A tiny battleship meant to protect the coastal waters.
QuoteHull-003, Light Battleship laid down 1910
Displacement:
10,332 t light; 11,441 t standard; 12,000 t normal; 12,447 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(450.00 ft / 450.00 ft) x 71.00 ft x (24.00 / 24.70 ft)
(137.16 m / 137.16 m) x 21.64 m x (7.32 / 7.53 m)
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 914.66lbs / 414.88kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,995 lbs / 3,626 kg
Main Torpedoes
16 - 21.7" / 550 mm, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m torpedoes - 1.524 t each, 24.386 t total
In 8 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 120.00 ft / 36.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.79" / 20 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 4.50" / 114 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 8.00" / 203 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,765 shp / 8,776 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,006 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
573 - 745
Cost:
£1.232 million / $4.927 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,612 tons, 13.4 %
- Guns: 1,563 tons, 13.0 %
- Weapons: 49 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 4,441 tons, 37.0 %
- Belts: 1,895 tons, 15.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 234 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 1,132 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,091 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 90 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 535 tons, 4.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,744 tons, 31.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,668 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,585 lbs / 5,709 Kg = 14.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.548 / 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.6 %
Waterplane Area: 22,250 Square feet or 2,067 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 701 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Kind of a lengthened cousin of Espana, eh? The extra length allows you to move the en echelon turrets to the centerline. The torpedo tubes are problematic, however: first offl, they're a major fire hazard at dreadnought battle ranges, second off, they block your 4" guns line of fire (because they're on the same leve and they have to be in front of the 4" guns to avoid being right below the barrels of the l2" guns). Move one or the other up or down (or get rid of most of the torpedoes, my personal recommendation). Lack of conning tower armor is also risky, a torpedo boat that gets close could shoot up the bridge crew with a 6 pounder.
The torpedo tubes are a consideration of the smaller ships it would have to dispatch along with the other duties of such a ship. But it is perfectly valid that there is no space for them - I don't believe in placing submerged torpedoes (expect on submarines ;)) so they'll be removed entirely.
So torpedo tubes removed and aft conning tower given some armor. That's all the changes.
QuoteHull-003, Light Battleship laid down 1910
Displacement:
10,275 t light; 11,441 t standard; 12,000 t normal; 12,447 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(450.00 ft / 450.00 ft) x 71.00 ft x (24.00 / 24.70 ft)
(137.16 m / 137.16 m) x 21.64 m x (7.32 / 7.53 m)
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 914.66lbs / 414.88kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.89lbs / 15.37kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,995 lbs / 3,626 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 120.00 ft / 36.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.79" / 20 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 61.00 ft / 18.59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 8.00" / 203 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,765 shp / 8,776 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,006 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
573 - 745
Cost:
£1.230 million / $4.919 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,563 tons, 13.0 %
- Guns: 1,563 tons, 13.0 %
Armour: 4,430 tons, 36.9 %
- Belts: 1,895 tons, 15.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 193 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 1,116 tons, 9.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,091 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Towers: 136 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 535 tons, 4.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,747 tons, 31.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,725 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,540 lbs / 5,688 Kg = 14.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.548 / 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 11.32 ft / 3.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.4 %
Waterplane Area: 22,250 Square feet or 2,067 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 699 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
OK, about the only thing left is the 4" guns: if you're happy with their cramped layout, they should be quick firing guns rather than breech loaders.
I think it's a necessary evil (where else would you put them?) and the change from BL to QF actually doesn't make a difference in SS so I wouldn't post the revised copy.
Here is a similar design though following along the lines of the RL Dante Alighieri and Gangut battleships - triples. The ship uses triples to shorten the citadel - allowing for:
+ 1 12"/50 gun
+ 1" 12"/50 turret barbette armor
+ 1" main belt armor
~ 4 Raised secondaries
+ 50 rounds per gun for secondaries
QuoteHull-004, Light Battleship laid down 1910
Displacement:
10,163 t light; 11,450 t standard; 12,000 t normal; 12,440 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(400.00 ft / 400.00 ft) x 73.00 ft x (26.00 / 26.75 ft)
(121.92 m / 121.92 m) x 22.25 m x (7.92 / 8.15 m)
Armament:
9 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 914.65lbs / 414.88kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.89lbs / 15.37kg shells, 350 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,910 lbs / 4,041 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.79" / 20 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 64.00 ft / 19.51 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 8.00" / 203 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,272 shp / 9,155 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 991 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
573 - 745
Cost:
£1.324 million / $5.296 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,760 tons, 14.7 %
- Guns: 1,760 tons, 14.7 %
Armour: 4,121 tons, 34.3 %
- Belts: 1,701 tons, 14.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 152 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 1,130 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,002 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Towers: 136 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 558 tons, 4.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,725 tons, 31.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,837 tons, 15.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,016 lbs / 4,997 Kg = 12.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.553 / 0.557
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 11.08 ft / 3.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74.7 %
Waterplane Area: 20,440 Square feet or 1,899 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 767 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.96
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Been a while - the concept below is as an alternative to the eventual Alaska design. Since the initial demand was for a Pocket Battleship like that of the Deutschland-class, that is what I designed.
In order to keep the speed high (32 kts) and the ship relatively protected, the size had to balloon (originally a 15,000 ton normal design). To keep the inflation contained, much like the real Alaska class, no TBS is installed.
Keeping line with USN practice, the range is the standard 10,000 nm @ 15 kts (Baltimore) and has the same comfortable secondary battery numbers and arrangement.
The GM is an adequate 3.83 ft and the GM/Beam ratio 0.05319. The roll period is a longer than I would want, ideally I would go for a 7-10 sec range, but SS is quite stubborn on the issue.
The end result is a ship about 12,000 tons lighter at full load than the historical Alaska with slightly thicker armor and 1/3 less firepower. By comparison, the ship is about 4,500 tons heavier than the Baltimore heavy cruisers.
