1920 Rules Changes (advanced draft)

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well I still think it's rather problematic that on 12/31/1919 I have 9 functional airfields costing $9.50 and 0.50 BP and serving 1100 airplanes... as most of my planes and fields are still the historical 1914 types... and 4x type 2 hangers costing $8

yet on 1/1/20 I'll have that hefty 0.50BP to spend on the new model airfields, which will count as a single $3 type 2 airfield capable of holding 240 aircraft.

This is where I want to point to the BP that went laying unused from 1908-1914 because Bavaria didn't have anywhere to really spend it (years behind the times, maxed Mil budget, Bory's storyline restriction on naval growth, lousy naval tech).  Had BP been required at the beginning, this would not be an issue. Heck in 1914 alone there was 17 BP left unused.

[Guinness]

This is where I want to point to the BP that went laying unused from 1908-1914 because Bavaria didn't have anywhere to really spend it (years behind the times, maxed Mil budget, Bory's storyline restriction on naval growth, lousy naval tech).  Had BP been required at the beginning, this would not be an issue. Heck in 1914 alone there was 17 BP left unused.

I've got to question this, solely because it's impossible to spend BP without also spending $. If we were using the new rules then, a Type 3 airfield would cost $4 and 1 BP. Are you saying that you didn't have money to spend to catch up to your available BP then, but you would have if you had to build airfields? Is it just that you are stuck with 1910 tech aircraft and their airfields then?

I see no reason why nations without "modern" aircraft can't persist with their old airfields bought under the old rules until they are required to upgrade, so this will be clarified in the updated rules when they appear after the calendar turns to 1920. Considering that large airfields under the new rules are much cheaper in terms of $ compared to the old ones, I don't anticipate this being a long-ranged problem. The idea is not to penalize any specific nations, but to transition to a workable system for the future.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I've got to question this, solely because it's impossible to spend BP without also spending $. If we were using the new rules then, a Type 3 airfield would cost $4 and 1 BP. Are you saying that you didn't have money to spend to catch up to your available BP then, but you would have if you had to build airfields? Is it just that you are stuck with 1910 tech aircraft and their airfields then?

I built both airfields and hangers in that "catchup" time period, however there was no need for BP expenditures for either in that time period, albeit it was available. - so I spent $, and could have spent BP as well...but it wasn't needed back then.



Also I was keeping far more troops active than I needed during the "catchup" period, which helped use up $- but could easily have been changed if more $ was needed.   Likewise I built up a stockpile, because the rules don't mention troops come with 6mo of ammo so I rather thought it was needed... I could have easily funded airfields from that instead

There really wasn't much I could *do* with the BP in that time. Even now I rent out a fair amount of industrial capacity.  I Couldn't sell it or trade for tech- everyone had moved on and was years down the line. While the naval tech was severely antiquated..and the storyline was the Bavarian navy was brand new and couldn't field many trained personal to man vessels anyhow.  

There is only so much you can spend on army and forts, had BP been needed for airfields, and more airfields needed, the resources were there at that time.
thus my objection to waking up in 1920..when my expenditures are a bit more constrained by longer term projects, and suddenly needing to spend more $ and BP

edits

[ctwaterman]

I think this works prety much both ways for everyone Italy has 9 1916 Pattern Airfields and 4 Type 2 Air Ships Stations.   To Support about 960 Front Line Aircraft and 400 Training Aircraft.

Total Cost of this has been $1.5 and .5Bp per airfield.

I think we need to go with a set airfield type not if I build a huge number of planes I get a few huge Airfields that they didnt pay for.   The Type 1 Airfield is the closest cost to the the 1916 Airfield so 1916 Airfields become type 1,  1915 Airfields become Type 0's as well as airship hangers.

I know this is going to be costly to those who have really huge airforces but then again I believe the update included the ability for them to scrap some of their aricraft at the new Costs and they can use that to build some new airfields.   I  honestly think this change is necessary and my proposal is to try and make it hurt as equally as possible.

