Norse ships needed :
D) A <10000 ton, best if <6000t class of 'Coast Defense ships'. Probably with 250/50 two-gun main guns. Draft needs to be 4-5m. Torpedo nets (1t/m length) if not a TDS. Range ~3000nm, so it can get across the Atlantic.
AA guns can be 75/50.
Torps 21".
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917
Displacement:
6,675 t light; 7,023 t standard; 7,384 t normal; 7,672 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(403.81 ft / 396.98 ft) x 78.74 ft x (13.78 / 14.22 ft)
(123.08 m / 121.00 m) x 24.00 m x (4.20 / 4.33 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 504.70lbs / 228.93kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,493 lbs / 1,131 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.98" / 152 mm 258.04 ft / 78.65 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.01" / 51 mm 258.04 ft / 78.65 m 12.99 ft / 3.96 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59.06 ft / 18.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.98" / 152 mm 2.99" / 76 mm 5.98" / 152 mm
2nd: 2.99" / 76 mm 2.99" / 76 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.01" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.01" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.98" / 152 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,052 shp / 13,467 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 649 tons
Complement:
397 - 517
Cost:
£1.020 million / $4.082 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 716 tons, 9.7 %
- Guns: 716 tons, 9.7 %
Armour: 2,232 tons, 30.2 %
- Belts: 749 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 249 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 367 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 817 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 662 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,669 tons, 36.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 709 tons, 9.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 397 tons, 5.4 %
- Hull below water: 80 tons (DC + Extra)
- Hull above water: 80 tons (CC + Extra)
- On freeboard deck: 80 tons (Torps etc)
- Above deck: 157 tons (LR Wireless, SR Wireless, Remote sensing, FC)
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,636 lbs / 7,546 Kg = 34.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.45
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.604
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.92 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.99 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.82 ft / 6.65 m, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Average freeboard: 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.3 %
Waterplane Area: 22,862 Square feet or 2,124 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Nice.
We'll see what else is offered, but this could replace the 1893 Freki class.
So I tried for a more compact version.
Not surprisingly, belt armor was what went.
The small machinery area allows a protective deck, behind the main belt, so ~145mm res.
which is put at 45mm, so proof against up to ~270mm splinters aka any cruiser.
No TDS, but liberally covered in armor. Very very tough for a cruiser.
That smaller machinery means a fair bit slower as well - 18 vs. 21.
The Finnish Vainamoinian was 93m and 3900t, so I'm quite a bit bigger than that.
I went with single 6" instead of the 120mm.
I did not bother with LR, as this should be working near Norse bases.
Range is just 3000nm, so it can make it's way across the Atlantic, but I would expect it would base hop.
Not as well rounded a vessel, but 2/3rds the cost.
Gullenbursti, Norse Coast Defense Ship laid down 1917
Displacement:
4,712 t light; 5,104 t standard; 5,320 t normal; 5,494 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(392.15 ft / 383.86 ft) x 51.18 ft x (14.76 / 15.17 ft)
(119.53 m / 117.00 m) x 15.60 m x (4.50 / 4.62 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 507.06lbs / 230.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 87.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,782 lbs / 1,262 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 191.93 ft / 58.50 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 191.90 ft / 58.49 m 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 191.93 ft / 58.50 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.51" / 140 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.76" / 70 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,671 shp / 5,723 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 390 tons
Complement:
310 - 404
Cost:
£0.896 million / $3.582 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 844 tons, 15.9 %
- Guns: 844 tons, 15.9 %
Armour: 1,610 tons, 30.3 %
- Belts: 647 tons, 12.2 %
- Armament: 276 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 656 tons, 12.3 %
- Conning Tower: 31 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 281 tons, 5.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,810 tons, 34.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 609 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 167 tons, 3.1 %
- Hull below water: 5 tons
- Hull void weights: 47 tons
- Hull above water: 5 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 85 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,741 lbs / 3,965 Kg = 18.3 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.63
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.642 / 0.645
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Average freeboard: 14.90 ft / 4.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.8 %
Waterplane Area: 14,940 Square feet or 1,388 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 520 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.82
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
25mm upper deck
50mm upper belt from 4.2 to 2.2m
Main belt from 2.2m to -1.3m
45mm Protective Deck crown at 1.7, lower edge at -0.8.
50t Reserve
85t FC
0t SR Radio
25t Searchlight tower
5t Climate control
5t Damage control
I like this kind of ship.
I think that 18kts is too slow for 1917.
Round number is better 4712t => 4800t ;)
--------------
After a look on Iberian speed PDN, BB, BC, AC, CL, 19.5kts-20kts-21kts is the usual (minimum) speed.
So, 18kts is really too short.