QuoteAlaska, USN PBB laid down 1942
Displacement:
18,427 t light; 19,174 t standard; 21,000 t normal; 22,461 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(750.00 ft / 750.00 ft) x 72.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.39 ft)
(228.60 m / 228.60 m) x 21.95 m x (7.92 / 8.35 m)
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,140.01lbs / 517.10kg shells, 50 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1937 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 200 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1932 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 2.18lbs / 0.99kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
24 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,657 lbs / 3,473 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 488.00 ft / 148.74 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 4.00" / 102 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.50" / 114 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 122,404 shp / 91,313 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,287 tons
Complement:
871 - 1,133
Cost:
£11.005 million / $44.018 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,539 tons, 7.3 %
- Guns: 1,539 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 6,382 tons, 30.4 %
- Belts: 3,186 tons, 15.2 %
- Armament: 888 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,234 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 74 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,198 tons, 15.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,308 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,573 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,864 lbs / 12,185 Kg = 31.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.524 / 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.39 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.67 ft / 5.39 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.6 %
Waterplane Area: 36,782 Square feet or 3,417 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 709 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
This is an attempt to design the N3 RRC Armored Cruiser, Huang Hun, with more SS and NA experience.
The first thing changed was the laid down date, I instead waited for newer engines and other technologies (such as All-or-Nothing and Sloped Armor).
The end result was a lighter and overall stronger ship. The main battery is centralized and reduced to lower the GM and avoid super-firing penalties. The speed was increased from 25.84 to 28 by adopting oil-firing boilers. The armor was thickened were it mattered, resulting in an immunity from 6,000 yds to 18,000 yds against the Russian 12"/52 1907 pattern gun.
QuoteHuang Hun, RRC PBB laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
12,000 t light; 12,423 t standard; 13,386 t normal; 14,156 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(550.00 ft / 550.00 ft) x 73.00 ft x (23.00 / 24.00 ft)
(167.64 m / 167.64 m) x 22.25 m x (7.01 / 7.32 m)
Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm 45.0 cal guns - 671.18lbs / 304.44kg shells, 50 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 32.28lbs / 14.64kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,415 lbs / 2,002 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 20.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.2" / 334 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 63,407 shp / 47,302 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,734 tons
Complement:
621 - 808
Cost:
£2.083 million / $8.332 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 971 tons, 7.3 %
- Guns: 971 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 3,888 tons, 29.0 %
- Belts: 2,109 tons, 15.8 %
- Armament: 708 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,022 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,362 tons, 17.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,528 tons, 33.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,386 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1.9 %
- Above deck: 250 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,043 lbs / 7,277 Kg = 24.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.507 / 0.514
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.53 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 16.62 ft / 5.06 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.8 %
Waterplane Area: 26,931 Square feet or 2,502 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 632 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
An 1870 period ironclad warship. The arrangement is reminiscent of the USS Monitor. I lowered the ship's trim to increase the metacentric height and reduce the roll period. Despite what SS thinks, a roll period longer than 11 sec is generally not good, neither is a GM/B ratio lower than 0.05.
QuoteHull-05, Armored Ship laid down 1870
Displacement:
3,056 t light; 3,189 t standard; 3,500 t normal; 3,749 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(220.00 ft / 220.00 ft) x 46.00 ft x (20.00 / 21.20 ft)
(67.06 m / 67.06 m) x 14.02 m x (6.10 / 6.46 m)
Armament:
2 - 12.00" / 305 mm 13.5 cal guns - 706.01lbs / 320.24kg shells, 80 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mount, 1870 Model
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 1,412 lbs / 640 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 220.00 ft / 67.06 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.90" / 201 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,795 ihp / 1,339 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 560 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
226 - 295
Cost:
£0.204 million / $0.817 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 67 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 67 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 1,299 tons, 37.1 %
- Belts: 781 tons, 22.3 %
- Armament: 207 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 272 tons, 7.8 %
- Conning Tower: 39 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 440 tons, 12.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,244 tons, 35.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 444 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0.2 %
- Hull below water: 6 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,558 lbs / 1,614 Kg = 5.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.605 / 0.612
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 5.20 ft / 1.58 m, 5.20 ft / 1.58 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 5.20 ft / 1.58 m, 5.20 ft / 1.58 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 5.50 ft / 1.68 m, 5.20 ft / 1.58 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 5.20 ft / 1.58 m, 5.20 ft / 1.58 m
- Average freeboard: 5.25 ft / 1.60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 52.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 32.4 %
Waterplane Area: 7,282 Square feet or 676 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 598 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.68
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
Maybe make it look a bit more like the USS Monitor by lowering the freeboard a bit more. :)
Considereing that the other points of the freeboard are 5.20 ft, I assume that the 5.50 ft is a typing error.
IMO, I m not fan of this kind of ship.
During the war, monitors with low freeboard made good work on rivers but were nearly unable to work in coastal sea.
I note on your SS a range of 3000nm.
If you want to work in coastal waters, increase forecastle freeboard by one deck or half deck.
--
Floating battery (Tonnante) of Crimean war had higher freeboard
Jef ;)
I did as Jef suggested and increased the foredeck and forecastle height by 1 deck. I was able to buy a bit more range (4000 vs 3000) and speed (12.5 vs 12) by accepting a lower GM/B ratio (0.045 vs 0.059) by modifying the hull dimensions.
QuoteHull-05 Scheme 2, Armored Ship laid down 1870
Displacement:
2,955 t light; 3,087 t standard; 3,500 t normal; 3,830 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (24.00 / 25.94 ft)
(60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 12.19 m x (7.32 / 7.91 m)
Armament:
2 - 12.00" / 305 mm 13.5 cal guns - 706.01lbs / 320.24kg shells, 80 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mount, 1870 Model
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 1,412 lbs / 640 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 10.0" / 254 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 2,178 ihp / 1,625 Kw = 12.50 kts
Range 4,000nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 743 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
226 - 295
Cost:
£0.214 million / $0.856 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 67 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 67 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 1,190 tons, 34.0 %
- Belts: 710 tons, 20.3 %
- Armament: 207 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 223 tons, 6.4 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 534 tons, 15.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,164 tons, 33.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 545 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,976 lbs / 1,350 Kg = 4.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.638 / 0.646
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
- Average freeboard: 7.50 ft / 2.29 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 36.4 %
Waterplane Area: 5,965 Square feet or 554 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 585 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.69
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The downside of the redesign is that while you've now improved the seakeeping, you've also made the ship substantially more vulnerable, because that raised foredeck has no protection from enemy projectiles. I would recommend some upper belt armor. The other flaw I can see is that the draft is VERY high for it's size, meaning this ship is going to quite limited in where it can sail and prone to grounding
Classic Monitor-style designs are limited in their usefulness, absolutely. The other side of the coin is that they're quite good at what they're good at, so like so many things at this time period, you have to choose what's important to you.
