An improvement on the Agano class, these ships drop a bit of range and the marine accommodations for the ability to self-deploy indefinitely...
Improved Agano class, Japan Cruiser laid down 1912
Displacement:
3,999 t light; 4,225 t standard; 4,872 t normal; 5,390 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(400.00 ft / 400.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (17.40 / 18.79 ft)
(121.92 m / 121.92 m) x 14.94 m x (5.30 / 5.73 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
8 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,537 lbs / 697 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,456 shp / 15,260 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 4,490nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,165 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
291 - 379
Cost:
£0.385 million / $1.541 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 308 tons, 6.3 %
- Guns: 308 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 808 tons, 16.6 %
- Belts: 286 tons, 5.9 %
- Armament: 164 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 358 tons, 7.3 %
Machinery: 888 tons, 18.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,475 tons, 30.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 873 tons, 17.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 520 tons, 10.7 %
- Hull below water: 400 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 70 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,699 lbs / 2,585 Kg = 22.3 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.512
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.24 ft / 4.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.1 %
Waterplane Area: 13,059 Square feet or 1,213 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 382 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.83
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
70t - FC + Long-range wireless
10t - 4 x 18" torpedo tubes
40t - 2 x extra boats
400t - Out-of-Port Resupply
Improvement on the Umikaze class, adding 1000nm range, and a much heavier armament.
Sakura, Japan Destroyer laid down 1912
Displacement:
710 t light; 742 t standard; 791 t normal; 830 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(303.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 30.00 ft x (7.50 / 7.75 ft)
(92.35 m / 91.44 m) x 9.14 m x (2.29 / 2.36 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 189 lbs / 86 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,446 shp / 13,015 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 2,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 88 tons
Complement:
73 - 96
Cost:
£0.091 million / $0.362 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 4.2 %
- Guns: 33 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 10 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 1.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 405 tons, 51.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 247 tons, 31.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 80 tons, 10.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 2.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 16 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
247 lbs / 112 Kg = 4.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.410 / 0.417
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 27.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 28.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 12.62 ft / 3.85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.6 %
Waterplane Area: 5,574 Square feet or 518 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 130 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
16t - 8 x 18" Torpedoes
Destroyer Leader version of the Mogamis, much lower range, but more speed and torpedoes.
Yahagi class, Japan Destroyer Leader laid down 1912
Displacement:
2,001 t light; 2,083 t standard; 2,177 t normal; 2,252 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(390.00 ft / 390.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (11.10 / 11.37 ft)
(118.87 m / 118.87 m) x 12.19 m x (3.38 / 3.46 m)
Armament:
5 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 315 lbs / 143 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 29,481 shp / 21,993 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 2,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 169 tons
Complement:
159 - 207
Cost:
£0.235 million / $0.939 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 55 tons, 2.5 %
- Guns: 55 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,070 tons, 49.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 799 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 176 tons, 8.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 3.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 40 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
990 lbs / 449 Kg = 15.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.445
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 33.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Aft deck: 22.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 14.05 ft / 4.28 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 166.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.9 %
Waterplane Area: 9,871 Square feet or 917 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 256 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.43
- Overall: 0.90
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t - Long-range wireless
24t - Flag-facilities
16t - 8 x 18" Torpedoes
Sakura is cute. Those 5" guns pack a punch and center line is a nice layout. Cant say Im a fan of how small she is compared to the F-class, but thats a 2 year old design at this point. Maybe I should look at a 140mm armed version...
Quote from: snip on April 02, 2020, 05:15:12 PM
Sakura is cute. Those 5" guns pack a punch and center line is a nice layout. Cant say Im a fan of how small she is compared to the F-class, but thats a 2 year old design at this point. Maybe I should look at a 140mm armed version...
The IJN fields alot of 5" guns I've noted :)
The Parthians are just now finishing a new 120mm gun, but I'm planning a 135mm (close to 140) being more the 'standard'....if I get there..120 might have to do.
Quote from: Desertfox on April 02, 2020, 04:22:31 PM
Improvement on the Umikaze class, adding 1000nm range, and a much heavier armament.
Sakura, Japan Destroyer laid down 1912
my first thought was, wow, why don't mine go 30kts, then I realized mine are a 1910 class. Plus I don't seem to have the knack of destroyer design.
Well I am restricted to 750t destroyers so can't really make them much bigger. Japan does not have a 4" or equivalent gun, so its either 3" like the previous class or 5". I do have quite a bit of experience with destroyers, New Switzerland back in the day had lots and lots and lots of them...
Quote from: Desertfox on April 03, 2020, 01:13:23 AM
Well I am restricted to 750t destroyers so can't really make them much bigger. Japan does not have a 4" or equivalent gun, so its either 3" like the previous class or 5". I do have quite a bit of experience with destroyers, New Switzerland back in the day had lots and lots and lots of them...
Parthia is 750tonners as well, actually eyeing a set of new 500tonners. But my last was 1910- 29.50 knots...smaller guns (90mm), but 50% more fuel tonnage, and 40t is a lot for ships these size.
Have the Japanese decided that FC on DDs/DDLs just doesn't add enough to the equation? Or is that an oversight?
FC or no FC you're not hitting anything from a destroyer... its not really worth the 4 tons of misc weight. The range isn't where I want it yet, but its 1,000nm that the previous class.
A concept at this point. A dedicated raider, not very fast but can cruise at high speeds for a long time. Can support itself indefinitely away from ports. Very cheap so can be built in numbers.
Mogami class, Japan Raider laid down 1912
Displacement:
1,700 t light; 1,781 t standard; 2,464 t normal; 3,010 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(390.00 ft / 390.00 ft) x 42.00 ft x (11.70 / 13.53 ft)
(118.87 m / 118.87 m) x 12.80 m x (3.57 / 4.12 m)
Armament:
5 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 185 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1912 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 315 lbs / 143 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,122 shp / 9,789 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,200nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,229 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
174 - 227
Cost:
£0.169 million / $0.677 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 85 tons, 3.4 %
- Guns: 85 tons, 3.4 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 570 tons, 23.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 802 tons, 32.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 764 tons, 31.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 230 tons, 9.3 %
- Hull below water: 170 tons
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,321 lbs / 1,506 Kg = 53.1 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.450 / 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.36 ft / 3.46 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.8 %
Waterplane Area: 10,448 Square feet or 971 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 148 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 55 lbs/sq ft or 270 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 0.98
- Overall: 0.90
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
10t - 1905 Fire Control
25t - Long-range wireless
15t - Improved spotting/reconnaissance equipment
10t - 4 x 18" Torpedo Tubes
170t - Out-of-Port Resupply
Nothing to see here, just your average fishing boat.
Fishing Vessel #42, Japan Junk (Reconnaissance ship) laid down 1910
Displacement:
100 t light; 102 t standard; 110 t normal; 116 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(80.00 ft / 80.00 ft) x 32.00 ft x (3.00 / 3.13 ft)
(24.38 m / 24.38 m) x 9.75 m x (0.91 / 0.95 m)
Armament:
1 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal gun - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 300 per gun
Machine gun in deck mount, 1912 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
4 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 0 lbs / 0 kg
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 144 ihp / 107 Kw = 10.00 kts
Range 900nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 14 tons
Complement:
16 - 22
Cost:
£0.005 million / $0.019 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
- Guns: 0 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 9 tons, 8.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 44 tons, 39.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 10 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 47 tons, 42.8 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull above water: 2 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
539 lbs / 244 Kg = 8,616.5 x 0.5 " / 13 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2.01
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 8.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.506
Length to Beam Ratio: 2.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 8.94 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 5.24 ft / 1.60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 45.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.6 %
Waterplane Area: 1,640 Square feet or 152 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 167 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 115 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 3.60
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
15t- Junk sail rig
25t - Long-range wireless
6t - Espionage equipment
Updated the intelligence junk, conversion from a stock civilian junk, cost 28t, $0.028
"Fishing Boat 42", Japan Junk (espionage ship) laid down 1900 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
95 t light; 97 t standard; 99 t normal; 100 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(80.00 ft / 80.00 ft) x 32.00 ft x (2.70 / 2.73 ft)
(24.38 m / 24.38 m) x 9.75 m x (0.82 / 0.83 m)
Armament:
1 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal gun - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 300 per gun
Machine gun in deck mount, 1900 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
4 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 0 lbs / 0 kg
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 54 ihp / 41 Kw = 7.90 kts
Range 420nm at 7.90 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 tons
Complement:
15 - 20
Cost:
£0.004 million / $0.015 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
- Guns: 0 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 42 tons, 43.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 tons, 3.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 49 tons, 49.6 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull above water: 4 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
755 lbs / 342 Kg = 12,075.9 x 0.5 " / 13 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2.29
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 7.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.61
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 2.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 8.94 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 5.24 ft / 1.60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 34.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.3 %
Waterplane Area: 1,706 Square feet or 158 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 175 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 111 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 3.61
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
21t- Junk sail rig
25t - Long-range wireless
3t - Espionage equipment
2 separate petrol motors
1 x 50 hp powers boat, max speed 7.7kts
1 x 4 hp powers wireless
I really liked the coast defense cruiser I designed for the Inca, so made a colonial gunboat version for the Japanese. Guns are big enough to dissuade most PCs and keep the locals in check and it can self-deploy, while being very cheap.
Thonburi, Japan Colonial Gunboat laid down 1913
Displacement:
2,499 t light; 2,670 t standard; 2,934 t normal; 3,145 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(340.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 47.00 ft x (11.90 / 12.57 ft)
(103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 14.33 m x (3.63 / 3.83 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,366 lbs / 619 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,059 shp / 6,012 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 474 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
199 - 259
Cost:
£0.272 million / $1.087 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 283 tons, 9.6 %
- Guns: 283 tons, 9.6 %
Armour: 550 tons, 18.7 %
- Belts: 168 tons, 5.7 %
- Armament: 98 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 266 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 344 tons, 11.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 966 tons, 32.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 435 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 357 tons, 12.2 %
- Hull below water: 250 tons
- On freeboard deck: 77 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,668 lbs / 1,664 Kg = 14.3 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.23 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.7 %
Waterplane Area: 11,048 Square feet or 1,026 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 360 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
30t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
8t - 4 x 18" TT
44t - 2 x Extra boats
250t - Out-of-port Resupply
QuoteFor the Thonburi design, I personally find the limited protected volume (86% of normal length armored) to be a major flaw and would ether improve the protected volume or provide additional total protection for the waterline. While I don't expect the ship would survive a prolonged engagement because of this, its a mean little ship that I'm ok with having a practically nonexistent need to plan for.
When you are trying to stuff 20kts, 8in guns, and self-deployment capability into 2,500t, somethings gotta give.
I would like to hear Kirk's thoughts on the included Out-Of-Port resupply tonnage being usable by the ship its based on. That is admittedly a scenario I did not envision when writing that provision of the rules.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 06, 2020, 10:13:25 AMWhen you are trying to stuff 20kts, 8in guns, and self-deployment capability into 2,500t, somethings gotta give.
I hope a "Tomozuru"-type incident isn't going to happen...
Quote from: snip on May 06, 2020, 11:18:13 AM
I would like to hear Kirk's thoughts on the included Out-Of-Port resupply tonnage being usable by the ship its based on. That is admittedly a scenario I did not envision when writing that provision of the rules.
Honestly, I'm trying to go by what's written.
There are a great number of deteal type things that are not written, but I want to minimize the number of 'mod calls'.
Like - it should be understood that the size of the tonnage block dedicated to Fleet Supply does kinda indicate it's range of capabilities. 100 x 30t fleet supply is not the same as 3000t.
Does that ship really have room for armor furnaces, gun relining, reserve shells, or other stuff - no.
In this case, I've built cruisers with miscellaneous weight for extra stores to allow longer raiding time. I believe I set aside 300 odd tons...but for a 7000 ton ship. Similar concept.
I think I also designed my destroyer leaders to care for their DDs and themselves...maybe just the DDs.
Fox has built one that just uses the existing rule architecture.
Should that tonnage be sufficient to allow it to keep distant station for long periods of time without deterioration - yeah, extra stores/spare parts, etc.
Did ships get outfitted for long distance self- support...yeah, mainly in the sailing navy where fuel wasn't an issue.
So it makes the rule test.
It makes the 'I can see how that works' test.
I'm inclined to allow it, though other points of view are welcome.
The bit that bothers me is actually the twin 8" on that hull- especially that beam, but the hull in general. Very low displacement, minimal hull girder, narrow beam.
Also, with that BC, it's going to be very narrow where the turrets are.
This might be one of those ships that can't actually fire it's guns without distorting and damaging her own hull. .. like Renown, Repulse, Furious, a number of Japanese ships, ..and then there were the various Japanese vessels that just were built to light for their size and had to put back in for reinforcement.
Fox... can you provide an example of a ship with twin 8"/40 or 8"/45 (ie similar ME) and a 14m beam?
So -
I think the namesake qualifies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thonburi-class_coastal_defence_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thonburi-class_coastal_defence_ship)
Quote from: Desertfox on May 06, 2020, 08:29:53 PM
I think the namesake qualifies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thonburi-class_coastal_defence_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thonburi-class_coastal_defence_ship)
Yes...
First, I'll point out that it's 14.4m, and yours is 14.3m.
That is minor.
You can easily expand without disrupting the design greatly.
When dealing with a minimum hull like this, we are using it as the minimum valid vessel.
The fact it's an interwar Japanese design does raise a caution flag. Carriers, cruisers, destroyers, they kept pushing to the minimum hull, and having to fix things.
Designs that aren't repeated or get changed in later vessels of the same class (Italian Condottori) are also caution flag.
The fact it's 1938, when metallurgy was much better is also a problem, but at least it isn't US with all the STS steel construction.
But beam - ok, 14.4 is apparently a minimum beam.
The other concern I mentioned was Hull strength. Can that hull take the shock of those guns firing, or the concentrated weight of the turret.
There .. the linked vessel is 76.5m long, 14.43m wide, 4.17m draft, 2265t,
From a picture in Janes- freeboard seems to be ~15-18ft foreward, 8-10ft aft...presuming those Thai sailors are about 5ft.
