Placeholder for now.
Will be attaching spreadsheet with proposed starter forces.
Eventually will also attach "starter' HY1, 1913 turnsheet.
Then will do RFP for any class needs unmet.
To give Anchor Steam something to look at while I tinker....
1) A 1904 Regina Elena style AC with 255/50mm guns, heavy armor, and 25knot speed.
2) A 1903 rail or road transportable gunboat - beam of 4m, length 20m, either on a special flatcar, or on skids dragged by steam traction engines.
3) A 1900 Torpedo boat (destroyer) adapted from a japanese one.
Solomonic, Ethiopia Armored Cruiser laid down 1906
Displacement:
17,499 t light; 18,352 t standard; 19,600 t normal; 20,599 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(493.77 ft / 487.20 ft) x 85.30 ft x (28.71 / 29.88 ft)
(150.50 m / 148.50 m) x 26.00 m x (8.75 / 9.11 m)
Armament:
4 - 10.04" / 255 mm 50.0 cal guns - 535.72lbs / 243.00kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
6 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.42lbs / 10.17kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1906 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 4,618 lbs / 2,095 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 316.67 ft / 96.52 m 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 170.51 ft / 51.97 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 316.67 ft / 96.52 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.54" / 90 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.98" / 355 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 57,232 shp / 42,695 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 5,750nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,246 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
827 - 1,076
Cost:
£1.622 million / $6.487 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 994 tons, 5.1 %
- Guns: 994 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 6,618 tons, 33.8 %
- Belts: 3,012 tons, 15.4 %
- Armament: 1,542 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,783 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Towers: 281 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 4,048 tons, 20.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,360 tons, 27.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,102 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 479 tons, 2.4 %
- Hull below water: 189 tons
- Hull void weights: 170 tons
- On freeboard deck: 85 tons
- Above deck: 35 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,951 lbs / 9,957 Kg = 43.4 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.575 / 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.71 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.07 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.34 ft / 7.42 m, 22.70 ft / 6.92 m
- Forward deck: 27.00 %, 22.70 ft / 6.92 m, 22.70 ft / 6.92 m
- Aft deck: 38.00 %, 14.50 ft / 4.42 m, 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.50 ft / 4.42 m, 15.16 ft / 4.62 m
- Average freeboard: 18.54 ft / 5.65 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.5 %
Waterplane Area: 29,692 Square feet or 2,759 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 668 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.94
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
+6.92 Forecastle Deck
+4.42 Weather Deck, 30mm
+2.52 Top of main belt
+1.92 3rd Deck, Crown of Protective Deck 60mm
-0.58 2nd Deck, lower edge of protective deck
-1.08 Bottom of main belt
-3.08 1st Deck
-8.08 Engineering Deck
Misc Wt.
85t - 0.5% increased ventilation
40t - 4 torpedo tubes (2 each beam) with 20 torpedoes
149t - Torpedo Nets
Adapted from an old design I had.
RGB-1, Ethiopian Rail Transport Gunboat laid down 1903
Displacement:
49 t light; 50 t standard; 52 t normal; 54 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(65.62 ft / 65.62 ft) x 13.12 ft x (3.28 / 3.37 ft)
(20.00 m / 20.00 m) x 4.00 m x (1.00 / 1.03 m)
Armament:
2 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2.80lbs / 1.27kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 0.30" / 7.5 mm 74.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.39" / 10 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 58 ihp / 43 Kw = 9.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 6.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
9 - 12
Cost:
£0.003 million / $0.013 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 2.6 %
- Guns: 1 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 2 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 3.5 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 9 tons, 16.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14 tons, 25.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 tons, 7.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 23 tons, 43.8 %
- Hull below water: 5 tons
- Hull above water: 10 tons
- On freeboard deck: 8 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
80 lbs / 36 Kg = 28.9 x 1.8 " / 45 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 8.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 89 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.79
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.653
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 8.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m, 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
- Average freeboard: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.7 %
Waterplane Area: 650 Square feet or 60 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 14 lbs/sq ft or 69 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.76
- Longitudinal: 4.26
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The Assault Lighter is a small coastal and riverine craft with a minimal keel.
The ship can maintain 6 knots for 7 days, which is the designed operating range.
A 1 ton winch sits on the foredeck,
18 tons represent room and provision for a Section (16 troops and an officer),
Misc Weight
1 - Winch
18 - Quarters
1 - Extra Quarters
3 - storage
TB-1, Ethiopian Torpedo Boat laid down 1900
Displacement:
345 t light; 355 t standard; 379 t normal; 398 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(236.22 ft / 236.22 ft) x 22.97 ft x (6.23 / 6.43 ft)
(72.00 m / 72.00 m) x 7.00 m x (1.90 / 1.96 m)
Armament:
1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1899 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
5 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2.80lbs / 1.27kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
1 x Single mount on sides, aft deck centre
Weight of broadside 27 lbs / 12 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,836 ihp / 5,846 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 1,200nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 43 tons (90% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
42 - 55
Cost:
£0.046 million / $0.186 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 1.5 %
- Guns: 6 tons, 1.5 %
Machinery: 235 tons, 62.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 96 tons, 25.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 34 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9 tons, 2.4 %
- On freeboard deck: 8 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
87 lbs / 40 Kg = 6.8 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 9.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.78
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.392 / 0.399
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.37 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m, 7.38 ft / 2.25 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.38 ft / 2.25 m, 7.38 ft / 2.25 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.38 ft / 2.25 m, 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
- Average freeboard: 8.15 ft / 2.48 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 203.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.9 %
Waterplane Area: 3,321 Square feet or 309 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 15 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 90 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.88
- Overall: 0.53
Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
1t - FC
8t - 4 Torpedoes
Ok,
Attached is my draft suggestions for the Ethiopian Navy 1894-1906.
The first tab is the drydocks. They can be expanded later if desired.
The other tabs have the various classes, and then "Suggested" is how many I think the Ethiopians should get.
In some cases that is 0....
Basically that ship is an option, but I think another way is better.
The 1906 builds do go over slightly, so ~500 tons would be removed from the 1907-1912 builds.
Oh shit, that's a lot to go over!
And yes, I can do without 25k to get the docks I need. In fact, I was already wondering about that kind of thing.
ALL of what I proposed was notional and I figure that a lot of it won't happen the way I imagined .... Ship already showed me a better 1,000-tonner than the one I had in mind.
Give me some time, this is a
LOT to go over.... :o
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:26:31 PM
Ok,
Attached is my draft suggestions for the Ethiopian Navy 1894-1906.
The first tab is the drydocks. They can be expanded later if desired.
The other tabs have the various classes, and then "Suggested" is how many I think the Ethiopians should get.
In some cases that is 0....
Basically that ship is an option, but I think another way is better.
The 1906 builds do go over slightly, so ~500 tons would be removed from the 1907-1912 builds.
The mentioned DD would be a near clone of the Roman F-class
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 08, 2020, 03:35:06 PM
Give me some time, this is a LOT to go over.... :o
Like I said, we throw you in the deep end of the pool, then toss you a filing cabinet of stuff to learn and say "Swim" !
...wait, no that what we've learned not to do...
that's right, try to be helpful...
With some slight tweeks as requested.
