Quick and dirty design. The ship would be designed in NS but built in New Zion. If it was built. What does New Zion have in terms of infrastructure?
Jerusalem, New Zion Battle Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
12,621 t light; 13,347 t standard; 14,025 t normal; 14,568 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
551.84 ft / 550.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
168.20 m / 167.64 m x 21.34 m x 7.77 m
Armament:
8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,460 lbs / 2,930 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
8 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 35,235 shp / 26,285 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,221 tons
Complement:
643 - 837
Cost:
£1.344 million / $5.377 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 807 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 4,402 tons, 31.4 %
- Belts: 2,010 tons, 14.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,393 tons, 9.9 %
- Armour Deck: 949 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,602 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,710 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,404 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,569 lbs / 7,515 Kg = 24.9 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.32 ft / 5.28 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.6 %
Waterplane Area: 25,652 Square feet or 2,383 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 711 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Should this be laid down in New Zion, the Reich might decide to take pre-emptive action.
(210mm shells + dockyard = Ship-shattering Ka-Booms)
8)
I would think they would have a more defensive minded fleet, probably with relatively showllow draft depending on how deep that rift is in Africa.
Quote from: Ithekro on April 12, 2007, 06:19:23 PM
I would think they would have a more defensive minded fleet, probably with relatively showllow draft depending on how deep that rift is in Africa.
Bottomless.
Borys
I do not think Zion has mcuh heavy industry. It is probably limited to lvl-0/1 drydocks to repair ships purchased abroad, and a fraction of BP.
Not if NS can convince them that they NEED this ship! ;D Swampy, Im just going to have to convinve them to lay down this ship. That way no one will complain when I pre-empt that Firajistan Super Cruiser...
Updated version with an extra knot and Caliph Guns.
Jerusalem, New Zion (Swiss designed) Battle Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
12,404 t light; 13,108 t standard; 13,779 t normal; 14,316 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
552.19 ft / 550.00 ft x 71.00 ft x 24.70 ft (normal load)
168.31 m / 167.64 m x 21.64 m x 7.53 m
Armament:
8 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (4x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,972 lbs / 2,255 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,881 shp / 30,497 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 5,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,207 tons
Complement:
635 - 826
Cost:
£1.216 million / $4.865 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 622 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 4,530 tons, 32.9 %
- Belts: 1,966 tons, 14.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,299 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,203 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,858 tons, 13.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,324 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,376 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,333 lbs / 7,862 Kg = 34.7 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.64 ft / 5.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.8 %
Waterplane Area: 26,018 Square feet or 2,417 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 661 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I like the new version.. seems cheap but speedy.
QuoteI do not think Zion has mcuh heavy industry. It is probably limited to lvl-0/1 drydocks to repair ships purchased abroad, and a fraction of BP.
Shouldnt we keep it as a Potential Player Nation? I would think 3 BPs, and say between $50-70 should be adequate. Allows some shipbuilding but not too much.
A smaller, cheaper, less threatning version. This is a prestige project, nothing more.
Jerusalem, New Zion (Swiss designed) Battle Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
9,900 t light; 10,465 t standard; 11,055 t normal; 11,527 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
552.19 ft / 550.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 20.10 ft (normal load)
168.31 m / 167.64 m x 21.34 m x 6.13 m
Armament:
6 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,972 lbs / 1,802 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 149
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 305.00 ft / 92.96 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 245.00 ft / 74.68 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 305.00 ft / 92.96 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35,827 shp / 26,727 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 5,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,062 tons
Complement:
538 - 700
Cost:
£0.992 million / $3.966 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 497 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 3,013 tons, 27.3 %
- Belts: 1,287 tons, 11.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 734 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 949 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,629 tons, 14.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,622 tons, 41.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,155 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 140 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,787 lbs / 6,707 Kg = 29.6 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.64 ft / 5.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.3 %
Waterplane Area: 25,652 Square feet or 2,383 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 608 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Well the truth seem to be that they themselves can't build it...but the Swiss can build it for them using Swiss BP but Zion funds. (With only 1,000 tons produced a year it would take a very long time for Zion to build any of these ships.)
If Firanj and New Zion are to be player nations, why are you guys designing navies for them?
Ahoj!
They have nothing else to sim, so they are designing proxy navies.
And for the time being we are undermanned, with no prospective players for those countires on the horison.
Borys
If that's the case, I'd rather see the moderators sponsor design competitions than for inidividual players to adopt NPCs that might somehow come to be satellites or proxies to the PCs.
QuoteIf that's the case, I'd rather see the moderators sponsor design competitions than for inidividual players to adopt NPCs that might somehow come to be satellites or proxies to the PCs.
I agree, also, design competitions are fun :)
I still think they need more BPs otherwise it wont be a viable Potential Player Nation.
QuoteIf Firanj and New Zion are to be player nations, why are you guys designing navies for them?
The DKB offered Firajistan a nice design. NS is just returning the favor, offering the Jews an even nicer design. ;D Note my design would come with no strings attached and the plans would be free, hard to beat that deal.
The budding DKB/NS rivalry is amusing, I give you that.
New Zion, with the Italians and the Deutsche Kaiserreigh as imperialistic neighbors, and the Caliphate bend on religious righteousnessNew Zion has every reason to invest in GOOD coastal defences and a huge, good equiped and trained army.
So, the New Zion elders, among the best busnessmen on the world are interested in these matters, and do ,on regular base, send out internatial design competitions. But strangely enough, no winner was ever build.