QuoteClassic Monitor-style designs are limited in their usefulness, absolutely. The other side of the coin is that they're quite good at what they're good at, so like so many things at this time period, you have to choose what's important to you.
From wiki:
"The body of water known as Hampton Roads is one of the world's largest natural harbors (more accurately a roadstead or "roads"). It incorporates the mouths of the Elizabeth River and James River with several smaller rivers and empties into the Chesapeake Bay near its mouth leading to the Atlantic Ocean."
Monitors with low freeboard are very good to defend Elisabeth & James river mouths... or, by extension, other river mouths.
In our SIM, defend an estuary is short for a warship job => Increase freeboard to defend ocean coast & harbors => built a 3rd line battleship to work @ the end of the battleline.
:) Just Jef opinion :)
I think that's a bit misleading. The limitation imposed by high draft are the same no matter the displacement, rather than as you suggest, a function of the displacement.
As far as it's draft goes, it's about the same at other vessels of the period (granted ocean-going). The only drawback for it's high draft relative to it's beam is that it reduces it's metacentric height.
As you suggest, it's not going to be the best ship for monitor-ese work, however I designed it as a sort of fusion between a true monitor and an ocean-going ironclad warship ala HMS Devastation. Which gives a hint as to the sort of mission expected. As far as pure river defense work, that seems to be more the territory of 1000 tons or smaller ships.
I should change the deck armor scheme to protected deck - single rather than the current setting, but changing it doesn't affect the ship strength, so I'll refrain from posting it again. This should counteract the unprotected raised foredeck somewhat.
This design is meant to take on the tasks of a monitor (patrol rivers and provide naval fire-support for troops near the rivers).
QuoteHull-06 Scheme 1, Monitor laid down 1870
Displacement:
906 t light; 970 t standard; 1,000 t normal; 1,024 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(160.00 ft / 160.00 ft) x 31.00 ft x (10.00 / 10.21 ft)
(48.77 m / 48.77 m) x 9.45 m x (3.05 / 3.11 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.00" / 229 mm 14.0 cal guns - 250.00lbs / 113.40kg shells, 80 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,000 lbs / 454 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 4.00" / 102 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 80 ihp / 60 Kw = 6.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 6.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 53 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
88 - 115
Cost:
£0.066 million / $0.263 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 74 tons, 7.4 %
- Guns: 74 tons, 7.4 %
Armour: 324 tons, 32.4 %
- Belts: 142 tons, 14.2 %
- Armament: 100 tons, 10.0 %
- Armour Deck: 74 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Tower: 9 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 20 tons, 2.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 488 tons, 48.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 94 tons, 9.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,327 lbs / 602 Kg = 5.2 x 9.0 " / 229 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.72
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.706 / 0.708
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 19 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m, 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
- Average freeboard: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 38.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 25.8 %
Waterplane Area: 3,972 Square feet or 369 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 151 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 105 lbs/sq ft or 514 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.86
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Turret armor's probably a bit light in case you run into a rifled gun.
BC is VERY high.
A little more speed would be nice for going upriver.
It's slower than tankers today, which typically run 0.80 and above C
b. I don't think the C
b is much of a problem.
More speed might be nice, but I defer to the typical river-work monitors of the period.
Indeed, the turret work is light in the scenario you mention, but I don't think fighting a ship with a rifled gun is part of the mission description.
IMO, hypotheticals like that are dangerous in that they eventually double or triple a design's displacement.
In other news, a 1870 line battleship design.
QuoteHull-08 Sch 1, Battleship laid down 1870
Displacement:
8,268 t light; 8,700 t standard; 9,500 t normal; 10,140 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(405.10 ft / 400.00 ft) x 51.50 ft x (27.00 / 28.52 ft)
(123.47 m / 121.92 m) x 15.70 m x (8.23 / 8.69 m)
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm 15.0 cal guns - 1,016.77lbs / 461.20kg shells, 80 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 30.0 cal guns - 83.29lbs / 37.78kg shells, 220 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,567 lbs / 2,071 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 24.0" / 610 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 62 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 3.00" / 76 mm -
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 3.00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 16.00" / 406 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,048 ihp / 3,766 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,440 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
480 - 625
Cost:
£0.605 million / $2.419 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 275 tons, 2.9 %
- Guns: 275 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 3,165 tons, 33.3 %
- Belts: 1,666 tons, 17.5 %
- Armament: 522 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 823 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 155 tons, 1.6 %
Machinery: 1,237 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,590 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,232 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,281 lbs / 3,756 Kg = 8.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.598 / 0.604
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 9.55 ft / 2.91 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 58.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 52.5 %
Waterplane Area: 14,702 Square feet or 1,366 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 762 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Rifled guns were also used inland and on shore during the US Civil War, for example a 7.5" Blakely rifle was used by the Confederates against Union gunboats at Vicksburg, and the Union used 8" Parrott rifles both as siege weapons and as coast defense weapons. The assumptions you make will potentially save you or cost you money or ships, depending on which way you bias the choice.
As far as the ship goes, the 6" guns are too long for muzzleloaders, and long for blackpowder weapons in any case. The main belt armor is very thick , but covers little of hulls length and leaves 5' exposed between the top of the belt and the top of the hull. Armor on the 6" guns doesn't make sense for the period. No sails, so you're limited to sailing where you can get coal.
I didn't look up the 6" gun's particulars, so I'll correct it to breech-loading. I'll remove the secondary armor. The secondary was based on that found on Jef's BB design.
The main belt is modeled off the Abercrombie-class monitor, which was thick at 24" (1870 armor is usually just iron plates), short (look at the US predreadnought armor heights for example), covers little of the hulls length. If you look at the data on US predreadnoughts and monitors, their main belts are only ~8 ft tall. Furthermore, if you look at the Indianna and Iowa cross-sections, they have 1 deck unarmored.