Japan and the RRC are the two nations with the largest airforces and its obvious that both either need more airfileds or less aircraft or a combination of the two.  What wouldnt be fair is to award them a huge number of the largest field types.  So my proposal is based on standardization we pick one system and go with it no deviding aircraft by the number of Airfields.

[damocles]

This is one of the reasons, I went over my own reports five times to try to conform with 1920 rules as proposed.

I still don't think I've got it exactly right, but I think I'm close. The upshot is that the Dutch are encircled by others who have twice or six times the airpower at half to one fourth the cost. 

The conversion factors are going to be severe for some players, I'm just saying....

<cough> 7000+ aircraft <cough>

D.

[Logi]

Eh, not really, about 1/5 of the whole airforce is obsolete planes, so ~ 5600 usable and modern planes. Alleviated somewhat by the fact the RRC has the most airfields of anyone and they are all 1916 techs.

If you think  the RRC is big.... wait till you see the closing 10,000 planes of Japan.

EDIT:

Counting things: I have 4000 small planes, 800 medium planes, 400 large planes. That's a total of 5200 planes. (Obsolete planes scrapped in this example).

400 small (6 group)
0 medium (2 group)
0 medium (2 group)

So I need 10 type 3 airfields. I have enough BP invested in my current twelve airfields to have 6 type 3 airfields. Gonna have a hell-lot of type 0 airfields until I can get upgrade.

[ctwaterman]

Yes but I believe you had 12 1916 Airfields which means if they are converted to say Type 1 as I propose you can support... *does some math on insufficent caffinee dossage*
12 * 120 single engine planes = 1440 Planes.

Now if you  simply Scrap  2 groups of those Aircraft [1200 planes]  this would give you a $2.25 and .45 BP this is a profit on the aircraft and well on the way to paying to upgrade atleast 2 of those airfields so they could support Groups of 600 aircraft instead of wings of 120.

If you scarp all the 1910 Tech level aircraft at the same time I think you will find that you profited from the situation and with a small BP investment self fund an upgrade to atleast 4 Type 2 Airfields and 8 Type 1 Airfields, plus build a bunch of Type 0 Airfields as well.  This would allow you to support 3360 Aircraft plus what ever you put on the Type 0 Airfields.

This is an example of making the best of the situation.

Charles

[ctwaterman]

This is one of the reasons, I went over my own reports five times to try to conform with 1920 rules as proposed.

I still don't think I've got it exactly right, but I think I'm close. The upshot is that the Dutch are encircled by others who have twice or six times the airpower at half to one fourth the cost. 

The conversion factors are going to be severe for some players, I'm just saying....

<cough> 7000+ aircraft <cough>

D.

Hmmm Damocles you do realize that the ESC and Bavaria are supposed to be your ALLIES... as members of the Leipzig accords and the Rhine river trading association.   You are hardly surrounded in Europe as Frances Airforce is functional but uses Italian Aircraft at the New Prices I cant afford to keep building huge amounts of such aircraft. 

The Price of a Thousand Aircraft just went up to a reasonable rate of $ and BP

Charles

[Logi]

Yes but I believe you had 12 1916 Airfields which means if they are converted to say Type 1

So I got somehow dicked out of 3 BP. That's 1/3 of my biannual output. I need that BP badly. Maybe not a big deal for those with a lot of BP, but the RRC has a very small amount of BP.

----

There are 900 small planes that are obsolete, 600 medium planes that are obsolete.

So that's approx: 1.5 Small Groups and 1.5 medium Groups.

Scrapping for 100%, I get:

$15 + 3 BP. Ok, so I make it up. But that's at 100% and I severely doubt it will be scrapped for 100% value.


But problem, I'm in the middle of a war where airpower is used very very often. How the hell will I adjust in the midst of a war. Scrapping would take time and upgrading the airfields would take time too. So basically we have during 1920, in the middle of a war, I lose a great deal of my air power.

That is the type of mythical occurrence that makes generals etc. go "wtf?".

