Just a concept so far, a dedicated MTB destroyer, basically a mini-version of the Izokaze class destroyers, with dedicated short-range shallow-running torpedoes for use against small fast ships.
Improved Kamikaze, Japan Torpedo Boat laid down 1915
Displacement:
350 t light; 368 t standard; 399 t normal; 424 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(252.47 ft / 250.00 ft) x 21.00 ft x (7.00 / 7.27 ft)
(76.95 m / 76.20 m) x 6.40 m x (2.13 / 2.22 m)
Armament:
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
1 raised mount
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 50.0 cal guns - 4.23lbs / 1.92kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 105 lbs / 48 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,283 shp / 7,671 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 1,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 56 tons
Complement:
44 - 58
Cost:
£0.067 million / $0.268 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 20 tons, 5.1 %
- Guns: 20 tons, 5.1 %
Machinery: 200 tons, 50.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 114 tons, 28.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 49 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 3.8 %
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
96 lbs / 44 Kg = 7.1 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.389
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 32.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 23.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.24 ft / 2.82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.3 %
Waterplane Area: 3,189 Square feet or 296 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 98 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
10t for 4x14" Torpedo Tubes
5t for 1908 FC
And a minimalistic version of the same.
Improved Kamikaze, Japan MTB Killer laid down 1914
Displacement:
192 t light; 205 t standard; 221 t normal; 235 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(202.12 ft / 200.00 ft) x 17.00 ft x (6.00 / 6.23 ft)
(61.60 m / 60.96 m) x 5.18 m x (1.83 / 1.90 m)
Armament:
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 48 lbs / 22 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,930 shp / 4,423 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 30 tons
Complement:
28 - 37
Cost:
£0.032 million / $0.130 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 10 tons, 4.7 %
- Guns: 10 tons, 4.7 %
Machinery: 115 tons, 51.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 66 tons, 29.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 29 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1 tons, 0.5 %
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57 lbs / 26 Kg = 14.3 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.95
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.388
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 74
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.80 ft / 2.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.8 %
Waterplane Area: 2,065 Square feet or 192 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 46 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 17 lbs/sq ft or 83 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.92
- Overall: 0.57
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
1t for 1908 FC
I feel like the larger one could use a bit more range if it's to screen larger ships.
Either could make a useful coastal defence/harbour defence unit, though.
QuoteImproved Kamikaze, Japan MTB Killer laid down 1914
Interesting concept
;)
Granted, it only works because of the extreme L:B ratio and block co-efficient.
It did start out as an experiment into how much you can stuff into 300t. These are designed to actively seek out and hunt MTBs, I have a 200t gunboat design that is more suitable for escort duty.
Even more minimalistic. I really like this one.
Improved Kamikaze, Japan MTB Killer laid down 1915
Displacement:
101 t light; 107 t standard; 118 t normal; 127 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(171.76 ft / 170.00 ft) x 14.20 ft x (4.50 / 4.71 ft)
(52.35 m / 51.82 m) x 4.33 m x (1.37 / 1.44 m)
Armament:
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 240 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 24 lbs / 11 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,631 shp / 1,963 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 20 tons
Complement:
17 - 23
Cost:
£0.019 million / $0.076 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 3.7 %
- Guns: 4 tons, 3.7 %
Machinery: 58 tons, 49.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 34 tons, 29.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 17 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 3.4 %
- On freeboard deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32 lbs / 15 Kg = 8.0 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.390
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.97 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Average freeboard: 6.32 ft / 1.93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.5 %
Waterplane Area: 1,466 Square feet or 136 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 55 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 13 lbs/sq ft or 62 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
1t for 1908 FC
3t for spare (2x14" TT?)
That 100t design is not legal as it only has 49.6% Machinery at normal displacement instead of the 50% required by our rules for construction of ships to the Destroyer standard.
Ok, so you get 29kts actual maximum, though you're going to lose a lot of speed as the weather/sea state picks up.
I just think that you're not getting enough out of this 100t design to make it superior to an MTB-A at 40 tons. 2 of those revolving 50mm guns versus a pair of MTBs at 80% of the cost with 2 50mm guns.....meh. Also, only 2 x 14in TT, or conversely a couple of depth charges in the future, means that your MTB killer is that and just that, it's really not a particular threat to cruisers or battleships, and only the oldest DDs can't casually slap your ship into flotsam at ranges you can't respond from.
The machinery % thing is annoying, I can't figure out what makes that particular thing tick. Turns out dumping 2 tons of misc weight fixes that issue.
Speed will be lost in bad weather, but MTBs will lose even more speed in those conditions or wont even be out and about. The Gatlings have proven to be much superior to the single 50mm cannons, and this ship will be a much better gun platform than the MTBs, and better able to survive any hits. It is very specialized but also very cheap and designed for use in littoral waters, where destroyers might not be able to follow.
Overall, I cant say I'm a fan of the concept. I think you loose a lot of opportunity cost by pushing so small and specialized when a bigger multirole ship can likely do the job close to the same and have other possible uses.
Bigger multirole ship will be a lot more expensive. I can build ten of these for one 1,000t destroyer. Based on the 2nd Battle of Jeju, my Gatlings can land 3 hits for every 1 of the enemy's 50mm, which based on the MTBs only being able to take a couple of 50mm hits, means you need five 40t MTBs to take one of these down. So for the cost of an armored cruiser, I can have 100 of these turning MTBs into Swiss cheese, not a bad cost to keep your big ships from getting torpedoed.
Since it appears to be MTB-carrier season, might as well join the action and posted an idea I've been thinking about.
A whaling factory ship, slightly modified... Designed to carry its own 20t whaling boats, which just happen to be the same size as 20t MTBs and capable of processing up to five 100t blue whales at once, or an equivalent amount of MTBs or submarines... Its got a harpoon location forward which just happens to fit a 5" gun, and a reinforced hull.
Nisshin Maru, Japan Whaling Factory Ship laid down 1915
Displacement:
5,151 t light; 5,275 t standard; 5,770 t normal; 6,166 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(400.00 ft / 400.00 ft) x 54.00 ft x (17.00 / 17.92 ft)
(121.92 m / 121.92 m) x 16.46 m x (5.18 / 5.46 m)
Armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1915 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 111 lbs / 51 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: Unarmoured
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.50" / 13 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 40.00 ft / 12.19 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 6,241 shp / 4,656 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 891 tons
Complement:
330 - 430
Cost:
£0.319 million / $1.275 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 17 tons, 0.3 %
- Guns: 17 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 86 tons, 1.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 74 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 236 tons, 4.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,521 tons, 26.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 620 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,290 tons, 57.0 %
- Hull below water: 1,360 tons
- Hull above water: 1,000 tons
- On freeboard deck: 800 tons
- Above deck: 130 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,698 lbs / 5,306 Kg = 187.2 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.96
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.558
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.16 ft / 4.62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.5 %
Waterplane Area: 15,074 Square feet or 1,400 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 148 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 331 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
130t - LR Wireless, Flag accommodations, Experimental Radar
400t - Accommodations for 10 x 20t MTBs
400t - Accommodations for boat crews
1000t - Ramp and accommodations for 5 x 100t Submarines or 10 x 40t MTBs
1300t - Out-of-port resupply
60t - Electric Drive
Follow on to the Mayas, basically adds a fifth turret and some changes to the secondaries. Amagi style layout.
(https://www.navypedia.org/uploads/images/ships/japan/jap_bb66.gif)
Atago class, Japan Battlecruiser laid down 1915
Displacement:
17,958 t light; 19,153 t standard; 20,958 t normal; 22,402 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(644.76 ft / 640.00 ft) x 79.00 ft x (27.90 / 29.37 ft)
(196.52 m / 195.07 m) x 24.08 m x (8.50 / 8.95 m)
Armament:
10 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1915 Model
5 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1915 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,897 lbs / 4,489 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 68,062 shp / 50,774 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 7,900nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,249 tons
Complement:
870 - 1,132
Cost:
£2.740 million / $10.959 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,803 tons, 8.6 %
- Guns: 1,803 tons, 8.6 %
Armour: 5,443 tons, 26.0 %
- Belts: 2,305 tons, 11.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 391 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 1,716 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 884 tons, 4.2 %
- Conning Tower: 147 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,578 tons, 12.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,883 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,000 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1.2 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 180 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,398 lbs / 11,974 Kg = 30.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 35.00 %, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.98 ft / 6.39 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,312 Square feet or 3,188 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs/sq ft or 800 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
180t for 1908 FC
30t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
40t for Enhanced Damage Control
How many are planned?