For example:
In Maine, the belt is 7' tall (3' above, 4' below) and 180' long on a 318' 3" long ship.
In Texas, the belt is 6.5' tall (2' above, 4.5' below) and 118' long on a 301' 4" long ship.
In New Jersey, the belt is 8' tall (3' above, 5' below) and 192' long on a 435' long ship.
In Louisiana, the belt is 9.3' tall and 200' long on a 450' long ship.
Well in any case, I messed with the design and found I can get more strength from a shorter hull length, so:
QuoteHull-08 Sch 2, Battleship laid down 1870
Displacement:
7,001 t light; 7,316 t standard; 8,000 t normal; 8,548 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 52.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.60 ft)
(91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 15.85 m x (8.23 / 8.72 m)
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm 15.0 cal guns - 1,016.77lbs / 461.20kg shells, 50 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 30.0 cal guns - 83.29lbs / 37.78kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1870 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,567 lbs / 2,071 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 24.0" / 610 mm 130.00 ft / 39.62 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 170.00 ft / 51.82 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 130.00 ft / 39.62 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 67 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 3.00" / 76 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 3.00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3.00" / 76 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.40" / 340 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 4,897 ihp / 3,653 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,232 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
422 - 549
Cost:
£0.555 million / $2.221 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 277 tons, 3.5 %
- Guns: 277 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 2,635 tons, 32.9 %
- Belts: 1,379 tons, 17.2 %
- Armament: 471 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 670 tons, 8.4 %
- Conning Tower: 115 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 1,200 tons, 15.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,888 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 999 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,550 lbs / 2,971 Kg = 6.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.665 / 0.671
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.50 ft / 2.90 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 9.42 ft / 2.87 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 51.3 %
Waterplane Area: 11,970 Square feet or 1,112 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 785 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 2.86
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Not sure what a WWI monitor design has to do with an 1870 ship design.
I don't think a Cole/Ericcson turret is going to work with that much discrepancy in weight between the front and the sides At best, it will be similar to the early USN turrets of the New Navy, where the turrets were unbalanced and training the guns resulted in the ship heeling.
Er, sorry. I had the two ships opened next to each other and seem to have gotten the names wrong. How embarrassing. I mean to say the Colossus-class battleship (1882).
I'm not as privy to the details of the Cole/Ericsson construction, so what is the recommended ratio?
In any case, I'm a bit confused on a point. The balance of a turret is determined by it's center of gravity which is a function of it's front/back weight ratio and it's left/right side weight ratio. Why should it matter if the sides are lighter as long as it's balanced? The center of gravity does not change if the front/back is heavier than the sides.
The rule of thumb for black powder cannons is to never have a barrel longer than 20 times the projectile's diameter. Black powder gives a sharp jolt instead of a smooth combustion. Exceeding 20 caliber actually reduces muzzle velocity, range, and accuracy. Brown powder and smokeless powder burn slower and provide a smoother and more sustained acceleration, allowing for longer barrels.
An Ericsson turret literally turns on a spindle, so having a turret that's substantially unbalanced (like having a 16" face and 3" sides, rear, and top) would not work well. Pictures of both the Coles and Ericsson plans are here: http://www.cityofart.net/bship/turretships.html. Judging by HMS Monarch, I would suggest keeping the front and sides/rear of the turret within a few inches of one another, up to perhaps as many as 5".
<nod> Yeah, and the improved prismatic powder with a more consistent burning speed won't be available for few years yet.
*nods to the short black powder cannons*
Also the bigger the caliber the shorter the barrel (measured in calibers).
I have found a few exceptions though: Krupp produced a few very big (like 45 cm or so) guns, which were breech loaders and between 40 and 50 calibers long in the mid 19th century. Unfortunately, I can't find the right link anymore. This page (http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/scientific-american/sup5/The-New-Krupp-Guns.html) mentions such a gun, but not when it was written, while this (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30713F73D5413738DDDAB0894DD405B8784F0D3) was written in 1887 and might refer to a different gun because I remember them being around and discussed for the Italia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Italia_%281880%29) (laid down 1876).
I also found a few pictures (but no relevant data) about a giant Krupp breech loader which won a prize on the 1867 world exhibition.
Quote from: Nobody on August 08, 2013, 06:49:30 AM
*nods to the short black powder cannons*
Also the bigger the caliber the shorter the barrel (measured in calibers).
I have found a few exceptions though: Krupp produced a few very big (like 45 cm or so) guns, which were breech loaders and between 40 and 50 calibers long in the mid 19th century. Unfortunately, I can't find the right link anymore. This page (http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/scientific-american/sup5/The-New-Krupp-Guns.html) mentions such a gun, but not when it was written, while this (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30713F73D5413738DDDAB0894DD405B8784F0D3) was written in 1887 and might refer to a different gun because I remember them being around and discussed for the Italia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Italia_%281880%29) (laid down 1876).
I also found a few pictures (but no relevant data) about a giant Krupp breech loader which won a prize on the 1867 world exhibition.
The article on The New Krupp Guns from Scientific American is from 1887. Those L/40 guns are using brown powder, NOT black powder.
Laid down in 1880, the Kaze-class uses it's high endurance, speed, and steady gun platform to raid enemy commerce.
QuoteKaze, Japan Commerce Raider laid down 1880
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,250 t standard; 7,220 t normal; 7,996 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(505.36 ft / 500.00 ft) x 44.00 ft x (22.50 / 24.41 ft)
(154.03 m / 152.40 m) x 13.41 m x (6.86 / 7.44 m)
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 238.03lbs / 107.97kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 952 lbs / 432 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.50" / 38 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.50" / 13 mm
Forecastle: 0.50" / 13 mm Quarter deck: 0.50" / 13 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 15,845 ihp / 11,821 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,746 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
391 - 509
Cost:
£0.713 million / $2.852 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 138 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 138 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 363 tons, 5.0 %
- Belts: 222 tons, 3.1 %
- Armour Deck: 133 tons, 1.8 %
- Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3,274 tons, 45.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,225 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,220 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,663 lbs / 1,208 Kg = 12.2 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.511 / 0.521
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.36 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.18 ft / 4.32 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 153.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.5 %
Waterplane Area: 14,253 Square feet or 1,324 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 88 lbs/sq ft or 430 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
L:B ratio might be a bit of an issue here. I assume the armor is only to protect from hand guns that would be carried by the crews of target ships.