QuoteNot-F-Class, Ethiopian Destroyer laid down 1911
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,035 t standard; 1,126 t normal; 1,199 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(287.07 ft / 278.87 ft) x 29.53 ft x (11.48 / 11.98 ft)
(87.50 m / 85.00 m) x 9.00 m x (3.50 / 3.65 m)
Armament:
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.77lbs / 13.96kg shells, 175 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 2.94lbs / 1.34kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck centre
2 raised mounts
4 - 0.26" / 6.5 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 129 lbs / 59 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 30.84 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 163 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
96 - 126
Cost:
£0.130 million / $0.521 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 24 tons, 2.1 %
- Guns: 24 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 20 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 1.8 %
Machinery: 635 tons, 56.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 281 tons, 24.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 126 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 3.6 %
- On freeboard deck: 40 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
284 lbs / 129 Kg = 9.3 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.85
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.417 / 0.425
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.23 ft / 0.68 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Forward deck: 44.00 %, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Aft deck: 21.00 %, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 12.40 ft / 3.78 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.8 %
Waterplane Area: 5,122 Square feet or 476 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 143 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.06
- Overall: 0.58
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
"1897" sheet in KK Plan ;)
SC2, Byzantine Empire SC2 laid down 1899
Displacement:
3 950 t light; 4 093 t standard; 4 439 t normal; 4 716 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(410,00 ft / 410,00 ft) x 45,00 ft x (14,91 / 15,65 ft)
(124,97 m / 124,97 m) x 13,72 m x (4,54 / 4,77 m)
Armament:
2 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,93lbs / 49,41kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,93lbs / 49,41kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 4,00" / 102 mm 45,0 cal guns - 32,28lbs / 14,64kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 80,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 783 lbs / 355 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,97" / 25 mm 0,77" / 20 mm 0,77" / 20 mm
2nd: 0,97" / 25 mm 0,77" / 20 mm 0,77" / 20 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0,97" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1,38" / 35 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 600 ihp / 10 146 Kw = 21,92 kts
Range 4 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 623 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
271 - 353
Cost:
£0,500 million / $1,998 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 197 tons, 4,4 %
- Guns: 197 tons, 4,4 %
Armour: 283 tons, 6,4 %
- Armament: 51 tons, 1,1 %
- Armour Deck: 224 tons, 5,0 %
- Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 2 095 tons, 47,2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 272 tons, 28,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 489 tons, 11,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 104 tons, 2,3 %
- Hull below water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 78 tons
- Above deck: 10 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1 881 lbs / 853 Kg = 17,4 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,50
Metacentric height 3,0 ft / 0,9 m
Roll period: 10,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,565 / 0,572
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 14,10 ft / 4,30 m, 11,80 ft / 3,60 m
- Forward deck: 30,00 %, 11,80 ft / 3,60 m, 10,82 ft / 3,30 m
- Aft deck: 25,00 %, 10,82 ft / 3,30 m, 10,82 ft / 3,30 m
- Quarter deck: 25,00 %, 10,82 ft / 3,30 m, 10,82 ft / 3,30 m
- Average freeboard: 11,35 ft / 3,46 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 166,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101,8 %
Waterplane Area: 13 059 Square feet or 1 213 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 351 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,02
- Longitudinal: 0,99
- Overall: 1,00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
16t for 4TT x 18'' +4 reloads
18t for climat control
60t for 60 minen
1909 refit
10t for Marconi
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:26:31 PM
Ok,
More than "OK", wow! The MGB is exactly right, the TBs look exactly like a 1900 should, and the Flagship has more armor and exactly the speed I was hoping for.
Seriously, for a Cruiser-killer it looks practically indestructible.
Great job, can't wait for the chance to repay the all favors!
A possible capital ship, a la Von der Tann
AC3, Byzantine Empire AC3 laid down 1904
Displacement:
14 860 t light; 15 512 t standard; 16 690 t normal; 17 633 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(574,00 ft / 574,00 ft) x 76,00 ft x (22,10 / 23,13 ft)
(174,96 m / 174,96 m) x 23,16 m x (6,74 / 7,05 m)
Armament:
4 - 10,00" / 254 mm 45,0 cal guns - 504,26lbs / 228,73kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 10,00" / 254 mm 45,0 cal guns - 504,26lbs / 228,73kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
8 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,93lbs / 49,41kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1904 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 4,00" / 102 mm 45,0 cal guns - 32,28lbs / 14,64kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 70,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5 164 lbs / 2 342 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7,88" / 200 mm 436,00 ft / 132,89 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 138,00 ft / 42,06 m 5,00 ft / 1,52 m
Upper: 3,55" / 90 mm 436,00 ft / 132,89 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m
Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,45" / 240 mm 2,97" / 75 mm 7,88" / 200 mm
2nd: 9,45" / 240 mm 2,97" / 75 mm 7,88" / 200 mm
3rd: 1,97" / 50 mm 1,97" / 50 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
4th: 0,80" / 20 mm - -
5th: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1,77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1,20" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1,20" / 30 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 9,45" / 240 mm, Aft 7,88" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48 000 shp / 35 808 Kw = 25,04 kts
Range 5 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 121 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
733 - 954
Cost:
£1,616 million / $6,465 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 091 tons, 6,5 %
- Guns: 1 091 tons, 6,5 %
Armour: 3 813 tons, 22,8 %
- Belts: 1 826 tons, 10,9 %
- Armament: 751 tons, 4,5 %
- Armour Deck: 993 tons, 5,9 %
- Conning Towers: 244 tons, 1,5 %
Machinery: 4 752 tons, 28,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 977 tons, 29,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 830 tons, 11,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 227 tons, 1,4 %
- Hull below water: 12 tons
- Hull above water: 80 tons
- Above deck: 135 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12 509 lbs / 5 674 Kg = 25,0 x 10,0 " / 254 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
Metacentric height 4,9 ft / 1,5 m
Roll period: 14,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,606 / 0,612
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 18,00 ft / 5,49 m, 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
- Forward deck: 33,00 %, 16,00 ft / 4,88 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Aft deck: 31,00 %, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Quarter deck: 16,00 %, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Average freeboard: 15,53 ft / 4,73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127,2 %
Waterplane Area: 32 085 Square feet or 2 981 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 620 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,05
- Overall: 1,00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc weight:
12t => 3 TT x 450 with 3 reloads
80t => 40t for extra pump installation & 40t for extra air ventilation
135t => 125t for fire control & 10t for short Marconi
Quote from: snip on August 08, 2020, 04:00:02 PM
With some slight tweeks as requested.
...
Thanks... but I squint and I squint, and I can't see the TTs for that. That goes for most sheets, I can't tell if the TBs I just accepted have 4 or 5 TTs.
THat's a little annoying because Torpedoes are a major item for this class.
What does that one have, and where do I look?
Quote from: Jefgte on August 08, 2020, 04:16:44 PM
"1897" sheet in KK Plan ;)
SC2, Byzantine Empire SC2 laid down 1899
I think I could use one of those, but not the BB.
It is coming hot & heavy today, but I need to break. I'll be back in a couple of hours.
Thanks Jefgte !
So that's why I built that as a spreadsheet.
You can plug Jefgte's offerings in and see how the numbers work, just as you want.
He's got very nice AC designs. That VDT layout is a contender if you want to save a little tonnage.
Alternately, you could drop my version and the Norse ship, and see how many of Jefgte's you can fit in.
Your nation :)
The answer is...the # of TTs should be listed at the very bottom of the write up.
There is a springsharp tab for them, but it does not have the right tonnage.
So we set aside 'miscellaneous weight' and make notes at the bottom.
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 08, 2020, 04:29:31 PM
Quote from: snip on August 08, 2020, 04:00:02 PM
With some slight tweeks as requested.
...
Thanks... but I squint and I squint, and I can't see the TTs for that. That goes for most sheets, I can't tell if the TBs I just accepted have 4 or 5 TTs.
THat's a little annoying because Torpedoes are a major item for this class.
What does that one have, and where do I look?
Ya, its under the Misc weight alocation. Apparently I didnt add that to this springsharp file. Should be 12x530mm tubes in 4 tripple launchers (two per side) ala Clemsons. Add some weight for FC and thats about all the allocation can suport.
EDIT: Modified from the Roman F-Class
Quote
--On Deck (40t)
----36t 12x530mm Torpedoes [Two triple tube mounts per side]
----3t Fire Control
----1t Reserve
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 08, 2020, 04:31:10 PM
SC2, Byzantine Empire SC2 laid down 1899
I think I could use one of those, but not the BB.
It is coming hot & heavy today, but I need to break. I'll be back in a couple of hours.
[/quote]
If you download the spreadsheet, the "cost" column simply multiplies #suggested by tonnage.
The "Tonnage remaining" simply deducts all the numbers in the "Cost" column from the budget.
So you can change the #suggested up and down to try different combos.
You can also add ships that folks post in the next lines down and see how they fit into the Fleet "Mix"
So you can customize to your desire.
I'm not going to pro-actively offer new designs, because I don't want to overwhelm Anchor with too much stuff and I'm not yet clear on what his design priorities are.
However, if he sees a Union design he'd like to request tweaks for, I am totally cool to do that.
Or request a new design based on the various guns listed in my naval artillery thread.
Same. I've offered off line help on designing new classes for his new production, and suggesting some things along those lines.