27knts might be a little on the slow side for 1915, how much larger does she need to get for 28-30 knts?
Two, Atago and Chokai. They are slowish, but speed is expensive, and I'm mainly concerned with China. Right now I need numbers and I need them fast, so they have to be cheap.
Follow on to the Kawachis, same (Tosa style) layout but now with 14" guns. Two planned Fuso and Yamashiro.
(https://www.navypedia.org/uploads/images/ships/japan/jap_bb65.gif)
Fuso class, Japan Battleship laid down 1915
Displacement:
22,999 t light; 24,735 t standard; 26,621 t normal; 28,131 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(624.41 ft / 620.00 ft) x 92.00 ft x (29.70 / 31.03 ft)
(190.32 m / 188.98 m) x 28.04 m x (9.05 / 9.46 m)
Armament:
10 - 14.00" / 356 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,383.70lbs / 627.63kg shells, 142 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1915 Model
5 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1915 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15,146 lbs / 6,870 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 70.00 ft / 21.34 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 52,014 shp / 38,802 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,396 tons
Complement:
1,041 - 1,354
Cost:
£3.540 million / $14.161 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,577 tons, 9.7 %
- Guns: 2,577 tons, 9.7 %
Armour: 7,917 tons, 29.7 %
- Belts: 2,905 tons, 10.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 355 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 2,783 tons, 10.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,644 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,970 tons, 7.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,974 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,622 tons, 13.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 560 tons, 2.1 %
- Hull below water: 200 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 260 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,626 lbs / 16,160 Kg = 26.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 25.00 ft / 7.62 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.72 ft / 6.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.4 %
Waterplane Area: 39,808 Square feet or 3,698 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 943 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.58
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
260t for 1908 FC
10t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
200t for Enhanced Damage Control
Updated Furutaka class, more armor, correct armament layout, more range, and a heavy torpedo broadside.
Two planned, Furutaka and Kako
Furutaka class, Japan Light Cruiser laid down 1915
Displacement:
3,400 t light; 3,531 t standard; 4,131 t normal; 4,611 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(453.53 ft / 450.00 ft) x 45.00 ft x (17.00 / 18.33 ft)
(138.23 m / 137.16 m) x 13.72 m x (5.18 / 5.59 m)
Armament:
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.92lbs / 49.41kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 702 lbs / 318 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 40,577 shp / 30,270 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,079 tons
Complement:
256 - 334
Cost:
£0.580 million / $2.319 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 182 tons, 4.4 %
- Guns: 182 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 223 tons, 5.4 %
- Armament: 61 tons, 1.5 %
- Armour Deck: 162 tons, 3.9 %
Machinery: 1,537 tons, 37.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,373 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 731 tons, 17.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 85 tons, 2.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 40 tons
- Above deck: 45 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,379 lbs / 1,079 Kg = 22.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.435
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 34.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Aft deck: 21.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.82 ft / 4.52 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 134.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.5 %
Waterplane Area: 12,625 Square feet or 1,173 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 341 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
20t - 1908 Fire Control
25t - Long-range wireless
40t - 12 x 21" Torpedo Tubes
Quote from: Desertfox on September 18, 2020, 05:04:22 PM
Updated Furutaka class, more armor, correct armament layout, more range, and a heavy torpedo broadside.
My headcanon now says there are Furutaka-class cruisers with the wrong armament, infuriating senior Japanese personnel every time they're reminded of them.
My original SS3 version (1913) of them had no superfiring guns, but there was no money for them then so they got delayed a couple years.
Colonial flagship. Enough guns to deal with angry locals/pirates, space for up to 4 MTBs for patrol duty and/or landing boats for transportation, space for marines/hospital/passengers/guests, and enough supplies to support itself and 3,000 tons of shipping anywhere in the world.
Seta Maru, Japan Colonial Station Ship laid down 1915
Displacement:
1,997 t light; 2,068 t standard; 2,777 t normal; 3,345 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (15.00 / 17.39 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 12.19 m x (4.57 / 5.30 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 174 lbs / 79 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,250 shp / 3,170 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 7,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,277 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
190 - 248
Cost:
£0.159 million / $0.635 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 42 tons, 1.5 %
- Guns: 42 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 10 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.2 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 175 tons, 6.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 676 tons, 24.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 780 tons, 28.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,095 tons, 39.4 %
- Hull below water: 500 tons
- Hull above water: 300 tons
- On freeboard deck: 240 tons
- Above deck: 55 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,193 lbs / 2,356 Kg = 83.1 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.69
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.561
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.48 ft / 3.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 83.2 %
Waterplane Area: 8,297 Square feet or 771 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 174 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 55 lbs/sq ft or 267 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
55t - Long-range Wireless/Experimental Radar/FC
160t - 4 x 20 ton Landing Boats/Type B MTBs
80t - Observation Balloon/Minesweeping Gear
300t - Accommodations/Field Hospital/150 Marines
500t - Out-of-Port Resupply
Quote from: Desertfox on October 15, 2020, 05:51:24 PM
Colonial flagship. Enough guns to deal with angry locals/pirates, space for up to 4 MTBs for patrol duty and/or landing boats for transportation, space for marines/hospital/passengers/guests, and enough supplies to support itself and 3,000 tons of shipping anywhere in the world.
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 42 tons, 1.5 %
- Guns: 42 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 10 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.2 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0.2 %
55t - Long-range Wireless/Experimental Radar/FC
160t - 4 x 20 ton Landing Boats/Type B MTBs
80t - Observation Balloon/Minesweeping Gear
300t - Accommodations/Field Hospital/150 Marines
500t - Out-of-Port Resupply
Just to be Crystal Clear, the MTBs count against the 2% limit. They are a weapon. Therefore this is not an aux.
There's a lot going on in there. Maybe too much.
Wait what? Even if you pay for them separately? So the second it hoists up an MTB instead of a landing boat the price goes up 300%?
I would agree with Rocky that this ship is probly much to crowded for its intended role.
I'm kind of sympathetic to the idea that it isn't a warship. It's a collier/transport with davits and a balloon rig. Take it into combat and it's going to burn.
But I'd want to see more freeboard for something with that much passenger accommodation and more deck space for four MTBs and a balloon, and I think the "Accommodation/Field Hospital" tonnage needs to be specifically allocated.
Quick and dirty drawing compared to other Japanese auxiliaries. It is basically an improved Jingei II, with extra boat accommodations, the MTB Bs are to scale (15m). The British stuffed observation balloons on small destroyers, so the balloon shouldn't be a problem.
Quote from: Desertfox on October 15, 2020, 07:50:37 PM
Wait what? Even if you pay for them separately? So the second it hoists up an MTB instead of a landing boat the price goes up 300%?
An MTB is weapon delivery system, so it counts as a form of armament. Just as a torpedo plane would.
One test is if the extra weight puts it over the 2% cap.
Another is if it makes a cheap warship.
If all you want to do is haul them from point A to point B, call them cargo. But you don't need a ship designed for that.
That's opening a whole new can of worms. I have a whole bunch of auxiliaries that can carry 20t MTBs without any modification whatsoever, do I know have to pay extra simply because I got the 1908 destroyer tech? If we are going that route, then these would be considered warships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy-lift_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy-lift_ship)
If you list the tonnage as cargo, and not at MTBs you can shuttle them around, but will not be allowed to offload them and use them in a combat situation.
If you list as you did, the ship can sidle up offshore, unload them and use them in a combat situation. You're paying 2x their weight to allow that usage.
That's the difference.
If you want to field a larger ship with similar non-warship parameters, which has a couple MTBs that can be launched...but the entire arrangement is <2%, those vessels will likely be ok.
But that 2% is a hard limit, and it doesn't matter if "real world" you can bolt on an extra 3" gun, you can't here.
As for the can of worms, it's keeping the lid on.
You do not have to build Aux ships in the first place. You are completely free to build the ship as a warship.
If you choose to build Aux ships, it is not an automatic category, Aux is not intended for producing ships that help you in combat and there the % restriction and the mod call which have to be passed.
Whats the definition of a "combat situation"? Note how my auxiliaries are designed to carry 20 ton landing boats, which is also what an MTB B weighs. This isn't supposed to be a combat ship, its not supposed to show up off an enemy port and dump MTBs, its supposed to show up at a colonial location and be an "instant base". The plan being to carry a couple MTBs and a couple landing ships, the MTBs being used as patrol boats for the location.