The ship you posted : (103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 14.33 m x (3.63 / 3.83 m) 3,145 t full load Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548 - Average freeboard: 10.64 ft / 3.24 m
So you've taken the minimum hull, shaved 0.1m in beam.. again fixable.
You've then added ~40% in length, while decreasing the draft by .54m (1/8), - which reduces the strength of the hull girder. Longer means more stress on the ship, and shallower means less rigidity and strength to resist that.
So had an idea for a final test :
Your empty hull with just dimensions and turrets : 2.35
Same BC, but original ship dimensions and turrets : 2.54
So yeah, what the longer, skinnier hull girder means is ...you have a weaker hull than the "minimum ship".
If built, this vessel is is potentially subject to catastrophic failure.
Sidenote : If model 5" breechloaders, you get 5" breechloaders. There is a weight difference between BL and QF and AA settings. Plus 5" is a heavier weapon than the 3" they had.
A few more close examples, both the Ushakov and the Väinämöinen mounted 10" guns on 52ft and 55ft respectively, the Odin stuffed two 9.4" single turrets side by side on 48ft, and the much larger Aoba mounted twin 8" turrets on 52ft, the Arkansas class monitors stuffed a twin 12" turret into only 50ft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Ushakov-class_coastal_defense_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Ushakov-class_coastal_defense_ship)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_coastal_defence_ship_V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_coastal_defence_ship_V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin-class_coastal_defense_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin-class_coastal_defense_ship)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoba-class_cruiser (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoba-class_cruiser)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas-class_monitor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas-class_monitor)
What I think Kirk is trying to say is that while the design is technically feasible (as you have provided historical examples), it is a design that would be subject to additional stresses then its OTL equivalents and as such is at greater risk of issues resulting from those stresses. Not an assured problem, but something to be aware of from a design perspective. Whether the risk is worth the gains in capability is your decision from a player preservative.
What I'm trying to argue, is that while I don't expect this ship to survive Mogami (Midway) levels of punishment, it shouldn't reach Tomozuru incident levels either. Basically, probably more vulnerable to battle damage but not to self-sabotage.
What I'm saying is that if you take the minimum ship, and then weaken it further and try to cram the same or more (5" instead of 3") into it, you should expect a poor result.
For N7, That ship risks self-damage from firing, and hull failure in very large storms, and damage from combat could combine with existing stresses.
Can you make it - sure.
That's up to you.
I'm telling you how it's been judged.
I'm not sure what the point of posting those wiki posts are.. a bunch of larger ships, most with greater BC, all with more beam, and substantially more draft.
The Odin class mounts old guns with low MVs, one's a monitor-different fish.
The Aoba's have the problem that I remember reading about the single turret Japanese cruisers- may have been Furutaka's being so lightly built that the hull distorted and they couldn't fully traverse the guns, leading to reconstruction. The fact the Aobas put in for a major overhaul where they rebuilt them suggests they may have shared that problem. So they are not a good example.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 08, 2020, 11:29:01 AM
What I'm trying to argue, is that while I don't expect this ship to survive Mogami (Midway) levels of punishment, it shouldn't reach Tomozuru incident levels either. Basically, probably more vulnerable to battle damage but not to self-sabotage.
Let RNGus shine upon you.
But is the Thonburi a "minimum" ship? Neither of the two ships are reported to have suffered structural issues and the Thonburi herself not only capsized and sank, but was refloated and repaired, not what one would do to a structurally weak ship. The Thonburis also had 8/50 guns, heavier and more powerful than the 8/45s on this design.
The Furutakas and Aobas where also designed to go 35knots, that in itself puts a lot of strain on the hull. The other ships are examples of cramming very big guns into very small ships with small beams.
I just don't feel that a ship that meets all of the rules should be penalized by being "at risk of moderator-inflicted incidents". Those cases are clearly spelled out in the rules and this particular design doesn't fall under any of them. I mean I'd rather not have them, but if there are going to be beam-gun restrictions, shouldn't they spelled out in the Ship Design Guidelines?
Well increased the beam and ended up adding more misc weight.
Surabaya, Japan Colonial Gunboat laid down 1913
Displacement:
2,494 t light; 2,665 t standard; 2,930 t normal; 3,142 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(340.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (11.40 / 12.04 ft)
(103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 14.94 m x (3.47 / 3.67 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,366 lbs / 619 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,132 shp / 6,067 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 477 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
198 - 258
Cost:
£0.272 million / $1.088 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 288 tons, 9.8 %
- Guns: 288 tons, 9.8 %
Armour: 511 tons, 17.4 %
- Belts: 169 tons, 5.8 %
- Armament: 92 tons, 3.1 %
- Armour Deck: 233 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 347 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 962 tons, 32.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 436 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 385 tons, 13.1 %
- Hull below water: 250 tons
- On freeboard deck: 90 tons
- Above deck: 45 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,570 lbs / 1,620 Kg = 13.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 50.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 5.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.7 %
Waterplane Area: 11,519 Square feet or 1,070 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 360 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
30t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
10t - 4 x 18" TT
60t - 2 x Extra boats
20t - Spare or Mines
250t - Out-of-port Resupply
Or better yet, drop the extra boats and add more armor/hull strengthening.
Surabaya, Japan Colonial Gunboat laid down 1913
Displacement:
2,494 t light; 2,665 t standard; 2,930 t normal; 3,142 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(340.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (11.40 / 12.04 ft)
(103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 14.94 m x (3.47 / 3.67 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,366 lbs / 619 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,132 shp / 6,067 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 477 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
198 - 258
Cost:
£0.272 million / $1.088 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 288 tons, 9.8 %
- Guns: 288 tons, 9.8 %
Armour: 570 tons, 19.4 %
- Belts: 227 tons, 7.8 %
- Armament: 92 tons, 3.1 %
- Armour Deck: 233 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 347 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 964 tons, 32.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 436 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 11.1 %
- Hull below water: 250 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 45 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,590 lbs / 1,629 Kg = 14.0 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 50.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 5.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.7 %
Waterplane Area: 11,519 Square feet or 1,070 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 360 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
30t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
10t - 4 x 18" TT
80t - 2 x Extra boats
250t - Out-of-port Resupply
Quote from: Desertfox on May 08, 2020, 02:46:47 PM
But is the Thonburi a "minimum" ship?
I just don't feel that a ship that meets all of the rules should be penalized by being "at risk of moderator-inflicted incidents". Those cases are clearly spelled out in the rules and this particular design doesn't fall under any of them. I mean I'd rather not have them, but if there are going to be beam-gun restrictions, shouldn't they spelled out in the Ship Design Guidelines?
The 'minimum ship' is the concept that 'hey it worked here, and it's a similar type of ship, so I guess it's probably workable.' So the fact the Thonburi did not have known problems, and did not wind up needing a reconstruction probably means that those guns on that hull appear to work.
Technically the Thonburi were 200mm not 203mm, wiki is incorrect on that. Still a little heavier, and I didn't compare the ME. But I don't think 3mm or 5calibers is a groundbreaking difference.
The design you put forward is slightly more guns, on a weaker hull.
The assumption does not apply.
I can design a twin 15" turreted vessel that 40m long with a 10m beam and 9m draft...SS says that's fine.
SS doesn't error check very well.
We do not spell these things out in excruciating detail because we're trying to use the KISS principle.
Which works fine until folks start looking for the edges.
Interplayer review of designs is supposed to highlight potential problems. Part of that is that a number of things have kinda been agreed in the course of play
The 'mod' may or may not bother to look at posted vessels because I only have so much time to put into this.
We do want players pointing out percieved problems with designs.
However we don't want players arguing about borderline calls and what BC is ok, what beam, etc. Too many bitter fights in Wesworld over the years.
So that burden falls on the Mod. <looks around>. So I'm the one you get to throw things at.
Personally, I'd rather not have to burn time on these issues, but it's part of what I've volunteered on. So I draw on what I remember reading, I may check my various books or do some looking online.. and then I make a call. I try to explain a bit so if I've missed something fundamental, it can be pointed out. I don't see that here.
So, your naval architects are telling you it's a bad idea to build that as proposed.
You can build it as proposed
You could build the OTL Thonburi
You could build your version but with a stronger hull.
But shouldn't we be seeking those edges?
All I'm trying to say is that if something is significant enough to invoke the "at risk of moderator-inflicted incidents" rule, its should be significant enough to be stated in the Ship Design Guidelines. Specifically so the mod has less work to do. At the end of the day we all use SS3 (with all its problems) and the same rules and guidelines, so whether our ships are historical or not, we are all on the same playing field, and as long as a SS3 design meets all the rules and guidelines, it shouldn't be unfairly penalized. Otherwise, we will all end up with Clevelands.
250 t for extra supplies seems like a dilution of the ship's ability. Use it for combat capabilities and build a small depot ship to go with it, I'd say.
Oh God Cleveland.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 08, 2020, 06:05:52 PM
But shouldn't we be seeking those edges?
All I'm trying to say is that if something is significant enough to invoke the "at risk of moderator-inflicted incidents" rule, its should be significant enough to be stated in the Ship Design Guidelines. Specifically so the mod has less work to do. At the end of the day we all use SS3 (with all its problems) and the same rules and guidelines, so whether our ships are historical or not, we are all on the same playing field, and as long as a SS3 design meets all the rules and guidelines, it shouldn't be unfairly penalized. Otherwise, we will all end up with Clevelands.
Fox,
Finding the edge is exactly what you are doing.
building a 2000-3000t ship with 2T2 8" turrets is seeking the edge.
The edges are fuzzy, if you cloned Thonburi, since it's a proven design... you'd be safe.
You are choosing to go past them.
I explained the problem and the risks.
You can build it.
There were ships built with glaring faults that had to turn around and go back to dock for refit.
You have that choice.
As for encoding everything - No, the decision to NOT do that, to strip the rules N3-N6 rules down and KISS, rely on the Mod to make calls
That was part of the core setup pregame and subject to much discussion.
We made a big adjustment, mainly focused on the colonial expansion. We may tinker with wording or improve some things, but we're not reinventing N7.
Call it KISS, I've call it Snip-O-Vision, and I've stated long ago that I like things more complex, , but when I signed up to play, I was also agreeing to the KISS concept and that Snip got final say.
Now, if Snip thinks I'm going off course, his job is to call my attention to the issue. Which is kinda what he did with the Cruiser turret issue.
Likewise, if the players as a group think I'm off course, let me know.
IF a bunch of you say 'hey, we don't want oversight on the ships...or something else...ok I'll stop doing that part. Less work for me.
But when I say 'hey considering these variables, this is how it is'... and inform you of a decision...
if I missed an important variable - bring it up, show me what I missed. For example, if I pointed at HMS York and said 'that's the smallest 8" cruiser... then point at Thomburi and say what about that.
But if there isn't some glaring flaw, I kinda expect buy off instead of a long discussion every time.
Perhaps an expansion of the "Ship Design Guidelines" with a "Best Practices" section? I believe its with keeping to the KISS principle. Take L:B ratio, I can quickly reference the Guidelines section and figure out if my ship is good before even posting it, then once posted anyone can easily cross reference it to the Guidelines. Otherwise, with a grey area like minimum beam for a specific turret, I have to go and do research and you have to go and do research and it ends up being a longer and more complex discussion. The L:B guideline doesn't actually prevent anyone from building a ship with say a 13:1 ratio but does say bad things can happen if you do, while say an 11.5:1 should not have anything happen to it.
What I'm trying to say, is that anything that has a "moderator-inflicted" possibility, should be documented somewhere easily accessible, that way when designing a ship one can go thru a checklist and make sure its good even before its posted.
Quote250 t for extra supplies seems like a dilution of the ship's ability. Use it for combat capabilities and build a small depot ship to go with it, I'd say.
Yes it does impact its combat capabilities, but I believe its a worthwhile trade-off. The ship's main job is two-fold, intimidate locals in far away places, and be a deterrent in far away places. If it ends up in combat its already failed at its main job. So the ability to be at far away places with minimal support is more important than its actual combat capabilities. Hence, why armor is on the light side.
Reducing the deck armor, dropping the extra boats, and slightly reducing range, gets the hull strength up to 1.00 on a 49ft beam. The Out-of-port Resupply costs a total of 330t of overall tonnage, design comes out to 2,080t without it (while keeping hull strength at 1.0).
Surabaya, Japan Colonial Gunboat laid down 1913
Displacement:
2,410 t light; 2,585 t standard; 2,827 t normal; 3,021 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(340.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (11.00 / 11.59 ft)
(103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 14.94 m x (3.35 / 3.53 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,366 lbs / 619 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,976 shp / 5,950 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 436 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
193 - 252
Cost:
£0.268 million / $1.071 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 290 tons, 10.2 %
- Guns: 290 tons, 10.2 %
Armour: 401 tons, 14.2 %
- Belts: 176 tons, 6.2 %
- Armament: 92 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 116 tons, 4.1 %
- Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 340 tons, 12.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,083 tons, 38.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 417 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 296 tons, 10.5 %
- Hull below water: 241 tons
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons
- Above deck: 45 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,822 lbs / 1,734 Kg = 14.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 50.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 5.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.3 %
Waterplane Area: 11,519 Square feet or 1,070 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 402 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
30t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
10t - 4 x 18" TT
241t - Out-of-port Resupply
War experience, very cheap, dedicated scout and picket boat. Designed with a high cruise speed, its primary mission is to use an observation balloon, since the Chinese being able to use Jeju Island as an observation post has been a significant problem. Initially was going to use a Sakura class destroyer as the base, but the 50% machinery rule was causing issues, so instead its based on the Uji class gunboats. The 90mm guns are supposed to be signal rocket mortar/launchers in case of radio failure.
Kaibokan, Japan Scout laid down 1913
Displacement:
705 t light; 730 t standard; 839 t normal; 926 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(270.00 ft / 270.00 ft) x 30.00 ft x (7.40 / 7.97 ft)
(82.30 m / 82.30 m) x 9.14 m x (2.26 / 2.43 m)
Armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 20.0 cal guns - 19.94lbs / 9.04kg shells, 150 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 115 lbs / 52 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,054 shp / 6,008 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 2,900nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 196 tons
Complement:
77 - 101
Cost:
£0.080 million / $0.320 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 16 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 316 tons, 37.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 306 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 134 tons, 16.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 7.7 %
- Hull below water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 15 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
688 lbs / 312 Kg = 11.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 35.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.70 ft / 3.26 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.3 %
Waterplane Area: 5,348 Square feet or 497 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 183 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 0.90
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
15t - 1905 FC & Experimental Radar
25t - LR wireless
25t - Observation balloon equipment
The first true dreadnought of the Japanese Navy and the first of the 8-8 plan. Two planned Kawachi, Settsu. Uses the Tosa-class layout.