Okay, I appreciate all the help, but I am starting to hit a wall here, I'll be back tomorrow .... or after I have a look at this spreadsheet.
Its all starting to run together.....
Ok, so you indicated the Norse Monitor might be a bit more than you were looking for.
So I modified a Parthian gunboat design I had.
The Norse was 2,996 tons, this is 3000, so same budget 'cost'.
This has 180mm guns fore and aft for a fair amount of HE power.
Superimposed over the aft gun is a shielded 118mm Howitzer for arcing shots.
The main belt is +1 /-1 of facehardened armor along the waterline, while a 65mm belt carries to freeboard, rendering the ship fully armored.
at 3.9m, the draft is shallow for inshore work. Torpedo nets are fitted so it can sit offshore and conduct bombardment safely.
The ship is very beamy, which makes it a steady platform. It also gives it the amidships deckspace to stack ships' boats.
These can be motor launches for marines, or MTBs. There is room for both Marines, and large numbers of torpedoes or mines.
Ethiopian export, Parthian Coastal Gunboat laid down 1903
Displacement:
2,991 t light; 3,128 t standard; 3,444 t normal; 3,697 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(294.98 ft / 291.99 ft) x 54.13 ft x (12.80 / 13.56 ft)
(89.91 m / 89.00 m) x 16.50 m x (3.90 / 4.13 m)
Armament:
2 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 - 4.65" / 118 mm 20.0 cal gun - 50.71lbs / 23.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1899 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
4 - 0.30" / 7.5 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 404 lbs / 183 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 189.80 ft / 57.85 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 102.17 ft / 31.14 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Upper: 2.56" / 65 mm 189.80 ft / 57.85 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,163 ihp / 3,105 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 4,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 570 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
224 - 292
Cost:
£0.226 million / $0.902 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 97 tons, 2.8 %
- Guns: 97 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 682 tons, 19.8 %
- Belts: 397 tons, 11.5 %
- Armament: 29 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 238 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 615 tons, 17.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 955 tons, 27.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 453 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 642 tons, 18.6 %
- Hull below water: 190 tons
- Hull void weights: 25 tons
- Hull above water: 132 tons
- On freeboard deck: 255 tons
- Above deck: 40 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,639 lbs / 2,558 Kg = 31.7 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.58
Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.57
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.596 / 0.604
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -1.50 ft / -0.46 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
- Average freeboard: 11.22 ft / 3.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.3 %
Waterplane Area: 11,518 Square feet or 1,070 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 327 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.60
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Misc weight
Void
25t - Construction Reserve
Above deck
25 - LR radio
10 - FC
On Deck Amidships
240 - provisions for 2 x 60t TB / MTB / MGB (will fit 4x MTB-B)
Above Water
12 - Tender services for 120tons TB/MTB/MGB
100t - Marines
20t - brig
two mine rails exit through hatches above the stern here.
Below Water
90t - Torpedo nets.
100t - Mine/Torpedo Storage Space, chilled, with cargo lift to deck.
Ok,
So this is a DRAFT turn sheet for 1913.0.
I broke Ethiopia into 3 regions.
The Northern Kush (Sudan)
The Southern Adal - after the old Sultanate of Adal,
and the core Abyssinia.
The tech investments under research as as requested.
Since it's 1913, it's pricey to start researching 1914 AC, but you can.
On the Naval construction , I lay down the next 12 DDs, and an additional 12 MTB-Bs.
Since you discussed building another CA and 2 CLs, I put aside tonnage for that.
Above, it lists the results of the prior building.
For 1907-1912, you wanted the 1911 DDs and 1910 MTB-Bs, I tried to figure out how many you could have fit in the drydocks. So..24 DDs, 136 MTB-Bs.
On the Non-Naval is your Army/Airforce/Forts.
For now I'm suggesting build 2 Army, 1 Air, 1 Deployment and 1 fort/ turn.
Then I went and invested the surplus at the max of $5/turn in the two provinces you had in 1913.0. The 4 new ones will not be available until 1914.
Just in case you are looking for a cheaper armored cruiser, basically a San Giorgio with two less secondary turrets (but the secondaries capable of cross deck fire) kind of a pre-dred Von der Tann.
Pisa the Hutt class, Ethiopian Armored Cruiser laid down 1908
Displacement:
9,417 t light; 9,887 t standard; 10,350 t normal; 10,720 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(460.00 ft / 460.00 ft) x 70.00 ft x (22.50 / 23.10 ft)
(140.21 m / 140.21 m) x 21.34 m x (6.86 / 7.04 m)
Armament:
4 - 10.00" / 254 mm 45.0 cal guns - 504.26lbs / 228.73kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 7.00" / 178 mm 45.0 cal guns - 172.96lbs / 78.45kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
14 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 32.27lbs / 14.64kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1908 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
Weight of broadside 3,161 lbs / 1,434 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm
Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 37,372 shp / 27,879 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 833 tons
Complement:
512 - 666
Cost:
£0.869 million / $3.477 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 685 tons, 6.6 %
- Guns: 685 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 3,317 tons, 32.0 %
- Belts: 1,534 tons, 14.8 %
- Armament: 746 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 894 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Towers: 143 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 1,887 tons, 18.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,333 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 933 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 195 tons, 1.9 %
- Hull below water: 30 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 115 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,905 lbs / 5,400 Kg = 23.8 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.504
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.36 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.7 %
Waterplane Area: 21,454 Square feet or 1,993 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 582 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
35t for Long and short-ranged wireless and flagship accomodations
80t for 1905 Fire Control
50t for spare
30t for 6 x 18" torpedo tubes plus reloads
Quote from: snip on August 08, 2020, 04:00:02 PM
With some slight tweeks as requested.
Thanks Snip, I owe you one.
That will be the standard for the 20 x DDs, further mods will be for improved sea-keeping and range, but that's for the future.
CHANGE -
That type, and the 500t DDs, the MGBs, the Elena BC, and the TBs are all approved.
I still want to go over CL and CA designs, just what is on this page is enough to keep me busy for a whle.
Quote from: Desertfox on August 09, 2020, 02:52:01 AM
Just in case you are looking for a cheaper armored cruiser, basically a San Giorgio with two less secondary turrets (but the secondaries capable of cross deck fire) kind of a pre-dred Von der Tann.
Pisa the Hutt class, Ethiopian Armored Cruiser laid down 1908
Displacement:
9,417 t light; 9,887 t standard; 10,350 t normal; 10,720 t full load
.....
35t for Long and short-ranged wireless and flagship accomodations
80t for 1905 Fire Control
50t for spare
30t for 6 x 18" torpedo tubes plus reloads
That looks very good, a find companion to the BC, but I think I have better fire control.... I'll ask Kaiser about that.
Are the turrets super-firing?
Thanks!
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 11:53:16 PM
Ok,
So this is a DRAFT turn sheet for 1913.0.
I broke Ethiopia into 3 regions.
The Northern Kush (Sudan)
The Southern Adal - after the old Sultanate of Adal,
and the core Abyssinia.
All good
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 11:53:16 PMQuote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 11:53:16 PMThe tech investments under research as as requested.
Since it's 1913, it's pricey to start researching 1914 AC, but you can.
AC.... Armored Cars?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 11:53:16 PMOn the Naval construction , I lay down the next 12 DDs, and an additional 12 MTB-Bs.
Since you discussed building another CA and 2 CLs, I put aside tonnage for that.
This is embarrassing....
First, see below,
And it occurs to me that it takes years to build a Dreadnought, and that if I want a pair of ships that can make a stand against a real enemy I'd better get started on something like those South Carolinas that have already been suggested to me.
So.... my bad.
Too late to set that up?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 11:53:16 PMAbove, it lists the results of the prior building.
For 1907-1912, you wanted the 1911 DDs and 1910 MTB-Bs, I tried to figure out how many you could have fit in the drydocks. So..24 DDs, 136 MTB-Bs.
Wow, that's great! Fantastic, even, it looks as if I won't be needing more of those any time soon.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 11:53:16 PMOn the Non-Naval is your Army/Airforce/Forts.
For now I'm suggesting build 2 Army, 1 Air, 1 Deployment and 1 fort/ turn.
Then I went and invested the surplus at the max of $5/turn in the two provinces you had in 1913.0. The 4 new ones will not be available until 1914.