In that case, I propose that we get instant builds for the transferring of airfields, scrapping, and upgrading for just 1920/H1. That way, for those of us in war, we don't have mysterious events happening and sudden cuts in the number of airfields usable.

EDIT: Btw, I just noticed but... Japan has only 10 airfields. Of those 6 are 1916 tech, and 4 are 1914 tech. And he has way more planes than me :-\

[ctwaterman]

Yes but I believe you had 12 1916 Airfields which means if they are converted to say Type 1

So I got somehow dicked out of 3 BP. That's 1/3 of my biannual output. I need that BP badly. Maybe not a big deal for those with a lot of BP, but the RRC has a very small amount of BP.

----

There are 900 small planes that are obsolete, 600 medium planes that are obsolete.

So that's approx: 1.5 Small Groups and 1.5 medium Groups.

Scrapping for 100%, I get:

$15 + 3 BP. Ok, so I make it up. But that's at 100% and I severely doubt it will be scrapped for 100% value.


But problem, I'm in the middle of a war where airpower is used very very often. How the hell will I adjust in the midst of a war. Scrapping would take time and upgrading the airfields would take time too. So basically we have during 1920, in the middle of a war, I lose a great deal of my air power.

That is the type of mythical occurrence that makes generals etc. go "wtf?".

In that case, I propose that we get instant builds for the transferring of airfields, scrapping, and upgrading for just 1920/H1. That way, for those of us in war, we don't have mysterious events happening and sudden cuts in the number of airfields usable.

EDIT: Btw, I just noticed but... Japan has only 10 airfields. Of those 6 are 1916 tech, and 4 are 1914 tech. And he has way more planes than me :-\

Scraping is done at 15% not 100%.....

Yes Japan has as much of a problem if not more so then you or even I do....

Example Italy:
9 1913 Historic 1916 Tech Airfields can support a total a total of 1080 Aircraft Of Single Engine Planes
Also 6 Type 2 AirStations which become Type 0 Airfield and can support a single partial Squadron and some Zeppelins.

The Problem is simple I started with ~700 Single Engine Aircraft 1913 Tech, 300 1910 Tech, and in addition I had 150 LRE [Large Aircraft] 1913 tech, and 200 [Medium] Twin Engine Aircraft 1913 Tech and 100 1910 Tech.  So I need more airfields and I need them now.  In addition I have over 1000 more Combat Aircraft under construction at this time  mostly I viewed them as replacement aircraft.

I think you like me will find that Combat Attrition will have helped us fit more of our planes onto our airfields then we thought  :'(

I admit actively being involved in a war is going to complicate your situation but I am also at war and 3 BP is exactly 1/4 of Italys BP output so I agree it hurts alot.  I never promised it wasnt going to hurt just that my Proposal was going to hurt as equaly and as equitably as possible.

Nobody Gets Type 2 or Type 3 or Even Type 4 Airfields unless we give them to everyone equally..... :o
As an Example you paid $1.5 and .5 BP for airfields that under the new rules would cost you $2 and .25 BP.

The Alternative is we do a mixture of Type 2 and Type 1 Airfields but that is only going to help  out a little bit.  But the point is to make sure we make it as fair across the entire spectrum as possible.

I agree the original proposal of Type 0 Airfields really really hurts,  my proposal will take some of the sting out but nothing is going to completely take the pain away if we are to make this at all fair. :'(

Charles

[damocles]

Where am I fighting, now, Charles?

But as to Europe, you see that the actual Luchtmacht there in Europe is about 200 aircraft? Most of the rest of the force is either in the islands or in the NOI or elsewhere*. The last time I looked, there were six or so Dutch air complexes and about 1000 aircraft in the official RLM OOB.  

* Guess.

The point is that when I worked the KoN air power by the 1920 rules as I lept reading them tweaked, I kept wondering how I was supposed to afford a 1000 plane air-force? Then I had to ask how the RRC or Japan was able to field an air-force 8 times that size?