(https://www.navypedia.org/uploads/images/ships/japan/jap_bb65.gif)
Kawachi class, Japan Battleship laid down 1913
Displacement:
17,997 t light; 19,198 t standard; 20,616 t normal; 21,750 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (27.40 / 28.59 ft)
(175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 25.60 m x (8.35 / 8.71 m)
Armament:
10 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
5 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10,138 lbs / 4,598 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 70.00 ft / 21.34 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 45,645 shp / 34,051 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,553 tons
Complement:
859 - 1,118
Cost:
£1.922 million / $7.688 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,793 tons, 8.7 %
- Guns: 1,793 tons, 8.7 %
Armour: 6,643 tons, 32.2 %
- Belts: 2,339 tons, 11.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 161 tons, 0.8 %
- Armament: 2,302 tons, 11.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,583 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Towers: 259 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 1,789 tons, 8.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,342 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,619 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 430 tons, 2.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
- Above deck: 280 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,791 lbs / 13,966 Kg = 35.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 50.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.80 ft / 6.34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.2 %
Waterplane Area: 33,415 Square feet or 3,104 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 820 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.84
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
180t for 1908 FC
100t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
150t spare
You cannot use the Strengthened Structural Bulkhead option for creating the TDS. It does not correctly factor into composite strenght. Additional Bulkheads need to be used regardless of the intended form of the TDS. I'm 99% sure this is written in the formal rules somewhere, and if it is not that is a error on my part when writing the rules and should have been there from Day 0.
That aside, its a tight little design. Not a fan of the armor layout. I'd personally question the use of a full length deck without the corresponding belts. Especially with the short citadel that cannot serve as a raft-body. All deck-mount secondaries feels a little advanced, tho Japan probably has the best first-hand experience with how casemated secondaries do against smaller targets. I would argue for having some the guns in hull casemates, but would personally be ok with a majority in deck mounts.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 13, 2020, 05:10:51 PM
Kawachi class, Japan Battleship laid down 1913
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (27.40 / 28.59 ft)
(175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 25.60 m x (8.35 / 8.71 m)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 70.00 ft / 21.34 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
A couple of interesting observations.
your 3" guns have a 1" armor shield, but your 5" guns have none.
You have multiple armor decks, but you don't mention in the notes what they are.
You have a 1" thick TDS set 2m from the hull.
Honestly, that may stop a 16" torpedo, it probably won't an 18' and will accomplish little against a 21" torpedo.
The 25" is thin, and the space insufficient.
The TDS also only rises 4.27m from the bottom.
Since the draft is 8.71m,
that leaves nearly 4.5m of space between the top of the TDS and the waterline.
That is not an effective design.
The Strengthened Bulkhead and the Admonition not to use SS3 for torpedoes were both prior Snip Mod - decrees.
They are not written down, but are commonly understood by those of us from the beginning.
It is part of why I misunderstood the role of Mod in ship design review.
If necessary I will write them into the Design guidelines so they can be enforced.
Those should be easy to fix. Dropping the ends deck armor should help with the TDS height. As far as the TDS I am of the opinion that less is more, thick bulkheads are probably too rigid, and torpedoes are likely to defeat most TDS systems, so its better to mitigate the damage that to try to stop it. So some of that spare misc weight will go to improved damage control.
The secondaries armor is actually correct, I started with the Satsuma's SS3 file, which had the 10" secondaries, so the 5" guns are actually the teritiaries. But the whole secondaries layout needs some work, since I'll need space for 3" single mounts since I don't actually have a twin mount, so most 5" guns will go in casements.
Better?
Kawachi class, Japan Battleship laid down 1913
Displacement:
17,990 t light; 19,198 t standard; 20,616 t normal; 21,750 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (27.40 / 28.59 ft)
(175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 25.60 m x (8.35 / 8.71 m)
Armament:
10 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
5 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10,138 lbs / 4,598 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 64.00 ft / 19.51 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 45,645 shp / 34,051 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,553 tons
Complement:
859 - 1,118
Cost:
£1.922 million / $7.687 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,799 tons, 8.7 %
- Guns: 1,799 tons, 8.7 %
Armour: 6,460 tons, 31.3 %
- Belts: 2,680 tons, 13.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 329 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 2,238 tons, 10.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,019 tons, 4.9 %
- Conning Tower: 194 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,789 tons, 8.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,412 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,626 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 530 tons, 2.6 %
- Hull below water: 200 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 280 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,767 lbs / 13,502 Kg = 34.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 50.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.8 %
Waterplane Area: 33,415 Square feet or 3,104 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 818 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
180t for 1908 FC
100t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
50t Spare
200t for Enhanced Damage Control
And a pair of battlecruisers to go with it (Kongo layout), Maya and Chokai.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQq35FO-Qy4B3JMuz0BrL50Z4IY7oAkXSMOC8BJVUUE29NryEeX&usqp=CAU)
Maya class, Japan Battlecruiser laid down 1913
Displacement:
15,994 t light; 16,994 t standard; 18,697 t normal; 20,060 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(594.76 ft / 590.00 ft) x 79.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.51 ft)
(181.28 m / 179.83 m) x 24.08 m x (8.23 / 8.69 m)
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,990 lbs / 3,624 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 65,912 shp / 49,170 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 7,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,066 tons
Complement:
799 - 1,039
Cost:
£1.768 million / $7.073 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,418 tons, 7.6 %
- Guns: 1,418 tons, 7.6 %
Armour: 4,710 tons, 25.2 %
- Belts: 2,163 tons, 11.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 364 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 1,415 tons, 7.6 %
- Armour Deck: 631 tons, 3.4 %
- Conning Tower: 137 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,583 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,013 tons, 37.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,704 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 270 tons, 1.4 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 70 tons
- Above deck: 150 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,464 lbs / 11,097 Kg = 28.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 50.00 %, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 21.40 ft / 6.52 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.8 %
Waterplane Area: 31,631 Square feet or 2,939 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 768 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.80
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
150t for 1908 FC
50t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
70t for Enhanced Damage Control
Quote from: Desertfox on May 13, 2020, 09:03:23 PM
Those should be easy to fix. Dropping the ends deck armor should help with the TDS height. As far as the TDS I am of the opinion that less is more, thick bulkheads are probably too rigid, and torpedoes are likely to defeat most TDS systems, so its better to mitigate the damage that to try to stop it. So some of that spare misc weight will go to improved damage control.
So this comes under - you get to do what you want.
The $ spend on the research for the tech would include such things as a caisson to do TDS testing.
Your naval engineers will inform you that research shows A TDS with proper stand off distance, and a thick enough elastic armor bulkhead will successfully confine the damage to the TDS system.
The exact distance and proper thickness of the bulkhead and any internal bulkheads would be subject to some debate.
Part of the job of the armored bulkhead was also to stop hull material turned into shards and projected at high speeds from punching holes.
Now, If I'm going to be stuck evaluating how these things do in combat,
I will be taking that above knowledge and factoring in what OTL engineers felt would work:
Breyer's depictions of ships show :
The French are weird - invented the idea, used two 19mm plates back to back, then dropped the concept, then had a little 8mm holding bulkhead on Bretagne, and I've found differenct reports on Normandie, from full TDS, to none, and I suspect a very narrow one from the beam. As a never-completed, there's not as much info.
The Germans uses a single thickness 40mm bulkhead.
The Brits went for a 38mm/1.5" and then 2" bulkhead.
Tosa actually went for 3x25mm back-to-back, so you'd get the elasticity of 25mm, but the toughness of 3.
Which is probably more effective than Yamamoto's which was single piece and too stiff.
The US with Texas was using a 38mm/1.5" , but in the later designs went to Liquid/void compartments separated by 19mm. Then went to having the final one "in" being the thicker armored bulkhead.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 13, 2020, 09:03:23 PM
Those should be easy to fix. Dropping the ends deck armor should help with the TDS height.
So I'm planning on laying out and running the Cheju-Do phase IV battle today or tomorrow.
The only thing I've done is I decided I should role that 2% chance of hit for the shot's
Hidden Dragon is taking prior to being 'in range'.
Got a hit.
On the belt. Rolled for where- end or citadel.
Location wound up being stern end belt, lower edge. That
was the only undamaged area of Fuji. The critical tore away the steering gear.
So, the IJN may in 1913 consider raft body flotation (full length belts) and if leaving the ends unprotected from even lighter damage is desirable.
Which way they decide on that - Fuji was barely afloat anyhow- is up to you. But I thought I should provide the information if you're working on capital ships.
By full length do you mean "100% of normal length" or the whole length of the hull? Unfortunately the Fuji is just too old and damaged against a modern opponent to really pull lessons from her.
Just a cheap minesweeper that can also lay mines if needed.
No 1, Japan Minesweeper laid down 1913
Displacement:
150 t light; 154 t standard; 174 t normal; 190 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(140.00 ft / 140.00 ft) x 24.00 ft x (3.70 / 3.95 ft)
(42.67 m / 42.67 m) x 7.32 m x (1.13 / 1.20 m)
Armament:
2 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 4 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, plus batteries,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 495 ihp / 369 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 36 tons
Complement:
23 - 31
Cost:
£0.010 million / $0.039 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 1.0 %
- Guns: 2 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 5 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 2.6 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 23 tons, 13.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 71 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 24 tons, 13.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 49 tons, 28.2 %
- Hull below water: 4 tons
- On freeboard deck: 45 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
624 lbs / 283 Kg = 156.1 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.501
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 11.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Average freeboard: 5.80 ft / 1.77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.6 %
Waterplane Area: 2,219 Square feet or 206 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 165 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.62
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t - Minesweeping gear
20t - Minelaying gear
4t - Electric drive
Quote from: Desertfox on May 14, 2020, 05:02:54 PM
By full length do you mean "100% of normal length" or the whole length of the hull? Unfortunately the Fuji is just too old and damaged against a modern opponent to really pull lessons from her.
The default length for the main belt is covering the fore deck and aft deck in your freeboard tab.
As you move those %, the default length covered by your deck and main belt changes.
SS comes with the Forecastle at 20% and stern at 15%, leaving 65% for the fore/aft decks.
That's the "raft body" concept, if you keep that citadel length unflooded, the ship will float even with the areas beyond it flooded.
Go shorter, and take too much damage to the unarmored ends, and you can loose the ship even if the citadel hasn't been flooded.
Armor decks vs. protective decks help a little, as they are usually higher on the hull, and so more of what is called "reserve buoyancy", and less risk of free flooding over the deck if the ship is low.
On the other hand you loose the protective armor slope behind your belt....which you then don't need to guard vs plunging shells...ack I'm getting off the topic.
Light cruiser with a heavier main battery in Furutaka-layout. Four planned: Furutaka, Kako, Aoba, Kinugasa.
Furutaka class, Japan Light Cruiser laid down 1913
Displacement:
3,105 t light; 3,239 t standard; 3,683 t normal; 4,038 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(420.00 ft / 420.00 ft) x 45.00 ft x (15.50 / 16.54 ft)
(128.02 m / 128.02 m) x 13.72 m x (4.72 / 5.04 m)
Armament:
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.92lbs / 49.41kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 702 lbs / 318 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 39,731 shp / 29,639 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 5,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 799 tons
Complement:
236 - 307
Cost:
£0.423 million / $1.694 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 182 tons, 4.9 %
- Guns: 182 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 88 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 70 tons, 1.9 %
Machinery: 1,536 tons, 41.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,234 tons, 33.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 578 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 1.8 %
- On freeboard deck: 45 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,885 lbs / 855 Kg = 17.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.452
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.32 ft / 4.67 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 151.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.8 %
Waterplane Area: 11,959 Square feet or 1,111 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 329 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.58
- Overall: 0.90
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
20t - 1908 Fire Control
25t - Long-range wireless
20t - 8 x 18" Torpedo Tubes
This replaces the "Mogami-class raider" previously seen in this thread. This is a multi-purpose littoral combatant. It can be deployed as a raider with enough supplies to self-deploy, used as a minelayer with up to 140 mines, can carry marines and landing craft as a fast transport, or fitted out with an observation balloon and used as a fleet scout. Primarily, these are to be used as colonial gunboats, with partial self-deploy (70t), a small marine contingent (40t), a small minelaying capability (20t), and a stationary-only observation balloon (10t).
Tenryu, Japan Littoral Combatant laid down 1912
Displacement:
1,400 t light; 1,460 t standard; 1,795 t normal; 2,063 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(342.64 ft / 340.00 ft) x 42.00 ft x (10.00 / 11.04 ft)
(104.44 m / 103.63 m) x 12.80 m x (3.05 / 3.36 m)
Armament:
5 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1912 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 315 lbs / 143 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,530 shp / 8,601 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 603 tons (40% coal)
Complement:
137 - 179
Cost:
£0.146 million / $0.583 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 85 tons, 4.7 %
- Guns: 85 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.7 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 477 tons, 26.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 629 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 396 tons, 22.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 195 tons, 10.9 %
- Hull above water: 140 tons
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 35 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,687 lbs / 765 Kg = 27.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.458
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 11.40 ft / 3.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.1 %
Waterplane Area: 9,036 Square feet or 839 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 257 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 0.90
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
10t - 1908 Fire Control
25t - LR Wireless
10t - 4 x 18" Torpedo Tubes
10t - Mine-sweeping Gear
140t - Mines/Supplies/Marines/Observation Balloon etc
No waterline protection at all on the Furutaka and with an armored deck is a interesting design choice. Cant say I'm a fan of the armament layout, your fire arcs severely limit how many guns you can use in a case or pursuit. I like the hull and how quick it is. What about reducing the guns on her and adding some additional protection?
Armor is useless if you can't hurt the enemy (Sumas vs Chinese cruisers). Looking at my 2 year plan, the first two might get delayed to 1914, and the next two could get the Aoba gun layout, fixing the guns available for chase issue.