Firanj is sort of that thorn type NPC. There to keep a PC in check. With the finding of the old Caliphate vessels, the only new designs are for the Lakes (which wouldn't have been covered in the earlier sim as there were no huge lakes in Australia) and the supercruisers to annoy the Swiss.
I don't know if Firanj will be a real PC nation, I've more or less left the interal working alone and just focused on the fleet design to keep the Swiss occupied. New Zion seems like it can't be a real PC nation...it is just way to poor to be anything until maybe the 1930s.
But why should it be so poor? One of the reasons we restarted was to give new players a chance. And if all the NPCs are that poor where will they start? I think each of the NPCs should have at least a fighting chance not too much but then again not to little, otherwise PC will just be able to run NPCs roughshod.
Ahoj!
The world has its China's and Russia's or France's, and it has its San Marinos, Luxemburgs, Liberias ...
Borys
I don't think this New Zion was meant to be a player nation. The two-three larger Indian nations, Persia, now limited Khazaria, Eygpt, Peru, the Union del Sur-America (Isn't someone playing Italy?), Maoria could be one or many smaller nations, and that white area in Africa (Nigeria?). Firanj maybe at some point as well, maybe Kiev, Siam, New Zion, and Liberia.
NZ could be a PC for somebody wanting something small, but until then it should be 'kept up to date' at least with regards to its fleet (IMHO, the NPCs should be pretty much 'turn-key packages' with regard to their naval forces at least).
I agree that the majority of the NZ's treasury will be aimed at land defences (vs. Egypt, likely, primarily, then the Reich, then the Italians, Dutch and French). I would expect that the 'inherited' CofC battleships are in sorry shape, while the ex-Abyssinian ships would be better maintained but woefully obsolete. Torpedobooten and gunboats would be the first priority, then small cruisers. Perhaps one 'national pride' large ship built early, but that would likely lead to covert* or overt action against it; the Reich is willing to tolerate the horsefly on its flank only as long as it refrains from biting...
* - Abwehr. They're everywhere you want to be. ;D
Enterprising Jews conveting a round battleship into an aircraft carrier....wait, no, no, too short a strip...mobile airship carrier? Still too short....
Quote from: Ithekro on April 13, 2007, 12:48:48 PM
Enterprising Jews conveting a round battleship into an aircraft carrier....wait, no, no, too short a strip...mobile airship carrier? Still too short....
Auto-gyro carrier, perhaps? ;)
I know that WW has made use of AG's; I don't know if they'll show up here.
What infrastructure will New Zion have? I know Abbysinia had considerable, around 2-3 HBPs.
This is what I have for the Caliphate and Ethiopia (old):
Caliphate
Capital: Cairo
Goverment: Caliphate
Economy: 7 HBP, 5 MBP
Manpower: 19 MP 76 million
Ethiopia
Capital: Addis Ababa
Goverment: Monarchy
Economy: 1 MBP
Population: 2 MP 8 million
substracting 2 HBPs and 30 million for Farijistan there's still 5 HBPs and 46 million people not accounted for.
I would say New Zion could get 2-3 BP, $48, and 24 million. Smaller than Farijistan but still big enough to annoy and to form a potential player nation.
New Zion have 18 million pop, 9IC, 0.5BP, $19.8 revenue. Based on historical figures and being generous. I am ignoring Dougwise's figures for a PC nation, as he did effectively nothing. The same applies for Nigeria - which is an even more backward colony/third world power.
Egypt is around 3BP, 25-30 million and a revenue around $50.
Firanj is somewhat less powerful.
P3D
Those figures make New Zion unplayable, which should not be the aim here, in fact with those figures, NZ couldn't even afford an army/Navy big enough to hold Egypt, or any other nation off.
New Zion is not supposed to be a player country. There's enough of them available. It is protected by Egypt against the Italians, and by Italy against the French. $20 is enough to maintain 5 corps, which, on the defensive, is enough to discourage any would-be attackers. Neither Italy nor DKB has sufficient harbor infrastructure to attack by more than a handful of corps. Egypt could not attack without full mobilization - which might just be an invitation to Italy to try to expand the Libyan border to the East.
And wars are pretty expensive.
But thats barely enough to survive. 0.5 BP is not enought for even a decent torpedo boat force. And if all NPCs are so weak we will be able to practicly walk over them. If Firajistan has less than Egypt (say 2 BP, 20 million, $40) Ill be able to walk over it. It wont be able to afford any super cruisers or other annoying weapons. If New Zion cant build anything, Swampy wont have a need for Lake ships, or pre-emptive strikes. How are we going to have fun then? NPCs should at least be strong enough to annoy.
Firanjistan: you are welcome to try. There might be nations who won't like it. I can count at least two, nevermind a few who would help them just because NS attacked Firanj.
There are small NPCs, so what? If Swampy do not need lake ships, he won't build them. I will not litter the globe with $40-income nations just because you want them.
Historicly there where a lot of medium powers. The ABC ones all had dreadnoughts in their fleets. However here are rules are so strict that the only way they would get Dreadnoughts would be building them themselves. Littering the globe with $40 nations is not going to change the balance of power one bit but will make the world a more lively place. Look at the economic report. Only Iberia (8 BP, $94) and Japan (7 BP, $96) have less that 10 BP and $100. Giving NPCs 1-3 BPs, and $30-50, is not going to affect anyone, while making everything more interesting.