Here is where I have a very different idea; I already have 30 fort points and only 5 places to distribute them (4 home ports and one colony) and a max. of 6 to spend at each place, if I am right about that... so I think that will be a Deployment point instead.
ALSO - The only monitor with 12" guns for that year that I could find were the USA Tonopah types, and one look at them proves they are barely sea-worthy.
Dreadful things, and their fire-control is sure to be garbage, so I would be very happy to accept the Norse types with 180mm guns.
I'm not over-loading
you yet, am I?
QuoteThat looks very good, a find companion to the BC, but I think I have better fire control.... I'll ask Kaiser about that.
Are the turrets super-firing?
Thanks!
They are en echelon like Von Der Tan, kind of like in this picture.
I can switch to superfiring if you'd like. Any other changes you want? What guns are you going to be using?
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 09, 2020, 03:25:00 PM
Here is where I have a very different idea; I already have 30 fort points and only 5 places to distribute them (4 home ports and one colony) and a max. of 6 to spend at each place, if I am right about that... so I think that will be a Deployment point instead.
ALSO - The only monitor with 12" guns for that year that I could find were the USA Tonopah types, and one look at them proves they are barely sea-worthy.
Dreadful things, and their fire-control is sure to be garbage, so I would be very happy to accept the Norse types with 180mm guns.
I'm not over-loading you yet, am I?
Nope not overloaded, thanks for asking.
I will likely miss things.
Fortifications are assigned on a regional level, not a location-specific level. Since your forts existed before you picked up colonies, they can only be assigned the 3 home regions.
On the sample turn I provided, I have them divided up land/coast and by region on the "non-naval" tab.
Since it's your nation, you're free to move them where you want pre-start.
The 180mm + 118HOW would be a Parthian export designed & built for Ethiopia. Easy to slot in.
The Fire Control you currently have is 1905.
I would strongly suggest you research the next fire control as a priority instead of signals int.
I would also strongly suggest waiting on 1914 aircraft until 1914...otherwise it costs more and you only save 1 year.
Quote from: Jefgte on August 08, 2020, 04:16:44 PM
"1897" sheet in KK Plan ;)
SC2, Byzantine Empire SC2 laid down 1899
Displacement:
3 950 t light; 4 093 t standard; 4 439 t normal; 4 716 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(410,00 ft / 410,00 ft) x 45,00 ft x (14,91 / 15,65 ft)
(124,97 m / 124,97 m) x 13,72 m x (4,54 / 4,77 m)
Armament:
2 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,93lbs / 49,41kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,93lbs / 49,41kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 4,00" / 102 mm 45,0 cal guns - 32,28lbs / 14,64kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 80,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 783 lbs / 355 kg
........................................................................................
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 600 ihp / 10 146 Kw = 21,92 kts
Range 4 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 623 tons (90% coal)
...
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
16t for 4TT x 18'' +4 reloads
18t for climat control
60t for 60 minen
1909 refit
10t for Marconi
This is an interesting design.
I need 3 mine-laying cruisers and this would seem perfect for that, but I have to make room for more mines. The only easy thing to remove would be the TTs, and that only gets me 16 more mines.
Can I remove 20% of the Bunkerage and get 124 mines? That would get me an even figure of 200 mines and reduce range to 3,200 miles.
Quote from: Desertfox on August 09, 2020, 03:41:45 PM
QuoteThat looks very good, a find companion to the BC, but I think I have better fire control.... I'll ask Kaiser about that.
Are the turrets super-firing?
Thanks!
They are en echelon like Von Der Tan, kind of like in this picture.
I can switch to superfiring if you'd like. Any other changes you want? What guns are you going to be using?
That looks amazing.... you know, I think I should save something like that for my Building project that I need to get into soon, instead of my current fleet.
That's a hell of a lot more impressive than a rip-off of the South Carolinas.... but yes, we have yet to nail-down the guns I will have ready for it someday.
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 09, 2020, 04:06:05 PM
This is an interesting design.
I need 3 mine-laying cruisers and this would seem perfect for that, but I have to make room for more mines. The only easy thing to remove would be the TTs, and that only gets me 16 more mines.
Can I remove 20% of the Bunkerage and get 124 mines? That would get me an even figure of 200 mines and reduce range to 3,200 miles.
So on your "Ethiopian Ships", in the 1898-1903 Tab you can put these in and see what changes you need to make room for them in your 'budget'.
Right now, that tab has 2 Roman and 2 Parthian cruisers. The Romans carry 30mines, the Parthian 160.
You can remove some/all of those and put these instead.
Under the <= 1897 tab there are 3 Byzantine cruisers with 40mines each.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 09, 2020, 04:01:34 PM
Fortifications are assigned on a regional level, not a location-specific level. Since your forts existed before you picked up colonies, they can only be assigned the 3 home regions.
On the sample turn I provided, I have them divided up land/coast and by region on the "non-naval" tab.
Since it's your nation, you're free to move them where you want pre-start.
The 180mm + 118HOW would be a Parthian export designed & built for Ethiopia. Easy to slot in.
The Fire Control you currently have is 1905.
I would strongly suggest you research the next fire control as a priority instead of signals int.
I would also strongly suggest waiting on 1914 aircraft until 1914...otherwise it costs more and you only save 1 year.
Yes and Yes
All I need today is a link to this Sample. I am working on a TO&E for what I have so far so that I can visualize what I have .... and make better choices about what comes next.
So that I can get a handle on this, can I assume that the 3 areas are as follows-
North; the Red Sea
Central; Djibouti and its environs
South; Berbera, the Horn, and the Colony (Lumbo)
I will go with that, and post what I come up with in a couple of hours.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 09, 2020, 04:18:20 PM
So on your "Ethiopian Ships", in the 1898-1903 Tab you can put these in and see what changes you need to make room for them in your 'budget'.
Right now, that tab has 2 Roman and 2 Parthian cruisers. The Romans carry 30mines, the Parthian 160.
You can remove some/all of those and put these instead.
Under the <= 1897 tab there are 3 Byzantine cruisers with 40mines each.
Oh, shit.
Hang on, I will have that speculative OOB in a little while, and we can add this in there.
I (Zwiazek Wilno) have a 4,700 t coal-fired monitor (Wasserkuppe class) with a twin 11"/45 cal turret, 4m draft, great seakeeping, though only 10 knots speed.
Quote...though only 10 knots speed
Very interesting for MTBA ;D
Quote from: Jefgte on August 09, 2020, 04:52:23 PM
Quote...though only 10 knots speed
Very interesting for MTBA ;D
That's why the next monitor got a full secondary battery, torpedo bulkhead, and more speed. Well, it's less slow, anyway.
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 09, 2020, 04:27:45 PM
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 09, 2020, 04:01:34 PM
Fortifications are assigned on a regional level, not a location-specific level. Since your forts existed before you picked up colonies, they can only be assigned the 3 home regions.
On the sample turn I provided, I have them divided up land/coast and by region on the "non-naval" tab.
Since it's your nation, you're free to move them where you want pre-start.
The 180mm + 118HOW would be a Parthian export designed & built for Ethiopia. Easy to slot in.
The Fire Control you currently have is 1905.
I would strongly suggest you research the next fire control as a priority instead of signals int.
I would also strongly suggest waiting on 1914 aircraft until 1914...otherwise it costs more and you only save 1 year.
Yes and Yes
All I need today is a link to this Sample. I am working on a TO&E for what I have so far so that I can visualize what I have .... and make better choices about what comes next.
So that I can get a handle on this, can I assume that the 3 areas are as follows-
North; the Red Sea
Central; Djibouti and its environs
South; Berbera, the Horn, and the Colony (Lumbo)
I will go with that, and post what I come up with in a couple of hours.
The
draft turnsheet I already posted, you must have missed it with everyone else posting stuff up too.
Darn it, I felt having a turn sheet would be useful for you to see how this all fits together.
Here it is again.
I called the regions Kush (Sudan), Abyssinia and Adal (a Sultanate that held the southern part of Ethiopia).
You can call them whatever you wish, or add more- up to 7.
Right now there's no map showing the regions, it's basically for illustration purposes.
You can have 3-5 roughly equal sized.
Edit : Included another copy of the ships one too.
First, I will try to load a map and see if that works -
That's the basic arrangement.
The Homeland regions are supposed to be roughly the same size.
There's 32, and 3-5 regions, so roughly 11, 8 or 6.