The Japanese two-year plan:
2 x Kawachi class Battleships
2 x Maya class Battlecruisers
2 x Furutaka class Protected Cruisers*
4 x Tenryu class Colonial Cruisers
2 x Surabaya class Colonial Gunboats*
4-8 x Kaibokan class Scouts
6-18 x Misc Destroyers
10-20 x No1 Class Minesweepers
25-50 x 1905 MTBs
5 x 1900 Submarines
*The protected cruisers and colonial gunboats are most at risk for being delayed by the war.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 19, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
Armor is useless if you can't hurt the enemy (Sumas vs Chinese cruisers). Looking at my 2 year plan, the first two might get delayed to 1914, and the next two could get the Aoba gun layout, fixing the guns available for chase issue.
As a technical note, "armor decks" are generally fitted a deck level above the waterline, and meet the top of the belt.
A "armor deck" without a belt simply meets the side of the hull, and shells can pass between the waterline and deck.
A "protective deck" would be fitted at or just above the waterline, with sides descending below it.
Also, 13mm is so thin it - according to the numbers in the Gun Research- would only stop splinters from 78mm and below.
So I think that deck is a waste of tonnage.
as another observation, while a destroyer-sized hull may have good seakeeping and habitability, that is relative to other destroyer sized hulls.
Yeah that should be a protected deck mainly for splinters. I'm still not in love with the Furutakas, so thats another reason they might be pushed back.
The Tenryus are light but not exactly small, their hulls are about the same size as the Parthian sailing frigates. They just have a very low draft to allow them to operate in shallow coastal waters that other ships can't.
you can keep it as a protective deck vs. splinters, just be advised that shells over ~78mm will send splinters right through it. Which means the 90mm Chinese Destroyers.
As for ship size.
Lx B is indeed similar.. though yours at 0.44 BC and mine at 0.636 are different.
But beyond that -
It's actually quite a lot smaller internally than my frigates.
If you consider BC is the proportion of a LxB rectangle,
Then the height would be draft to weather deck.
So BC x L x B x draft+Weather deck
Parthia : 0.636x100x13x (4+3.86) =6498
Japan : 0.440 x103x12.8 x (2.7+3.05) = 3358
So while your LxB is indeed similar, your BC is smaller, and what in Mercantile would be GRT is smaller... by close to half.
So the original observation- that it's roomy for a destroyer sized vessel - stands.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 19, 2020, 10:11:37 AM
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.58
- Overall: 0.90
I'm surprised the "hull strained in all but light seas" warning isn't on.
I thought Furutaka had two raised mounts?
That it did... I ran the numbers and I can't afford them anyways until 1915. So both the Furutakas and the Surabayas are being shelved for the time being.
So this is the ship that sparked the Petrol Motor-Electric Drive question, until I realized it was a moot point since you can't increase bunkerage in a refurbishment, so going with an electric drive is the best option.
Basically, Japan is looking into buying the Magallanes class gunboats from Iberia and refurbishing them for colonial use. Changes would be improved engines, Japanese armament, and adding wireless, fire control, and mine-sweeping gear. Cost would be 0.1 BP and $0.25 per ship. No savings in $ (especially with having to pay Iberia for the ships) but savings in BP which Japan is short off, and in time getting these ships into service.
Magallanes class, Iberia/Japan Gunboat laid down 1894 (Engine 1913)
Displacement:
251 t light; 274 t standard; 281 t normal; 287 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(176.77 ft / 175.20 ft) x 23.62 ft x (6.24 / 6.32 ft)
(53.88 m / 53.40 m) x 7.20 m x (1.90 / 1.93 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1894 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1894 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 174 lbs / 79 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 1,169 ihp / 872 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 610nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 13 tons
Complement:
33 - 44
Cost:
£0.025 million / $0.101 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 31 tons, 11.1 %
- Guns: 31 tons, 11.1 %
Armour: 5 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 1.8 %
Machinery: 55 tons, 19.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 123 tons, 43.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 30 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 13.2 %
- Hull below water: 14 tons
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
410 lbs / 186 Kg = 6.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.33
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.381 / 0.384
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 8.90 ft / 2.71 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Average freeboard: 7.34 ft / 2.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.8 %
Waterplane Area: 2,377 Square feet or 221 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 187 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.45
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
3t - 1905 FC
10t - SR Wireless
10t - Minesweeping Gear
14t - Electric Drive
Range: 700nm at 10kts
Quote from: Desertfox on May 22, 2020, 02:11:57 PM
So this is the ship that sparked the Petrol Motor-Electric Drive question, until I realized it was a moot point since you can't increase bunkerage in a refurbishment, so going with an electric drive is the best option.
I've found that simply putting in new Reciprocating engines works pretty well. I don't necessarily need Turbines + Electric.
The main problem is that these ships are quite short-legged, and you can't increase bunkerage with a refurbishment, so the only way to increase range is by using petrol-electric. Oil-fired reciprocating also works as well but without the range boost.
Honestly for the price I would just consider building some new hulls and giving these a more basic refit with wireless, etc. The range they have is still good enough to coastal work and they could free up newer, longer ranged hulls for the duties that require them.
Another purchase the Japanese are considering.
The C-class has one glaring issue, the L:B ratio is 14.8! So like many historically flawed ships, these would have to undergo some sort of fixes. Would the following be enough to mitigate the "moderator-inflicted incidents" problem?
Changes are:
Dumping the gun armor -21t
De-rating the engines (limiting top speed) 31kts -> 30kts + no DD bonus
Dumping the reload torpedoes -24t
Dumping the depth charges -5 t
Limiting flag facilities -1t
Cross sectional: 0.5 -> 0.62
Overall: 0.54 -> 0.67
C-class, Iberia/Japan Destroyer laid down 1908
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,039 t standard; 1,115 t normal; 1,175 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(352.01 ft / 349.00 ft) x 23.56 ft x (10.50 / 10.90 ft)
(107.29 m / 106.38 m) x 7.18 m x (3.20 / 3.32 m)
Armament:
4 - 4.13" / 105 mm 50.0 cal guns - 37.39lbs / 16.96kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1908 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 350 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1908 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 152 lbs / 69 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 19,396 shp / 14,469 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 2,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 136 tons
Complement:
96 - 125
Cost:
£0.126 million / $0.506 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 30 tons, 2.7 %
- Guns: 30 tons, 2.7 %
Machinery: 594 tons, 53.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 292 tons, 26.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 115 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 83 tons, 7.4 %
- Hull below water: 23 tons
- Hull above water: 30 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
250 lbs / 113 Kg = 7.1 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.452 / 0.459
Length to Beam Ratio: 14.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 26.00 %, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m, 15.91 ft / 4.85 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Aft deck: 24.00 %, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m, 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Average freeboard: 10.81 ft / 3.30 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.3 %
Waterplane Area: 5,253 Square feet or 488 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 134 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.62
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 0.67
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
24t - 4x3x450mm Torpedoes
2t - Pumps
25t - LR Wireless
9t - Flag Facilities
23t - Derated Engines
Two of the Chikumas, were badly damaged, to repair them would cost almost 5.3 BPs, which is simply too much for obsolete ships. Instead, scrapping and reusing their main armament gets me this for half the cost:
Tone, Japan Colonial Cruiser laid down 1913
Displacement:
3,900 t light; 4,159 t standard; 4,673 t normal; 5,084 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(403.53 ft / 400.00 ft) x 47.00 ft x (17.40 / 18.55 ft)
(122.99 m / 121.92 m) x 14.33 m x (5.30 / 5.65 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 170 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1903 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 170 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 320 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,711 lbs / 776 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 31,964 shp / 23,845 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 5,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 925 tons
Complement:
282 - 367
Cost:
£0.482 million / $1.926 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 373 tons, 8.0 %
- Guns: 373 tons, 8.0 %
Armour: 689 tons, 14.7 %
- Belts: 244 tons, 5.2 %
- Armament: 78 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 343 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,253 tons, 26.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,445 tons, 30.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 773 tons, 16.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 140 tons, 3.0 %
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 45 tons
- Above deck: 45 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,690 lbs / 1,674 Kg = 14.4 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.510
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.51 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.60 ft / 4.75 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.9 %
Waterplane Area: 12,526 Square feet or 1,164 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 81 lbs/sq ft or 394 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.83
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
45t - FC & Flagship Facilities
20t - 8 x 18" Torpedo Tubes
25t - LR Wireless
50t - Observation Balloon
Put the guns in twins, and use all 8 of'm in one 6Ktons ship.
Keeping the old 127mm BLs seems like a poor plan, as the RoF of said weapons is quite low as recent combat shows. I can see reusing the 203s, but the 127s just need to get scraped with the rest of the ship.
Quote from: maddox on June 02, 2020, 01:08:47 PM
Put the 8" guns in twins, and use all 8 of'm in one 6Ktons ship.
I only have four 8in guns available, since only two Chikumas were damaged, the other two suffered no damage. Making twin turrets, defeats the goal of saving money by reusing the guns.
The 5in guns should be QF... but I just realized I have all the PCs listed as 5in BL, while all the SC have 5in QF, when in reality it should be the same gun.
Edit: It would actually help to read the rules first... Repairs are not as expensive as I thought, cheaper to repair them that to build a new ships. Tone will not be built.
Quote...Tone will not be built.
Too bad, he would have made an honest cheap colonial cruiser and his speed of 27kts would have allowed him to make reconnaissance in front of a battle line and to support the destroyers of the squadron during a torpedo charge.
Not to worry, I just finished 4 Yahagi class destroyer leaders, and the repaired Chikumas are decent colonial cruisers. The Furutakas will be back eventually and they will fulfill those role.
A torpedo boat/submarine transport/tender. It can transport and support either 10 x 40t TBs or 4 x 100t submarines. It uses petrol engines for commonality with the ships it supports.
Jingei class, Japan Torpedo Boat Tender laid down 1913
Displacement:
2,080 t light; 2,140 t standard; 2,418 t normal; 2,641 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (9.90 / 10.63 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 15.24 m x (3.02 / 3.24 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 76 lbs / 34 kg
Machinery:
Petrol Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,028 ihp / 1,513 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 7,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 501 tons
Complement:
172 - 224
Cost:
£0.099 million / $0.394 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12 tons, 0.5 %
- Guns: 12 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 96 tons, 4.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 662 tons, 27.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 338 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,310 tons, 54.2 %
- Hull below water: 400 tons
- Hull above water: 80 tons
- On freeboard deck: 800 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,167 lbs / 3,251 Kg = 530.9 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 10.60 ft / 3.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 37.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 82.7 %
Waterplane Area: 10,667 Square feet or 991 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 157 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 49 lbs/sq ft or 239 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
30t - LR wireless + FC
40t - 20 Marines
40t - Camouflage
800t - Cranes and space for 10 x 40t TB or 4 x 100t Submarines
400t - 4,000t of Out-of-port resupply
Did we get a firm ruling on if Petrol engines were allowed and if so what sort of modifications they have?
Well historical submarines of the time period had ~600hp petrol engines, so I designed it around 4 of them downrated to increase reliability.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 26, 2020, 10:21:35 AM
Another purchase the Japanese are considering.
The C-class has one glaring issue, the L:B ratio is 14.8! So like many historically flawed ships, these would have to undergo some sort of fixes. Would the following be enough to mitigate the "moderator-inflicted incidents" problem?
Changes are:
Dumping the gun armor -21t
De-rating the engines (limiting top speed) 31kts -> 30kts + no DD bonus
Dumping the reload torpedoes -24t
Dumping the depth charges -5 t
Limiting flag facilities -1t
Cross sectional: 0.5 -> 0.62
Overall: 0.54 -> 0.67
Quite an interesting question.
The solution would be in the consideration of what forces act on the L:B ratio.
The Length : Draft, or Hull Girder is what matters for the tendency of the bow/stern to push "up", or when the ship goes through a wave trough.
So L:B would be more sideway pressures and torsion forces as the ship moves through the waves.
Worse, the further away from the midpoint, the more lever action. So 14:1 is about 36% worse than 12:1.
So...would those measures either strengthen the hull, or lessen the torsion forces?
It's little hard without looking at the original
A) Depth Charges do not exist yet.
B) Derating the engines slightly would only matter if you are attempting to go through waves at top speed. Plus it's a false economy, the Engines are still there and weigh the same, unless you're paying to put in new ones.
C) The reload torpedoes are presumably not kept at the ends of the ship.
D) Flag facilities are high on the ship, but not really at the ends.
E) dumping the gun armor would help, as that would be mass towards the extremes of the ship, and relatively high. However, the guns are evenly spread, so only the 2 at the ends matter.
Call it 11 tons "saved".
The historical solution was both reducing the forces on the vessel, but also adding internal structure.
But how to figure out what's needed?
Well, the basic hull here is 107.29m * 7.18 * 3.2 with a BC of 0.452 and a freeboard of 2.7 except the forecastle. Which steps up 8 feet, making it hard to fire directly forward.
Sticking a simple 10kt engine in it, Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,029 tons, of an LD of 1096
If that hull was built to the absolute minimum N7 standard of 12:1, it would be a beam of 8.94, and "Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,346 tons, 96.1 %"
So, to reinforce this hull to the point it's viable in all waters/weathers, I'm going to say you need to add 317 tons below decks as "structural reinforcement". 11 of that can come from the guns.
I suspect that render this unviable, but it's a ship that never should have been built, so you're trying to fix a colossally flawed ship.
Quote from: Desertfox on June 03, 2020, 11:27:55 PM
Well historical submarines of the time period had ~600hp petrol engines, so I designed it around 4 of them downrated to increase reliability.
The ruling was that petrol engines are not listed under Engine Techs and so are not used in standard ships, but are specialty items only used in submarines and MTBs and require skilled maintenance folks.
QuoteThe ruling was that petrol engines are not listed under Engine Techs and so are not used in standard ships, but are specialty items only used in submarines and MTBs and require skilled maintenance folks.
Well that's the reason I chose them in the first place, a MTB and sub tender will have plenty of those folks around and the ship's fuel supply can be used for its MTBs as well. Instead of having to carry separate parts and technicians I can use the ones already on board.
QuoteB) Derating the engines slightly would only matter if you are attempting to go through waves at top speed. Plus it's a false economy, the Engines are still there and weigh the same, unless you're paying to put in new ones.