I also had to pay 2x for my MTB and sub transport ship. As i understood it, the 2x applies even for transportation purposes.
Listing them as Misc Wt and paying 2x tonnage so they are on deck means they can be launched from the ship in a combat condition.
At that point, I consider them a torpedo delivery system just like a torpedo carrying seaplane.
At that point they become armament and are subject to the 2% rule.
If you want to list 80t - Cargo - MTB storage - you're fine.
But you won't be able to lower them into the water and send them off to attack without stopping at one of your own provinces first.
So if the ship launches landing craft filled with troops on an amphib assault -> auxiliary, but if the ship launches the same landing craft now with torpedoes -> warship...?
What about my current auxiliaries that can now carry MTBs without any modification at all?
Under the rules as written, ships launching landing craft would technically be covered under deployment points and are therefor unrequired to be simmed. Whether adding this capability to a simmed ship alters how it is accounted for is up to Kirk.
Quote from: Desertfox on October 16, 2020, 01:47:08 PM
So if the ship launches landing craft filled with troops on an amphib assault -> auxiliary, but if the ship launches the same landing craft now with torpedoes -> warship...?
What about my current auxiliaries that can now carry MTBs without any modification at all?
You keep focusing on 'warship'
I keep pointing to the 2% rule.
You have to satisfy both.
The proposed vessel does not do so.
Landing craft are fluff, and close to irrelevant. Which I've said before. They have virtually no naval combat ability beyond possibly an MG or ramming. They are not armament.
If your current auxiliaries load MTBs they will presumably be in violation of the 2% rule. So they should stick to the landing craft.
So if I where to load them up with MTBs at Point A and then drop them off at Point B, that would be ok, provided Point B is a location I control, and not say a location of an enemy harbor where they could stage a combat strike? I can live with that, that was the intent of this ship in the first place.
Quote from: Desertfox on October 18, 2020, 01:09:58 AM
So if I where to load them up with MTBs at Point A and then drop them off at Point B, that would be ok, provided Point B is a location I control, and not say a location of an enemy harbor where they could stage a combat strike? I can live with that, that was the intent of this ship in the first place.
If they are listed as cargo, even deck cargo...which is cheaper tonnage wise.
The current way they are specified is what is making me term them armament, as it provides for their use.
Kinda the difference between shipping a 5" M&H as cargo, and bolting on the deck.
I will reiterate, you can simply assume your nation has cargo vessels with sufficient hold size to transport them. You do not need to specify a vessel for that.
Updated the Surabaya design, only one planned now, primarily to provide fire support in colonial situations.
Surabaya, Japan Colonial Gunboat laid down 1915
Displacement:
2,100 t light; 2,278 t standard; 2,442 t normal; 2,573 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (11.40 / 11.86 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 14.94 m x (3.47 / 3.62 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1915 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,585 lbs / 719 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 0.50" / 13 mm 100.00 ft / 30.48 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,607 shp / 5,675 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 294 tons
Complement:
173 - 225
Cost:
£0.345 million / $1.381 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 327 tons, 13.4 %
- Guns: 327 tons, 13.4 %
Armour: 414 tons, 16.9 %
- Belts: 192 tons, 7.9 %
- Armament: 98 tons, 4.0 %
- Armour Deck: 108 tons, 4.4 %
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 288 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 992 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 341 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 3.3 %
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 60 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,311 lbs / 1,502 Kg = 12.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.510 / 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 45.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 10.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.90 ft / 3.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.8 %
Waterplane Area: 9,884 Square feet or 918 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 88 lbs/sq ft or 431 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.95
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
35t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
20t - Observation Balloon
A refit of the Chikumas. Fire control added, 3" guns swapped out for 2" rotaries, torpedoes upgraded to 21" triples. Extra boats and marine accommodations removed. Extra wireless, observation balloon, flagship/SIGINT facilities, and liaison officer accommodations added.
Designed primarily to be a liaison cruiser, to allow for greater integration between the Japanese fleet and an allied (ie Aztec) fleet. Secondary missions include colonial flagship, signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection platform, raiding, and diplomatic dispatch.
Chikuma class, Japan Cruiser laid down 1903
Displacement:
4,000 t light; 4,190 t standard; 4,760 t normal; 5,216 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(402.47 ft / 400.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (17.00 / 18.22 ft)
(122.67 m / 121.92 m) x 14.94 m x (5.18 / 5.55 m)
Armament:
2 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 170 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1903 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,069 lbs / 485 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 352.00 ft / 107.29 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 135 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,954 ihp / 8,918 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,026 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
286 - 372
Cost:
£0.462 million / $1.846 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 231 tons, 4.9 %
- Guns: 231 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 689 tons, 14.5 %
- Belts: 277 tons, 5.8 %
- Armament: 48 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 358 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,760 tons, 37.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,130 tons, 23.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 760 tons, 16.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 190 tons, 4.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 140 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,581 lbs / 1,171 Kg = 10.1 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.48 ft / 3.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 135.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.0 %
Waterplane Area: 13,059 Square feet or 1,213 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 325 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 1.02
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
50t - 2 x LR Wireless
20t - 6 x 21" Torpedo Tubes
20t - Observation balloon
50t - Flagship/SIGINT Facilities
30t - Liaison Officer Accommodations
20t - Fire Control
Eh, to slow at 21knts to be worth it. Maybe just to one of them when you EoL scrap the other three.
Update to 23-24 Kts would be better ...
Or reuse all 8 x 203 turrets and build modern cruisers with these turrets,
with higher speed, better armor...
What's the cost?
Just 400t and $0.4 for all 4. Just rearranging 100t of misc weight per ship.
For that price, and considering it's a 'station ship' and not a 'cruiser' by designation....I'd call the refit to be ok. It gives a locale an increased spotting ability, and the existing guns are sufficient to fend off anything short of a proper cruiser.
Yeah, it's not going to set the world on fire but it's good value for money.
With Japan now having two major rivers as borders there will be an additional emphasis on river boats. This is version of the Toph Maru class, designed to support and repair river patrol boats and MTBs up to 40t.
Toph Maru III, Japan River Boat Tender laid down 1916
Displacement:
401 t light; 414 t standard; 442 t normal; 464 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.40 / 5.61 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.23 m x (1.65 / 1.71 m)
Armament:
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 24 lbs / 11 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.50" / 13 mm, Aft 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,616 shp / 1,205 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 49 tons
Complement:
47 - 62
Cost:
£0.039 million / $0.156 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 1.0 %
- Guns: 4 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.8 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.5 %
- Conning Towers: 1 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 60 tons, 13.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 158 tons, 35.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 40 tons, 9.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 175 tons, 39.6 %
- Hull below water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,219 lbs / 553 Kg = 304.7 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.24 ft / 2.21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.9 %
Waterplane Area: 3,699 Square feet or 344 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 142 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 156 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
5t - Flagship Accommodations
20t - Observation Balloon
80t - MTB support
50t - Out of port resupply
20t - Electric Drive
Cheap colonial/littoral destroyer. Designed to fight in shallow and enclosed waters. Electric drive for maneuverability and a heavy torpedo armament.
Kawakaze class, Japan Littoral Destroyer laid down 1917
Displacement:
500 t light; 527 t standard; 578 t normal; 619 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(302.12 ft / 300.00 ft) x 25.00 ft x (7.10 / 7.41 ft)
(92.08 m / 91.44 m) x 7.62 m x (2.16 / 2.26 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 130 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 213 lbs / 97 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.50" / 13 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 8,841 shp / 6,595 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 91 tons
Complement:
58 - 76
Cost:
£0.110 million / $0.440 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 37 tons, 6.4 %
- Guns: 37 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.8 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.7 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 233 tons, 40.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 136 tons, 23.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 78 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 89 tons, 15.4 %
- Hull below water: 58 tons
- On freeboard deck: 27 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
196 lbs / 89 Kg = 3.1 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.390
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 17.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 33.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 8.58 ft / 2.62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 158.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.3 %
Waterplane Area: 4,556 Square feet or 423 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 69 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 108 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.67
- Overall: 0.51
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
4t - 1908 FC
9t - Spare (for now)
18t - 6 x 21" Torpedoes
58t - Electric Drive
QuoteMachinery: 233 tons, 40.3 %
"Architecture
The Capital Ship Architecture tech applies to any ship carrying guns with a bore diameter of 210mm or more carrying its armament in turrets. If the weapons are less than 210mm or not turreted, the Cruiser Architecture tech applies.