Kush was north and a little inland : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush)
Abbysinia was the Middle and coast , you might want to call it Aksum. But it's where the Empire started and expanded from : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum)
Adal was Djiobuiti to Berbera and inland : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adal_Sultanate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adal_Sultanate)
Showa was the one prior to it.
They are just suggestions, you can go with what you choose.
Hey, it worked!
Okay, now that I have that....
I got the one about the Drydocks, but this is the first I have seen the other spreadsheet and it looks like a doozy. I see that my Aux. Mercahnt tonnage is only 7,000.... won't be making much money off that!
SECTORS-
I am trying to make something that is rational for Naval purposes and suits my needs. I actually built my fleet around this idea in my mind before we started.
STARTING OOB
North; this is a defensive force built to take advantage of the many islands and short distances in the area.
KUSH —
11 x 500-ton DDs
44 x TBs
72 x MTBs
4 x MGB (Nile River)
1 x Monitor
2 x Mine-Layers
5 x Mine-Sweepers
CENTER-
This is where all the heavies will be based, and where they are made, too. From this location they should be able to react to any threats to either of the other Home sectors, and they can't be attacked until a threat enters one of the other sectors.
ABBASYNIA--
( All heavies, Cruisers and 2/3rds of all support ships....?)
15 x 1,000-ton DDs
20 x MTBs
6 x MGBs (4 standing by for inland deployment)
1 x Monitor
1 x Mine-Layer
5 x Mine-sweepers
South/EAST.
The lack of good anchorages really hurts us here, but the only missions are advanced warning, anti-piracy and to maintain contact with the Colony
ADAL--
(CLs/ACs... at least 2 of them)
1/3rd of Support ships
6 x 1,000t. DDs
36 x MTB
5 x Mine-sweepers
JUMBA--
1 x 1,000-ton DD
1 x 500-ton DD
4 x TBs
6 x MTB
2 x MGB
1 x Monitor
Not much, but it's not much of a Colony.
So, does the method behind my madness seem reasonable?
The Category Tonnage totals are modified to reflect the "effective" i.e. maintenance cost. Foreign built costs more, Aux less.
The purpose of the Aux merch tonnage is for your fleet supply vessels. their fleet support tonnage allows you to keep your ships near full strength for extended periods with no decent base.
Aux tonnage did in at least one proposed version generate income, but not in this simplified version.
Here is a request for a Heavy Cruiser design for you Gentlemen to ponder, if you like.
I am still looking for a CA to fill my ranks out, a Pair of them in fact.
This is part of my 1910 build and I can have super-firing (limited) twin turrets, but if you need barbets to squeeze an extra pair of big guns in that could be acceptable.
Specs-
A light displacement not to exceed 10,100 tons. (well, up to 10% over if you must)
A speed no less than 25 knots.
Armor and range will have to be balanced.... I need a ship that can pack-up the flagship but also be a Corsair that can range far out into the Indian Ocean if required.
adequate room and good sea-keeping are desired, so instead of heavier guns, let's keep to these-
7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 150-175 per gun
Breech loading guns, 1904 Model
3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.42lbs / 10.17kg shells, 200 per gun (?)
Quick firing guns, 1906 Model
(as an alternate these guns are on the new DDs. I don't see all that much difference, but.... 3.94" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.77lbs / 13.96kg shells, 175 per gun
Quick firing guns 1906 Model
Same types of guns as are found in the flagship, so I assume these are allowed to me.
A healthy number of torpedos is also desired, 8-12 mounts plus reloads if possible.
Other than that, its up to you. so good luck! If it looks good enough, I may even start making more of my own like 'em.
Pocket VdT, Ethiopian Cruiser laid down 1910
Displacement:
6,163 t light; 6,444 t standard; 6,765 t normal; 7,021 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(410.00 ft / 410.00 ft) x 55.00 ft x (21.00 / 21.60 ft)
(124.97 m / 124.97 m) x 16.76 m x (6.40 / 6.58 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
14 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.43lbs / 10.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,750 lbs / 794 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 220.00 ft / 67.06 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 220.00 ft / 67.06 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.00" / 178 mm, Aft 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 29,598 shp / 22,080 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 577 tons
Complement:
372 - 484
Cost:
£0.537 million / $2.149 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 381 tons, 5.6 %
- Guns: 381 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 2,091 tons, 30.9 %
- Belts: 1,024 tons, 15.1 %
- Armament: 483 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 508 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Towers: 77 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,223 tons, 18.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,213 tons, 32.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 602 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 255 tons, 3.8 %
- Hull above water: 180 tons
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 55 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,610 lbs / 3,905 Kg = 48.4 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.1 %
Waterplane Area: 15,025 Square feet or 1,396 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 487 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 2.06
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
25t for Long wireless
30t for 1905 Fire Control
20t for 8 x 18" torpedo tubes plus reloads
180t for 180 mines
And our first contestant is....
Oh, wow, a mini-Scharnhorst! At that weight, I could have 3 instead of 2. That would solve a lot of issues, I might even be able to stop worrying about ACs and so on.
The problem is, I don't think the range would allow it to go Commerce Raiding, I should re-state that in the OP.... or is that even allowed in this game?
Still open, but this sure gives me a lot to think about. Good job!
Quote from: Desertfox on August 10, 2020, 08:10:26 PM
Pocket VdT, Ethiopian Cruiser laid down 1910
Displacement:
6,163 t light; 6,444 t standard; 6,765 t normal; 7,021 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(410.00 ft / 410.00 ft) x 55.00 ft x (21.00 / 21.60 ft)
(124.97 m / 124.97 m) x 16.76 m x (6.40 / 6.58 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
14 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.43lbs / 10.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,750 lbs / 794 kg
............ ............ ............ ...........................................
EDIT: Fix the all-oil firing problem, lost some of the mines.
With a bit more range:
Pocket VdT, Ethiopian Cruiser laid down 1910
Displacement:
6,235 t light; 6,523 t standard; 7,087 t normal; 7,539 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(410.00 ft / 410.00 ft) x 55.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.05 ft)
(124.97 m / 124.97 m) x 16.76 m x (6.71 / 7.03 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
14 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.43lbs / 10.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,750 lbs / 794 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.00" / 178 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30,472 shp / 22,732 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,016 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
386 - 502
Cost:
£0.561 million / $2.242 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 381 tons, 5.4 %
- Guns: 381 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 2,091 tons, 29.5 %
- Belts: 1,045 tons, 14.7 %
- Armament: 483 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 508 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,371 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,216 tons, 31.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 852 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 175 tons, 2.5 %
- Hull above water: 80 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 65 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,723 lbs / 3,957 Kg = 49.0 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.16 ft / 4.93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.6 %
Waterplane Area: 15,025 Square feet or 1,396 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 482 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.09
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
25t for Long wireless
40t for 1905 Fire Control
30t for 8 x 18" torpedo tubes plus reloads
80t for 180 mines
Going to need to be a 90/10 Coal/Oil mix based on what we have been asked to provide for other RFPs. Also, poor protected buoyancy reserves are jucy.
Fixed that issue, just edited my post above.
And like magic, he does it!
Nice work, unless I see something better by tomorrow night, I will be going with this.
Quantity has a quality all it's own...
Quote from: Desertfox on August 10, 2020, 08:53:11 PM
EDIT: Fix the all-oil firing problem, lost some of the mines.
With a bit more range:
Pocket VdT, Ethiopian Cruiser laid down 1910
Displacement:
6,235 t light; 6,523 t standard; 7,087 t normal; 7,539 t full load
....
Quote from: snip on August 10, 2020, 09:11:40 PM
Going to need to be a 90/10 Coal/Oil mix based on what we have been asked to provide for other RFPs. Also, poor protected buoyancy reserves are jucy.
What does that even mean?
Where is your design?