C'est la guerre. All I have to do is play the game and let the rules run themselves.  Things will even out somehow.  Remember WW I France never had more than 1500 or so combat machines, and never more than that many trainers because of an airfield and fuel shortage? I think that the new rules will reflect that limit nicely. Most of us middle rank guys will find 1000-1500 planes tough to do, and that is proper.    

As for adjusting in the middle of a war to the rules change? I went with the 1920 rules "as proposed" to avoid that "inflated air force" problem to be reconciled before the war and I'm paying for it now in massive generated casualties.

That was a CHOICE at the front end to keep the game fair and reasonable and to keep such bookkeeping nightmares for me at a minimum. So when "some" air forces have to shrink under the rules, post war or during a war? That was a player choice.

D.

 

[Logi]

I admit actively being involved in a war is going to complicate your situation but I am also at war and 3 BP is exactly 1/4 of Italys BP output so I agree it hurts alot.  I never promised it wasnt going to hurt just that my Proposal was going to hurt as equaly and as equitably as possible.

Your war will most likely be over by 1920. Mine won't. Which means, suddenly mysterious things happen during the war, whereas you wouldn't have such mysterious events during a war.

Nobody Gets Type 2 or Type 3 or Even Type 4 Airfields unless we give them to everyone equally..... Shocked
As an Example you paid $1.5 and .5 BP for airfields that under the new rules would cost you $2 and .25 BP.

I believe I went over how losing a BP is a much larger problem than losing $$.

---Will reply to rest tomorrow----

The point is that when I worked the KoN air power by the 1920 rules as I lept reading them tweaked, I kept wondering how I was supposed to afford a 1000 plane air-force? Then I had to ask how the RRC or Japan was able to field an air-force 8 times that size?

Did you build you airforce over 6+ years? I didn't think so. Also, take a look at your population size, then at the RRC. Of course, I have no comment about Japan.

C'est la guerre. All I have to do is play the game and let the rules run themselves.  Things will even out somehow.  Remember WW I France never had more than 1500 or so combat machines, and never more than that many trainers because of an airfield and fuel shortage? I think that the new rules will reflect that limit nicely. Most of us middle rank guys will find 1000-1500 planes tough to do, and that is proper.

1500 of my "modern planes" are trainers. I do not have many fuel shortages or airfield shortages. As I've stated before, I have the most number of airfields, and they are all modern airfields. And btw, there are numbers and staistics that were posted over and over a while ago that prove that statement wrong.


-----

I do not like nor favor being stuck with what I perceive as the blunt end of the stick. If I magically get 3 BP as consolation for the mysteriously lost 3 BP worth, I will reconsider. But regardless, the circumstances are different.

Italy has it's safe little haven and does not have to participate in the massive BP spending etc. that the RRC needs to survive. Therefore, the 11.5 BP Italy makes biannual is considerably more free to be used than the RRC 9. We can go over the math again CT, if you would like. I believe last time we went over this math, we concluded Italy had a good 3~5 BP more to freely spend than the RRC.*

I regret to say, that this whole deal and getting the blunt end of the stick does not stick well with me, and may cause unfortunate circumstances and my absence.

* I might be wrong and confusing with the discussion on $$ surpluses.

[ctwaterman]

Where am I fighting, now, Charles?

But as to Europe, you see that the actual Luchtmacht there in Europe is about 200 aircraft? Most of the rest of the force is either in the islands or in the NOI or elsewhere*. The last time I looked, there were six or so Dutch air complexes and about 1000 aircraft in the official RLM OOB.  

* Guess.

The point is that when I worked the KoN air power by the 1920 rules as I lept reading them tweaked, I kept wondering how I was supposed to afford a 1000 plane air-force? Then I had to ask how the RRC or Japan was able to field an air-force 8 times that size?

C'est la guerre. All I have to do is play the game and let the rules run themselves.  Things will even out somehow.  Remember WW I France never had more than 1500 or so combat machines, and never more than that many trainers because of an airfield and fuel shortage? I think that the new rules will reflect that limit nicely. Most of us middle rank guys will find 1000-1500 planes tough to do, and that is proper.    