It's Norse, for the Fjords and rivers and coastlines.
Not really meant to work with his fleet. The existing Norse Coast Defense Ships have speeds from 8- 13knots.
Frenrir / Hati/Skoll were all built in 1893 and badly need replacement.
Vidopnir, the monitor, is 1899, and could just be refurbished, or replaced.
Coincidentally, 3 of Rocky's version buys slightly more than 4 of my compact version.
So depending on which is chosen, I can scrap the 4 old ships to help pay for 3/4 of the new.
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7088.msg90533.html#msg90533 (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7088.msg90533.html#msg90533)
A different take on my initial design, going all-forward so the ship can maximize firepower in narrow confines (where maneuvering may not be practical). This costs a bit in terms of protection and miscellaneous weight.
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917
Displacement:
6,675 t light; 7,023 t standard; 7,384 t normal; 7,672 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(403.81 ft / 396.98 ft) x 78.74 ft x (13.78 / 14.22 ft)
(123.08 m / 121.00 m) x 24.00 m x (4.20 / 4.33 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 504.70lbs / 228.93kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1917 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,493 lbs / 1,131 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 258.04 ft / 78.65 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 258.04 ft / 78.65 m 12.99 ft / 3.96 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59.06 ft / 18.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.98" / 152 mm 2.99" / 76 mm 5.98" / 152 mm
2nd: 2.01" / 51 mm 2.01" / 51 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.01" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.01" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.00" / 127 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,052 shp / 13,467 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 649 tons
Complement:
397 - 517
Cost:
£1.020 million / $4.082 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 716 tons, 9.7 %
- Guns: 716 tons, 9.7 %
Armour: 2,055 tons, 27.8 %
- Belts: 626 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 186 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 385 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 817 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 662 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,872 tons, 38.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 709 tons, 9.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 371 tons, 5.0 %
- Hull below water: 67 tons
- Hull above water: 67 tons
- On freeboard deck: 80 tons
- Above deck: 157 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,184 lbs / 7,341 Kg = 33.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.604
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.92 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.99 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.82 ft / 6.65 m, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
- Average freeboard: 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.3 %
Waterplane Area: 22,862 Square feet or 2,124 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 572 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.84
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
QuoteNot really meant to work with his fleet.
Being able to work with the Fleet can be helpful. => Support from a fleet of cruisers and destroyers to defend a port, a strait ...
QuoteThe existing Norse Coast Defense Ships have speeds from 8- 13knots.
Just because Norse makes slow ships doesn't mean the Iberians have to have them too.
You can also take Byzantium as a reference.
Byzantium built 4 Armored Gun Boats in 1897
AGB5850T-4x191+8x102-B100-21kts-4000nm.
These ships are still in service and in 1912 they were reclassified as Light Armored Cruiser. In 1920, they are Colonial Cruisers who can work with their counterparts.
Vainamoinen, Norse Coastal Defence Ship laid down 1918
Displacement:
3,723 t light; 4,009 t standard; 4,156 t normal; 4,274 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(310.00 ft / 310.00 ft) x 55.00 ft x (15.80 / 16.15 ft)
(94.49 m / 94.49 m) x 16.76 m x (4.82 / 4.92 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 504.32lbs / 228.75kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.46lbs / 51.92kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 74.9 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.59lbs / 6.16kg shells, 250 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,529 lbs / 1,147 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 100.00 ft / 30.48 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.00" / 127 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 5,565 shp / 4,152 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 265 tons
Complement:
258 - 336
Cost:
£0.829 million / $3.314 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 614 tons, 14.8 %
- Guns: 614 tons, 14.8 %
Armour: 1,109 tons, 26.7 %
- Belts: 497 tons, 12.0 %
- Armament: 179 tons, 4.3 %
- Armour Deck: 405 tons, 9.8 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 201 tons, 4.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,564 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 433 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 235 tons, 5.7 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 85 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,769 lbs / 2,617 Kg = 12.1 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.36
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.543
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.61 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.7 %
Waterplane Area: 11,788 Square feet or 1,095 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 562 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.40
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
60t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
100t - Torpedo Nets
50t - Electric Motors
Quote from: Jefgte on November 09, 2021, 10:04:23 AM
Just because Norse makes slow ships doesn't mean the Iberians have to have them too.
Um, Jefgte, it's a "Norse CDS design thread"
:)
I went with the sloooow option, but threw in electric drive for torpedo surviveability and maneuverability in confined spaces. I like it enough I might build some for the IJA.
