SMS Derfflinger, Deutsche Reich Panzerkreuzer laid down 1921
Displacement:
9,000 t light; 9,464 t standard; 10,710 t normal; 11,707 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 62.34 ft x 20.51 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 168.00 m x 19.00 m x 6.25 m
Armament:
8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 275.58lbs / 125.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,249 lbs / 1,020 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 199
8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 366.63 ft / 111.75 m 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.38" / 35 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 74,000 shp / 55,204 Kw = 30.18 kts
Range 8,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,242 tons
Complement:
526 - 684
Cost:
£2.325 million / $9.301 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 288 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 1,736 tons, 16.2 %
- Belts: 746 tons, 7.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 349 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 601 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,548 tons, 23.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,077 tons, 38.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,710 tons, 16.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 3.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,965 lbs / 5,427 Kg = 42.3 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.84 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.47 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,579 Square feet or 2,191 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 109 lbs/sq ft or 533 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921
Displacement:
11,000 t light; 11,436 t standard; 12,135 t normal; 12,694 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 21.16 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m x 6.45 m
Armament:
8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 275.58lbs / 125.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,293 lbs / 1,040 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 358.27 ft / 109.20 m 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 192.91 ft / 58.80 m 10.01 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 7.09" / 180 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 30.10 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,257 tons
Complement:
577 - 751
Cost:
£2.588 million / $10.353 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 293 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 2,921 tons, 24.1 %
- Belts: 1,398 tons, 11.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 674 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 769 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 81 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,755 tons, 22.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,681 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,135 tons, 9.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,095 lbs / 6,847 Kg = 53.4 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.2 %
Waterplane Area: 26,383 Square feet or 2,451 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 576 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
It's easy to choose,
A mixture of them :D :D :D
4T2x210
2x88
B120
T150
D35
30kts
8500nm@12kts
Derfflinger look
Jef ;)
Blucher is a tough nut - but range will be bit light for many
Really depends on Theatre of Ops - Blucher as is for Baltic or Med - otherwise need to increase bunkerage
How about the first's bunkerage and other attributes on the second hull?
If I am forced to purchase a 8" gunned ship, the first one.
Quote from: P3D on February 17, 2011, 01:38:21 PM
If I am forced to purchase a 8" gunned ship, the first one.
How about a 9.45" gunned ship?
SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921
Displacement:
11,000 t light; 11,580 t standard; 12,810 t normal; 13,794 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 22.28 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m x 6.79 m
Armament:
9 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,859 lbs / 1,750 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.71" / 145 mm 358.27 ft / 109.20 m 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 192.91 ft / 58.80 m 10.01 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.10" / 155 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 5.71" / 145 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 6.10" / 155 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 61,663 shp / 46,000 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,213 tons
Complement:
601 - 782
Cost:
£2.774 million / $11.095 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 485 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 2,849 tons, 22.2 %
- Belts: 1,357 tons, 10.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 651 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 770 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,123 tons, 16.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,193 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,810 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,796 lbs / 7,619 Kg = 39.8 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.514
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.4 %
Waterplane Area: 26,417 Square feet or 2,454 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 631 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
I like the last design except for one thing she is large enough to need defense against TB and DD. So she probably needs to get just a little bit bigger and add say 4 secondary guns per side something in a 4" to 5" gun.
I think I had a similar design somewhere on around 13K tons with a bunch of 127mm/L51 guns.
Charles
With the 240, add 8x120 vs DDs
Your ship is now slower- just 28kts
Jef
Quote from: Jefgte on February 17, 2011, 04:29:59 PM
Your ship is now slower- just 28kts
Jef
Something had to give.
That nine guns are adequate against destroyers, but not against (M)TBs - add a few more 8.8s instead.
I prefer a pure AoN armor scheme for cruisers. And cut main belt height to ~3m - they are to protect vitals, not buoyancy. So no end belt.
30kts should not cost you that much, you can increase draught a bit more.
And they would be perfect counter to whatever 8" cruisers Nobody wants to build for Orange.
SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921
Displacement:
11,000 t light; 11,610 t standard; 12,840 t normal; 13,824 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 22.47 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m x 6.85 m
Armament:
9 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,141 lbs / 1,878 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 382.22 ft / 116.50 m 10.01 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 83,110 shp / 62,000 Kw = 30.14 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,215 tons
Complement:
603 - 784
Cost:
£3.112 million / $12.450 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 520 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 2,072 tons, 16.1 %
- Belts: 761 tons, 5.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 488 tons, 3.8 %
- Armour Deck: 767 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,862 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,195 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,840 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,711 lbs / 5,766 Kg = 30.1 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.01 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.24 ft / 6.17 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.5 %
Waterplane Area: 26,337 Square feet or 2,447 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 633 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
This one is well balanced.
Jef
quite concur ;D
I like it. Seems like a good counter to some of the NS cruisers. Guess I need to rethink some of my plans as well...
Very similar to the NS Interceptor class, course the Interceptors are better looking...
Quote from: Desertfox on February 18, 2011, 09:48:49 AM
Very similar to the NS Interceptor class, course the Interceptors are better looking...
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/Sachmle/SMSBlcher1921.jpg)
SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921
Displacement:
11,000 t light; 11,610 t standard; 12,840 t normal; 13,824 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
556.10 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 22.47 ft (normal load)
169.50 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m x 6.85 m
Armament:
9 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,141 lbs / 1,878 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 382.22 ft / 116.50 m 10.01 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 83,110 shp / 62,000 Kw = 30.14 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,215 tons
Complement:
603 - 784
Cost:
£3.112 million / $12.450 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 520 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 2,070 tons, 16.1 %
- Belts: 761 tons, 5.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 486 tons, 3.8 %
- Armour Deck: 767 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,862 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,197 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,840 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,744 lbs / 5,781 Kg = 30.2 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.60 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.95 ft / 7.30 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.04 ft / 6.11 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.5 %
Waterplane Area: 26,337 Square feet or 2,447 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 635 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.73
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
My concern is: is this thing's range sufficient for charging around the Pacific and Indian Oceans hunting down enemy cruisers? 7500 at 15 knots equals what, about 4000 at 18, 2500 at 20 (just guessing).
It was endurance more than anything else that drove Wheeler's displacement up. That's a ship that would be well disposed in a 1v1 matchup with this ship, btw (just sayin'). To me, a ship with 24cm guns needs thicker and taller belts.
I do recognize that economy dictates stopping at some size, however, and it's nice that this ship comes in under 170m.
Niice. 8)
QuoteTo me, a ship with 24cm guns needs thicker and taller belts.
Keep in mind, that this ship is not a shrunk armored cruiser, with balanced armor/armament. Rather, a protected/light cruiser that got bigger, armored only against 6" (and long-range 8"), but with guns against other armored cruisers. Effectively a "Washington Treaty cruiser" with 24cm guns. With any decent armor and TDS, you are looking at a 14,000t+ ship that would be longer than 170m.
The ship is indeed similar to, but considerably (1700t) lighter than the Interceptors, the main difference being the smaller extent of armor.
All quite true, I suppose. I still wonder if a a more extensively armored side at the expense of armor thickness might not be a better compromise. A 75mm belt ought to be sufficient to stop up to 6" shells fired at long ranges or oblique angles, and could be at least a meter taller.
Sam and I were discussing his Ship and the New UNK Armored Cruiser and the logical ship to compare them too was indeed the Wheeler. I guess the range to run around hunting Raiders in such is a good need but it is dependend upon just how far apart your ports are located, and the availability of refueling ships.
As an Example the UNK cruiser is only set for operations between the UNK and North America basically the Atlantic Ocean It doesnt need Pacific Ocean ranges.
105mm guns are now too light vs DDs & TBs
IMO, use 120mm guns is a better choice.
Jef
Quote from: Jefgte on February 19, 2011, 11:15:42 AM
105mm guns are now too light vs DDs & TBs
IMO, use 120mm guns is a better choice.
Jef
???
Against DDs the main armament would be used, against <500t TBs the 10.5cm is not only more than adequate but better (single-piece ammo).
The Wheeler comparison is good in the contrast only. With the high speed, that extra armor does not cost that much extra.
ROF of the 240mm is too slow vs DDs attack.
105 have a short range.
ROF & range; 120mm is the better choice.
Jef
If I wanted a Wheeler sized ship, I would use something like this.