You would be correct with regard to the armor.
I'll attempt to work some magic on the hull form.
45 caliber guns also make no sense in 1880, they're too long for brown powder to use efficiently and given the technology of the day would probably suffer badly from droop.
For a commerce raider, 4 8" guns are also an odd choice: too big to fire rapidly, too small to punch through armor, and bigger than necessary to attack unarmed vessels.
QuoteFor a commerce raider, 4 8" guns are also an odd choice: too big to fire rapidly, too small to punch through armor, and bigger than necessary to attack unarmed vessels.
It's probably going to be faster than anything that can hurt it so probably better to go for the smaller guns you think?
At that speed, it will be hard to catch, yes.
The machinery space required is too large such that though I can save strength with the switch to 4"/25 I can't shrink the ship.
As a result, I thickened the armor instead.
QuoteKaze, Japan Commerce Raider laid down 1880
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,155 t standard; 7,066 t normal; 7,795 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(454.56 ft / 450.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.70 ft)
(138.55 m / 137.16 m) x 15.24 m x (6.71 / 7.22 m)
Armament:
5 - 4.00" / 102 mm 25.0 cal guns - 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
5 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 125 lbs / 57 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.50" / 13 mm
Forecastle: 0.50" / 13 mm Quarter deck: 0.50" / 13 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.55" / 39 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,091 ihp / 12,004 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,639 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
384 - 500
Cost:
£0.679 million / $2.716 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12 tons, 0.2 %
- Guns: 12 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 563 tons, 8.0 %
- Belts: 400 tons, 5.7 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 140 tons, 2.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,325 tons, 47.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,100 tons, 29.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,066 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,819 lbs / 1,279 Kg = 103.6 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.60
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.56
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.512
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.67 ft / 3.86 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 152.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.9 %
Waterplane Area: 14,986 Square feet or 1,392 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 423 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
For sinking freighters, 4" guns are probably smaller than ideal, just as 8" guns are probably larger than ideal. A gun firing around a 100 pound shell is probably about what you want.
Hm, how is this then? Replaced 4"/25s firing 25lb shells with 6"/25s firing 80lb shells.
QuoteKaze, Japan Commerce Raider laid down 1880
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,177 t standard; 7,097 t normal; 7,833 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(454.29 ft / 450.00 ft) x 48.00 ft x (23.00 / 24.79 ft)
(138.47 m / 137.16 m) x 14.63 m x (7.01 / 7.56 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.0 cal guns - 80.00lbs / 36.29kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 320 lbs / 145 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.50" / 13 mm
Forecastle: 0.50" / 13 mm Quarter deck: 0.50" / 13 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.60" / 41 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,127 ihp / 12,031 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,656 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
386 - 502
Cost:
£0.686 million / $2.744 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 30 tons, 0.4 %
- Guns: 30 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 558 tons, 7.9 %
- Belts: 400 tons, 5.6 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 134 tons, 1.9 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,332 tons, 47.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,080 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,097 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,702 lbs / 1,226 Kg = 29.4 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.55
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.53
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.512
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.38 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 12.59 ft / 3.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 153.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.9 %
Waterplane Area: 14,391 Square feet or 1,337 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 424 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
That's probably the best balanced of the bunch. Of course, the danger for any vessel like this is the bad luck of running into an enemy in the darkness or bad weather, where she could find herself in enemy gun range before she can build up steam nad flee.
QuoteYuri, IJN Troopship laid down 1870
Displacement:
3,500 t light; 3,593 t standard; 4,460 t normal; 5,154 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(254.64 ft / 250.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (23.00 / 26.12 ft)
(77.62 m / 76.20 m) x 12.19 m x (7.01 / 7.96 m)
Armament:
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 15.0 cal guns - 10.00lbs / 4.54kg shells, 150 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 40 lbs / 18 kg
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 319 ihp / 238 Kw = 7.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,561 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
272 - 354
Cost:
£0.134 million / $0.537 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 0.0 %
- Guns: 2 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 78 tons, 1.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,420 tons, 31.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 960 tons, 21.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,000 tons, 44.8 %
- Hull below water: 1,000 tons
- Hull above water: 1,000 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,464 lbs / 2,932 Kg = 684.0 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.679 / 0.691
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 17 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 20.20 ft / 6.16 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.4 %
Waterplane Area: 7,787 Square feet or 723 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 206 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 392 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.78
- Longitudinal: 8.71
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
2,000 tons for 1,000 troops
I seems OK by the rules, but why would a Japanese troopship have a) no sails, and b) 10,000 miles of range under steam? The engine is all but certain to have several failures within that period of use, and the ship has no other means of propulsion.
a) I didn't want to bother adding the misc. weight. It's a hassle to calculate.
b) For range since the ship has no sails.
I'm not sure what system we're using for sail speed anymore.
You have 1561 tons of coal for a 3500 tons ship.
Use sails are certainly economical
Jef
My point on the question about a 10,000 nm range is where is Japan, in 1870, thinking of going that needs 10,000 miles of unrefueled range? It's only 9294 nm to Valparaiso from Tokyo, after all......
Some ports do not have capacity to support a fleet train.The ship carries enough coal to loiter in the area and to top off other ship's bunkers in foreign ports.
I'd think the job of refueling the fleet would fall to a collier, unloading from your bunkers isn't going to be an easy task (collecting the coal, bagging it, getting it up to the main deck, then across to the other ship). On a collier, it wouldn't be unbagged and it would be stored in a hold, so just a matter of swinging the coal across to the other ship.
A tiny, inexpensive commerce raider. The intention is to use sails to navigate in general and use steam only to catch merchants or run away.
The virtue of the ship is the small amount of resources they drain, in materials and fuel, while greatly increasing the risk to enemy shipping. A few operating out of Okinawa, for example, could potentially paralyze the East China Sea trade. The lost of a few by enemy fire or other situations, at the same time, is no great blow to Japan.