I actually kept the total engine weight, de-rating the engines was mainly to limit the top speed and therefore the stresses.
QuoteSo, to reinforce this hull to the point it's viable in all waters/weathers, I'm going to say you need to add 317 tons below decks as "structural reinforcement". 11 of that can come from the guns.
So, Im not aiming for the 100% solution but more of an 80% solution. I can't build 1,000t destroyers yet so a flawed ship is better than no ship. I guess an alternative would be to add bulges, but at that point the ships would go over 1,000t, what would be the ruling in that scenario?
Quote from: Desertfox on June 05, 2020, 06:58:24 PM
QuoteThe ruling was that petrol engines are not listed under Engine Techs and so are not used in standard ships, but are specialty items only used in submarines and MTBs and require skilled maintenance folks.
Well that's the reason I chose them in the first place, a MTB and sub tender will have plenty of those folks around and the ship's fuel supply can be used for its MTBs as well. Instead of having to carry separate parts and technicians I can use the ones already on board.
Is it a "Naval Propulsion:" engine?
If Yes - you can use it
If No...then no.
Using petrol engines for naval propulsion at this time fails to comply with our tech rules.
QuoteSo, to reinforce this hull to the point it's viable in all waters/weathers, I'm going to say you need to add 317 tons below decks as "structural reinforcement". 11 of that can come from the guns.
So, Im not aiming for the 100% solution but more of an 80% solution. I can't build 1,000t destroyers yet so a flawed ship is better than no ship. I guess an alternative would be to add bulges, but at that point the ships would go over 1,000t, what would be the ruling in that scenario?
[/quote]
Darman was not punished for having illegal legacy designs.
That consideration does not pass on to others.
The basic hull is flawed.
Bulges are typically thin skinned and lightly built. The means and purpose for which they were typically used, and the few cutaway drawings I've seen, did not include the types of longitudinal structures that would actually strengthen the basic hull. They ride on top of the 'skeleton' of the ship, not adding to it.
So bulges will not of themselves "fix" the ship.
You can use bulges to increase the ship beam so you fit in the needed reinforcement.
However if the ship exceeds 1000 tons, it is no longer under the destroyer architecture.
Now without petrol engines...
Jingei class, Japan Torpedo Boat Tender laid down 1913
Displacement:
2,099 t light; 2,158 t standard; 2,370 t normal; 2,539 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (9.70 / 10.26 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 15.24 m x (2.96 / 3.13 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 76 lbs / 34 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,009 ihp / 1,498 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 381 tons (50% coal)
Complement:
169 - 220
Cost:
£0.104 million / $0.415 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12 tons, 0.5 %
- Guns: 12 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 126 tons, 5.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 660 tons, 27.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 271 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,300 tons, 54.9 %
- Hull below water: 400 tons
- Hull above water: 70 tons
- On freeboard deck: 800 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,376 lbs / 2,892 Kg = 472.3 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.49
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.578
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 10.60 ft / 3.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 42.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.2 %
Waterplane Area: 10,667 Square feet or 991 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 49 lbs/sq ft or 239 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
30t - LR wireless + FC
40t - 20 Marines
30t - Camouflage
800t - Cranes and space for 10 x 40t TB or 4 x 100t Submarines
400t - 4,000t of Out-of-port resupply
A different tender, this one for the 500t submarines. No capability to transport them, but can support more tonnage and is cheaper.
Jingei II class, Japan Submarine Tender laid down 1913
Displacement:
1,537 t light; 1,584 t standard; 1,759 t normal; 1,898 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (9.00 / 9.46 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 12.19 m x (2.74 / 2.88 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 76 lbs / 34 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,339 ihp / 2,491 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 314 tons (50% coal)
Complement:
135 - 176
Cost:
£0.095 million / $0.381 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12 tons, 0.7 %
- Guns: 12 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 210 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 545 tons, 31.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 221 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 770 tons, 43.8 %
- Hull below water: 500 tons
- On freeboard deck: 240 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,605 lbs / 1,635 Kg = 267.1 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.58
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 10.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.57
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.585
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.48 ft / 3.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.4 %
Waterplane Area: 8,533 Square feet or 793 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 47 lbs/sq ft or 230 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.13
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
30t - LR wireless + FC
240t - Increased accommodations and spare
500t - 5,000t of Out-of-port resupply
Spy ship, disguised as a schooner. Hidden gun for self-defense can be replaced by twin 14" torpedo tubes.
I really do think we should reconsider allowing petrol engines for certain ship types. For this ship the engine is mostly a backup and at under 600hp similar in size to sub engines of the time period.
Boat #13, Japan Intelligence Gathering laid down 1914
Displacement:
199 t light; 204 t standard; 214 t normal; 223 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(151.23 ft / 150.00 ft) x 20.00 ft x (5.00 / 5.15 ft)
(46.10 m / 45.72 m) x 6.10 m x (1.52 / 1.57 m)
Armament:
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1914 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 5 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 518 ihp / 386 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 19 tons (50% coal)
Complement:
27 - 36
Cost:
£0.015 million / $0.062 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 1.0 %
- Guns: 2 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 32 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 66 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 16 tons, 7.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 98 tons, 45.7 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- On freeboard deck: 79 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
433 lbs / 197 Kg = 108.3 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.504
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m, 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Average freeboard: 5.24 ft / 1.60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.8 %
Waterplane Area: 1,921 Square feet or 178 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 117 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
10t - Two-mast schooner sail rigging
25t - LR Wireless
25t - Experimental Radar
20t - Out-of-port resupply
5t - Spy stuff
4t - Camouflage
8t - Electric Motor
A fast transport capable of landing troops without port facilities.
Toph Maru, Japan Fast Transport laid down 1913
Displacement:
400 t light; 411 t standard; 442 t normal; 466 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.40 / 5.63 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.23 m x (1.65 / 1.72 m)
Armament:
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, forward deck forward
Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 5 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,616 shp / 1,205 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 55 tons
Complement:
47 - 62
Cost:
£0.026 million / $0.103 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 0.5 %
- Guns: 2 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 63 tons, 14.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 157 tons, 35.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 41 tons, 9.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 176 tons, 39.9 %
- Hull below water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
- Above deck: 10 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,222 lbs / 554 Kg = 305.4 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.36 ft / 2.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.9 %
Waterplane Area: 3,699 Square feet or 344 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 142 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 152 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.23
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
10t - Spare
150t - 150 Marines or supplies
16t - Electric Drive
Just realized my scouts where 0.2% away from being classified as auxiliaries. Dropped a bit of armor, added some hull strength to get back up to 1.0 (no cruiser tech) and now they are a lot cheaper.
Kaibokan class, Japan Scout laid down 1913
Displacement:
799 t light; 827 t standard; 944 t normal; 1,037 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(290.00 ft / 290.00 ft) x 31.00 ft x (7.50 / 8.05 ft)
(88.39 m / 88.39 m) x 9.45 m x (2.29 / 2.45 m)
Armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 20.0 cal guns - 19.94lbs / 9.04kg shells, 150 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 115 lbs / 52 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.50" / 13 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,347 shp / 6,227 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 2,900nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 210 tons
Complement:
84 - 110
Cost:
£0.085 million / $0.342 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 1.7 %
- Guns: 16 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 327 tons, 34.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 382 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 145 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 72 tons, 7.6 %
- Hull below water: 10 tons
- On freeboard deck: 35 tons
- Above deck: 27 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,003 lbs / 455 Kg = 16.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.80 ft / 3.29 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.6 %
Waterplane Area: 5,936 Square feet or 551 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 43 lbs/sq ft or 208 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.47
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
27t - 1908 FC & Experimental Radar
25t - LR Wireless
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
Im going to ask for a judgement under the last provision of the Aux rules, as this feels like a cheep warship to me.
QuoteMercantile Standards/Auxiliaries
A ship in government service may be built to mercantile standards if armament and armor take up no more than 2% of the ship's weight at normal displacement. Such ships could include colliers, transports, survey ships, and others.
In this case, the cash and BP cost of construction is quartered. This also pertains to upkeep, future repair, refit, and scrapping of the vessel. The time required to build, refit, repair, or scrap the ship remains unchanged, however.
Moderators have may require a ship to be built to normal military standards if they believe that the intent of a design is to produce a cheap warship.
Its not a warship at all, guns are only for self-defense, and the 90mm ones are signal rocket launchers, not actually for use against other ships. Its primary role is to be an observation balloon platform.
I feel that the addition of Fire Control and the balloon push this over the 2% weight limit for armament.
I can see the point about the FC, which can be easily remedied by dumping the armor, but the balloon is unarmed and unpowered, it's more "extra boats" than armament.
Next batch of destroyers, designed primarily to hunt down and sink other destroyers. Drops a pair of torpedo tubes from the Sakuras, but adds another 5" gun, four 2" gatlings, fire control, and a significant boost in range.
Izokaze class, Japan Destroyer laid down 1914
Displacement:
750 t light; 794 t standard; 892 t normal; 970 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(303.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 29.00 ft x (9.20 / 9.72 ft)
(92.35 m / 91.44 m) x 8.84 m x (2.80 / 2.96 m)
Armament:
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
1 raised mount
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 301 lbs / 136 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.50" / 13 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,682 shp / 13,936 Kw = 30.10 kts
Range 2,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 177 tons
Complement:
81 - 106
Cost:
£0.131 million / $0.525 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 52 tons, 5.9 %
- Guns: 52 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 6 tons, 0.7 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.6 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 445 tons, 49.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 230 tons, 25.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 142 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 17 tons, 1.9 %
- On freeboard deck: 17 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
234 lbs / 106 Kg = 3.7 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.390 / 0.402
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 23.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 32.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.61 ft / 3.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.7 %
Waterplane Area: 5,319 Square feet or 494 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 133 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.43
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
5t - 1908 FC
12t - 6 x 18" Torpedoes
Just drawings of the two Jingei class tenders.
Quote from: snip on June 16, 2020, 06:55:01 PM
Im going to ask for a judgement under the last provision of the Aux rules, as this feels like a cheep warship to me.
A) I don't always have time to look over ship threads, so if folks want me to actually chime in, please PM.
B) I presume referring to this is referring to the above
Quote
Just realized my scouts where 0.2% away from being classified as auxiliaries. Dropped a bit of armor, added some hull strength to get back up to 1.0 (no cruiser tech) and now they are a lot cheaper.
Kaibokan class, Japan Scout laid down 1913
it's 24knots, multiple guns, and originally redesigned from a scout.
The misc weight isn't some amorphous "cargo" , "fleet support", "net tending gear" ,
but keyed to replace warships.
Even without Foxy's own words, which classifies it's primary role as a scout- a military role- it's not a clear auxiliary.
So no, no mercantile here.
C) I'll say up front - a design ruled non mercantile can not be redeemed by small changes.
intent of a design is to produce a cheap warship has been established.
C) as a side note, I decided quite some time ago, if a vessel isn't properly paid for, then it will have
at best only the effect for which funds have been expended. So 1 of these would wind up being equal to 1/4..or maybe 1/6 of a very small craft on scout. I'd probably just roll a d4 or d6 to see if it "worked" that time. So if these 'slip through the cracks' of review, it not to the nation's advantage.
QuoteC) I'll say up front - a design ruled non mercantile can not be redeemed by small changes. intent of a design is to produce a cheap warship has been established.
I have a serious issue with this. The whole point of posting ships here is so problems and issues can be identified and corrected. Whats the point then if a design can not be fixed? If I make a troop transport with say 2.1% of tonnage in armament, I can no longer go back and fix it? Have to go back and design a new one from scratch?
QuoteEven without Foxy's own words, which classifies it's primary role as a scout- a military role- it's not a clear auxiliary.
Technically speaking don't all auxiliaries have "military roles"? Dispatch boats, infantry landing ships, armed merchant cruisers, tenders, minesweepers, those are all military roles. Where do we draw the line? Heck plenty of dedicated military ships have been built or converted from merchants, the early escort carriers, Q ships, and entire classes of destroyer escorts. Plenty of clear auxiliaries such as troop transports and even merchants where also heavily armed for self-defense (ie MACs).
There are clear examples of mercantile "radar pickets", that is an auxiliary role:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian-class_radar_picket_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian-class_radar_picket_ship)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_night_fighter_direction_vessel_Togo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_night_fighter_direction_vessel_Togo)
This design is basically a picket ship, if the combination of speed and armament is too much, that can be easily modified, but it falls under the rules and is a class of ship that was in use as auxiliaries in OTL. It shouldn't be penalized for being a creative solution to a real problem. I do want to point out that the base ship was the Uji class which is an auxiliary under the current rules.
Reading all of the posts related to this ship in question, my opinion is the following:
1) Per the strictest interpretation of the rules, yes, the ship is legal as an auxiliary.
2) Per the name of the ship, a "Scout", this sounds like a 'hip pocket warship' as is laid out in the auxiliary rules as something that can be invalidated.
I agree that the rules have a purpose. While things like AMCs are legal, it would be perfectly possible for me to make full-up cruisers with circumnavigation capability that could easily fall under 'auxiliary' when in fact the only auxiliary purpose is literally their manufacture.
Now, for this particular ship, and this one only, I have some concerns with the implications of the name. The 'scout' role in ship terminology tends to be an indication that it's a 'scout cruiser'. And a 24kt ship would possibly fall within a cruiser, though in 1913 it's a bit slow for it. Then I look at the armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 20.0 cal guns - 19.94lbs / 9.04kg shells, 150 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 115 lbs / 52 kg
This armament would be hard pressed to fend off one of my 500t Destroyers, much less anything that would fall within the cruiser range or a 'modern' destroyer. It's almost like a Flower-class corvette on a slightly larger scale, which is a ship historically built to commercial standards.
I might propose then that it is principally the implications of the title of the ship that are more problematic than the ship itself. This is where I would ask more for clarification.
Is this ship a fleet scouting element, which it could do, albeit rather poorly, given it's top speed of 24kts? Or is this ship a picket boat meant to be able to transit a seaway?
If the former, then I must heartily agree with Snip that this ship would be a warship.