Ships built to Destroyer Architecture must have at least 50% of the Distribution of weights at normal displacement section of their Springsharp allocated to Machinery...For Destroyer, you need 50% for machinery.
=> Speed update to around 29.5kts.
I think there's a bit of a question about electric drive as its misc weight but also machinery weight. With the 58t of extra weight for the electric drives its well over the 50% threshold.
Yes the ship has over 50% allocation to machinery, once you add the approximately 10% of misc weight that is part of the electric drive. Electric drive has to be 25% of machinery weight, so if the machinery weight is above 40% then the electric drive will be at least 10% and together they will add up to over 50%.
If I recall this discussion the last time it came up (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7575.msg96272.html#msg96272): The additional weight added to accommodate Electric Drives or other engine modification does not count towards the 50% minimum. The Machinery weight must on its own be 50% or more.
Quote from: snip on February 21, 2021, 12:20:17 PM
If I recall this discussion the last time it came up (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7575.msg96272.html#msg96272): The additional weight added to accommodate Electric Drives or other engine modification does not count towards the 50% minimum. The Machinery weight must on its own be 50% or more.
If there's been a previous ruling, we'll stick with that.
There was a discussion but I don't see a ruling there. 50% machinery should be 50% machinery whether that is steam turbines or electric drives it's all the same.
Quote from: Desertfox on February 21, 2021, 12:58:45 PM
There was a discussion but I don't see a ruling there. 50% machinery should be 50% machinery whether that is steam turbines or electric drives it's all the same.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on December 17, 2020, 09:20:16 PM
The important part is "Machinery: xyz tons, xy.z % needs the % to be at least 50.0000000000000000000001 %
Seems definitive to me.
But that doesn't say if the electric drive % is included in that or not, which is the question.
Its clear to me that whatever the % value listed in the output of the report is the value that needs to be met to be in compliance with the rule. The posted design only has 40.3% and is therefor invalid.
The electric drive additional misc weight is mandatory and is absolutely part of the machinery. I don't see any good argument for why we shouldn't be counting it. Note this also applies to hydraulic and diesel engines. Are you saying that destroyers with turbo-electric drives need to have 62.5% of their weight dedicated to machinery alone?
You do not need to use the destroyer architecture, that is a choice you are making.
You are perfectly free to make the choice to use the cruiser rules to make your ship.
If you wish to make the choice to use the Destroyer Architecture standard you are choosing to meet is :
"Ships built to Destroyer Architecture must have at least 50% of the Distribution of weights at normal displacement section of their Springsharp allocated to Machinery."
It's a simple, consistent metric, and compliance can easily be determined and replicated in the springsharp.
Since your choice to use turbo-electric gear is something that we add under miscellaneous weight, it will not be reflected under the Machinery section.
Add some inefficiency and coal and it works
Kawakaze class, Japan Littoral Destroyer laid down 1917
Displacement:
504 t light; 531 t standard; 606 t normal; 666 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(292.29 ft / 290.00 ft) x 25.00 ft x (7.70 / 8.17 ft)
(89.09 m / 88.39 m) x 7.62 m x (2.35 / 2.49 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 130 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 213 lbs / 97 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,853 ihp / 7,350 Kw = 27.40 kts
Range 2,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 134 tons (40% coal)
Complement:
60 - 79
Cost:
£0.128 million / $0.512 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 37 tons, 6.1 %
- Guns: 37 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 303 tons, 50.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 140 tons, 23.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 102 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 23 tons, 3.8 %
- On freeboard deck: 18 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
161 lbs / 73 Kg = 2.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 8.82 ft / 2.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.5 %
Waterplane Area: 4,404 Square feet or 409 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 110 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.80
- Overall: 0.52
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
5t - 1908 FC
18t - 6 x 21" Torpedoes
Well done, VTE are the solution.
Coal is a good option because it allows boilers to run with wood, which is available almost everywhere on the coasts.
I've been toying with similar designs.
I go back and forth on coal.
While Parthia has lot of oil, one of her operating presumptions is that in a war, distant colonies may have to fend for themselves for a while,
so being able to use local coal/wood , or purchase/capture mecantile coal would be advantageous.
Here, you've discovered what I have, that allocating enough machinery to meet the 50% threshold drives the speed too high for seakeeping,
and that machinery seems to have more of an effect on comp hull than simple misc weight.
While since coal has lower thermal efficiency, you need more boilers - hence machinery weight - per shp.
The VTE aspect is a cute workaround to the problems of "too much speed". Technically it's sidestepping the intent of the rules, but it does follow the letter.
As an engineer, I just hate having to deliberately design inefficiencies into a design, but if that's what it takes to get a working design so be it.
***
Auxiliary river patrol boat, can support itself.
No 1, Japan River Patrol Boat laid down 1917
Displacement:
99 t light; 103 t standard; 109 t normal; 113 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(101.23 ft / 100.00 ft) x 15.00 ft x (5.40 / 5.57 ft)
(30.86 m / 30.48 m) x 4.57 m x (1.65 / 1.70 m)
Armament:
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, forward deck forward
Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 5 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 912 shp / 681 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 1,200nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 11 tons
Complement:
16 - 21
Cost:
£0.016 million / $0.064 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 2.0 %
- Guns: 2 tons, 2.0 %
Machinery: 33 tons, 30.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 41 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9 tons, 8.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 23 tons, 21.1 %
- Hull below water: 8 tons
- On freeboard deck: 14 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
125 lbs / 57 Kg = 31.2 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 10.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.470 / 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 10.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.1 %
Waterplane Area: 973 Square feet or 90 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 101 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.80
- Longitudinal: 7.56
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
1t - FC
10t - Out-of-port Supplies
4t - Marine/Mortar Squad
8t - Electric Drive
Quote from: Desertfox on February 21, 2021, 04:45:55 PM
As an engineer, I just hate having to deliberately design inefficiencies into a design, but if that's what it takes to get a working design so be it.
Springsharp "charges" to much for destroyer machinery.
We recognize that and have special rules for "Destroyer architecture" that both reduce the comp hull needed, and then give a speed boost on top of that.
The intent being to allow modeling ships similar to historic destroyers with the modeling tool available.
To avoid arguments over if a ship 'counts', there's the machinery rule.
I will observe that the weight of Turbo electric gear should actually be tied to the SHP, which is what it's conveying, not engine weight.
Anyhow, you wanted a gunboat, you didn't feel like using the cruiser rules to make it.
Fast destroyers pay penalties in comp hull and seakeeping, so you found a work around and chose an inefficient engine to make a slow destroyer,
so you could shoehorn it under the destroyer architecture.
It's a neat trick, legit under the rules, and gives you a gunboat with a heck of a bang for the buck.
From a realism standpoint, the VTE has the benefit of being 'easier' to build, IE not needing highly specialized machinery or technical training that you would to build turbines. They're also something far more common on commercial shipping, so you can have some certainty of both repair parts and skilled mechanics in the wider world, which is useful for maintenance in colonies.
Cheap simple destroyer escort.
Abukuma, Japan ASW Frigate laid down 1917
Displacement:
269 t light; 281 t standard; 319 t normal; 349 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(201.76 ft / 200.00 ft) x 21.00 ft x (7.00 / 7.42 ft)
(61.50 m / 60.96 m) x 6.40 m x (2.13 / 2.26 m)
Armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 130 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 50.0 cal guns - 4.23lbs / 1.92kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
Weight of broadside 76 lbs / 34 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,698 ihp / 3,505 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 3,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 68 tons (40% coal)
Complement:
37 - 49
Cost:
£0.064 million / $0.257 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 13 tons, 4.2 %
- Guns: 13 tons, 4.2 %
Machinery: 158 tons, 49.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 80 tons, 24.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 50 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 5.6 %
- On freeboard deck: 17 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
98 lbs / 44 Kg = 1.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 32.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 18.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Average freeboard: 8.35 ft / 2.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.6 %
Waterplane Area: 2,551 Square feet or 237 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 51 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 92 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
17t for ASW Equipment
1t for 1908 FC
Quote from: Desertfox on February 22, 2021, 10:03:03 AM
Machinery: 158 tons, 49.6 %
Looks like there is a bit of an issue here
I really hate that rule. I swear it was at 50, tried to fiddle with range, went back to original range and didn't realize it hadn't changed. This should be fixed and cheaper.