QuoteH-18 Scheme 2, Commerce Raider laid down 1870
Corvette (Unarmoured)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,040 t standard; 1,083 t normal; 1,118 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(200.00 ft / 196.00 ft) x 23.00 ft x (15.00 / 15.39 ft)
(60.96 m / 59.74 m) x 7.01 m x (4.57 / 4.69 m)
Armament:
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.0 cal guns - 80.00lbs / 36.29kg shells, 200 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 160 lbs / 73 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 4,197 ihp / 3,131 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 78 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
93 - 122
Cost:
£0.123 million / $0.493 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 13 tons, 1.2 %
- Guns: 13 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 600 tons, 55.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 330 tons, 30.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 83 tons, 7.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 54 tons, 5.0 %
- Above deck: 54 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
198 lbs / 90 Kg = 2.6 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.561 / 0.564
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.36 ft / 0.11 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.16 ft / 2.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 183.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 50.6 %
Waterplane Area: 3,087 Square feet or 287 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 50 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 264 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.71
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Sail speed = 7.0 knots
How far can it run at full speed?
2 80 pounders might be a bit marginal for armament, for a commerce raider, merchantmen in China Sea area are commonly armed at this period because of the risk of piracy. They'll be lighter smoothbore weapons, almpst certainly, but 2 guns may not be enough to overawe them into a surrender.
That's simply not true. But your logic, the Chinese merchants would have been armed for over a millennium since the plague of piracy along Chinese coasts has been a long-standing thing. Yet the fact that the pirates continued their business without having as many weapons as you claim to need, means merchant ships, despite the threat were not armed to repel them. (In fact many just paid tribute or gave away part of their cargo to avoid trouble)
Another point is that an armed merchant is far different than a warship in that merchants are not well trained in gunnery and other tactics. When push comes to shove, most of them will panic. The warship has the advantage in both superior construction material, training, and experience. We had this discussion in N3.
Also add that most shipping in the region are still junks, an all black iron-hulled ship will still scare many a merchant.
If we look at the Battle of Tonkin River for the example of the armament of the typical pirates of the period, we see they had 10-6 long 18-lbers guns for each junk. That means a broadside of 5-3 18-lbers, ie 90-54lb broadside weight. The 6" gun fires a 80 lb shell and the centerline mounting means a a broadside weight of 160lb. (Not to mention the 6" gun fires further, is more "awe"-inspiring, and is more accurate at the ranges they duel).
Quote from: Logi on August 29, 2013, 03:09:40 PM
That's simply not true. But your logic, the Chinese merchants would have been armed for over a millennium since the plague of piracy along Chinese coasts has been a long-standing thing. Yet the fact that the pirates continued their business without having as many weapons as you claim to need, means merchant ships, despite the threat were not armed to repel them. (In fact many just paid tribute or gave away part of their cargo to avoid trouble)
Another point is that an armed merchant is far different than a warship in that merchants are not well trained in gunnery and other tactics. When push comes to shove, most of them will panic. The warship has the advantage in both superior construction material, training, and experience. We had this discussion in N3.
Also add that most shipping in the region are still junks, an all black iron-hulled ship will still scare many a merchant.
If we look at the Battle of Tonkin River for the example of the armament of the typical pirates of the period, we see they had 10-6 long 18-lbers guns for each junk. That means a broadside of 5-3 18-lbers, ie 90-54lb broadside weight. The 6" gun fires a 80 lb shell and the centerline mounting means a a broadside weight of 160lb. (Not to mention the 6" gun fires further, is more "awe"-inspiring, and is more accurate at the ranges they duel).
You're making a lot of assumptions there, and keep in mind I wasn't around during N3. When I said "merchants", I'm not talking about only Chinese junks (though they'll be there as well). Are the Chinese or Korean fleets the ONLY things you're planning on raiding? Unlikely. If you wish to believe that 2 guns is sufficient for all purposes, I'm not going to argue.
Well even then, the point stands.
Merchants are not well-trained in gunnery and that sort of situation. If it was as you imply such a good idea, why didn't Britain do it instead of sending convoy escorts for their ships.
In any case, after some modification.
QuoteH-18 Scheme 3, Commerce Raider laid down 1870
Corvette (Unarmoured)
Displacement:
750 t light; 802 t standard; 839 t normal; 868 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(199.18 ft / 196.00 ft) x 20.00 ft x (12.00 / 12.35 ft)
(60.71 m / 59.74 m) x 6.10 m x (3.66 / 3.77 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.0 cal guns - 80.01lbs / 36.29kg shells, 200 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 320 lbs / 145 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.50" / 13 mm
Forecastle: 0.50" / 13 mm Quarter deck: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 2,227 ihp / 1,661 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 66 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
77 - 101
Cost:
£0.090 million / $0.359 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 26 tons, 3.1 %
- Guns: 26 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 32 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 27 tons, 3.2 %
Machinery: 392 tons, 46.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 257 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 89 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 42 tons, 5.0 %
- Above deck: 42 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
183 lbs / 83 Kg = 2.4 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.624 / 0.627
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 8.75 ft / 2.67 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 6.49 ft / 1.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 44.5 %
Waterplane Area: 2,879 Square feet or 267 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 252 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.67
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
Sail speed = 7.0 knots
Hmmmm, a war canoe, basically. Better gun power than the previous design, obviously. Guns to the middle of the ship will have limited arcs, due to rigging, stacks, masts, etc.
Gun shields are not reasonable for period designs, they should be removed. Not sure that the 13mm decks add much value here, if a shell hits and explodes, the fragments will likely be big enough to penetrate that.
The USN uses similar thickness splinter shields. I'll remove the gun shields as suggested.
Slightly thickened splinter armor and removed gun shields.