If the latter, then I might concede to Kirk's discretion that this ship is an auxiliary, though I would note to Foxy that a picket boat of this size built to commercial rather than military standards is apt to suffer far more greatly to shellfire than a ship of it's size built to military standards due to the reduced scantlings and compartmentalization that comes with a commercial vessel. I certainly would not like it's chances against even a single well-handled destroyer of any size, or several Type-A TBs with 7cm guns.
Several things
A) there is difference between a design being ruled non-mercantile, and a design being mercantile but out of compliance. A tender with 2.1% armament could be mercantile, but out of compliance.
B) Yes, the reason we're specifying certain auxiliaries is because we expect them to have some military purpose.
However the mercantile allowance is specifically not automatic. Ships in compliance with the 2% rule can specifically be found to not qualify. That is clearly built into that rule.
This may also be a case of debating words. I seem to be using Military as
C) A sharp fine hull, cramped machinery, faster speed than a big chunk of the warships, these are not promising indicators of non-warship. It "looks" alot like a Escort.
D) while a matter of what fits under 2% displacement, the armament is fairly robust. Alone that would be ok.
E) I really hadn't considered if FC should fit under weapons/armor, but the rule specifies
Quoteif armament and armor
, and I think I will keep to that specification. In this case the weight of the fire control is a typo.
F) I should note the question here is not if such vessels were historically built to mercantile standards. Many Destroyer Escorts and Escort carriers were built to mercantile standards historically. However the Mercantile rule in N7 was worded in a way that would not allow them. If something is a warship, expect to pay full price.
G) Had the ship been termed a 'Picket' ship , then C & D probably but not guaranteed to have been sufficiently warlike to suggest a smaller slower vessel would more appropriate. If it looks like a DE and floats like a DE...
H) In this case I was indeed biased some by the stated design evolution and class name. Scouting is a military role. This is not an auxiliary.
I) As for the Uiji class exploration, I believe I discussed those with you a bit before allowing them. We placed them just "in bounds".
I) Since the original post, I have also had musings regarding the balloon.
Is military observation an auxiliary role?
Then there's a slippery slope.
Also, what's the harm of a 10t Balloon?
What about a follow on vessel with a seaplane.
Or two?...or twelve?
But they are unarmed !
oh, but we want to strap a MG on them- it's only 15lbs, and go shoot at subs..
So is a seaplane carrier an auxiliary?
Could we then convert the seaplane carrier to a regular carrier ala
Langley?
The primary goal of carriers was reconnaissance and spotting for the fleet. Is that Aux?
The scout planes became replaced with ones with a combat role, same carrier....but now not Aux?
It's quite a can of worms.
I think an unarmed balloon tethered to a nice fat slow ship is probably fine
I think a seaplane is a weapon and has to fit under the 2%.
How is this? Dropped all the armament. It is now officially a "rescue ship" and will be painted as such, balloon is to "spot sailors in water". In a battle situation it would be used as a rescue ship, but that would be its secondary role. It would also have a tertiary role of dispatch ship.
Kaibokan class, Japan Rescue Ship/Balloon Picket laid down 1913
Displacement:
804 t light; 824 t standard; 944 t normal; 1,040 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(290.00 ft / 290.00 ft) x 31.00 ft x (7.50 / 8.07 ft)
(88.39 m / 88.39 m) x 9.45 m x (2.29 / 2.46 m)
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,347 shp / 6,227 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 217 tons
Complement:
84 - 110
Cost:
£0.081 million / $0.323 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 327 tons, 34.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 392 tons, 41.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 140 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 85 tons, 9.0 %
- Hull below water: 10 tons
- Hull above water: 25 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,180 lbs / 535 Kg = 10.9 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Aft deck: 0.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 10.82 ft / 3.30 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.5 %
Waterplane Area: 5,936 Square feet or 551 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 43 lbs/sq ft or 208 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t - Experimental Radar
25t - LR Wireless
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
10t - Rescue Boats
5t - First Aid Facilities
And a drawing of the Kaibokan class with other auxiliaries.
Are Observation Balloons considered outside the Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier Architecture tree?
I said this:
QuoteC) I'll say up front - a design ruled non mercantile can not be redeemed by small changes. intent of a design is to produce a cheap warship has been established.
I wanted to be clear that small changes were not sufficient.
I didn't want to play the "made minor alteration, is that enough" game over and over.
You noted it and needed clarification.
I provided that.
So you said this:
Quote from: Desertfox on June 21, 2020, 09:14:14 PM
How is this? Dropped all the armament. It is now officially a "rescue ship" and will be painted as such, balloon is to "spot sailors in water". In a battle situation it would be used as a rescue ship, but that would be its secondary role. It would also have a tertiary role of dispatch ship.
Basically, you unbolted 16 tons on deck. Replaced it with on-deck equipment.
Replaced fire control with a "experimental radar"....
oh and change the rationale from Scout to Rescue.
Do you want to take a guess as to the answer?
I made my statement for exactly that reason.
I'm actually a little insulted.
It's the same darn hull and machinery, all you did was change your explanation and unbolt some things.
You can turn around and bolt them right back on with a basic refit.
What type of shenanigans is that?
This type of thing frustrates ME and YOU.
YOU can have exactly the ship you want. Just pay full priceYou want to a way to pay 1/4 price: Then at this point I would suggest that you build yourself something that looks like a nice bulky slow merchant hull and slap the same armament on it, tow your balloon with that.
9.35 LB, 0.490BC, 24knots, is a destroyer hull with a smaller engine.
It's not going to cut it.
At this point, I think there should be a clean break and a clearly different design.
Try something like this : <6.5:1 and 18knots, <=2% armament.
Quote from: Desertfox on June 14, 2020, 02:20:13 AM
A fast transport capable of landing troops without port facilities.
The degree you need a port is governed by your tech level, not your ship design. The higher your amphibious tech, the less dependent you are.
The key stage is getting to the x-lighters and designed troop transports. Those will magically appear among your deployment point.
However I will strongly stress that landing rates and amount of supply at a port facility will exceed that of over the beach until you get to Mulberry harbors.
Even then, they will have limited capacity.
So folks are free to design transports.
There is some utility, such as the Japanese landings on Korean islands, which will be taken into consideration.
Quote from: Desertfox on June 14, 2020, 01:52:12 AM
Spy ship, disguised as a schooner. Hidden gun for self-defense can be replaced by twin 14" torpedo tubes.
I really do think we should reconsider allowing petrol engines for certain ship types. For this ship the engine is mostly a backup and at under 600hp similar in size to sub engines of the time period
Snip's specific design goal was simplicity. Strip out the more complicated elements. Don't endlessly specify.
The result is still complex, but much less so.
Adding furhter complexity back in for minor uses is unlikely and will be done on the basis of pressing needs.
As such petrol engines is unlikely. Diesel engines, much safer, are on the horizon.
Quote from: snip on June 21, 2020, 10:57:13 PM
Are Observation Balloons considered outside the Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier Architecture tree?
That's a bit of what I was struggling with earlier.
Trying to figure out where this slippery slope of interpretation goes.
But Aircraft/Seaplanes are not Balloons.
Balloons are are covered under Aircraft baseline.
I know there were tethered Zeppelin experiments which were not a great success.
But Hot air balloons are collapsible.
Obviously it couldn't be towed at speed, the pitch/yaw going through waves would whip the cable and likely destroy the balloon or break the cable.
But in fair weather, as an observation platform... I could see use.
So at this point I plan to stick to the wording of the techs and let the experimentation go forward.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what the problem is, are we just NOT allowed to build fast auxiliaries? Because, those did exist in OTL, some of them (and even civilian banana boats) even used actual destroyer hulls. Ocean liners were consistently faster than warships and even the first MTBs started life as civilian speed boats.
Rescue ships are well established auxiliaries that where usually based on DE hulls and I just had a convoy get half sunk and had to stop actual warships to conduct rescue operations. And the reason I went that way was it was a legitimate IC way of not having it get caught and sunk like the Ujis did or how a slow 18 knot armed freighter would. Is it IC shenanigans? Yes they are, I'm not trying to hide that. But OOC, I took the guns off because they are detrimental to the ships goal. I have zero intentions on arming this ship, if you want to slap a mod ban on rearming this ship during a refit, I'd be perfectly fine with that. The whole point of calling it a "rescue ship" is so it doesn't need weapons. Could it be refitted into a pseudo-destroyer, probably, but it would cost almost the same as a new-built one for half the capability. Now that would be a waste of resources.
As for radar, that was on the original design. The only Japanese ships with radar are auxiliaries, since at this time it is still very much unproven technology. So its better to test it on an auxiliary than on a front-line combat ship that needs every ton accounted for, same as the Parthians testing turbo-electric drives on the Whales.
About Kaibokan.
It is clearly a ship to light the fleet with a 24kts speed, a balloon, and rescue boats (after the battle).
He is a wing auxiliary which plays the role of scout cruiser.
Topic 1.Quote from: Desertfox on June 22, 2020, 10:31:28 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what the problem is, are we just NOT allowed to build fast auxiliaries? Because, those did exist in OTL, some of them (and even civilian banana boats) even used actual destroyer hulls. Ocean liners were consistently faster than warships and even the first MTBs started life as civilian speed boats.
Using the Auxiliary rule is not automatic. As the rule states, it is explicitly subject to review.
If it seems like the type of vessel that can be a cheap warship - or easily refitted to that, or able to work replace one in some role-then it will be at risk of being disallowed as an auxiliary.
The reason that clause in the Auxiliaries is there is to keep a strong barrier against blurring that line and allowing cheap warships.
That is a deliberate game design choice.
That means some vessels that were historically built as mercantile construction - sloops/corvettes/destroyer escorts/escort carriers...are not mercantile or commercial construction here.
You can build them, you do not get a discount to build them.
Quote from: TacCovert4 on June 21, 2020, 06:34:58 PM
It's almost like a Flower-class corvette on a slightly larger scale, which is a ship historically built to commercial standards.
Quote from: Jefgte on June 22, 2020, 03:53:20 PM
He is a wing auxiliary which plays the role of scout cruiser.
Quote from: snip on June 16, 2020, 06:55:01 PM
Im going to ask for a judgement under the last provision of the Aux rules, as this feels like a cheep warship to me.
You want a liner that goes 24knots and displaces 20,000 tons... keep the weapons and armor under 2% and we'll talk.
That's a fast Auxiliary.
A 150ton trawler could tow the 10 ton balloon at 16knots. That would be a mercantile build.
You want something that looks like an escort, has a large chunk of displacement in it's top of the line engines with a tiny bit of Misc weight dedicated to other things? No
Topic 2Rescue Ships
The problem here is you presented the design one way. It was ruled warship-like and disallowed.
You were specifically told minor changes would not be sufficient.
You unbolted some guns, bolted on some compensating weight, renamed it and presented it again.
Since those certainly count as minor changes. It is still ruled warship-like.
Topic 3The Auxiliaries in N7 almost did not exist.
As I recall, Snip (sorry if I get this wrong) wanted to delete the category and handwave all that in the name of KISS.
I thought there was an important role for if a nation had invested in a fleet train, colliers, oilers, amphibious ships.
Snip shot down most of that, but saw the value of the fleet train...in a very simple form. So we have the Fleet Supply.
And he tried to ensure that they would not be a way for folks to make cheap warships.... wether upfront, or by later conversion.
Topic 4.Quote from: snip on June 21, 2020, 10:57:13 PM
Are Observation Balloons considered outside the Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier Architecture tree?
My first response was basically a hot air balloon is not..the same.. as an Aircraft as it has no motor or skeleton. Not I did not say wings or self powered flight. So Zeppelins, Gyrocopters, etc still are aircraft.
Aircraft and Seaplanes it obviously is not, so Aircraft/Seaplane technology would not apply.
Today I was reconsidering my prior answer.
A Balloon is a big floaty gas bag...that's a craft...that goes in the air...
It actually appears as a baseline technology...under Aircraft.
Which would make the balloon an aircraft.
Therefore something carrying it, readying it for action, deploying it, recovering it, etc. .an aircraft carrier...
I think that's what Snip was getting at.
I just have problems with that interpretation, it seems so far from airplane operations.
The skills and training needed to launch and recover the balloon are extremely different than flying planes on/off ships, or recovering them from water.
So I'm inclined to say hot air balloons, while covered under Aircraft tech, do not need the specialized aircraft handling skills one associates with carrier ops and so do not fall under aircraft carriers.
I'm willing to be told I'm wrong.
Topic last
QuoteParthians testing turbo-electric drives on the Whales.
The irony here is the build schedule on those has gone so over time, that most of the electric drive knowledge is coming from the Parthian Minesweepers.
Which I found aren't in a minelaying category. I should make one and move them, as I pay full price for the MSWs.
If the biggest issue is, the potential for future conversions, why not add a simple addendum to the rules? "Ships build to mercantile standards, can not increase the percentage of weight dedicated to weapons/armor during a refit/refurb". It would ban, merchant ship conversions into AMCs, but it sounds that that was the intent of the rule in the first place, even if some fleet support ships already qualify as AMCs.
Half the size, 4 knots slower.
Kaibokan, Japan Rescue/Balloon Observation laid down 1913
Displacement:
401 t light; 411 t standard; 499 t normal; 569 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (6.40 / 7.10 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.23 m x (1.95 / 2.17 m)
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 3,287 shp / 2,452 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 157 tons
Complement:
52 - 68
Cost:
£0.035 million / $0.140 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 129 tons, 25.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 188 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 97 tons, 19.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 84 tons, 16.8 %
- On freeboard deck: 84 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
940 lbs / 426 Kg = 8.7 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.505 / 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 0.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.42 ft / 2.87 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.4 %
Waterplane Area: 3,477 Square feet or 323 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 167 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.12
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t - Experimental Radar
25t - LR Wireless
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
14t - Rescue Equipment/Facilities
And an updated minesweeper design.