Abukuma, Japan ASW Frigate laid down 1917
Displacement:
252 t light; 264 t standard; 303 t normal; 335 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(191.76 ft / 190.00 ft) x 21.00 ft x (7.00 / 7.45 ft)
(58.45 m / 57.91 m) x 6.40 m x (2.13 / 2.27 m)
Armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
Weight of broadside 75 lbs / 34 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,715 ihp / 3,517 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 1,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 70 tons (20% coal)
Complement:
36 - 47
Cost:
£0.061 million / $0.245 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 13 tons, 4.3 %
- Guns: 13 tons, 4.3 %
Machinery: 152 tons, 50.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 71 tons, 23.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 51 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 5.3 %
- On freeboard deck: 15 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
83 lbs / 38 Kg = 1.3 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.394
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.78 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 44.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 6.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 8.32 ft / 2.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89.4 %
Waterplane Area: 2,424 Square feet or 225 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 88 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
1t for 1908 FC
15t for ASW Equipment
I'm not really sure I see the point of doing a new-build design for this role. Why wont an older ship do?
I'm not exactly swimming in old ships with plenty of reserve misc weight.
Refit of the Kamikazes. Converted completely to oil fired, 3" guns replaced with 5" guns, twin torpedo tubes replaced with triples, and FC added. Cost is 0.04 BP and $0.18 per ship.
Kamikaze, Japan Destroyer laid down 1904
Displacement:
427 t light; 448 t standard; 487 t normal; 518 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(252.12 ft / 250.00 ft) x 24.00 ft x (7.10 / 7.40 ft)
(76.84 m / 76.20 m) x 7.32 m x (2.16 / 2.25 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 174 lbs / 79 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,936 shp / 6,666 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 1,900nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 70 tons
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
51 - 67
Cost:
£0.061 million / $0.244 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 31 tons, 6.3 %
- Guns: 31 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 5 tons, 1.1 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 266 tons, 54.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 110 tons, 22.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 60 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 3.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 12 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
103 lbs / 46 Kg = 1.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.83
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.409
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 84
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.48 ft / 2.58 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 193.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.0 %
Waterplane Area: 3,693 Square feet or 343 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 28 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 105 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.94
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
3t - 1908 FC
12t - 6 18" TT
Basically the same, armament upgrade and converted to full oil firing.
Umikaze, Japan Destroyer laid down 1910
Displacement:
590 t light; 621 t standard; 662 t normal; 695 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(292.64 ft / 290.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (7.40 / 7.64 ft)
(89.20 m / 88.39 m) x 8.23 m x (2.26 / 2.33 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1910 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 213 lbs / 97 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,563 shp / 11,610 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 2,300nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 74 tons
Complement:
64 - 84
Cost:
£0.078 million / $0.311 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 37 tons, 5.6 %
- Guns: 37 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.8 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.6 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 335 tons, 50.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 197 tons, 29.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 72 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 2.4 %
- Hull above water: 4 tons
- On freeboard deck: 12 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
189 lbs / 86 Kg = 3.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.98
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.407
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.25 ft / 3.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.8 %
Waterplane Area: 4,820 Square feet or 448 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 123 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
4t - 1908 FC
12t - 6 18" TT
Quote from: Desertfox on February 22, 2021, 11:13:47 PM
Kamikaze, Japan Destroyer laid down 1904
These seem a poor match for any modern or close to modern destroyer. Why not drop some of the 2" guns (and maybe one 5") and give them enough Misc weight to become the subhunter you are looking at a bit up the thread, and then build some more up to date destroyers?
Because while they might not be great against modern destroyers, they are absolutely murderous against MTBs, and my neighbors have ALOT of those around.
Upgraded version of the Izokazes. Upgrades torpedoes from 3 twin 18" tubes to 2 triple 21" tubes, adds depth charges, and 500nm of range. The flagship version only drops one 5" gun and the DCs, and keeps the full torpedo armament.
Improved Izokaze class, Japan Destroyer laid down 1917
Displacement:
800 t light; 840 t standard; 954 t normal; 1,045 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(302.64 ft / 300.00 ft) x 29.00 ft x (10.10 / 10.71 ft)
(92.25 m / 91.44 m) x 8.84 m x (3.08 / 3.26 m)
Armament:
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
1 raised mount
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 301 lbs / 136 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,489 shp / 15,285 Kw = 30.50 kts
Range 3,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 206 tons
Complement:
85 - 111
Cost:
£0.199 million / $0.796 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 52 tons, 5.5 %
- Guns: 52 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 477 tons, 50.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 240 tons, 25.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 154 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 29 tons, 3.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 24 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
241 lbs / 109 Kg = 3.9 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 34.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 21.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.70 ft / 3.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.1 %
Waterplane Area: 5,284 Square feet or 491 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 57 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 135 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
5t - 1908 FC
18t - 6 x 21" Torpedoes
6t - 24 x DC
***
Izokaze class, Japan Destroyer laid down 1917
Displacement:
802 t light; 840 t standard; 954 t normal; 1,045 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(302.64 ft / 300.00 ft) x 29.00 ft x (10.10 / 10.71 ft)
(92.25 m / 91.44 m) x 8.84 m x (3.08 / 3.26 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 238 lbs / 108 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,489 shp / 15,285 Kw = 30.50 kts
Range 3,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 206 tons
Complement:
85 - 111
Cost:
£0.195 million / $0.778 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 42 tons, 4.4 %
- Guns: 42 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 480 tons, 50.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 236 tons, 24.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 152 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 44 tons, 4.6 %
- On freeboard deck: 40 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
246 lbs / 112 Kg = 3.9 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 33.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 22.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.65 ft / 3.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.1 %
Waterplane Area: 5,284 Square feet or 491 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 130 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
6t - 1908 FC + Flag facilities
18t - 6 x 21" Torpedoes
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
Japan has plenty of undeveloped anchorages and short-legged destroyers. A dedicated Destroyer/Sub tender is in order. Can support a full squadron of 12 subs or destroyers, while freeing up the big Kobayashi Marus for use with the fleet.
Seta Maru, Japan Destroyer/Submarine Tender laid down 1917
Displacement:
1,997 t light; 2,064 t standard; 2,666 t normal; 3,148 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(302.47 ft / 300.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (14.40 / 16.43 ft)
(92.19 m / 91.44 m) x 12.19 m x (4.39 / 5.01 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 174 lbs / 79 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,148 shp / 3,094 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 9,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,084 tons
Complement:
185 - 241
Cost:
£0.193 million / $0.770 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 42 tons, 1.6 %
- Guns: 42 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 152 tons, 5.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 643 tons, 24.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 669 tons, 25.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,155 tons, 43.3 %
- Hull below water: 500 tons
- Hull above water: 500 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 55 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,272 lbs / 1,938 Kg = 68.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.54
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.559
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.40 ft / 2.87 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.9 %
Waterplane Area: 8,297 Square feet or 771 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 166 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 263 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
55t - Long-range Wireless/Experimental Radar/FC
80t - 2 x 20 ton Boats
20t - Observation Balloon
1000t - Out-of-Port Resupply
Dedicated torpedo attack destroyer. Loses a 5" gun, two 2" gatlings, and the ASW suite, in exchange for twice the torpedo tubes.
Improved Sakura class, Japan Destroyer laid down 1917
Displacement:
740 t light; 773 t standard; 879 t normal; 964 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(302.64 ft / 300.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (10.00 / 10.60 ft)
(92.25 m / 91.44 m) x 8.23 m x (3.05 / 3.23 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 130 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 213 lbs / 97 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,993 shp / 14,169 Kw = 30.40 kts
Range 3,300nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 191 tons
Complement:
79 - 104
Cost:
£0.178 million / $0.712 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 37 tons, 4.2 %
- Guns: 37 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 441 tons, 50.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 222 tons, 25.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 139 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 4.5 %
- On freeboard deck: 36 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
226 lbs / 102 Kg = 3.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.3 %
Waterplane Area: 4,920 Square feet or 457 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 57 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 127 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
4t - 1908 FC
36t - 12 x 21" Torpedoes
Are these torpedos all intended to be mounted on the centerline or in pairs on each side?
On the centerline, the Sakuras have 4 twins on the centerline, these have triples.
Updated the Kawakaze to make them 100t cheaper. They lose one 5" gun and two 21" torpedoes (and a bit of range) but gain an ASW capability and another gatling mount. This means the Abukuma ASW Frigates are not longer needed and wont be built.