QuoteH-18 Scheme 3, Commerce Raider laid down 1870
Corvette (Unarmoured)
Displacement:
750 t light; 803 t standard; 839 t normal; 868 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(198.48 ft / 196.00 ft) x 20.00 ft x (12.00 / 12.35 ft)
(60.50 m / 59.74 m) x 6.10 m x (3.66 / 3.77 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.0 cal guns - 80.01lbs / 36.29kg shells, 200 per gun
Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 320 lbs / 145 kg
Armour:
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.63" / 16 mm
Forecastle: 0.63" / 16 mm Quarter deck: 0.63" / 16 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 2,228 ihp / 1,662 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 7.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 66 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
77 - 101
Cost:
£0.090 million / $0.359 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 26 tons, 3.1 %
- Guns: 26 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 34 tons, 4.0 %
- Armour Deck: 34 tons, 4.0 %
Machinery: 392 tons, 46.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 257 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 89 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 42 tons, 5.0 %
- Above deck: 42 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
183 lbs / 83 Kg = 2.4 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.624 / 0.627
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 9.25 ft / 2.82 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 6.53 ft / 1.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 44.5 %
Waterplane Area: 2,880 Square feet or 268 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 51 lbs/sq ft or 251 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
Sail speed = 7.0 knots
I tried my hand at a Kongo style ship. I call it a battlecruiser, but it probably closer to a fast battleship than a battlecruiser.
Compared with OTL Kongo (before reconstruction):
- Slightly longer, wider, and deeper.
- 1 additional 356mm (14") gun crowded into 1 less turret (3 vs 4)
- 0.5 kn slower (27 kn vs 27.5 kn)
- No AA and smaller secondaries (140mm vs 152mm)
- No Torpedo Tubes
- Much heavier belt (340mm vs 203mm) and deck (90mm vs 70mm) armor
- Much heavier gun face (460mm vs 254mm) and side/roof (150mm vs 76mm) armor
- No upper belt (0mm vs 152mm) or end belt (0mm vs 76mm)
- Practically no reserve space/weight (only 6t misc weight)
- No torpedo bulkhead (but neither did the original Kongo)
QuoteIbuki, IJN Battlecruiser laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
25,000 t light; 26,325 t standard; 28,847 t normal; 30,864 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(721.77 ft / 718.50 ft) x 95.14 ft x (29.53 / 31.08 ft)
(220.00 m / 219.00 m) x 29.00 m x (9.00 / 9.47 m)
Armament:
9 - 14.02" / 356 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,499.14lbs / 680.00kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1911 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,833 lbs / 6,728 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 465.88 ft / 142.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.1" / 460 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.0" / 255 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.54" / 90 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.39" / 340 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.01 kts
Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,539 tons
Complement:
1,106 - 1,438
Cost:
£2.755 million / $11.021 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,266 tons, 11.3 %
- Guns: 3,266 tons, 11.3 %
Armour: 7,871 tons, 27.3 %
- Belts: 3,031 tons, 10.5 %
- Armament: 2,118 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,450 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 271 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 11.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,667 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,847 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 6 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,717 lbs / 15,294 Kg = 24.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.10 ft / 0.03 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Average freeboard: 18.08 ft / 5.51 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.2 %
Waterplane Area: 45,555 Square feet or 4,232 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 943 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
In the corresponding 1924 reconstruction some changes were made.
- 340mm external belt replaced with 340mm @ 20 degrees internal covering the same height (3.5m)
- Machinery replaced and uprated from 80,000 shp to 115,000 shp yielding 29.01 kn (+2 kn)
- FCS and Radar added (total of 300t misc weight)
- A few additional bilge pumps added (on the order of 4 tons)
- 4 Layer TDS with total depth of 10.6m added (each bulkhead is 25mm thick and has 1.325m or 4.34' of liquid-filled void space)
QuoteIbuki (Reconstructed), IJN Battlecruiser laid down 1911 (Engine 1924)
Displacement:
28,600 t light; 29,987 t standard; 31,926 t normal; 33,477 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(721.98 ft / 718.50 ft) x 95.14 ft (Bulges 110.24 ft) x (28.22 / 29.41 ft)
(220.06 m / 219.00 m) x 29.00 m (Bulges 33.60 m) x (8.60 / 8.96 m)
Armament:
9 - 14.02" / 356 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,499.14lbs / 680.00kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1911 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1920 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 14,833 lbs / 6,728 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 465.88 ft / 142.00 m 12.27 ft / 3.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 20.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
3.94" / 100 mm 465.88 ft / 142.00 m 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 75.46 ft / 23.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.1" / 460 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.0" / 255 mm
2nd: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.54" / 90 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.39" / 340 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 115,000 shp / 85,790 Kw = 29.01 kts
Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,491 tons
Complement:
1,193 - 1,552
Cost:
£2.965 million / $11.860 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,300 tons, 10.3 %
- Guns: 3,300 tons, 10.3 %
Armour: 9,573 tons, 30.0 %
- Belts: 3,239 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,403 tons, 4.4 %
- Armament: 2,191 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,450 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 290 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,788 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,635 tons, 36.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,326 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 304 tons, 1.0 %
- Hull below water: 4 tons
- Above deck: 300 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,375 lbs / 17,407 Kg = 27.9 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 18.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.503
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.10 ft / 0.03 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Average freeboard: 19.39 ft / 5.91 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.5 %
Waterplane Area: 45,548 Square feet or 4,232 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 981 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.21
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
I tried creating an alternative to the Fletcher class. As compared:
40% increase in standard displacement
20% increase in 5" gun armament (also 5"/54 vs 5"/38)
that is a 51% increase in throw weight (not to mention accuracy and range)
60% increase in light AA armament
50% increase in Torpedo armament (also 24" vs 21")
50% increase in endurance (8,221nm vs 5,500nm @ 15kn)
Lost of 1 kn in top speed
Probably better seakeeping/stability than the Fletcher
Like the OTL Fletcher, it carries a small amount of armor over the turrets, magazines, and machinery spaces to prevent splinters formed by bomb hits 30yds out from penetrating the bulkheads and causing severe flooding.