CAG6000, Norse Colonial Armored Gunboat laid down 1917
Displacement:
6 000 t light; 6 374 t standard; 6 710 t normal; 6 978 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(406,82 ft / 406,82 ft) x 68,90 ft x (13,60 / 14,05 ft)
(124,00 m / 124,00 m) x 21,00 m x (4,15 / 4,28 m)
Armament:
6 - 9,84" / 250 mm 50,0 cal guns - 504,70lbs / 228,93kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,17lbs / 24,12kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
2 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 50,0 cal guns - 13,63lbs / 6,18kg shells, 180 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3 481 lbs / 1 579 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,92" / 125 mm 282,15 ft / 86,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1,50" / 38 mm 282,15 ft / 86,00 m 11,81 ft / 3,60 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 49,21 ft / 15,00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5,91" / 150 mm 2,76" / 70 mm 4,72" / 120 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4,72" / 120 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 16 480 shp / 12 294 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 604 tons
Complement:
369 - 481
Cost:
£1,147 million / $4,590 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 828 tons, 12,3 %
- Guns: 828 tons, 12,3 %
Armour: 1 816 tons, 27,1 %
- Belts: 597 tons, 8,9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 184 tons, 2,7 %
- Armament: 314 tons, 4,7 %
- Armour Deck: 676 tons, 10,1 %
- Conning Towers: 45 tons, 0,7 %
Machinery: 604 tons, 9,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 569 tons, 38,3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 710 tons, 10,6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 183 tons, 2,7 %
- Hull below water: 28 tons
- Hull above water: 28 tons
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 107 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10 783 lbs / 4 891 Kg = 22,6 x 9,8 " / 250 mm shells or 2,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,4 m
Roll period: 13,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,616 / 0,620
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 17,50 %, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m, 15,75 ft / 4,80 m
- Forward deck: 32,50 %, 15,75 ft / 4,80 m, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
- Aft deck: 32,50 %, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
- Quarter deck: 17,50 %, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
- Average freeboard: 13,74 ft / 4,19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,7 %
Waterplane Area: 20 808 Square feet or 1 933 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 559 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,41
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
82t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
28t for additionnal pumps
28t for additionnal ventilation
20t reserved
Interesting mix,
fun category :)
I went with a Sverige layout both times,
but Rocky's all forward is intriguing.
The length is somewhat fixed.
The draft should be <4.5m, so brought
that down a little.
Cut the freeboard down 0.7m.
Added some beam.
Got slower with mixed firing.
Interesting both Rocky and Jefgte make 21kts.
Got rid of the upper belt and upper deck.
The 65mm protective deck is behind the Armor belt,
which rises .5m above and below the deck edges.
Unlike the bigger designs, no TDS, no nifty electric drive like fox.
The sheer amount of beam and space mean it still can
take 2 torps and ...maybe..make it.
The curious thing is while at 4800t and no TDS it can 'take' 2.2 torps,
Gullenbursti II, Norse Coast Defense Ship laid down 1917
Displacement:
4,800 t light; 5,196 t standard; 5,512 t normal; 5,764 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(391.53 ft / 383.86 ft) x 59.06 ft x (13.94 / 14.47 ft)
(119.34 m / 117.00 m) x 18.00 m x (4.25 / 4.41 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 507.06lbs / 230.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 87.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,782 lbs / 1,262 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.51" / 140 mm 191.93 ft / 58.50 m 11.32 ft / 3.45 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 191.90 ft / 58.49 m 8.04 ft / 2.45 m
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.51" / 140 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 6,424 shp / 4,792 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 4,100nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 568 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
319 - 415
Cost:
£0.891 million / $3.563 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 844 tons, 15.3 %
- Guns: 844 tons, 15.3 %
Armour: 1,642 tons, 29.8 %
- Belts: 613 tons, 11.1 %
- Armament: 252 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 738 tons, 13.4 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 241 tons, 4.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,907 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 711 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 167 tons, 3.0 %
- Hull below water: 5 tons
- Hull void weights: 47 tons
- Hull above water: 5 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 85 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,839 lbs / 4,463 Kg = 20.6 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.610 / 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 12.66 ft / 3.86 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.7 %
Waterplane Area: 16,740 Square feet or 1,555 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 109 lbs/sq ft or 533 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The length is somewhat fixed.
The draft should be <4.5m, so brought
that down a little.
Cut the freeboard down 0.7m.
That gives
3.5m Weather Deck
1.55m Top Main belt
1.05m Maindeck
-1.4m lower edge protective deck
-1.95 Bottom Main belt
-3.5m Engineering.
-4.04m double bottom.
50t Reserve
85t FC
0t SR Radio
25t Searchlight tower
5t Climate control
5t Damage control
So this is the 2nd try at Gullenbursti
A larger vessel.
Brandenburg layout,
shallow draft and low freeboard.
Since MTBs and DDs can follow it into the shallows
a triple layer torpedo net, bulge and TDS are featured.