Kawakaze class, Japan Littoral Destroyer laid down 1917
Displacement:
400 t light; 420 t standard; 475 t normal; 519 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(271.94 ft / 270.00 ft) x 22.50 ft x (7.20 / 7.62 ft)
(82.89 m / 82.30 m) x 6.86 m x (2.19 / 2.32 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 110 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
9 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
Weight of broadside 162 lbs / 74 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,193 ihp / 6,112 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 99 tons
Complement:
50 - 66
Cost:
£0.101 million / $0.402 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 28 tons, 6.0 %
- Guns: 28 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 238 tons, 50.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 113 tons, 23.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 75 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 4.2 %
- On freeboard deck: 17 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
123 lbs / 56 Kg = 2.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.392
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 18.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 40.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 22.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 8.30 ft / 2.53 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.1 %
Waterplane Area: 3,690 Square feet or 343 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 44 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 101 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.87
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
3t - 1908 FC
12t - 4 x 21" Torpedoes or 6 x 18" Torpedoes
5t - 20 DCs
Image of all the new destroyer designs (right) and the current IJN destroyers (left). Note, the Kamikaze and Umikaze class are shown as refitted.
One of the Toph Maru IIIs will be finished to a different configuration. The armament and supplies will be replaced with experimental equipment to support two radio-guided 20t MTBs. The project will be led by the CEO of Future Industries, Asami Sato.
Hiroshi Sato, Japan Experimental Mothership laid down 1916
Displacement:
401 t light; 410 t standard; 442 t normal; 467 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.40 / 5.64 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.23 m x (1.65 / 1.72 m)
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,616 shp / 1,205 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,900nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 57 tons
Complement:
47 - 62
Cost:
£0.037 million / $0.147 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 60 tons, 13.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 156 tons, 35.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 40 tons, 9.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 185 tons, 41.9 %
- Hull below water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 140 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,290 lbs / 585 Kg = 11.9 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.537
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.24 ft / 2.21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.9 %
Waterplane Area: 3,699 Square feet or 344 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 151 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
25t - LR Wireless
40t - Experimental stuff
20t - Observation Balloon
80t - 2 x 20t MTB support
20t - Electric Drive
Dedicated torpedo cruisers based on the Furutakas but with lighter main armament and with four triple 21" tubes per side plus six reloads. Two planned, Kitakami, Kiso. A half sister (Oi) will replace the torpedo tubes with space for four 20t radio-guided MTBs.
Kitakami class, Japan Light Cruiser laid down 1917
Displacement:
3,097 t light; 3,202 t standard; 3,724 t normal; 4,142 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(453.35 ft / 450.00 ft) x 45.00 ft x (15.70 / 16.87 ft)
(138.18 m / 137.16 m) x 13.72 m x (4.79 / 5.14 m)
Armament:
6 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 427 lbs / 194 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 37,808 shp / 28,205 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 940 tons
Complement:
237 - 309
Cost:
£0.620 million / $2.481 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 111 tons, 3.0 %
- Guns: 111 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 194 tons, 5.2 %
- Armament: 24 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 170 tons, 4.6 %
Machinery: 1,386 tons, 37.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,271 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 628 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 135 tons, 3.6 %
- On freeboard deck: 90 tons
- Above deck: 45 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,521 lbs / 1,144 Kg = 40.3 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.410 / 0.424
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.60 ft / 4.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.1 %
Waterplane Area: 12,541 Square feet or 1,165 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 65 lbs/sq ft or 318 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 0.90
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
20t - 1908 Fire Control
25t - Long-range wireless
90t - 24 x 21" Torpedo Tubes + 6 reloads
Quote from: Desertfox on March 04, 2021, 11:50:41 PM
One of the Toph Maru IIIs will be finished to a different configuration. The armament and supplies will be replaced with experimental equipment to support two radio-guided 20t MTBs. The project will be led by the CEO of Future Industries, Asami Sato.
So, I got a PM to come look at this thread.
I looked, I wrote a reply, my internet hiccuped, and it got lost.
ARGH.
Let's hit the high points.
A) Dunno if it's come up before, it may well have been overlooked - but the balloon is an aircraft, and so should be 25t.
Basically they are the WW1 Kite Balloons several navies tried.
Kite balloons proved to have no functional offensive descendants, they are merely observation platforms. No problems.
B) Storyline stuff.
The presumption is that most non-warship things we need are somewhere in a major power's fleet - mercantile or naval.
Further while real-life TDS testing involved building caisons or retrofitting old ships and testing them...that's all handwaved under the Research $.
So, the ship really isn't needed at all. You can simply allude to having one.
C) Building it.
You are of course free to actually build it instead of considering it part of the storyline.
Here a couple points come up.
1. 'Maru' I believe means merchant, so I presume it's intended as an Aux build.
2. if the 80t is "tender" support for 2 x 20t MTB, it's waaaaaaay more than needed.
3. Since the rule is launchable vessels, such as MTBs, take twice the tonnage, I'd assumed the 80t = 2x 20tx 2. Ok, meant to be combat -launchable MTBs.
If they are combat-launchable, then they are weapon systems.
To qualify for Auxiliary consideration the weight needs to be under 2%.
400 x 0.02= 8t.
So they do not qualify to even be considered for auxiliary status.
They are of course buildable under standard ship architectures.
D)
If you choose to build it, and field non-"off the shelf" MTBs, then you'll need a Springsharp of the MTBs.
As discussed previously the MTBs and Subs in the tech section are not modifiable.
E)
Further, be advised that the Signals Tech has not been extended to a point where militarily useful drones are possible.
F) Which brings us back to creativity and storylines, you are free to build things that fail. I just think it's fair to let you know in advance.
I'm assuming the radio-controlled MTBs are intended as expended guided weapons, rather than being capable of remote-launching torpedoes.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on March 05, 2021, 03:50:32 PM
I'm assuming the radio-controlled MTBs are intended as expended guided weapons, rather than being capable of remote-launching torpedoes.
I'd still qualify such as a militarily useful drone, assuming the intent is for it to be guided and not just turned loose in a strait line.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on March 05, 2021, 03:50:32 PM
I'm assuming the radio-controlled MTBs are intended as expended guided weapons, rather than being capable of remote-launching torpedoes.
I was kinda assuming an exploding ramming type thing.
Either way, it's a weapon system, or adaptable as one, so can be built under normal warship rules, but doesn't qualify for consideration as an aux.
QuoteA) Dunno if it's come up before, it may well have been overlooked - but the balloon is an aircraft, and so should be 25t.
Basically they are the WW1 Kite Balloons several navies tried.
Kite balloons proved to have no functional offensive descendants, they are merely observation platforms. No problems.
Observation balloons where discussed but no tonnage actually assigned to them. I do have a few ships with varying amounts of tonnage assigned already. Considering the British used them on small destroyers, I would argue that these balloons and similar aircraft (WWII U-Boat autogyro kites) should be assigned a lower tonnage amount.
***
As for the main points. The MTBs in this case are supposed to be unarmed since the goal is to see if they can be controlled remotely. This is purely a research ship, as are the MTBs. The goal is to eventually have combat capable MTBs, but that is not the case here.
As for the tech, there is no tech that covers this in the tech tree. But historically Tesla and others demonstrated the technology as early as 1897. HMS Agamemnon was converted to radio-control in 1920 and USS Iowa in 1922. The British experimented with RC planes in 1917 and even with Coastal Motor Boats (MTBs) controlling them from the air. Time-wise, this is the correct timeframe for these kinds of experiments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_control)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Motor_Boat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Motor_Boat)
Quote from: snip on March 05, 2021, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on March 05, 2021, 03:50:32 PM
I'm assuming the radio-controlled MTBs are intended as expended guided weapons, rather than being capable of remote-launching torpedoes.
I'd still qualify such as a militarily useful drone, assuming the intent is for it to be guided and not just turned loose in a strait line.
Right, I'm just seeking clarification on whether the MTB carries weapons or is the weapon.
While recognizing that it is an experimental platform with no actual combat utility.
My original intention was to eventually have air-dropped radio-guided long lances, so initially the MTBs would be the weapon. But since MTBs can't be modified, they would have to actually launch the torpedoes (and then crash but less satisfyingly). Of course that would be the initial operational versions, eventually they would be replaced by proper non-MTB based torpedoes.
