how thats against the rules.

[Korpen]

Iberia has 8,500 tons of structurl steel sitting around that it paid nearly $20 for.  I don't see how thats against the rules.

I do have a real problem with the transfer of any undefined components, as that is de facto BP transfer. So if the structural steel was ordered for a specific ship, then I do not think there is any difference compared buying say the turbines or guns.
But if undefined "structural steel" it is not a finished product, but something that need to be cut, machined, maybe even rolled before being used, something that requires ones own BPs to be in use... 

[Borys]

I transfered "undefined" BP from one 1HY to 2HY.
I thought sheet steel is sheet steel - it is cut and bent appropriately on the slip. No?
Borys

[miketr]

I still have to pay $1 plus the stored 1 BP for the finished product... otherwise the $0.5 for 1 BP would be a very large cost savings instead of a 50% markup in base cost let alone the extra I paid for it.

Korpen please explain how you view the current rules for structural steel?  Its either a tax of $0.5 per PB to allow it to be stored OR it allows BP's to be used for export in hulls which is a 50% cost reduction over home built stuff which is just dumb...

I would also note several nations have or had in storage turbines and guns and then used them on various projects.  I really see no difference.

Michael

[Korpen]

I still have to pay $1 plus 1 BP for the finished product... otherwise the $0.5 for 1 BP would be a very large cost savings instead of a 50% markup in base cost let alone the extra I paid for it.

Korpen please explain how you view the current rules for structural steel?  Its either a tax of $0.5 per PB to allow it to be stored OR it allows BP's to be used for export in hulls which is a 50% cost reduction over home built stuff which is just dumb...

I would also note several nations have or had in storage turbines and guns and then used them on various projects.  I really see no difference.

I do see a major difference, the turbines are a clearly defined component, that cannot be used as anything else. "Sheet metal" or "structural steel" is not. Just take the difference in hull plating between a 25kton BB and a 500ton DD, the hull plates for the latter will be in the ~10mm range, while for a large ship it is usually more then twice as thick.
Structural steel is even worse, as it consists of tens of thousands of components, in a mix that is pretty much unique for a single ship. There are huge differences in load bearing balks in a BB and a small CL for example.

As for the pert about 0,5€ for 1BP worth of structural steel.
Weill I had missed that change, and I think it is just so dumb I will refrain from saying anything more, in an attempt to at least keep some illusion of politeness.

[miketr]

I have a long standing "issue" with the lack of stability over the rules set.  So join the club...  I made my plans with those rules in place, assuming they haven't changed in the mean time of course.

If it will make people happy I have no problem with saying the BP's are for my AC's and BB its more than a safe bet thats where it would end up.

I would point out that a steel plate is a steel plate its cut to final form at the shipyard not the rolling mill.  Some plates are thicker than others, or wider or longer.  Ditto other structural elements.  Also turbines and guns have to reformed to fit; you can't just plug them in.  The classic of HMS Vangaurd had the turrets refurbished before being used.   

[Korpen]

If it will make people happy I have no problem with saying the BP's are for my AC's and BB its more than a safe bet thats where it would end up.

As long as they are marked like that along the entire chain, then no problems.

I would point out that a steel plate is a steel plate its cut to final form at the shipyard not the rolling mill.  Some plates are thicker than others, or wider or longer.  Ditto other structural elements. 

A steel plate is not ONLY a steel plate for constructions either. Not to mention the huge amounts of the ships that is not steel plates, but piping, ventilators, kitchens, machine shops, showers. And I think the final cutting and machining is just as much part of a BP as is the first furnace or iron ore mine. 

Also turbines and guns have to reformed to fit; you can't just plug them in.  The classic of HMS Vangaurd had the turrets refurbished before being used.   

But there one can build the rest so it is pretty much just a plug in.
In vanguards case i suspect the fact that the guns were more then 30 years old might have something to do with it...

But largely I dislike all things that whiff of BP transfer.
So in my mind " 4BP steel and components for AC-1912a" would be fine, while "8,5 of construction steel" would be BP transfer and not fine.

[miketr]

Korpen I worked in a Sheet Metal Shop for a summer and helped out at my grand fathers Machine Shop enough to pick some things; if you are going to follow that logic than we can't transfer anything without it counting towards our BP totals.  As NOTHING arrives as something that can be just plugged unless because of blind luck.  The final assembler has to make various cuts and measurements...  Look at the spreads on ships of the same class between different yards.  Some of the smaller craft such as large and small torpedo boats had a 20% spread or even more between different yards.

We have a macro level game..  How much pain do we want? 

As to Vangaurd, it was for many reasons some to do with changed tech, some to do with raw age, increased protection, etc.

Michael

[ctwaterman]

Thats something I have a problem with - because as an Example the US doesnt build steel at all anymore or at least not in any significant quantity.   But yet the US buys I beams in job lots to build things.

Why is there an Objection to BP Transfers -  Or more in question why is their an objection to 1" Steel Plates which need to be bent and drilled to fit what ever hull form you want.  I can see a limitation on the amount of such plates that can be used to build a ship but they are as much a finished product as the turrets and engines.   The US in WWII build 1" STS Steel Plates they were used in everything from the outside hulls of Liberty Ships, to Light Cruisers, and Aircraft Carriers, to the Internal Bulk Heads and Splinter protection on Battle Ships.   A good Steel Plate of known quantity is a finished product and you are paying $1 per 1000 Ton of it to have it drilled, and bent to the form you need.  All that is usually done at the ship yard and not at the Steel Mill.

[miketr]

I consider the matter closed at this point and will ignore all additional post on this subject from non-mods until rules section is changed.

I play the game to have fun...  not to get dragged into rules lawyering...

[miketr]

Please fight the meaning of the economic rules out here and have everyone agree that they know what the rules are even if they don't think they are reasonable.  Stop clogging the budget threads...

Michael

[P3D]

The original intention of the rules was to limit BP trade. Of course people started to have clever ideas how to go around it, or set up deals that the net amount of BP changing would be zero.

Of course, the best idea would have been to dispense with the BP concept altogether, but then there were huge discrepancies between shipbuilding capacity (as defined by available slips & docks) and economic power in the original N2verse - where my Orange was IIRC the second behind France (undefined) due to having nowhere else to spend starting Medium Factory Points but on nava infrastructure.

[Borys]

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=121.msg4172#msg4172

The international standard for foreign trades is $. Whatever currency it signifies. BP is considered the limit of heavy building capacity of a nation, thus cannot be traded.

Old ships can be sold for pure $ or bartered. You cannot trade raw Build Points, You have to exchange a finished product for another finished product, no shipping of structural steel plates overseas that are even made to the wrong specifications, has nonstandard thickness, and generally unknown quality.
Finished products are complete ships, rails, artillery ammunition, or some ship component like guns, machinery and armor plates.

The Nation who ordered the ship provides the money required to lay the ship down, plus whatever profits the money-hungry shipyards and navies insist on.

To keep it simple, the profit goes directly into the military budget of the builder nation.

Hmm, it has been there all along, without me noticing.

So, like stated elsewere - it is enough for me and the buyer/recepient of the BP to declare "these are parts for ship X".

So, GC and Iberia - please state what ships these BP are intended for.

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

I've merged Mike's exporting BP thread with the discussion in the Iberian sim report on the topic.