And if you want some heavier firepower instead:
Pizza the Hutt class, Ethiopian Armored Cruiser laid down 1910
Displacement:
9,226 t light; 9,690 t standard; 10,350 t normal; 10,878 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(460.00 ft / 460.00 ft) x 70.00 ft x (22.50 / 23.36 ft)
(140.21 m / 140.21 m) x 21.34 m x (6.86 / 7.12 m)
Armament:
4 - 10.04" / 255 mm 45.0 cal guns - 510.24lbs / 231.44kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
14 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.43lbs / 10.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
Weight of broadside 3,073 lbs / 1,394 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 220.00 ft / 67.06 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 80 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm
Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 37,372 shp / 27,879 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,189 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
512 - 666
Cost:
£0.832 million / $3.328 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 599 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 599 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 3,267 tons, 31.6 %
- Belts: 1,482 tons, 14.3 %
- Armament: 748 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 894 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Towers: 143 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 1,682 tons, 16.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,424 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,124 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 255 tons, 2.5 %
- Hull below water: 30 tons
- On freeboard deck: 140 tons
- Above deck: 85 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,910 lbs / 5,856 Kg = 25.5 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.506
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.36 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.7 %
Waterplane Area: 21,454 Square feet or 1,993 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 584 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t for Long-ranged wireless
60t for 1905 Fire Control
140t for spare
30t for 6 x 18" torpedo tubes plus reloads
So, two of one or three of the other....
Does this one have better underwater protection, or whatever Snip was talking about?
Everyone is advising me to get a couple of big, slower preDreads or something to make a stand with, but I don't see the logic in that. What good will one Battlewagon do me if the major powers can show up with a dozen? My preferred tactic would be to give ground until I can strike at night, and then use swarms of torpedo craft and some DDs to hold the enemy by the nose while my Cruisers and best DDs maneuver around the flanks to break his legs.
I came here to engage in Naval Battles, to play with Tactics ..... is that a part of the game, or not?
Turn-lengths of half a year make me wonder, I'd better spend a couple of days looking at the Rules before I say anything more.
Folks - note on mine tonnage - Design Guidelines specifies
QuoteMines: 1 t per mine, including associated laying and storage equipment.
Opinion :
Slow battlewagons are relatively cheap - speed is expensive and also takes long/large ships.
There the factor that most of the NPC-Player conversions are significantly far away from the original player's home fleets.
It is difficult for them to commit substantial resources without leaving the "home fleet" low on resources.
This is why the Malta treaty has such an effect. Of course that wasn't around during this build period.
But for most of the NPCs, a capital -sized slower ship has some value.
Naval War with the Berbers is not happening. It's extremely unlikely one of the other European powers would operate an offensive war in the Red Sea.
So only 2 real 'powers' have potential in 1907. One is my Parthia, which traditionally wants a Strong Ethiopia as a limiter on Byzantine. The other would
be Byzantine if they wanted control of both shores of the Red Sea.
Now frankly, Jefgte is really nice guy, and this game is designed for colonial conflict. So that is unlikely, but from an Ethiopian POV something to discourage.
So, Ethiopia shares the Red Sea with a major power, which has long been able to move his home fleet from the Med to the Red Sea fairly quickly and easily.
A slow and heavily armored Ethiopian PD is simply quickly faced by bigger/better armed Byzantine ships.
So in this case, I would think Ethiopia's 1907 vessels would be built to avoid being caught by Byzantine 1905-6 heavy warships.
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 11, 2020, 06:41:53 PM
I came here to engage in Naval Battles, to play with Tactics ..... is that a part of the game, or not?
Turn-lengths of half a year make me wonder, I'd better spend a couple of days looking at the Rules before I say anything more.
Generally folks here are story development with the possibility of battle.
Snip wanted a design where the colonies are valuable, and so we can have wars over them, more than "fight for survival" in homeland vs. homeland fights.
War does/is occurring. Both between two players and a player vs. NPC.
There are two variants of that.
A) Two or more players with a story to tell work out a storyline of a conflict. I'll review to see that the conflict falls within the available technology.
B) There is a conflict, and I wargame it out using a base of Seekrieg IV with modifications for our tech rules. I'll ask players for general orders/goals for their commanders. Which sometimes work very planned, and in a couple cases just have not gone as envisioned.
Torpedoes have been abberently successful in the game so far, in A by choice, in B by dice rolls.
So this is a great comparison of the "price" paid for speed.
Virtually the same tonnage as Foxy's 6250 ton 8x 180mm, 25knot ship.
Close in date, 1909 vs. 1910 isn't a huge difference..with 1910 engines about 200 tons more 'stuff' could be fitted.
Coincidentally, with 1910 engines, the belt could be 150 and so the slopes of the protective deck could be 180mm..
20m longer, and 2 knots faster.
Also 8x 180mm,
but instead of a narrow 181mm main belt and a 102mm upper belt, with an overly thick 51mm protective deck...
just a protective deck - albeit 150mm on the slopes and 30mm on the crown.
In a slugging match between the two, this one looses. But she's faster, longer ranged, and better seakeeping.
That's the fun of ship design - making design trade offs :)
PC-6, Parthia Protected Cruiser Series V laid down 1909
Displacement:
5,992 t light; 6,263 t standard; 7,023 t normal; 7,630 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492.13 ft / 475.72 ft) x 52.49 ft x (19.69 / 20.96 ft)
(150.00 m / 145.00 m) x 16.00 m x (6.00 / 6.39 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 179.46lbs / 81.40kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1909 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,612 lbs / 731 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 342.52 ft / 104.40 m 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
Note : The belt represents the thicker slopes of the protective deck, for 150mm total.
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 2.56" / 65 mm 2.56" / 65 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 37,868 shp / 28,250 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 7,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,366 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
383 - 498
Cost:
£0.616 million / $2.464 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 410 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 410 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 1,386 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 810 tons, 11.5 %
- Armament: 189 tons, 2.7 %
- Armour Deck: 358 tons, 5.1 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,875 tons, 26.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,993 tons, 28.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,031 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 328 tons, 4.7 %
- Hull void weights: 48 tons
- Hull above water: 160 tons
- On freeboard deck: 54 tons
- Above deck: 66 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,159 lbs / 2,794 Kg = 34.6 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.510
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Forward deck: 40.00 %, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Aft deck: 32.00 %, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
- Average freeboard: 16.86 ft / 5.14 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.5 %
Waterplane Area: 16,638 Square feet or 1,546 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 400 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Intended as a Protected Cruiser for the fleet
The vessel is fitted with a protective deck, 90mm on the slopes and 25mm on the flat
41t - 1905 Fire Control
25t - Long Range Radio
30t - 0.5% increased ventilation
24t - Torpedoes 4 xT2 (8)
160t - minedeck on 2nd deck aft, 2 mine rails w/80 mines ea. drop through ports in stern
22t - construction reserve remaining
+6.25 Forecastle deck
+3.75 Weather Deck
+1.25 2nd deck, top of main belt, protective deck
-1.25 Bottom of main belt, 1st deck
-4.75 Engineering Deck
-5.26 : Bilges, double bottom
-6.0 : Keel
Advice is just that, advice. Everyone has a different way of doing things, but its up to you to decide which direction you want to go. Slow pre-dreads are useful for certain people and places, but not so for others. If you don't find them useful, you don't have to go that way.
I will just point out that swarms of torpedo craft have already proven quite effective, and people are already looking into countermeasures, so its something to keep in mind going forward. And as the one that took the brunt of them, my approach is significantly different that everyone else.
Well, it is good to know that I didn't make the wrong choice, just a different one. I would have had to shelve the CAs to get one Radetzky or a Vermont.
I will probably get two of one and one of the other kind, but I will leave this open for one more day.
Then I have to go back and see if I have any tonnage left for CLs....
QuoteNaval War with the Berbers is not happening. It's extremely unlikely one of the other European powers would operate an offensive war in the Red Sea.
So only 2 real 'powers' have potential in 1907. One is my Parthia, which traditionally wants a Strong Ethiopia as a limiter on Byzantine. The other would
be Byzantine if they wanted control of both shores of the Red Sea.
Byzantium is in charge of free passage through the Suez Canal for members of the Malta Treaty.
The Ethiopian Pirates of the Red Sea were eliminated by Byzantium in 1910-1911. The area is now secure.
Byzantium will further increase, if necessary, its means of enforcing this free passage.
QuoteNow frankly, Jefgte is really nice guy, ...
:) ;) :D ;D
QuoteSo, Ethiopia shares the Red Sea with a major power, which has long been able to move his home fleet from the Med to the Red Sea fairly quickly and easily.
A slow and heavily armored Ethiopian PD is simply quickly faced by bigger/better armed Byzantine ships.