Quote from: Desertfox on March 05, 2021, 04:21:24 PM
My original intention was to eventually have air-dropped radio-guided long lances, so initially the MTBs would be the weapon. But since MTBs can't be modified, they would have to actually launch the torpedoes (and then crash but less satisfyingly). Of course that would be the initial operational versions, eventually they would be replaced by proper non-MTB based torpedoes.
Well good thing that remote guided torps are already in the tech tree
Quote from: snip on August 10, 2017, 09:02:39 AM
1945: Advanced magnetic firing pistols. Early programmable paths. Primitive remote guidance methods.
But that only applies to submerged torpedoes, correct? Nothing about remotely throwing one ship against another.
I'm not horribly worried about kite balloon tonnage,
going forward though it should be a set amount so we have consistancy ship to ship.
I mean if Nation A puts 15t / balloon, and Nation B 5t, while Nation C has 25t..... do they have the same utility?
The minimal tonnage for 1 aircraft is 25t..., that's already in effect, so let's use that.
As for the MTBs - the problem is 20t MTBs can be loaded and launched with no modification. The difference between a research one and a "off the shelf" is minimal.
So - compromise - drop the weight of the MTBs to 19t, total 76t for two - that way you can't be loading the 20t MTBs, but you can still replicate your research concept.
I used signals as an example, as it's possible we'll add some techs to the late trees to cover things that are missing.
As for the technology, if there is none that covers it, then it will not be successful in operational use.
We all know there were radio controlled target ships, but I can't think of a single case of a radio guided drone ship used in combat successfully- either to ram or to fire torps.
QuoteI'm not horribly worried about kite balloon tonnage,
going forward though it should be a set amount so we have consistancy ship to ship.
I mean if Nation A puts 15t / balloon, and Nation B 5t, while Nation C has 25t..... do they have the same utility?
Looking thru my ships, I've used 10t, 20t, and 40t. I can live with 20t (and a grandfather clause).
QuoteAs for the MTBs - the problem is 20t MTBs can be loaded and launched with no modification. The difference between a research one and a "off the shelf" is minimal.
So - compromise - drop the weight of the MTBs to 19t, total 76t for two - that way you can't be loading the 20t MTBs, but you can still replicate your research concept.
That's a problem for a lot of other auxiliaries as well. Can't we just do the whole "paid as aux - cannot do combat launches"? Its a simple yes/no check.
QuoteWe all know there were radio controlled target ships, but I can't think of a single case of a radio guided drone ship used in combat successfully- either to ram or to fire torps.
Most likely a case of developed too late for WWI and OBE by the time of WWII. The British quite clearly demonstrated the capability to remotely maneuver up to 8 MTBs at a time from an aircraft in 1918. The technology is available in this time period and the extensive usage of MTBs would make it more likely for such a track to be followed compared to say tanks, where the lack of trench warfare has stalled development.
Balloons - past is grandfathered in, no problem. Future, I'd like to match the base Aircraft and move that future point to 25t. Look at it this way, eventually you'd be able to replace them with a floatplane.
Combat launches - that's already there. List them as just their weight and they just deck cargo. It's listing them as twice that weight and thus eligible for combat launch that triggers this consideration.
Yes, we know there were RC ships. But there was no actual combat implementation. Trials, experiments, creative storytelling - sure go ahead.
But I don't want to have the argument later that these experimental items can be used in a conflict and a special carve out made for them.
I'm stating very very clearly that without a supporting Technology they will not be operational useful.
This is the problem:
QuoteAikoku Maru, Japan AMC/Troop Transport laid down 1910
200t - 4 x 25-ton landing boats
The ships where designed before 20t MTBs were an option. But overnight they gained the ability to carry and combat launch them. If davits can handle 25t they can handle 20t without a problem. And the Aikokus are not the only ships with this capability (Aztec LSS-1 etc). All I'm saying is there are legitimate auxiliary reasons for ships to be capable of conducting a "combat" load and unload of a MTB that don't actually involve combat. The Toph Maru III itself is designed to pick up MTBs for repairs. I don't mind adding a "non-combat" disclaimer, but just saying "twice the weight = automatic combat launch" is opening a whole can of worms, as suddenly ANY ship that is designed to with the "twice the weight" rule for 20t or larger boats is now no longer an auxiliary whether it was designed for combat or not.
In the example it's specified as 25t landing craft. That's all it gets to carry.
The question of if the davits for a shorter beamier landing craft can handle a longer slimmer MTB is irrelevant,
you are tied to the miscellaneous weight specified.
If you want to convert it to launch 20t MTBs, then you have to refit it,
at which point it will be disallowed.
I should also make clear :
I do not have time to look at the ship design thread often.
I wish I did, I like seeing what others are doing, but generally not.
I wandered by the Vilnus thread the other day, but that's unusual.
Ship review is usually the purview of the players.
So, an existing design is not necessarily precedent
If there's a question, send me a PM and I'll make time to come look.
That was the case here, I was asked to take a look.
Overall the easiest solution would be to declare a vessel can't have more than 2% weight allocated to launchable (as opposed to deck cargo) craft.
That would take care of your landing craft -> MTB's example.
It's actually cheaper to call them Deck Cargo, so making that choice to making them combat launchable is a bit of a heads ups up.
But I'd rather be more specific to the individual vessel. Which unfortunately means I have to spend time on these discussions.
The issue is that I may want to have a capability equivalent to "combat launchable" for a completely non-combat related reason. Case in point the Toph Maru III is designed specifically to be capable of recovering MTBs away from port facilities, this is 100% an auxiliary role (and not "deck cargo") and there is zero intent for it to conduct combat launches, but the necessary equipment is the same. What I don't understand is why we can't just add a "no combat launches allowed" disclaimer? That way I can keep the necessary auxiliary capability while at the same time making it clear, the ship won't be used in a combat role.
Made drawings of the Furutakas, Kitakamis, and Oi.
Japan is starting 1910 ASW Tech in H1/1917. As part of that a couple of improved Kaibokans will be built as testbeds for ASW equipment and tech. Main change other than the misc weight is the addition of electric drive.
Kaibokan II, Japan ASW Testbed laid down 1917
Displacement:
299 t light; 307 t standard; 374 t normal; 427 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(172.12 ft / 170.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.70 / 6.33 ft)
(52.46 m / 51.82 m) x 8.23 m x (1.74 / 1.93 m)
Armament:
1 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal gun - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
Weight of broadside 4 lbs / 2 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 1,558 shp / 1,162 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 120 tons
Complement:
42 - 55
Cost:
£0.034 million / $0.136 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Guns: 1 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 57 tons, 15.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 145 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 74 tons, 19.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 97 tons, 26.0 %
- Hull below water: 14 tons
- On freeboard deck: 83 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,217 lbs / 552 Kg = 304.2 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.514
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 31.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 14.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.20 ft / 2.80 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.3 %
Waterplane Area: 2,940 Square feet or 273 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 175 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 157 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.60
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
25t - Experimental Radar
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
20t - Basic + Enhanced Hydrophone Suite
10t - Minesweeping Gear
8t - Misc ASW Weapons
Fast transport capable of carrying and landing 120 marines or 250t of supplies anywhere.
Matsu, Japan Fast Transport/Dispatch Boat laid down 1917
Displacement:
1,700 t light; 1,764 t standard; 2,029 t normal; 2,241 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(342.64 ft / 340.00 ft) x 47.00 ft x (10.10 / 10.83 ft)
(104.44 m / 103.63 m) x 14.33 m x (3.08 / 3.30 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 213 lbs / 97 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.20" / 5 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,674 shp / 9,454 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 477 tons
Complement:
150 - 196
Cost:
£0.245 million / $0.981 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 38 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 38 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 465 tons, 22.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 780 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 329 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 415 tons, 20.5 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 150 tons
- On freeboard deck: 135 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,289 lbs / 1,492 Kg = 52.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.453
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.23 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.12 ft / 3.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.6 %
Waterplane Area: 10,112 Square feet or 939 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 140 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 282 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.43
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
5t - 1908 Fire Control
25t - LR Wireless
20t - Observation Balloon
15t - Minesweeping Gear
100t - 2 x 25t Boats
250t - Supplies/Marines
Updated the fast transport, now cheaper and with a nice round 420t of misc weight for all of your drug smuggling needs... Do like how it looks a lot more now.