Tanngrisnir, Norse Coast Defense Ship laid down 1917
Displacement:
6,650 t light; 7,130 t standard; 7,451 t normal; 7,708 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(392.15 ft / 387.14 ft) x 59.06 ft (Bulges 68.90 ft) x (14.44 / 14.94 ft)
(119.53 m / 118.00 m) x 18.00 m (Bulges 21.00 m) x (4.40 / 4.55 m)
Armament:
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm 45.0 cal guns - 480.81lbs / 218.09kg shells, 165 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.20lbs / 1.45kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,370 lbs / 1,529 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.89" / 175 mm 251.64 ft / 76.70 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 135.47 ft / 41.29 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 1.18" / 30 mm 251.64 ft / 76.70 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 251.64 ft / 76.70 m 13.85 ft / 4.22 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 37.73 ft / 11.50 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.51" / 13 mm 251.64 ft / 76.70 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 6.89" / 175 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 6.89" / 175 mm, Aft 1.18" / 30 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 10,058 shp / 7,503 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 577 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
400 - 521
Cost:
£1.100 million / $4.399 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 944 tons, 12.7 %
- Guns: 944 tons, 12.7 %
Armour: 2,514 tons, 33.7 %
- Belts: 957 tons, 12.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 193 tons, 2.6 %
- Bulges: 38 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 544 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 716 tons, 9.6 %
- Conning Towers: 66 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 377 tons, 5.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,377 tons, 31.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 802 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 438 tons, 5.9 %
- Hull below water: 186 tons
- Bulge void weights: 66 tons
- Hull above water: 66 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 95 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,078 lbs / 6,386 Kg = 29.5 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.38
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.677 / 0.677
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.62 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 14.91 ft / 4.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.7 %
Waterplane Area: 17,955 Square feet or 1,668 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 564 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Length :
The KM Brandenburgs were 115.7m long
and fit 3 twin 280mm guns.
Norse docks are 120m so used that limit.
The 8 x 120 are fitted in 8 single mounts
Each shielded against <=155mm splinters.
24 68
A Q X
13 57
Armor :
The deck armor is proof against 350mm splinters.
Misc Wt :
65t - Reserve
95t - FC
0t - SR Radio
25t - Searchlight platform
65- Climate control
66- Damage control
120- Torpedo nets
I like this layout much better for a CDS for the Norse.
My primary issue with the Norse and CDS's is that while the individual Scandinavian states in this historical period loved the things, the Norse as a whole don't 'really' need them. DDs or maybe some small cruisers equipped heavily with 120mm guns would work well for fighting DDs and TBs in the Baltic, torpedoes give them a punch against capital units or heavy cruisers. The Norse have a battle fleet and the ability to build and maintain a battle fleet.
I'll work on a "Baltic" Battleship for the Norse instead. Something of a halfway house between Rocky's 'Monitors' which would honestly be one of the ship types they'd have to deal with, and a true Battleship. I just don't see them building much in the way of a 5-8,000t heavy cruiser with short range and guns that are oversize for fighting most extant cruisers but far too small to ever threaten a capital unit. Presuming that the Norse have twin mounts for capital-ship sized guns (IIRC 350mm and 400mm), it would make much more sense for them to do an AQY small Battleship as shallow drafted as possible and designed for the Baltic (modest speed, heavy TDS, highly maneuverable, moderate armor).
While I agree that some "pocket battleships" could be quite useful, I don't think these Norse CDS are for the Baltic per-say. I believe they are more for the North America theater including the St Lawrence seaway and possibly the Great Lakes. They could also be useful in the Irish Sea backing up torpedo boat squadrons.
QuoteWhile I agree that some "pocket battleships" could be quite useful, I don't think these Norse CDS are for the Baltic per-say. I believe they are more for the North America theater including the St Lawrence seaway and possibly the Great Lakes. They could also be useful in the Irish Sea backing up torpedo boat squadrons.
QuoteBeing able to work with the Fleet can be helpful. => Support from a fleet of cruisers and destroyers to defend a port, a strait ...
Tanngrisnir is similar to
CAG6000Same armament but 6650t-B175-18kts vs 6000t-B125-21kts
I could see then working in the great lakes, maybe the bays along the Erican coast. But in Europe....eh.
Purpose :
Basically, the Norse player felt like having a bunch of gunboats/monitors of various sizes. As long as they have some utility, aren't seriously flawed, and don't eat up a massive part of the budget,
I don't see the harm in continuing that for the successor player.
I actually have more heartburn about the huge expense Iberian made, making so many docks and slips 300m.
It is terribly nice to be able to make *tons* of ships, but that could have bought allot of IC or BP...and ships.