No 1, Japan Minesweeper laid down 1913
Displacement:
120 t light; 123 t standard; 141 t normal; 156 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(140.00 ft / 140.00 ft) x 24.00 ft x (3.00 / 3.23 ft)
(42.67 m / 42.67 m) x 7.32 m x (0.91 / 0.98 m)
Armament:
1 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal gun - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1913 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
4 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4 lbs / 2 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, plus batteries,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 446 ihp / 333 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 33 tons
Complement:
19 - 26
Cost:
£0.008 million / $0.032 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.7 %
- Guns: 1 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 21 tons, 15.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 66 tons, 46.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 21 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 32 tons, 22.7 %
- Hull below water: 5 tons
- On freeboard deck: 27 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
539 lbs / 244 Kg = 134.7 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 9.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 11.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Average freeboard: 5.80 ft / 1.77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.0 %
Waterplane Area: 2,219 Square feet or 206 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 184 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 117 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.58
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t - Minesweeping gear
5t - Electric drive
Im not sure we have ever covered batteries as a engine type. I'm opposed to them being a checkbox-only option, but would like to find a way to include them.
I thought that's how turbo-electric drives where supposed to be?
Updated drawings of the Kaibokan and minesweepers, plus the junk spy ship:
You did the Electric Drives part right, Im talking about the addition of batteries into the Engine Type field.
Well it turns out that adding batteries decreases engine weight by about 25%, that is weird...
Quote from: Desertfox on June 22, 2020, 10:49:29 PM
Well it turns out that adding batteries decreases engine weight by about 25%, that is weird...
I suspect that the batteries in this instance are being considered as a booster rather than a stand alone method.
The turbines are probably cruising speed plus some capacity. In normal operating conditions they charge the batteries. When the ship goes ahead flank, the batteries are fed into the power supply to boost amperage for maximum speed.
In practice it would mean the ship has a very short sprint range of probably just a couple of hours before the battery bank is depleted and power drop would be substantial.
A special version of the Izokazes, 4 of the 24 will be built to this design. It drops one gun, a set of torpedo tubes, and two 2" rotaries, to carry an observation balloon. They will serve as pseudo-destroyer leaders.
Izokaze class, Japan Destroyer laid down 1914
Displacement:
750 t light; 787 t standard; 912 t normal; 1,011 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(302.64 ft / 300.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (10.10 / 10.81 ft)
(92.25 m / 91.44 m) x 8.23 m x (3.08 / 3.29 m)
Armament:
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 213 lbs / 97 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.50" / 13 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,498 shp / 13,799 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 3,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 225 tons
Complement:
82 - 107
Cost:
£0.128 million / $0.514 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 37 tons, 4.1 %
- Guns: 37 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.4 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 459 tons, 50.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 217 tons, 23.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 161 tons, 17.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 32 tons, 3.5 %
- On freeboard deck: 32 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
236 lbs / 107 Kg = 3.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.390 / 0.404
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.7 %
Waterplane Area: 4,952 Square feet or 460 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
4t - 1908 FC
8t - 4 x 18" Torpedoes
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
Quote from: Desertfox on June 22, 2020, 09:57:10 PM
Half the size, 4 knots slower.
Kaibokan, Japan Rescue/Balloon Observation laid down 1913
Fox,
This discussion has been spread out over several back and forth posts
The last focus was on the physical parameters of the ship.
Which is what you've somewhat changed. Now 20 knots, LB 7, BC 0.5.
The other aspect was your original stated intent was something degunned from a warship scout to a non warship scout.
Which you've relabeled. Unfortunately, if my task is- as the rule indicates - broad enough to encompass intent.
I'm sorry, I bet you're ticked off and frustrated, and that's not the result I want.
I tried to avoid this result by specifying these things
in the first place so we wouldn't go this route of incremental "is this enough" change- which was almost certain to be frustrating.
But you did the incremental route anyhow.
I included a clear statements in the past to specifically indicate
the level of changes necessary to meet that goal.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on June 22, 2020, 12:28:03 AM
I said this:
QuoteC) I'll say up front - a design ruled non mercantile can not be redeemed by small changes. intent of a design is to produce a cheap warship has been established.
I wanted to be clear that small changes were not sufficient.
I didn't want to play the "made minor alteration, is that enough" game over and over.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on June 22, 2020, 12:28:03 AM
At this point, I think there should be a clean break and a clearly different design.
Try something like this : <6.5:1 and 18knots, <=2% armament.
So - easy question...
Is this ship within that?
Kaibokan, Japan Rescue/Balloon Observation/Minesweeper laid down 1913
Displacement:
300 t light; 308 t standard; 387 t normal; 450 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(170.00 ft / 170.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.90 / 6.66 ft)
(51.82 m / 51.82 m) x 8.23 m x (1.80 / 2.03 m)
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,589 shp / 1,185 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 143 tons
Complement:
43 - 56
Cost:
£0.021 million / $0.084 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 62 tons, 16.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 146 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 87 tons, 22.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 92 tons, 23.8 %
- On freeboard deck: 92 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,268 lbs / 575 Kg = 11.7 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.2 %
Waterplane Area: 2,940 Square feet or 273 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 179 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 157 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.59
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
25t - Experimental Radar
25t - LR Wireless
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
10t - Rescue Equipment/Facilities
10t - Minesweeping Gear
2t - Signaling Rockets
During the war the Japanese Fleet was commanded from the diplomatic ship Tatsuta Maru at the fleet anchorage. The use of the ship proved successful but tied the ship down from its regular duties. In order to free the two diplomatic ships for their regular duties, the Japanese fleet will build two dedicated ships who will do double duty as hospital ships.
Tachibana Maru, Japan Hospital Ship/C&C laid down 1914
Displacement:
2,901 t light; 2,972 t standard; 3,561 t normal; 4,033 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(340.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (14.10 / 15.53 ft)
(103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 15.24 m x (4.30 / 4.73 m)
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 10,927 shp / 8,152 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 7,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,060 tons
Complement:
229 - 299
Cost:
£0.204 million / $0.817 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 421 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,040 tons, 29.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 660 tons, 18.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,440 tons, 40.4 %
- Hull below water: 400 tons
- Hull above water: 500 tons
- On freeboard deck: 250 tons
- Above deck: 290 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,951 lbs / 3,153 Kg = 64.4 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.535
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.36 ft / 4.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.3 %
Waterplane Area: 11,537 Square feet or 1,072 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 61 lbs/sq ft or 297 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily
200t - Flag accommodations
50t - 2 x long-range wireless
25t - Experimental Radar
25t - Extra navigation equipment
200t - 4 x 20 ton rescue boats
40t - Observation Balloon
500t - 100 bed hospital
290t - Out-of-port resupply
110t - Electric Drive
Combining high-priority military command and control functionality and hospital facilities is an interesting choice that Im sure the international community will be thrilled with.
Definitely a grey area, but very hard to prove, officially they will be hospital ships and foreign dignitaries will be most welcome to tour their facilities, of course there wont be anything incriminatory onboard in peacetime.
Potential design for 1914. She would be designed to use the guns originally ordered for but not used by the Thonburi class CDS. Capable of taking down armored and escort cruisers and older pre-dreads on a raider role. She's basically a smaller Maya with 10" guns (Kongo layout).
Owari class, Japan Heavy Cruiser laid down 1914
Displacement:
11,001 t light; 11,655 t standard; 13,023 t normal; 14,118 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 70.00 ft x (22.40 / 23.83 ft)
(175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 21.34 m x (6.83 / 7.26 m)
Armament:
8 - 10.00" / 254 mm 45.0 cal guns - 504.26lbs / 228.73kg shells, 143 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1914 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,927 lbs / 2,235 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.00" / 178 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 52,738 shp / 39,343 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 7,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,463 tons
Complement:
609 - 792
Cost:
£1.387 million / $5.546 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,053 tons, 8.1 %
- Guns: 1,053 tons, 8.1 %
Armour: 2,913 tons, 22.4 %
- Belts: 1,320 tons, 10.1 %
- Armament: 773 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 736 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 83 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,032 tons, 15.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,743 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,023 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 260 tons, 2.0 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 110 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,126 lbs / 7,768 Kg = 34.3 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.510 / 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.84 ft / 5.44 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.7 %
Waterplane Area: 26,829 Square feet or 2,492 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 649 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
110t for 1908 FC
50t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
100t for Improved Damage Control
Quote from: Desertfox on July 07, 2020, 06:38:34 PM
Potential design for 1914. She would be designed to use the guns originally ordered for but not used by the Thonburi class CDS. Capable of taking down armored and escort cruisers and older pre-dreads on a raider role. She's basically a smaller Maya with 10" guns (Kongo layout).
Owari class, Japan Heavy Cruiser laid down 1914
I like 10" guns...dunno why, but I do.
I like the Kongo layout.
The ship reminds me a slimmer, less well armored version of my 1909
Asdar class AC.
I don't get why it's got 3" guns instead of more 5" for a more unified secondary which hits harder...and further.
My Asdars have 120mm & 60mm, but the time for the 60mm is past...I just haven't unbolted them.
Volume of fire! But yes especially for this ship, which isn't expected to run into massed MTB strikes, I should get rid of them.
27knts feels a little slow, and 84% of normal length on the belt means she cant really take a pounding. The 27knts kinda makes sense given the role, and getting it up to 30knts is expensive. How much does it cost to get a longer belt out of her?
Longer belt, couple more 5" guns, no 3" but four 2" gatlings.
Owari class, Japan Battlecruiser laid down 1914
Displacement:
11,001 t light; 11,655 t standard; 13,023 t normal; 14,118 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 70.00 ft x (22.40 / 23.83 ft)
(175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 21.34 m x (6.83 / 7.26 m)
Armament:
8 - 10.00" / 254 mm 45.0 cal guns - 504.26lbs / 228.73kg shells, 141 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1914 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,965 lbs / 2,252 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.00" / 178 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 52,738 shp / 39,343 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 7,700nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,463 tons
Complement:
609 - 792
Cost:
£1.389 million / $5.556 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,058 tons, 8.1 %
- Guns: 1,058 tons, 8.1 %
Armour: 2,991 tons, 23.0 %
- Belts: 1,413 tons, 10.8 %
- Armament: 777 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 718 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 83 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,032 tons, 15.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,756 tons, 36.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,022 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 165 tons, 1.3 %
- On freeboard deck: 55 tons
- Above deck: 110 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,297 lbs / 7,846 Kg = 34.6 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.510 / 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 32.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Aft deck: 33.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.90 ft / 5.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.7 %
Waterplane Area: 26,829 Square feet or 2,492 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 651 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
110t for 1908 FC
55t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
A variant of the Toph Maru class, adds another triple 2" Gatling aft, an observation balloon, minesweeping gear, and replaces the troop and transport capabilities with tender facilities. Allows them to support small amounts of ships in undeveloped areas, including two flotillas (20) of MTBs.
Toph Maru II, Japan Multi-purpose Tender laid down 1913
Displacement:
400 t light; 412 t standard; 442 t normal; 465 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.40 / 5.62 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.23 m x (1.65 / 1.71 m)
Armament:
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 24 lbs / 11 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,616 shp / 1,205 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 53 tons
Complement:
47 - 62
Cost:
£0.026 million / $0.106 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 1.0 %
- Guns: 4 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 4 tons, 1.0 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 63 tons, 14.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 158 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 42 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 170 tons, 38.5 %
- Hull below water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,183 lbs / 537 Kg = 295.8 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.36 ft / 2.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.9 %
Waterplane Area: 3,699 Square feet or 344 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 141 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 155 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
20t - Observation Balloon
10t - Minesweeping Gear
120t - Out-of-port Resupply
20t - Electric Drive
A variant of the Izokaze class destroyer, replaces one set of torpedo tubes with an additional gun, designed to serve more as a colonial gunboat than a destroyer.
Kaba class, Japan Colonial Destroyer laid down 1914
Displacement:
750 t light; 793 t standard; 903 t normal; 991 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(302.64 ft / 300.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (10.00 / 10.62 ft)
(92.25 m / 91.44 m) x 8.23 m x (3.05 / 3.24 m)
Armament:
5 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 125 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 339 lbs / 154 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.40" / 10 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,432 shp / 14,496 Kw = 30.40 kts
Range 3,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 198 tons
Complement:
82 - 107
Cost:
£0.135 million / $0.539 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 59 tons, 6.5 %
- Guns: 59 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 452 tons, 50.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 221 tons, 24.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 152 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 1.6 %
- On freeboard deck: 14 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
219 lbs / 100 Kg = 3.5 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.390 / 0.403
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 21.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 34.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 11.05 ft / 3.37 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.7 %
Waterplane Area: 4,952 Square feet or 460 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 133 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
6t - 1908 FC
8t - 4 x 18" Torpedoes
Update to the minesweeper design. Its 20 tons more expensive, but its faster, longer-range, can self-deploy to unimproved areas, and adds a balloon to aid in mine sweeping.
No 1, Japan Minesweeper laid down 1914
Displacement:
200 t light; 206 t standard; 225 t normal; 240 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(151.59 ft / 150.00 ft) x 21.00 ft x (5.00 / 5.25 ft)
(46.20 m / 45.72 m) x 6.40 m x (1.52 / 1.60 m)
Armament:
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 24 lbs / 11 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,173 shp / 875 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 33 tons
Complement:
28 - 37
Cost:
£0.019 million / $0.075 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 4 tons, 1.9 %
Machinery: 45 tons, 20.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 83 tons, 36.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 25 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 67 tons, 29.8 %
- Hull below water: 32 tons
- On freeboard deck: 35 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
398 lbs / 180 Kg = 99.5 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.9 %
Waterplane Area: 2,099 Square feet or 195 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 132 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.22
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
20t - Out-of-port Resupply
10t - Observation Balloon
25t - Minesweeping Gear
12t - Electric Drive
One of the four Yodos suffered extensive fire and small caliber gunfire damage to the upper-works at Tablas Strait. Since the Yodos have proven to be not quite good at their job, during repairs (1914) she will instead be converted to an aircraft trial ship. The main armament will be removed and replaced with a flying off platform forward and crane and facilities aft for two aircraft (Curtiss Model F?).