So in this case, I would think Ethiopia's 1907 vessels would be built to avoid being caught by Byzantine 1905-6 heavy warships.
Exellent Analysis :)
I think TorpedoBoats / Destroyers would be most effective in this narrow sea.Now, if Ethiopia wants to acquire exterior colonies, Ethiopia could consider limiting the number of "Red Sea torpedo boats" and increasing the number of this AC - CL & transports...
Quote from: Jefgte on August 12, 2020, 07:37:01 AMByzantium is in charge of free passage through the Suez Canal for members of the Malta Treaty.
The Ethiopian Pirates of the Red Sea were eliminated by Byzantium in 1910-1911. The area is now secure.
Byzantium will further increase, if necessary, its means of enforcing this free passage.
The current Emperor was not in office at that time.
The conclusion of the Piracy affair is something you may not be aware of. All Pirate survivors that managed to escape you and make it back to our territory and subjected to the "twice punished" regimen. After a public flogging (for losing to you) they were forced to make a choice (for persisting with Piracy in the age of steam) and all those that chose to do so were allowed to join the Navy.... as
Enlisted men. :-X The alternative to that choice is not known, but none of those that refused enlistment have been seen or heard from since.
The matter of free-pasage in peacetime is considered closed, and all ports are opened to free trade with any nation on Earth at this time.
Quote from: Jefgte on August 12, 2020, 07:37:01 AMNow, if Ethiopia wants to acquire exterior colonies, Ethiopia could consider limiting the number of "Red Sea torpedo boats" and increasing the number of this AC - CL & transports...
Excuse you?
Ethiopia has enough to do one the Home Front, but that does make me wonder if we can do a little better than that one lame little colony that is so far away. I was considering putting it up for sale, but now....
The very idea that an outside power is telling us that our ability to take and maintain colonies is dependent how we distribute our ships in our own home waters is , shall we say.... controversial?
And before the usual stuff begins, feel free to have a look at the old Pirate strongholds in the Dhalek* Islands, and you will see that they are under new ownership.
*yes, that is what they are actually called, I guess the BBC had a good Atlas when they were looking for crazy names.
That's not what Jef meant, I'm sure. He's noting, out of character, that larger warships are more capable of projecting force out to overseas colonies than torpedo craft. He isn't giving in-character instructions.
Quote... Larger warships are more capable of projecting force out to overseas colonies than torpedo craft. He isn't giving in-character instructions..
In other words, that's what I meant.
Quote from: Jefgte on August 12, 2020, 03:26:08 PM
Quote... Larger warships are more capable of projecting force out to overseas colonies than torpedo craft. He isn't giving in-character instructions..
In other words, that%u2019s what I meant.
Aw darn, I'm sorry!
I thought we were already getting into the chatter among world-leaders part, Role-Playing. My bad.... but I do like to play the twerp making a brave stand.
And, it turns out that I totally fucked up my own fleet-making here.
I thought I had tonnage to play with up to 1910, but it turns out I was wrong. It was staring me in the face the whole time, but it never really registered. I had over 120,000 tons for 1900-1906, and only about 20,000 for the next 6 years. I guess everyone went on strike for 5 years.
Had that last category set for my best series of DDs, but that's out now. I
won't let your work go to waste, I will take one of each of these 1910 Cruisers (is there such a thing as "medium" cruisers? ;) ) and maybe go from there.
Result- one of the heavier-firepower version from Desertfox and the one from Kaiser Kirk with the long legs.
Looks like I have 37,000 tons of pre-1907 stuff to get with a max of 255mm guns for them. Meh, I'll figure it out. Time to take a look at the older submissions. Looks like a couple of Von Der Tann will fit the bill nicely.
Hey Jefgate, looks like you were right. Armed Transports and fewer DDs will probably be the order of the day. ::)
well.... that was a long night!
The new (provisional) OOB
<= 1897
5 auxiliaries for 150,000tons naval support (15k)
3 minelaying cruisers,.. (2146 x 3 = 6,438tons)
15 minesweepers... (15 x 250 = 3,730)
1898-1903
12 rail-transport gunboats....(49 x 12 = 588 tons)
48 345 ton torpedoboats - modified from the japanese design%u2026. (345t. x 48 = 16,560 tons)
3 Gunboat/monitors.... 4,000 x 3 = 12,000tons)
2 Bismarck CA,.. 2 x 15,783 = 31,566 tons
537t. unused
1904-1906
2 (mini) Von Der Tann %u2026. 29, 720
3 CLs... 12,000
24 x 500-ton DDs.... 12,000
- unused (waiting for a special order for a 1903 BA)
1907-1913
1 Pisa/Hut BC, 2 x Medium Cruisers = 21,210 tons (both from this page)
27 MTBs, 540 tons
A very satisfying recovery.
Okay.... baring any fresh disasters, I am ready to start learning how to play this game.
Whew!
Byzantine SC2 & AC3
You could made adjustments ;)
Quote from: Jefgte on August 13, 2020, 10:26:50 AM
Byzantine SC2 & AC3
You could made adjustments ;)
Thanks, but I had 4 screens going at once most of the night, I think I'm good with what I have! And even if they have flaws, that's fine, this navy is bound to have its share of glitches. I have to move on and dig into the rules.
.... once I get my OOBs and Stations cleared up, that is.
BTW - those docs can't be read by my mac, and there is no app in the store for them either.
Actually, I went with a different SC anyway, it fit the year betterEDIT --
Okay, I have the new OOB set for each location, and the winning types are located under ship classes and have a line that
looks like this if they were accepted and one that
looks like this if I had to turn them down.
Still waiting on that custom BA...... and, somehow I lost the Stats for the 500-ton DD that I now have 2 dozen of as my only DD now.
Kirk, were you the one that showed me that, with 3 x 90mm guns?
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 13, 2020, 03:00:02 PM
Still waiting on that custom BA...... and, somehow I lost the Stats for the 500-ton DD that I now have 2 dozen of as my only DD now. Kirk, were you the one that showed me that, with 3 x 90mm guns?
One of the ships proposed was a 1904 Parthian "Spear" class 500 ton DD with 3 x 90mm bearing forward through the use of
Omaha style superstructure casements, and a pair of german-style forward firing torpedos firing through the forecastle cheeks. Aft is a second set of torpedoes and a 90mm.
As a practical application thing, it's probably bow heavy and would pitch in deep ocean, but gamewise it's great for the Red Sea and still has respectable trial speed. So a good 1904 DD.
DD "Spear" 33-48
Spear, Parthia Destroyer laid down 1904
Displacement:
499 t light; 519 t standard; 601 t normal; 666 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(231.63 ft / 228.35 ft) x 22.15 ft x (9.51 / 10.23 ft)
(70.60 m / 69.60 m) x 6.75 m x (2.90 / 3.12 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 88 lbs / 40 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.98" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,866 shp / 7,360 Kw = 26.30 kts
Range 2,650nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 146 tons (93% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Trial Speed: 25.6+ 2.75 : 29kts
Complement:
59 - 78
Cost:
£0.069 million / $0.276 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.3 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 337 tons, 56.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 127 tons, 21.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 102 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 2.5 %
- Hull void weights: 3 tons
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
142 lbs / 64 Kg = 6.4 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.54
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 8.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.437 / 0.451
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 9.35 ft / 2.85 m
- Average freeboard: 9.56 ft / 2.91 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.2 %
Waterplane Area: 3,192 Square feet or 297 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 30 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 102 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.80
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
This Class of Destroyers are an effort to exploit the turbine technology for further speed. The first true Destroyers rather than enlarged ocean going torpedo boats, they are Larger, faster, and better armed. They sacrifice about 1/4knt of performance for slightly better seakeeping, allowing them to operate in the Persian Ocean.
Trial Speed is : 26.3kts + 2.75 : 29.05kts
These little ships rely on boilers burning coal boilers oil sprayed coal, there is sufficient fuel for a 10 day journey, with a 10% reserve. Of the 8 boilers, 2 are 100% coal, and 6 are oil-sprayed coal. They can manage 18.71 knts on the coal fired boilers alone.
The guns are arranged with A and Y, but with two casements in the superstructure (like the Omaha CLs) clearance forward, giving 3 guns bearing forward, and 3 on either beam. The guns are equipped with 6mm spray shields.
Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
8t - 4x 18" mm torpedoes. Two torpedoes fire forward from the "cheeks" like an E-boat, and two on a turntable in the rear.