I'm sure Darman had some vision for them that I just miss.
I'd also like to point out the Norse do not have have territory in the Baltic. So a purely 'Baltic' battleship doesn't work.
The Norse have- to me, the least viable nation, picking up Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Karalia and a pocket of Russia. Its a very very cold nation with limited growing areas. Which apparently is far more prosperous than I think.
As for the utility :
The terrain of the Norse coast favors them, Scotland has a incised coastline, Ireland has hideyholes, and the Canadian littoral region and St. Lawrence seaway work that way to.
In an invasion of any of these places, these could be a problem.
Having a ship that can zip out and remove supply ships moving past.
You could escort your supply chain with big ships- tying them up, or you could escort the supply ships with cruisers...that can't kill these.
Given the draft of foreign battleships and armored cruisers anything big enough to kill them...can't catch them.
So the foe would either have to send in cruisers, or smaller craft. Which might not fare well against light coastal defenses or supporting vessels. After all the Norse have other gunboats.
Not impossible, but probably difficult.
Offensively, instead of tying battlewagons to beacheads as fire support, these can actually do the job.
All for a relatively low "cost".
The Norse did build a 160m dock at Chicago, so the Great Lakes are one additional location. In which case it would be dominant.
=> Norse Fleet need Light Cruiser too
After the Danae class:
1915 - 4800t - 6T1x155 - 4x47 - 30kts
The Geilo class:
1918 - 5800t - 3T2x155 - 8x100 - 30kts
T2x155 available in 1917
Norse Light Cruiser laid down 1918
Geilo-Gjovik-Gorgen-Gauske
Displacement:
5 800 t light; 6 035 t standard; 6 436 t normal; 6 756 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(491,03 ft / 488,85 ft) x 52,49 ft x (17,04 / 17,69 ft)
(149,66 m / 149,00 m) x 16,00 m x (5,20 / 5,39 m)
Armament:
6 - 6,10" / 155 mm 50,0 cal guns - 120,29lbs / 54,56kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 3,94" / 100 mm 50,0 cal guns - 32,30lbs / 14,65kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 500 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 993 lbs / 450 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,99" / 76 mm 367,45 ft / 112,00 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m
Ends: 2,01" / 51 mm 118,11 ft / 36,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 116 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2,99" / 76 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
3rd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1,18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4,02" / 102 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 55 000 shp / 41 030 Kw = 30,05 kts
Range 8 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 721 tons
Complement:
359 - 467
Cost:
£1,142 million / $4,569 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 237 tons, 3,7 %
- Guns: 237 tons, 3,7 %
Armour: 1 029 tons, 16,0 %
- Belts: 514 tons, 8,0 %
- Armament: 106 tons, 1,7 %
- Armour Deck: 370 tons, 5,7 %
- Conning Towers: 39 tons, 0,6 %
Machinery: 1 984 tons, 30,8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 284 tons, 35,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 636 tons, 9,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 266 tons, 4,1 %
- Hull above water: 116 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5 719 lbs / 2 594 Kg = 50,3 x 6,1 " / 155 mm shells or 1,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
Roll period: 15,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,515 / 0,521
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 17,50 %, 24,93 ft / 7,60 m, 22,31 ft / 6,80 m
- Forward deck: 32,00 %, 22,31 ft / 6,80 m, 21,13 ft / 6,44 m
- Aft deck: 33,00 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 17,50 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Average freeboard: 17,67 ft / 5,38 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159,6 %
Waterplane Area: 17 334 Square feet or 1 610 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 425 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,46
- Overall: 1,00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t for Long Range Marconi
24t for 1913 Fire Control
50t for climatisation
50t for additionnal pumps
50t Flag facilities
24t for 8TTx21"
17t reserve
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 10, 2021, 08:54:27 PM
Purpose :
Basically, the Norse player felt like having a bunch of gunboats/monitors of various sizes. As long as they have some utility, aren't seriously flawed, and don't eat up a massive part of the budget,
I don't see the harm in continuing that for the successor player.
I actually have more heartburn about the huge expense Iberian made, making so many docks and slips 300m.
It is terribly nice to be able to make *tons* of ships, but that could have bought allot of IC or BP...and ships.
I'm sure Darman had some vision for them that I just miss.
I'd also like to point out the Norse do not have have territory in the Baltic. So a purely 'Baltic' battleship doesn't work.
The Norse have- to me, the least viable nation, picking up Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Karalia and a pocket of Russia. Its a very very cold nation with limited growing areas. Which apparently is far more prosperous than I think.
As for the utility :
The terrain of the Norse coast favors them, Scotland has a incised coastline, Ireland has hideyholes, and the Canadian littoral region and St. Lawrence seaway work that way to.