Matsu Maru, Japan Fast Transport/Dispatch Boat laid down 1917
Displacement:
1,327 t light; 1,379 t standard; 1,711 t normal; 1,977 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(342.47 ft / 340.00 ft) x 44.00 ft x (9.10 / 10.08 ft)
(104.38 m / 103.63 m) x 13.41 m x (2.77 / 3.07 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 174 lbs / 79 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,705 shp / 5,002 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 598 tons
Complement:
132 - 172
Cost:
£0.163 million / $0.651 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 32 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 32 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 246 tons, 14.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 628 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 385 tons, 22.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 420 tons, 24.5 %
- Hull below water: 90 tons
- Hull above water: 170 tons
- On freeboard deck: 130 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,554 lbs / 1,612 Kg = 56.9 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.459
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.9 %
Waterplane Area: 9,466 Square feet or 879 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 172 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 51 lbs/sq ft or 250 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.07
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
5t - 1908 Fire Control
25t - LR Wireless
20t - Observation Balloon
10t - Minesweeping Gear
120t - 4 x 15t Boats
240t - Supplies/Marines
I'd chop the gun shields. 3mm of plating would just cause more splinters to come flying at the gunner.....if it was hit with rifle rounds. I wouldn't hold much confidence that 3mm of steel could stop pistol rounds at combat ranges. Might as well have the mounts wholly open and save the weight.
Oh it's not so much armor as weather shielding, in reality I was feeling lazy and didn't feel like drawing a 5" gun without a shield.
Potential upgrade of the Tenryus. Adds bigger torpedoes, 2" Gatlings, and MTB capability, does lose its observation balloon capability.
Improved Tenryu, Japan Littoral Combattant laid down 1917
Displacement:
1,397 t light; 1,459 t standard; 1,741 t normal; 1,967 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(342.64 ft / 340.00 ft) x 42.00 ft x (9.70 / 10.57 ft)
(104.44 m / 103.63 m) x 12.80 m x (2.96 / 3.22 m)
Armament:
5 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 339 lbs / 154 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,328 shp / 8,451 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,900nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 508 tons
Complement:
134 - 175
Cost:
£0.252 million / $1.007 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 89 tons, 5.1 %
- Guns: 89 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.8 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 415 tons, 23.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 624 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 344 tons, 19.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 255 tons, 14.6 %
- Hull above water: 200 tons
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 35 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,741 lbs / 790 Kg = 27.9 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.456
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 37.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 18.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 11.22 ft / 3.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.6 %
Waterplane Area: 9,036 Square feet or 839 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 259 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 0.90
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
10t - 1908 Fire Control
25t - LR Wireless
20t - 6 x 21" Torpedo Tubes
80t - 2 x 20t MTBs
120t - Mines/Supplies/Marines
Just out of curiosity where is the original Tenryu design?
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7400.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7400.0.html)
And we could use a Norse player...
I'd call it over-armed and too slow if its duties are in any way offensive, such as blockade-running.
Quote from: Desertfox on March 15, 2021, 01:12:23 PM
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7400.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7400.0.html)
And we could use a Norse player...
For sure.
It would primarily be a multi-purpose colonial gunboat. Show the flag, deal with pirates/locals, do some raiding, tangle with light forces, lay defensive minefields, etc. Basically a cheap cruiser.
Okay, so more defensive in nature.
I have lots of zeppelins and lots of islands. So I need something like the USS Patoka (AO-9). The MTBs provide support for mooring operations.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Uss_Patoka_AO9.jpg)
Kamikawa Maru class, Japan Zeppelin Tender laid down 1917
Displacement:
9,310 t light; 9,546 t standard; 10,569 t normal; 11,388 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(442.47 ft / 440.00 ft) x 59.00 ft x (25.00 / 26.55 ft)
(134.86 m / 134.11 m) x 17.98 m x (7.62 / 8.09 m)
Armament:
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.92lbs / 49.41kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 121 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 8,807 shp / 6,570 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 7,300nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,842 tons
Complement:
520 - 677
Cost:
£0.717 million / $2.868 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 66 tons, 0.6 %
- Guns: 66 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 6 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 323 tons, 3.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,166 tons, 20.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,259 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,750 tons, 63.9 %
- Hull below water: 5,090 tons
- Hull above water: 1,400 tons
- On freeboard deck: 160 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,425 lbs / 6,090 Kg = 124.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.59
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.578
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.46 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.24 ft / 3.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.1 %
Waterplane Area: 18,460 Square feet or 1,715 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 79 lbs/sq ft or 384 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
100t - LR Wireless, FC, C&C facilities
160t - 4 x 20t MTBs
6,400t - Aviation Point (Zeppelin) Support
90t - Electric Drive (increased subdivisions)
Eh, looks about right. And the mtbs still keep it under 2%, so they should be combat deployable as escorts.
If these ships have to work with the fleet, they are too slow.
Byzantium, which has many surveillance Zeppelins, is considering a speed of 24 kts for Zeppelin tenders.
When I get there 24 to 27kts will probably be my zepp tender speed if I do one. My fleet train does 24kts.
Japanese doctrine is to find a suitable anchorage and operate from there, hence why most of my auxiliaries are a lot slower and not designed to operate with the fleet.
I just realized, 1) I probably shouldn't jump straight to full tender support ship, 2) I have a Jingei class aux with no job just sitting around. So the Jingei (sub transport version) will be refitted with a zeppelin mooring mast and supplies, get a defensive armament upgrade, and a rearrangement of her boat transport capabilities. She carries 6 boats (4x40t and 2x20t) to provide security at the anchorage and assist with the mooring process.
Jingei (Z), Japan Zeppelin Tender laid down 1913
Displacement:
2,095 t light; 2,158 t standard; 2,370 t normal; 2,539 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (9.70 / 10.26 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 15.24 m x (2.96 / 3.13 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 174 lbs / 79 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,009 ihp / 1,498 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 381 tons (50% coal)
Complement:
169 - 220
Cost:
£0.109 million / $0.435 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 27 tons, 1.1 %
- Guns: 27 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 126 tons, 5.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 662 tons, 27.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 274 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,280 tons, 54.0 %
- Hull below water: 400 tons
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 800 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,256 lbs / 2,838 Kg = 100.1 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.49
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.578
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 10.60 ft / 3.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 43.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.2 %
Waterplane Area: 10,667 Square feet or 991 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 147 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 50 lbs/sq ft or 243 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
30t - LR wireless + FC
50t - 20 Marines + camouflauge
400t - Mast and mooring equippment for 1 Zeppelin
400t - Cranes and space for up to 4 x 40t MTB/Boats and 2 x 20t MTB/Boats
300t - 3,000t of Out-of-port resupply
100t - Zeppelin support supplies
First shot at drawing it. I really should convince Rocky that Wilno needs a AOR Pakota equivalent... Zeppelin is not accurate but to the right scale (520ft) but probably a tad fat.
I've always found cold, hard cash pretty convincing.
Actually, I feel like I did draw one for N3.
INDEED
Updated with a bit of help from Rocky.
Last 1917 design:
Kongo and Hiei
Kongo class, Japan Battlecruiser laid down 1917
Displacement:
21,999 t light; 23,480 t standard; 25,646 t normal; 27,379 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(704.76 ft / 700.00 ft) x 90.00 ft x (27.40 / 28.82 ft)
(214.81 m / 213.36 m) x 27.43 m x (8.35 / 8.78 m)
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,383.70lbs / 627.63kg shells, 135 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1917 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12,631 lbs / 5,729 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.40" / 36 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 74.00 ft / 22.56 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.40" / 61 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 75,403 shp / 56,251 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,899 tons
Complement:
1,013 - 1,317
Cost:
£4.160 million / $16.640 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,200 tons, 8.6 %
- Guns: 2,200 tons, 8.6 %
Armour: 6,270 tons, 24.4 %
- Belts: 2,356 tons, 9.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 547 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,789 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,408 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 169 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,764 tons, 10.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,346 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,648 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 420 tons, 1.6 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 220 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,994 lbs / 15,419 Kg = 24.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.92
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.84 ft / 6.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.8 %
Waterplane Area: 42,754 Square feet or 3,972 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 892 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
220t for 1912 FC
100t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
100t for Enhanced Damage Control
Armored cruisers would certainly hate this.
I think your 5" deck mount count is off, though.
Just 2 shafts? I would think 4 myself...
Quote from: eltf177 on April 08, 2021, 08:30:12 AM
Just 2 shafts? I would think 4 myself...
2 is pushing it a bit, but fine-ish. I'd think that something along the lines of 40,000hp per shaft would be the absolute max before you need to add a shaft.
Just an oversight on my part, both issues fixed.