As for adjusting in the middle of a war to the rules change? I went with the 1920 rules "as proposed" to avoid that "inflated air force" problem to be reconciled before the war and I'm paying for it now in massive generated casualties.

That was a CHOICE at the front end to keep the game fair and reasonable and to keep such bookkeeping nightmares for me at a minimum. So when "some" air forces have to shrink under the rules, post war or during a war? That was a player choice.

D.

;D  yes you are violating the rules of warfare and fighting a land war in Asia.   But I see your point.   Yes the Maintenance cost for these Airforces just went up expodentialy [sp?] anyway I know the mainteance cost on my 1200 to 1500 Airforce will  now be about what I paid for the planes to begin with so yes I have no intention of even trying to maintain a 3000+ aircraft airforce unless I am at war. 

[ctwaterman]

Example of Italia Aeronautica in 1920
4 Wings of Long Range Recon/heavy Bombers [160 aircraft]
2 Wings of Twin Engined Ground/Naval Attack Bombers [160 Aircraft]
2 Groups of Single Engined Aircraft Scout/Recon/Ground attack [1200 Aircraft]
1 Wing of Single Engine training aircraft [120 aircraft]
1 Wing Twin Engined training aircraft [80 aircraft]
Total Aircrfat is 1720 Aircraft

This will cost $.15 for each wing and $.75 for each group total maintenance cost of
$2.70   this will go up to $3.60 as I transition to 1917 Historical 1918 Aircraft. 

So just a note my peace time army mainteance before the start of this war was only $9.54 so this airforce represents and increase of almost 33% of my Military budget expenditures those with 5000+ aircraft this has got to hurt?  ;)

[damocles]

Where am I fighting, now, Charles?

But as to Europe, you see that the actual Luchtmacht there in Europe is about 200 aircraft? Most of the rest of the force is either in the islands or in the NOI or elsewhere*. The last time I looked, there were six or so Dutch air complexes and about 1000 aircraft in the official RLM OOB.  

* Guess.

The point is that when I worked the KoN air power by the 1920 rules as I kept reading them tweaked, I kept wondering how I was supposed to afford a 1000 plane air-force? Then I had to ask how the RRC or Japan was able to field an air-force 8 times that size?

C'est la guerre. All I have to do is play the game and let the rules run themselves.  Things will even out somehow.  Remember WW I France never had more than 1500 or so combat machines, and never more than that many trainers because of an airfield and fuel shortage? I think that the new rules will reflect that limit nicely. Most of us middle rank guys will find 1000-1500 planes tough to do, and that is proper.    

As for adjusting in the middle of a war to the rules change? I went with the 1920 rules "as proposed" to avoid that "inflated air force" problem to be reconciled before the war and I'm paying for it now in massive generated casualties.

That was a CHOICE at the front end to keep the game fair and reasonable and to keep such bookkeeping nightmares for me at a minimum. So when "some" air forces have to shrink under the rules, post war or during a war? That was a player choice.

D.

;D  yes you are violating the rules of warfare and fighting a land war in Asia.   But I see your point.   Yes the Maintenance cost for these Airforces just went up expodentialy [sp?] anyway I know the mainteance cost on my 1200 to 1500 Airforce will  now be about what I paid for the planes to begin with so yes I have no intention of even trying to maintain a 3000+ aircraft airforce unless I am at war.  

CT, I agree.

Logi, Many of those airfields you had were flooded. Many of your aircraft if not moved should have been destroyed.

Come on...*

There are reasons for MK strategic decisions.  

Where are you getting oil again? China doesn't have any. I know where the MK gets theirs... 8)

* That's a free bookkeeping gift I gave you to balance the books to the 3000 or so aircraft that you actually should be able to field.

As for 6 years of buildup, the KoN had 3 years when I took it on. Under the old rules I thought 1500 planes was pushing it. Under the 1920 rules 1000 planes is pushing it. Under the 1920 rules, the RRC should realistically have what? 3000 planes?