In an invasion of any of these places, these could be a problem.
Having a ship that can zip out and remove supply ships moving past.
You could escort your supply chain with big ships- tying them up, or you could escort the supply ships with cruisers...that can't kill these.
Given the draft of foreign battleships and armored cruisers anything big enough to kill them...can't catch them.
So the foe would either have to send in cruisers, or smaller craft. Which might not fare well against light coastal defenses or supporting vessels. After all the Norse have other gunboats.
Not impossible, but probably difficult.
Offensively, instead of tying battlewagons to beacheads as fire support, these can actually do the job.
All for a relatively low "cost".
The Norse did build a 160m dock at Chicago, so the Great Lakes are one additional location. In which case it would be dominant.
Having reviewed what guns the Norse have, I'm still not sold on the 250s. I'll design one for the selection process with the 305mm twin turret however, since those exist. I think that's a better balance, and something with the punch to take on cruisers well outside their effective range while having something that could hurt Battlecruisers that get too ambitious.
I went with the 305mm turrets for my CDS contestant. Mostly because this gun is going to comfortably outgun any cruisers current or future. It's technically got a bit of range over my 280mm light battlecruisers. Armor is sufficient to defeat most of what a cruiser could throw, and might ding some shells from capital ships in the right circumstances. While it is a tad heavier than the 250mm variants, I think that for something like the North American station, this guarantees that any attempt to take on the Norse in those bays and coastal regions is going to require a capital ship, because even a pair of cruisers can't be guaranteed to kill her.
Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919
Displacement:
11,807 t light; 12,510 t standard; 13,212 t normal; 13,774 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 524.93 ft) x 98.43 ft x (16.27 / 16.82 ft)
(160.00 m / 160.00 m) x 30.00 m x (4.96 / 5.13 m)
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,991 lbs / 2,717 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.76" / 70 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.57" / 40 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 13.55 ft / 4.13 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.09" / 180 mm
2nd: 2.76" / 70 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 19,123 shp / 14,266 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,265 tons
Complement:
616 - 801
Cost:
£2.265 million / $9.061 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,294 tons, 9.8 %
- Guns: 1,294 tons, 9.8 %
Armour: 4,202 tons, 31.8 %
- Belts: 1,653 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 233 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 744 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,401 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Towers: 171 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 679 tons, 5.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,440 tons, 41.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,406 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 192 tons, 1.5 %
- Hull above water: 70 tons
- On freeboard deck: 12 tons
- Above deck: 110 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,188 lbs / 14,600 Kg = 37.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
Metacentric height 10.0 ft / 3.0 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.555
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.8 %
Waterplane Area: 36,058 Square feet or 3,350 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 702 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
130t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern
Interesting option; I think you need to tweak the main battery layout though.
Interesting.
Really big, over the 'best' range.
Draft exceeds max at deep draft.
Trimming range to 5000 and 10knots and slimming the BC
might bring the draft up.
I like the 180mm/7" belt and upper belt.
It has potential against an Ludznik class, though that has more guns and more armor.
Rocky is correct that there are only 5 gun mounts for the 6 guns.
I find it curious that many have chosen the 20-21knot range,
The vessels really can't escape anything at that speed,
at 21 they can at least bolster the battleline, but they aren't suitable for it.
It's a matter of value placed on an asset.
Yeah I'll tweak it. It was a 15 minute design. The 21kt was for the purpose of letting it operate in conjunction with their standard class bbs if found in the same area, I reduced to 20 to save weight.
Ok, so 3 variations on this theme. The first, she's 2000t over the top, but for the purposes of being a flagship for the NA station, she can do that role. She can also take on any armored cruiser or heavy cruiser, and give even 5 guys Pre-Dread or early BB a solid fight. Rather than torpedo nets she has a modern and deep TDS that allows for 6 torpedo impacts with a good chance of limping home.
Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919
Displacement:
12,097 t light; 12,802 t standard; 13,309 t normal; 13,714 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 524.93 ft) x 98.43 ft x (15.03 / 15.40 ft)
(160.00 m / 160.00 m) x 30.00 m x (4.58 / 4.69 m)
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck forward
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,991 lbs / 2,717 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.76" / 70 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.57" / 40 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 13.55 ft / 4.13 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.09" / 180 mm
2nd: 2.76" / 70 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 23,911 shp / 17,838 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 912 tons
Complement:
619 - 805
Cost:
£2.339 million / $9.357 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,294 tons, 9.7 %
- Guns: 1,294 tons, 9.7 %
Armour: 4,223 tons, 31.7 %
- Belts: 1,661 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 233 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 690 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,467 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Towers: 171 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 849 tons, 6.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,539 tons, 41.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,212 tons, 9.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 192 tons, 1.4 %
- Hull above water: 70 tons
- On freeboard deck: 12 tons
- Above deck: 110 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,147 lbs / 14,128 Kg = 36.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.54
Metacentric height 10.1 ft / 3.1 m
Roll period: 13.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.603
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.1 %
Waterplane Area: 37,788 Square feet or 3,511 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 690 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
130t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern
A slower variation. She's no longer able to operate 'in conjunction with' the battle line if the need arises. But she's a bit cheaper, a bit shallower, and a bit narrower.
Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919
Displacement:
11,460 t light; 12,151 t standard; 12,641 t normal; 13,032 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 524.93 ft) x 95.14 ft x (14.76 / 20.20 ft)
(160.00 m / 160.00 m) x 29.00 m x (4.50 / 6.16 m)
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck forward
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,991 lbs / 2,717 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.76" / 70 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.57" / 40 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 13.55 ft / 4.13 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.09" / 180 mm
2nd: 2.76" / 70 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 13,044 shp / 9,731 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 881 tons
Complement:
595 - 774
Cost:
£2.173 million / $8.691 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,294 tons, 10.2 %
- Guns: 1,294 tons, 10.2 %
Armour: 4,159 tons, 32.9 %
- Belts: 1,651 tons, 13.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 233 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 690 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,418 tons, 11.2 %
- Conning Towers: 166 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 463 tons, 3.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,352 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,181 tons, 9.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 192 tons, 1.5 %
- Hull above water: 70 tons
- On freeboard deck: 12 tons
- Above deck: 110 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,207 lbs / 15,063 Kg = 38.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.48
Metacentric height 9.1 ft / 2.8 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.452
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.1 %
Waterplane Area: 36,529 Square feet or 3,394 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 687 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
130t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern
And finally the smallest design. While not preferred, as this design sacrifices the useful 6 gun broadside of the others, it does edge under the 10,000t limit while still having the throw weight of 12in guns. It should be noted that while the heavier designs are over the 10,000t limit, their having 12in guns gives them superior armor penetration to anything that's not a capital unit or near-capital unit. The 6 x 12in guns also gives them the throw weight of a cruiser with over 10 x 250mm guns.
Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919
Displacement:
9,542 t light; 10,075 t standard; 10,514 t normal; 10,865 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(475.72 ft / 475.72 ft) x 95.14 ft x (13.55 / 13.92 ft)
(145.00 m / 145.00 m) x 29.00 m x (4.13 / 4.24 m)
Armament:
4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,245 lbs / 1,925 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.76" / 70 mm 295.28 ft / 90.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.57" / 40 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 13.55 ft / 4.13 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.09" / 180 mm
2nd: 2.76" / 70 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 12,110 shp / 9,034 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 790 tons
Complement:
518 - 674
Cost:
£1.661 million / $6.642 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 913 tons, 8.7 %
- Guns: 913 tons, 8.7 %
Armour: 3,637 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 1,537 tons, 14.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 207 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 461 tons, 4.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,285 tons, 12.2 %
- Conning Towers: 147 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 430 tons, 4.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,398 tons, 41.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 972 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 164 tons, 1.6 %
- Hull above water: 52 tons
- On freeboard deck: 12 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,236 lbs / 14,168 Kg = 36.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.61
Metacentric height 10.3 ft / 3.1 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.604
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.70 ft / 4.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.4 %
Waterplane Area: 33,104 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 633 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
102t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern
Ok, I have not posted a POLL before, but apparently there's only 5 options.
..which is a problem when their are 8 qualifiers.
Anyhow, as this is the first time I've tried this I will do it first in this thread.
So, anyone who wants, please vote.
A) Not for one of your own ships
B) Which competing design best meets the Norse need?
Player -Ship – Light Tons – Main Guns, Main Belt, Armor Deck, Max spd.
1. Rocky - EnterShip Name – 6675t, 4x250mm, 152MB, 51mmm AD, 21kts
2. Rocky - "All Forward" – 6675t, 4x250mm, 125MB, 51mmm AD, 21kts
3. Fox - Vainamoinian 3723t, 4x 250mm, 127MB, 64AD, 17kts E
4. Kaiser – GB II 'All Forward' – 4800t, 4x 250mm, 140MB + 65 Protective, 17knts
4. Kaiser - Tanngrisnir – 6650t – 6x 250mm, 175MB, 60 AD, 18kts
5. Jefgte – CAG6000, 6000t, 6x 250mm, 125MB, 50AD, 21kts
6. Tac – Drakar I – 12097t, 6x305mm, 180MB + 65 Protective, 21knts
7.