Wakamiya, Japan Aircraft Cruiser laid down 1906
Displacement:
1,524 t light; 1,565 t standard; 1,834 t normal; 2,049 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(330.00 ft / 330.00 ft) x 34.00 ft x (13.00 / 14.06 ft)
(100.58 m / 100.58 m) x 10.36 m x (3.96 / 4.29 m)
Armament:
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1906 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 54 lbs / 25 kg
Armour:
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,548 shp / 10,107 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 4,200nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 484 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
139 - 182
Cost:
£0.181 million / $0.723 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 0.5 %
- Guns: 9 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 34 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 34 tons, 1.8 %
Machinery: 890 tons, 48.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 506 tons, 27.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 310 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 85 tons, 4.6 %
- On freeboard deck: 85 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
819 lbs / 372 Kg = 7.6 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.455
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.71 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 50.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Aft deck: 5.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 158.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.2 %
Waterplane Area: 7,100 Square feet or 660 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 216 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 0.90
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
25t - LR Wireless
10t - Observation Balloon
50t - 1910 Aircraft Accomodations
Innovative, I think we are close to the time for some ship-mounted aircraft experiments.
Kirk, how will ships using the 1910 Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier be handled? Are they trials-only ships or might they have some value in combat?
Given how the 1910 and 1915 techs are written, I have to think the 1910 has floatplane and flying-off decks with no combat utility, while the 1915 tech has floatplanes and fly-off decks that do have combat utility.
Otherwise, I'm not really sure what would be in a 1910 ship if it can't operate floatplanes or a flying off deck.
Only reconnaissance to signal enemy ships a little beyond the horizon (+ - 40 km).
No firing guidance.
Very difficult to recover floatplane, impossible if the sea is rough (the pilot is picked up).
Quote from: Jefgte on July 23, 2020, 03:35:57 PM
Only reconnaissance to signal enemy ships a little beyond the horizon (+ - 40 km).
No firing guidance.
Very difficult to recover floatplane, impossible if the sea is rough (the pilot is picked up).
They're still figuring out the whole "10kts, hard to starboard" to create a spot of flat calm for the plane to land on?
Quote from: snip on July 23, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
Innovative, I think we are close to the time for some ship-mounted aircraft experiments.
Kirk, how will ships using the 1910 Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier be handled? Are they trials-only ships or might they have some value in combat?
1) I keep saying, if folks want me to look at a ship thread, send me a PM.
2) Looking at ship threads is a "idle time" thing for me and I may not wander by for weeks. I certainly DO NOT look at every turn, or every ship thread.
3) I've said repeatedly that if you have what is believed to be a questionable design, it's best to point out, because it would be awkward to find out in a war.
4) The tech dates seem to be picked based on historical events about 2 years (i.e. earliest development) later.
Googling 'floatplane 1912"..or something like that got me Wiki's "1912 in Aviation"
and this :
Quote27 May – The world's first seaplane carrier, the French Navy's Foudre, embarks her first floatplane,[16] a Canard Voisin.
Though the quote is misleading, it was a seaplane tender, a converted torpedo boat tender.
So...that's what the tech is probably indicating.
The floatplanes would be a reconnaisance only bird, very short range, probably 30-40knts normal, 50knts maximum...subtract the windspeed if into the wind...and only flyable in very light weather - if the sea has any chop, they are in trouble. Likewise radios were not carried until ~1916/17, so passing information is by flags/dropped notes/landing and relaying.
Reading the seaplane tender page :
Quote
On May 1, 1912, the Navy Ministry purchased several more seaplanes, a monoplane Breguet with a single float, a Nieuport with double float, and a converted Farman biplane.
Canard Voisin seaplane under trial in August 1911.
Experiments at sea started with the Foudre in July 1912 during tactical exercises in the Mediterranean. The Canard Voisin, and a new foldable Nieuport were used. During the exercises, in which a wargame simulated the fight of two rival navies, the use of the Nieuport allowed the discovery of a surprise attack by the "adversary". During the summer of 1912 many flights of the Canard Voisin from the Foudre were accomplished in the bay of Saint-Raphaël.
By the middle of 1913, the navy had 11 seaplane pilots. The Foudre was again used in large-scale naval exercises. One of its planes, a Nieuport used for observations, foiled a "surprise attack" by a group of warships. Five more seaplanes were ordered following these exercises.
So ...capable in the right conditions.
Other fun 1912 events :
Quote
8 June
The Italian dirigibles P2 and P3 discover and make a highly effective bombing attack against Ottoman Army cavalry during the Italo-Turkish War's Battle of Zanzur, making an important contribution to the Italian Army's victory in the battle.[10]
The first annual Aerial Derby takes place, sponsored by the Daily Mail. Seven participants flying a single circuit of an 81-mile (130-kilometer) course, starting and finishing at Hendon Aerodrome in London, with control points at Kempton Park, Esher, Purley, and Purfleet. A crowd of 45,000 spectators pays to see the start and finish, and large numbers of people watch the race along its route. Thomas Sopwith wins in a Bleriot XI-2 with a time of 1 hour 23 minutes 8.4 seconds, winning £250 and a gold cup.
10 June – The Austro-Hungarian submarine U-5 tows a kite balloon, apparently to determine the best coloration for submarines to avoid detection while underwater. Other than the experimental use of incendiary balloons from SMS Vulcano to bombard Venice in 1849 by its predecessor the Austrian Navy, it is the only operation of an observation balloon by the Austro-Hungarian Navy.[22]
19 June – The Royal Flying Corps's Central Flying School opens at Upavon, Wiltshire.
27 June – Following successes using aircraft against the Turks in North Africa, Italy forms a specialised Air Battalion (Battagliore Aviatori).
Drawing of the Wakayima compared to the Yodo and the other Japanese scout cruisers.
The flying off deck feels to advanced given that flying off decks are explicitly called out as a 1915 tech item.
How can you experiment without a flying off deck of some sort? The first aircraft to take-off from a ship was in 1910 from the USS Birmingham, which is the ship I based the flying-off deck from. Thats what I assume a 1910 tech ship looks like. I assume the 1915 tech would be closer to either Furious or the fly-off platforms mounted on several battleships around this time:
(https://battleshiptexas.info/images/Photos/Aviation/platform.jpg)
So just to make sure I'm crystal clear, my questions/comments are with the drawing, not with the inclusion of 1910 air facilities.
Based on what I can find of Birmingham's setup, the deck should have a rather pronounced slope to it, and you likely need more clearance between the end of the deck and the water.
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/002/0400216.jpg)
Different ships, different dimensions. If the capabilities are the same does it really matter that much?
A need has been found for close-in gunfire support for ground troops. The PC Chitose also sank in shallow enough water, where her main armament can be recovered. Japan is planning to build a couple of gunboats using her two main guns (cut down to 35cal) on a Toph Maru hull. Note the armor belt is an armored box providing splinter protection for the magazine.
Chitose, Japan Gun Boat laid down 1914
Displacement:
400 t light; 436 t standard; 466 t normal; 490 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.70 / 5.93 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.23 m x (1.74 / 1.81 m)
Armament:
1 - 8.00" / 203 mm 35.0 cal gun - 258.01lbs / 117.03kg shells, 170 per gun
Breech loading gun in deck and hoist mount, 1896 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1914 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
Weight of broadside 270 lbs / 123 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 20.00 ft / 6.10 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 15 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,663 shp / 1,241 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 55 tons
Complement:
49 - 65
Cost:
£0.052 million / $0.210 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 51 tons, 10.9 %
- Guns: 51 tons, 10.9 %
Armour: 14 tons, 3.1 %
- Belts: 9 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 64 tons, 13.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 250 tons, 53.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 66 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 21 tons, 4.5 %
- Hull below water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
738 lbs / 335 Kg = 2.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.536
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 40.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Aft deck: 15.00 %, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m, 7.20 ft / 2.19 m
- Average freeboard: 7.65 ft / 2.33 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.5 %
Waterplane Area: 3,699 Square feet or 344 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 264 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.10
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
5t - FC
16t - Electric Drive
Why not just use the box protection for Mags under the deck armor options?
I'd agree with that. Also, 25mm is pretty light. Itll stop very light splinters but not much else. I'd want 40mm to give you at least the solid chance of stopping 75mm to 100mm he shells.
Quote from: Desertfox on August 06, 2020, 11:41:47 AM
using her two main guns (cut down to 35cal) on a Toph Maru hull.
A) Cut down? Under which clause of the gun research rules?
B) The Japanese naval artillery list does not have any 8" M&H, much less an 8/35 single M&H.
C) 'on a Toph Maru' ...do you mean you are building a fresh vessel with the same dimensions as the Toph Maru hull, but with military scantlings?
Or that you are planning to convert an auxiliary to a warship?
I hadn't realized that was an option. This ship isn't supposed to see direct combat, so the armor is only supposed to help against 75mm field gun and 50mm naval gun (MTBs) splinters and light arms fire.
Are we not allowed to cut down guns? I'm literally taking an old gun and making it worse, while also making it unsuitable for naval combat.
It would be a new hull, the dimensions are almost the same but not quite. Its just quicker and cheaper to use an existing design (and drawing) that to design one from scratch.
if you're fielding a gun, you need to do it through the gun research rules.
Same with mountings.
Now, I pointed you to them because there is a reasonable answer in them, but I should not be the one doing the legwork.
According to the rules 210mm and smaller guns come with a free deck mount. The rules also only mention "refreshing" which is an upgrade to the gun not a downgrade. If I have to develop an 8/35, it comes out to $1 and 1 year, which makes no sense when all thats happening is taking two existing guns and chopping the ends off. They are not even new built guns. Just basically storyline fodder for ships that have the combat capability of a transport. Frankly speaking I have a better cheaper gunboat with twin 5" guns, I was planning to build anyways.
Hashidate, Japan Gun Boat laid down 1914
Displacement:
249 t light; 268 t standard; 291 t normal; 310 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 25.00 ft x (4.00 / 4.20 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 7.62 m x (1.22 / 1.28 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 150 lbs / 68 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,254 shp / 936 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 42 tons
Complement:
34 - 45
Cost:
£0.029 million / $0.116 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 26 tons, 9.0 %
- Guns: 26 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 10 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 3.3 %
Machinery: 48 tons, 16.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 123 tons, 42.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 43 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 42 tons, 14.4 %
- Hull below water: 12 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
563 lbs / 255 Kg = 9.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.510 / 0.518
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.8 %
Waterplane Area: 3,362 Square feet or 312 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 152 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
5t - FC
25t - Observation Balloon/Marines/Mine Gear/Etc
12t - Electric Drive
Quote from: Desertfox on August 07, 2020, 12:17:17 AM
According to the rules 210mm and smaller guns come with a free deck mount. The rules also only mention "refreshing" which is an upgrade to the gun not a downgrade. If I have to develop an 8/35, it comes out to $1 and 1 year, which makes no sense when all thats happening is taking two existing guns and chopping the ends off. They are not even new built guns. Just basically storyline fodder for ships that have the combat capability of a transport. Frankly speaking I have a better cheaper gunboat with twin 5" guns, I was planning to build anyways.
Actually refreshing includes relining a gun to a smaller size, or boring it out, or otherwise modifying an existing gun into a new gun. The changes are explicitly subject to review.
Refreshing would be the clause that would enable you to chop down the gun and reset the trunions or otherwise rebalance it, band the shortened muzzle to replace the muzzle bell you cut off, establish new ballistics tables etc. With an 1896 gun, you'd likely want to fit a better breech as well, and rejig the hoist system. You would also need to refresh the M&H for the 8/40 to turn it into the 8/35. If you do not have a M&H specified for an 8/40 you have to develop it.
So it really doesn't make sense to downgrade weapons, since its just as expensive as developing new ones... There should be exceptions for when the end result is clearly inferior to what you started with.
Using the 200t minesweeper hull as a base resulted in a superior gunboat design...
Hashidate 2.0, Japan Gun Boat laid down 1914
Displacement:
200 t light; 214 t standard; 233 t normal; 248 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(156.59 ft / 155.00 ft) x 21.00 ft x (5.00 / 5.24 ft)
(47.73 m / 47.24 m) x 6.40 m x (1.52 / 1.60 m)
Armament:
6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 150 lbs / 68 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,174 shp / 876 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,400nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 34 tons
Complement:
29 - 38
Cost:
£0.026 million / $0.105 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 26 tons, 11.3 %
- Guns: 26 tons, 11.3 %
Armour: 5 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 2.2 %
Machinery: 45 tons, 19.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 79 tons, 34.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 33 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 44 tons, 18.9 %
- Hull below water: 11 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
336 lbs / 152 Kg = 84.0 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.38 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 7.16 ft / 2.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.7 %
Waterplane Area: 2,169 Square feet or 201 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 143 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.81
- Longitudinal: 2.23
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
3t - FC
30t - Observation Balloon/Marines/Mine Gear Etc
11t - Electric Drive
I didn't really understand the rationale behind cutting down the 8" gun in the first place - the extra 40" of barrel length didn't seem problematic from a deck space perspective.
It was a matter of function, the high muzzle velocity of the 8/45 was not required on a shore bombardment gun and lowering it would reduce stress on the ship, allow for higher angles, and allow the use of thin skin, high explosive content shells, plus also reduced the weight of the gun and mount.
I might suggest that something along the lines of the 5in/25 or so could be developed as a light shore-bombardment gun. Which could later segue into an AA gun in time.
Refit of the Uji class. main gun upgraded to 5" and the exploration areas changed to support an observation balloon and minesweeping gear added.
Uji class, Japan Multi-purpose Colonial Auxiliary Ship laid down 1907
Displacement:
698 t light; 725 t standard; 885 t normal; 1,013 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(270.00 ft / 270.00 ft) x 31.00 ft x (7.40 / 8.20 ft)
(82.30 m / 82.30 m) x 9.45 m x (2.26 / 2.50 m)
Armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1914 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1907 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 75 lbs / 34 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,161 ihp / 1,612 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 5,700nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 288 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0.061 million / $0.246 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 13 tons, 1.5 %
- Guns: 13 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 4 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.3 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 238 tons, 26.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 318 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 187 tons, 21.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 14.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 70 tons
- Above deck: 55 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,454 lbs / 660 Kg = 23.3 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.71 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 35.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.28 ft / 2.83 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.5 %
Waterplane Area: 5,577 Square feet or 518 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 197 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.01
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
25t - 1 x LR wireless,
25t - 1 x Experimental Radar,
5t - FC and Flagship Facilities
20t - Observation Balloon Equipment
20t - 2 x 5t boats
20t - 10 x Marines
10t - Minesweeping Gear
What are the specs of the original "Uji"-class?
Basically the same just a 3" gun, and different misc weights: https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7295.0.html