QuoteFletcher Alt, USN Destroyer laid down 1941
Displacement:
2,690 t light; 2,868 t standard; 3,416 t normal; 3,855 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(458.16 ft / 449.15 ft) x 39.04 ft x (17.06 / 18.43 ft)
(139.65 m / 136.90 m) x 11.90 m x (5.20 / 5.62 m)
Armament:
6 - 5.00" / 127 mm 54.0 cal guns - 69.45lbs / 31.50kg shells, 300 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1941 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 1.98lbs / 0.90kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1941 Model
4 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1941 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 453 lbs / 205 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.51" / 13 mm 0.51" / 13 mm 0.51" / 13 mm
2nd: 0.51" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.51" / 13 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.51" / 13 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 0.51" / 13 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 60,000 shp / 44,760 Kw = 35.52 kts
Range 4,500nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 987 tons
Complement:
223 - 290
Cost:
£2.206 million / $8.824 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 122 tons, 3.6 %
- Guns: 122 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 103 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 83 tons, 2.4 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,522 tons, 44.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 803 tons, 23.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 726 tons, 21.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 140 tons, 4.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 90 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
951 lbs / 431 Kg = 15.2 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.417
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.66 ft / 0.20 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Average freeboard: 15.81 ft / 4.82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 159.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.7 %
Waterplane Area: 11,201 Square feet or 1,041 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 195 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weight - 140t:
25t - Radar
25t - FCS
90t - 3 x 5 610mm Torpedo Tubes rotating centerline, 1 reload each
A Yubari that isn't overstressed and unstable.
QuoteYubari, IJN Light Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
4,090 t light; 4,262 t standard; 4,648 t normal; 4,957 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(458.89 ft / 453.41 ft) x 44.62 ft x (18.70 / 19.55 ft)
(139.87 m / 138.20 m) x 13.60 m x (5.70 / 5.96 m)
Armament:
8 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 88.63lbs / 40.20kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1922 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
Weight of broadside 709 lbs / 322 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.50" / 38 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 134 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.51" / 13 mm -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 50,000 shp / 37,300 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 695 tons
Complement:
280 - 365
Cost:
£1.242 million / $4.967 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 169 tons, 3.6 %
- Guns: 169 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 432 tons, 9.3 %
- Belts: 226 tons, 4.9 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 190 tons, 4.1 %
Machinery: 1,696 tons, 36.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,769 tons, 38.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 558 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 0.5 %
- On freeboard deck: 24 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,991 lbs / 1,357 Kg = 35.7 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.430 / 0.439
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Average freeboard: 16.46 ft / 5.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 133.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.3 %
Waterplane Area: 12,704 Square feet or 1,180 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 79 lbs/sq ft or 386 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.06
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weight: 24t
24t - 2x2 610mm Torpedo tubes rotating centerline, 1 reload each
I like how quad turrets look.
This design uses heavy APs for the 155 main battery and lightweight rounds for the high velocity 115mm DPs.
The 40mms are concentrated amidships near the funnels and can be substituted with any equivalent AA weaponry.
Their firing arcs are sacrificed in lieu of the 115s, whom are presumed to do the majority of the AA work.
Technically this design should be using a transom stern as it's based on the IRL Brooklyn class, but that isn't in the rule set IIRC. The 115s would also look somewhat similar to the 130mm quad DP turrets on the Dunkerque, but downsized and with a reasonable shell weight for AA work. The 130mm quad on Dunkerque seems to be roughly 5m wide from pictures, just a bit wider than the USN 5"/38 twin(~4.6m). A 115mm/60 turret should be roughly the size of the 5"/38 but with a much longer (+2m) barrel.
QuoteS1, L Light Cruiser laid down 1930
Displacement:
12,125 t light; 12,740 t standard; 14,000 t normal; 15,008 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(590.55 ft / 590.55 ft) x 68.90 ft x (24.08 / 25.38 ft)
(180.00 m / 180.00 m) x 21.00 m x (7.34 / 7.74 m)
Armament:
16 - 6.10" / 155 mm 60.0 cal guns - 134.48lbs / 61.00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model
4 x 4-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.53" / 115 mm 60.0 cal guns - 47.40lbs / 21.50kg shells, 300 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model
4 x 4-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.20lbs / 1.00kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
4 x Quad mounts on sides, aft deck forward
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,945 lbs / 1,336 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.10" / 155 mm 383.86 ft / 117.00 m 12.20 ft / 3.72 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 20.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 6.10" / 155 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 6.10" / 155 mm, Aft 1.97" / 50 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 106,369 shp / 79,351 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,269 tons
Complement:
643 - 836
Cost:
£5.157 million / $20.627 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,103 tons, 7.9 %
- Guns: 1,103 tons, 7.9 %
Armour: 2,744 tons, 19.6 %
- Belts: 1,192 tons, 8.5 %
- Armament: 641 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 810 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Towers: 101 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,223 tons, 23.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,830 tons, 34.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,875 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 224 tons, 1.6 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- On freeboard deck: 84 tons
- Above deck: 125 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,676 lbs / 7,564 Kg = 146.8 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.509
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.23 ft / 7.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 184.4 %
Waterplane Area: 27,112 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 606 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
3.5m belt inclined 20 degrees
Geared drives = 15 kt @ 8,800nm
Above Deck:
100t FCS
25t Radar
On Deck:
80t: 2 floatplane catapult, planes, and hangar
4t: 2 "Y" twin-DC throwers with spares
Below water:
15t: Early sonar & keel dome
I like quads for a lot of things but am not using them in this iteration of the sim.
Nice to see you, hope all's well.
The addition of transoms to the ruleset is being considered along with other 1930 techs. As part of that I put together the best sim of Brooklyn that I could determine. The weird USN cruiser belt designs is proving problematic, Well, to be fair the HMS Aresthusa is proving difficult to model- but the hull shape/shp definitely points to the 'transom, small'setting.
I've started my journey towards a Brooklyn-style vessel with 165mm & 115mm with heavyweight shells, the Poulsek Class. Only 8,000 tons with Mount & Hoist to fit inside our cruiser rules, but 32knots and a broadside of 8 x 165mm, but a forward fire of 8x165mm as well !
As for Quad turrets, in this iteration, I decided to explore them. Normally I like Two-gun and Three-gun ships.
But most 'Parthian' capital ships are sporting Four-Gun Quads now.
For cruisers, there is substantial benefit to falling under the 'cruiser rules' and using M&H.
Rotating weight argues against triples and quads with M&H if I want the mounts armored, which I do.
So no Quads in that size range - yet.