The Hague Convention on the High Seas

Started by Darman, September 10, 2013, 03:49:22 PM

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Guinness

The Ottomans don't have standing diplomatic presence (at least at the Ambassadorial rank) in most of Europe. Exceptions: Austria and Russia.

I expect most European capitals have an Ottoman mission headed by a career bureaucrat who does not have the authority to do much more than day to day consular business and message passing. Anything more requires dispatch of diplomats specific to the task from Constantinople.

This is a symptom of the state of affairs in the Empire, where the Sultan has absolute power in theory, but in practice is constrained by the over-large bureaucracy, and also a symptom of the Ottoman outlook, which largely ignores nations other than immediate threats, like Austria and Russia, and maybe the rising Italian state.

Of course, with the construction of the Suez Canal, this is likely to change.  ;)


Walter

QuoteThis is a symptom of the state of affairs in the Empire, where the Sultan has absolute power in theory, but in practice is constrained by the over-large bureaucracy
Maybe the Sultan should go there in person. :)
Quotewhich largely ignores nations other than immediate threats, like Austria and Russia, and maybe the rising Italian state.
*hides Italy behind the curtains*
We're... uhm... we're... a state of... many independent states... We're like totally no threat to you, almighty Sultan. :D
Quoteconstruction of the Suez Canal
What construction of the Suez Canal?

... well I guess it really depends on when these talks are being held, but maybe they're being held after the completion of the Suez Canal. You never know...

Guinness

My understanding is that this is at the very start of the sim, so 1870, and we've stipulated that the Canal was completed as historical, so 1869 (or in other words, more or less right now).

And yes, speaking OOC, this is one episode in the evolution of the Ottomans into a functioning member of the diplomatic community.

At any rate, the Sultan is not partial to leaving the safety and comfort of Dolmabahçe Palace.

Walter

In that case, "existence" would be better than "construction".

The Sultan should take the risk. He can't hide in his Palace forever. :)

Jefgte

In the actual position, the French Foreign Minister, Théophile Delcassé hope to see the Ottoman Empire Delegation to the Naval Conference.
Suez & Dardanelle are important & Ottoman Empire is directly concerned.
"You French are fighting for money, while we English are fighting for honor!"
"Everyone is fighting for what they miss. "
Surcouf

Darman

#20
Quote from:  Foreign Minister Limburg's note to all representatives
1 July 1869
The Kingdom of the Netherlands wishes to invite discussion of the following subjects during this conference, which agenda will be followed strictly, it requires a 2/3 majority to add a new subject to the agenda and the Netherlands' representatives, as hosts of the conference, retain the right to determine the scope of discussion of the various subjects. 
The first subject concerns the rights and privileges accorded to combatant prisoners of war taken at sea, as well as civilian detainees taken at sea during the course of maritime combat actions, as well as the proper treatment of the wounded. 
It is requested that discussion then move on to the proper identification and treatment of ships designated as hospital ships, run by government military or civilian authorities, both neutral as well as belligerent. 
Discussion will then be allowed on international piracy, navigation of straits and canals, and the legal status of blockades. 
Regulations for the use of electric and automatic torpedoes [mines] must be decided upon lest this scourge present a significant hazard to navigation the world over. 
The Conference will end with a discussion of the roles of neutral ports and shipping and the obligations of neutrals as well of belligerents towards neutrals, especially the construction and arming of vessels intended for delivery to belligerents in neutral ports.   

[Edit: my apologies to KWorld]

Darman

*If sick, wounded, or shipwrecked persons are taken on board a neutral vessel of war, every possible precaution must be taken that they can not again take part in the operations of the war.

*The shipwrecked, wounded, or sick of one of the belligerents who fall into the power of the other are prisoners of war. The captor must decide, according to circumstances, whether to keep them, or to send them to a port of his own country, to a neutral port, or even to an enemy port. In this last case, prisoners thus repatriated cannot serve again while the war lasts.

* The shipwrecked, sick, or wounded, who are landed at a neutral sort with the consent of the local authorities, must, unless an arrangement is made to the contrary between the neutral State and the belligerent States, be guarded by the neutral State so that they can not again take part in the operations of the war.
The expenses of caring for them in hospital. and interning them shall be borne by the State to which the shipwrecked, sick, or wounded persons belong.

* After every engagement, the two belligerents, so far as military interests permit, shall take steps to look for the shipwrecked, sick, and wounded, and to protect them, as well as the dead, against pillage and ill treatment.
They shall see that the burial, whether by land or sea, or cremation of the dead shall be preceded by a careful examination of the corpse.

* Each belligerent shall send, as early as possible, to the authorities of their country, navy, or army the military marks or documents of identity found on the dead and a list of the names of the sick and wounded gathered up by him.

The belligerents shall keep each other informed as to internments and transfers as well as to the admissions into hospital and deaths which have occurred among the sick and wounded in their hands. They shall collect all the objects of personal use, valuables, letters, &c., which are found in the captured ships, or which have been left by the sick or wounded who died in hospital, in order to have them forwarded to the persons concerned by the authorities of their own country.


KWorld

The US Naval Attache' commented,

"On the issue of repatriated prisoners, the treaty should probably state that repatriated prisoners can not again take part in operations of the war, unless other arrangements are made by the warring sides."

"Also, of course only soldiers or sailors or members of the opposing sides government should be considered prisoners of war, as opposed to enemy civilians, unless they were engaged in some act that would change their status."

Darman

The proposed provisions have been edited to take into account the concerns of the representatives of the United States.  If there are no other recommended additions or deletions then a poll will be taken to seek approval for this section of the treaty. 
Quote
*If sick, wounded, or shipwrecked persons are taken on board a neutral vessel of war, every possible precaution must be taken that they can not again take part in the operations of the war.

*The shipwrecked, wounded, or sick combatants of one of the belligerents who fall into the power of the other are prisoners of war. Civilians of belligerent nations are never to be considered prisoners of war unless engaged in actions of a military nature, or actively aiding and abetting their country's war effort.  The captor must decide, according to circumstances, whether to keep them, or to send them to a port of his own country, to a neutral port, or even to an enemy port. In this last case, prisoners thus repatriated can not again take part in operations of the war, unless other arrangements are made by the warring sides.  Civilians rescued from captured vessels should be sent to their home country wherever possible, or its nearest representative port.  If that is not possible, then transportation to a neutral or belligerent port must be guaranteed, with provisions for them to continue their journey to friendly territory. 

* The shipwrecked, sick, or wounded, who are landed at a neutral sort with the consent of the local authorities, must, unless an arrangement is made to the contrary between the neutral State and the belligerent States, be guarded by the neutral State so that they can not again take part in the operations of the war.
The expenses of caring for them in hospital. and interning them shall be borne by the State to which the shipwrecked, sick, or wounded persons belong.

* After every engagement, the two belligerents, so far as military interests permit, shall take steps to look for the shipwrecked, sick, and wounded, and to protect them, as well as the dead, against pillage and ill treatment.
They shall see that the burial, whether by land or sea, or cremation of the dead shall be preceded by a careful examination of the corpse.

* Each belligerent shall send, as early as possible, to the authorities of their country, navy, or army the military marks or documents of identity found on the dead and a list of the names of the sick and wounded gathered up by him.

The belligerents shall keep each other informed as to internments and transfers as well as to the admissions into hospital and deaths which have occurred among the sick and wounded in their hands. They shall collect all the objects of personal use, valuables, letters, &c., which are found in the captured ships, or which have been left by the sick or wounded who died in hospital, in order to have them forwarded to the persons concerned by the authorities of their own country.