8. Tac – Drakar Noir – 9542t – 4x 305mm, 180MB + 65 Protective, 18kts
Designs within Parameters
Ultimately, the Norse are looking to spend up to 30,000 tons for 4-6 coast defense ships.
That tonnage could be slightly exceeded, but they would prefer to underrun,
as these are taking the role of ~4000t ships. There could be a Hi/Lo mix.
Expected to operate solo, or in squadrons with gunboats, hiding in shallows.
Maximum Draft was 5m, to enable use of desired areas.
The shallow draft also limits the expected foes.
All designs had torpedo defenses and QF guns for light craft defense.
250mm designs preferred, that did not exclude 305mm, so the Drakars are included.
As for the utility of the 250 vs. 305,
that is an interesting conversation.
I think the performance of historic 10"/40s compared to a generation later 12/45 & 12/50 is misleading.
The Navalism 10/45 and 10/50 are fairly decent weapons, which fire faster. Which should make spotting easier.
The more likely opfor is either escorts the vessel cwants to engage, or enemy cruisers/destroyers/mtbs with drafts <5m, which they are likely both able to penetrate armor at all combat ranges.
As for capital units, If a 4000t Norse ship can serve as 'Fleet in being' and tie up 1 or more enemy capital units as escorts, that is a 'win'.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 14, 2021, 06:25:52 PM
3. Fox - Vainamoinian 3723t, 4x 250mm, 127MB, 64AD, 17kts E
This was a tough choice for me.
Especially as I could not choose my ships !!
I almost chose Jefgte's CAG6000 - as a nice compact vessel, affordable in numbers, with a good broadside.
Either one hiding up a river, inlet or Fjord could be a planning problem for an opposing commander,
or they could be easily tasked in a gunfire support role with the monitors, freeing up more valuable capital ship.
Think I'm going to nod at Tac's Drakar II, despite it being outside the desired size range. It's decent economy, will certainly require a capital ship to overcome, and still has a shallow (if not 5m) draft for inshore work.
Um,
I meant to exclude that one due to the draft.
Terribly sorry, but could you rechoose while I edit the list ?
Drakar #1, then. Same rationale, better draft.
4. Kaiser
Same as Kaiser I can't vote for myself. I really believe that the 6 gun ships are adding utility for not much more weight. 6 guns allows for half Salvo spotting work, if barely. And between 6 guns and his belt, the only thing that edged it over Jef, I think number 4 could take on a 5 guys pre dreadnought, or a current armored cruiser of the "frigate" type as they're known in the RAN. Possibly even give the new heavy cruisers being laid down or planned a fight they'd remember.
I have to go with the one that is closest in spirit to mine (so cheapest), so Kaiser's 4800t design, is it all forward? SS3 looks like none are superfiring.
Coastal Defense Ship
Able to help MTBs & TBs vs enemy cruiser (coastal raider). 21kts is the minimum tactical speed required for this job. Correct armament & protection.
I choose
1. Rocky - Enter Ship Name – 6675t, 4x250mm, 152MB, 51mmm AD, 21kts
;)
Nice. Five votes for five different candidates.
We just need snip to make it six votes for six candidates and we're set.
2 votes for the smallest ships, 2 votes for medium size ships, one vote for the biggest one in the bunch. We can't even agree on what they should look like.
Quote from: Desertfox on November 15, 2021, 11:57:45 AM
2 votes for the smallest ships, 2 votes for medium size ships, one vote for the biggest one in the bunch. We can't even agree on what they should look like.
Good thing we're not actually trying to play one nation together.
Almost a case of asking snip to choose one of the 5. And just tie break. If he can't, the two true closest are Kirk and Jef for design philosophy I think, just a matter of belt thickness.
BTW
I will be returning to these design threads shortly.
Thanksgiving turned into a rush...and now it's mid December.
What happened ?
Yeah, the voting thing failed.
I see a basic problem that when I set the design parameters,
I rather expected people to stay in them. Or at least vote that way.
Replacing Fjord-hiding 4000 ton ships that do 13 knots and are meant to fight cruisers and lighter with 12000 ton ships that have speed and armament to keep up with the battleline
on the ocean... just didn't occur to me as an option.
So I wasn't ready for it.
I will chat with Snip (since posted), but I have a feeling he will say something about my creating the mess.. and I will have to choose something.
I will then start working on the others and getting those worked down to 'candidates'.
I do have the Norse and Iberians worked out, I have placeholders for the actual ships they are building.
You know... You could try rank voting...
Quote from: Desertfox on December 15, 2021, 11:26:55 PM
You know... You could try rank voting...
That is a good suggestion, it may be the best way forward.
I do need to think about the larger vessels inclusion/exclusion through.
Any future RFPs will be better about limits.