SMS Lützow, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,862 t standard; 19,580 t normal; 20,955 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
633.20 ft / 623.36 ft x 87.27 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
193.00 m / 190.00 m x 26.60 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
12 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (4x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 19.84lbs / 9.00kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,530 lbs / 2,508 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 470.80 ft / 143.50 m 11.22 ft / 3.42 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 116 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 470.80 ft / 143.50 m 20.90 ft / 6.37 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 104,558 shp / 78,000 Kw = 30.03 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,093 tons
Complement:
826 - 1,075
Cost:
£4.286 million / $17.142 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 696 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 4,343 tons, 22.2 %
- Belts: 1,304 tons, 6.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 573 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 993 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,381 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 92 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,600 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,011 tons, 40.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,580 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,945 lbs / 11,768 Kg = 61.5 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.55 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.23 ft / 7.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179.2 %
Waterplane Area: 37,913 Square feet or 3,522 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 724 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Quote from: Jefgte on February 19, 2011, 03:21:34 PM
ROF of the 240mm is too slow vs DDs attack.
105 have a short range.
ROF & range; 120mm is the better choice.
Jef
My reasoning is that at 10+km distances, the 24cm gun will hit targets, while it is at the limit of effective range for the 10.5 and 12cm guns*. Moreover, the practical ROF of the 12cm gun won't be any higher than what could be expected the 24cm gun at those distances (3-5RPM) as one would have to wait to spot where the shell actually fell.
Below 10km, the 10.5cm guns are just as fine as the 12cm ones, but they have higher ROF with single-piece ammo (and easier to load manually in bad weather).
*: with the rule of thumb that the fall of a X cm diameter shell can be spotted (optically) up to X km distance
Quote from: ctwaterman on February 19, 2011, 06:46:38 AM
Sam and I were discussing his Ship and the New UNK Armored Cruiser and the logical ship to compare them too was indeed the Wheeler. I guess the range to run around hunting Raiders in such is a good need but it is dependend upon just how far apart your ports are located, and the availability of refueling ships.
As an Example the UNK cruiser is only set for operations between the UNK and North America basically the Atlantic Ocean It doesnt need Pacific Ocean ranges.
I generally view these matters through the lense of 'What is the OPFOR' ? If Prussia is unlikely to face the CSA, then the Wheeler isn't necessarily relevant. I'd be looking at the ships I'm more likely to be facing in times of trouble. If the OPFOR is the New Swiss Olympia class the desired vessel may be different than what you want for a Morai Rapid fire or Dutch Willem Janszson.
Bavaria does have to consider Hapsburg and Prussian ships, and for a far lesser degree French and Italian. Even lacking "real" data, broad parameters can be guessed by reverse engineering requirements. The
Prinzrejent Luitpold is slightly bigger and very quaint in gunnery arrangement, but the
Blucher only has an IZ between @11.5-13km. The PrzL's high upper belt artificially thickens the main deck due to the plunging angle needed to clear it, so the faster, more modern ship would have a problem. Likewise the
Lutzow is more modern than the
Donar, but has NO IZ, while the
Donar would have one to the 9.45" guns.
To me, that means these vessels are only dangerous to my
Leipzig Class, but being much younger and two-three times larger, that is not suprising. Even then, there is only a 2knot speed advantage, so presuming clean hulls, it's a 2-3 hr stern chase from spotting distance to maximum FC range- and working in tropical waters I would think would make Prussian hulls foul quicker. A late afternoon encounter could easily turn into a evening escape.
ed. Actually, this is where I think end belts matter. Chasing a
Leipzig it would be shelling you with HE as much as possible, in the hopes of opening your forward hull and causing flooding- forcing you to slow down
Quote from: P3D on February 19, 2011, 04:48:23 PM
My reasoning is that at 10+km distances, the 24cm gun will hit targets, while it is at the limit of effective range for the 10.5 and 12cm guns*. Moreover, the practical ROF of the 12cm gun won't be any higher than what could be expected the 24cm gun at those distances (3-5RPM) as one would have to wait to spot where the shell actually fell.
Below 10km, the 10.5cm guns are just as fine as the 12cm ones, but they have higher ROF with single-piece ammo (and easier to load manually in bad weather).
*: with the rule of thumb that the fall of a X cm diameter shell can be spotted (optically) up to X km distance
Well, my little comparison of 18cm vs. 15cm seemed to support this, as the slower ROF was compensated for by the greater range, not accounting for the 1 shot/1 kill of the 18cm vs. 1-2shots/kill of the 15cm.