2t - Extra ventilation
2t - 1905 fire control
3t - Void, construction reserve
Speed with the single 100% coal fire boiler is 18.65knts, allowing virtually all peacetime activity to be done using existing coaling facilities around the Persian ocean.
Trial Speed: 25.6+ 2.75 : 29kts
1907 refit : 2t
2t + 1905 fire control
I'll take it!
The only issue is the turbines, which I suspect makes it impossible for them to be locally built. Upkeep is going to be difficult, but at least the last piece has fallen into place.
Yup, that's it.
I have a small BA (pre-dread) that fills the last of the tonnage out nicely, so it's time to post them both in the Navy lists.
Tomorrow.... no, Saturday I will put copies of my turn sheet so that I can show my progress and mistakes as I work through it.
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 14, 2020, 02:32:02 AM
I'll take it!
The only issue is the turbines, which I suspect makes it impossible for them to be locally built. Upkeep is going to be difficult, but at least the last piece has fallen into place.
Yup, that's it.
I have a small BA (pre-dread) that fills the last of the tonnage out nicely, so it's time to post them both in the Navy lists.
Tomorrow.... no, Saturday I will put copies of my turn sheet so that I can show my progress and mistakes as I work through it.
The
Spear class turbines are not a problem for Ethiopia, which has that 1902 technology. It's >10% oil fire that you don't have, and that's not an issue with them. Which is why they appeared in the Chinese navy (where they actually performed quite well in the last war).
Congrats on the slog :)
My timing might suck, but i forgot something.
My new navy is supposed to have 15 Minesweepers, and I don't have a design for them.
The only hard & firm requirement is a Disp. of 250 tons.
If they are simple enough to have been built here (coal only) that would be great!
Other than that, I dunno, surprise me.... ?
available guns include 45mm, 90mm and 100mm. Speed can be anywhere from 10-20 knots. and good sea-keeping would be nice... but do Minesweepers even do anything when the weather gets rough?
Hell, I'll take anything, so have fun with it.
The Ethiopians could copy & home build Parthian designs.
The 1902 version seems to fit nicesly.
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7060.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7060.0.html)
1902 date
250t
90mm gun,
90/10 Coal fired
excellent seakeeping
double hulled
and I think you'll find most folks don't even have minesweepers back then. The Norse did- China used theirs.
Not sure about the Aztecs.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 16, 2020, 01:40:31 PM
The Ethiopians could copy & home build Parthian designs.
The 1902 version seems to fit nicesly.
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7060.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7060.0.html)
1902 date
250t
90mm gun,
90/10 Coal fired
excellent seakeeping
double hulled
and I think you'll find most folks don't even have minesweepers back then. The Norse did- China used theirs.
Not sure about the Aztecs.
I forget the date of my mine warfare ships right off. And mine are more multi role minesweeper, mine layer, offshore patrol vessel. I will probably be doing that as my future minesweeper as well. An opv for universal deployment with a heavy emphasis on minesweeping and possibly asw. Though the latter isn't important yet.
I thought I recalled seeing you have Minewarfare assets.
I remain unsure how practical it is to combine mine laying and sweeping, but that's not a field I've read much on.
I just don't recall seeing vessels kitted out that way, but that could be due to needing far more sweepers than layers.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 16, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
I thought I recalled seeing you have Minewarfare assets.
I remain unsure how practical it is to combine mine laying and sweeping, but that's not a field I've read much on.
I just don't recall seeing vessels kitted out that way, but that could be due to needing far more sweepers than layers.
I did it that way because it's a bit amateurish.
Honestly, laying offensive minefields with my MS-1 class would result in the loss of a lot of MS-1 class. They're too slow, and you'd need to send 4-10 of them to lay an offensive minefield in any strength. You really want a proper, relatively fast, minelayer with a relatively large capacity to do it properly. But in a closed sea like the Caribbean, having OPVs all over the place which can drop mines and then somewhat quickly return to a harbor to load back up and repeat.....it's a possibility.
And here it is. Completely inadequate for a lot of tasks, really more of an OPV that can do mine warfare......
MS-1, Aztec Minesweeper laid down 1906
Displacement:
561 t light; 580 t standard; 654 t normal; 713 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(153.52 ft / 147.64 ft) x 26.25 ft x (9.84 / 10.58 ft)
(46.79 m / 45.00 m) x 8.00 m x (3.00 / 3.22 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.94" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.78lbs / 13.96kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1906 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 raised mount - superfiring
2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.97lbs / 0.89kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1906 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 65 lbs / 30 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.26" / 32 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.26" / 32 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.26" / 32 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,941 shp / 1,448 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 134 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
64 - 84
Cost:
£0.042 million / $0.168 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12 tons, 1.8 %
- Guns: 12 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 62 tons, 9.5 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 54 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 137 tons, 21.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 168 tons, 25.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 93 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 181 tons, 27.7 %
- On freeboard deck: 181 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,029 lbs / 467 Kg = 33.7 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.609
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.15 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m, 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 10.42 ft / 3.18 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.1 %
Waterplane Area: 2,834 Square feet or 263 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 35 lbs/sq ft or 171 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 5.17
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
25t Minesweeping Equpment
156t Mines/Rails
I screwed up again, should have mentioned that I was trying to fill pre-1897 slots.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 16, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
I thought I recalled seeing you have Minewarfare assets.
I remain unsure how practical it is to combine mine laying and sweeping, but that's not a field I've read much on.
I just don't recall seeing vessels kitted out that way, but that could be due to needing far more sweepers than layers.
First off, I am hoping that geography has some effect on combat in this game. The south end of the Red Sea is suited to mine-warfare used defensively and the many little islands are great for TB operations... which is why the bulk of the older ones are there.
Our thinking is that since we know that mines can be so useful the other guys might know that too.
These are not just minesweepers, they can function as Patrol boats, Search & Rescue, Fishery protection and Revenue Cutters. They may even have started out that way. As such, I won't have to worry about them becoming obsolete any time soon. Mine sweeping is the one combat job such ships can do effectively, and I don't want to have to build more later.
However, that's interesting. Could they have mine-racks of their own? For more than just ten or so mines, I mean.
1. Geography does matter.
2. Diplomacy may be a factor, remember a huge chunk of trade comes through the Suez canal. How you choose to mine could effect the "European" players view of things as their merchants are damaged or sink. Historically where mines could be moored the sea was relatively shallow, like the red sea. If they weren't moored they could randomly damage shipping.
3. How you use them is up to you.
4. Functionally, it's a matter of assigning miscellaneous weight to the role.
I think I need to try to find some reading matter on early 20th century minesweeping to be able to answer why they didn't combine the laying and sweeping roles historically. Usually when something is obvious and they didn't do it...there was some reason...but not always.
I think the biggest reason was that minesweepers and minelayers tend to be very different sizes. Minesweepers are usually small, cheap, and more disposable with limited space for mines, while minelayers need a lot of space for mines and you don't want them near an active minefield. You can always put minesweeping gear on a minelayer and use it as such while empty but its more costly, conversely you can put mines on a minesweeper but it would only be a few. I can see a use for a small number of mines on minesweepers, where they can be used to maintain defensive minefields around a port, so you only need a handful of mines.
One of the reasons I don't mix the two, is that I can build minesweepers to merchant standards, while minelayers have to be built to military standards and are therefore much more expensive.
Quote from: Desertfox on August 16, 2020, 11:29:14 PM
I think the biggest reason was that minesweepers and minelayers tend to be very different sizes. Minesweepers are usually small, cheap, and more disposable with limited space for mines, while minelayers need a lot of space for mines and you don't want them near an active minefield. You can always put minesweeping gear on a minelayer and use it as such while empty but its more costly, conversely you can put mines on a minesweeper but it would only be a few. I can see a use for a small number of mines on minesweepers, where they can be used to maintain defensive minefields around a port, so you only need a handful of mines.
One of the reasons I don't mix the two, is that I can build minesweepers to merchant standards, while minelayers have to be built to military standards and are therefore much more expensive.
Very good points!
And having a rack of mines on a small ship that could easily hit a mine itself could be bad for morale', eh? :o
And on 2nd thought, I don't think I really need anyone to design a pre-1897 mine sweeper, especially if the function never comes up in practice.