Here is my crack at a 35,000 ton design. Not saying I will build it, just playing around to see what my options are. I need to build something after the two BB-1918's are done.
Someone had math to cover how much draught changes as the fuel bunkers are run dry. What is that?
Michael
QuoteAC 1922-B, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
34,999 t light; 36,633 t standard; 40,101 t normal; 42,876 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.20 m
Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12,173 lbs / 5,521 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 9.84" / 250 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 29.58 kts
Range 16,930nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,244 tons
Complement:
1,416 - 1,841
Cost:
£8.696 million / $34.783 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,522 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 13,654 tons, 34.0 %
- Belts: 6,239 tons, 15.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,938 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 4,128 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 348 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,895 tons, 12.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,979 tons, 34.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,102 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 950 tons, 2.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54,145 lbs / 24,560 Kg = 41.4 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.31 ft / 6.80 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.30 ft / 6.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.4 %
Waterplane Area: 56,682 Square feet or 5,266 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 863 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Full load-Normal load/Waterplane area in Meters= Draft change in meters.
Quote from: Sachmle on February 14, 2011, 07:44:06 AM
Full load-Normal load/Waterplane area in Meters= Draft change in meters.
Full load is 42,876 tons, shouldn't it be bunker load at full load 6,244 tons? Which is the difference between standard and full load?
Well assuming its fuel load / water plane area we get
6,244 tons / 5,266 = 1.185 meters.
With a 5 meter belt that seams functional. I could delete the upper belt all together and put in an even higher main belt but I want the upper belt if at all possible.
Michael
No idea, just rewriting the formula P3D posted earlier. I presume, based on his formula, that the difference between Normal and Full is extra fuel.
A £8.696 million investment with no torpedo defenses? I'd trim that massive upper belt to make room.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on February 14, 2011, 09:25:24 AM
A £8.696 million investment with no torpedo defenses? I'd trim that massive upper belt to make room.
One always forgets something.
Michael
Fixed
QuoteAC 1922-B1, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,595 t standard; 39,767 t normal; 42,305 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.20 m
Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (6x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,761 lbs / 5,335 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 9.84" / 250 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 28.18 ft / 8.59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 29.63 kts
Range 15,480nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,709 tons
Complement:
1,407 - 1,830
Cost:
£8.578 million / $34.311 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,470 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 14,415 tons, 36.2 %
- Belts: 6,240 tons, 15.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 840 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 2,880 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 4,109 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 346 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,895 tons, 12.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,855 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,767 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 365 tons, 0.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,377 lbs / 25,119 Kg = 42.3 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.10 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.8 %
Waterplane Area: 56,418 Square feet or 5,241 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 860 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Length 240m not 220 ??
Quote from: Jefgte on February 15, 2011, 02:54:57 AM
Length 240m not 220 ??
Bilbao (astilleros Euskalduna, Astilleros del Nervion) has a type 4 slipway and a type 4 dry dock.
A Fastish BB design on the same displacement.
Michael
QuoteBB-1922-A, Iberia Battleship laid down 1922 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,984 t standard; 40,399 t normal; 43,131 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
711.94 ft / 711.94 ft x 101.71 ft x 31.50 ft (normal load)
217.00 m / 217.00 m x 31.00 m x 9.60 m
Armament:
8 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,329 lbs / 7,860 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 447.83 ft / 136.50 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 447.83 ft / 136.50 m 27.85 ft / 8.49 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
- Armour deck: 4.72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 25.24 kts
Range 16,910nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,146 tons
Complement:
1,424 - 1,852
Cost:
£9.371 million / $37.486 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,166 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 14,695 tons, 36.4 %
- Belts: 4,422 tons, 10.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 909 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 4,269 tons, 10.6 %
- Armour Deck: 4,716 tons, 11.7 %
- Conning Tower: 379 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,797 tons, 6.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,593 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,398 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,408 lbs / 25,586 Kg = 28.9 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.620
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 20.06 ft / 6.12 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.2 %
Waterplane Area: 53,955 Square feet or 5,013 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 197 lbs/sq ft or 964 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.21
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
a nice superior QE
- but any way to up the steadiness?
Quote from: mentat on February 16, 2011, 06:20:43 AM
a nice superior QE
- but any way to up the steadiness?
Short of a new design only at the cost of stability.
Michael
A stronger QE
QuoteArmour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 447.83 ft / 136.50 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
Ends:
UnarmouredAll or nothing...That's really NOTHING ???
Jef ;)
I like it, maybe I should do one for the MK...
re the steadiness - I was thinking increase beam + reduce draft - gives more stability to trade-off with ..
- but maybe you have some docking restrictions on beam ?
re the End Belt - Protection is already 36% - something has to give
QuoteArmour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 447.83 ft / 136.50 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
IMO, Decrease a little the height to protect the bow vs medium shells & to reduce the hole extension in case of big shell hit. Pumps will thanks you :D :D :D
Jef ;)
I used HMS Nelson as a starting point for a new design.
QuoteBB-1922-C, Iberia Battleship laid down 1922 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,979 t standard; 40,130 t normal; 42,651 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
672.57 ft / 672.57 ft x 107.61 ft x 29.86 ft (normal load)
205.00 m / 205.00 m x 32.80 m x 9.10 m
Armament:
8 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,329 lbs / 7,860 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 235.37 ft / 71.74 m 12.43 ft / 3.79 m
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.4" / 340 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 13.39" / 340 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,001 shp / 59,681 Kw = 24.95 kts
Range 15,530nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,671 tons
Complement:
1,416 - 1,842
Cost:
£9.371 million / $37.486 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,166 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 15,122 tons, 37.7 %
- Belts: 5,897 tons, 14.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 4,042 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,846 tons, 12.1 %
- Conning Tower: 338 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,797 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,403 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,129 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 513 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,681 lbs / 25,710 Kg = 29.0 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.36 ft / 5.90 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 19.93 ft / 6.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.9 %
Waterplane Area: 55,445 Square feet or 5,151 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 197 lbs/sq ft or 964 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Where are...
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm ...m
Jef ;)
I always miss that for some reason.
QuoteBB-1922-C1, Iberia Battleship laid down 1922 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,979 t standard; 40,130 t normal; 42,651 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
672.57 ft / 672.57 ft x 107.61 ft x 29.86 ft (normal load)
205.00 m / 205.00 m x 32.80 m x 9.10 m
Armament:
8 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,329 lbs / 7,860 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 28.67 ft / 8.74 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.4" / 340 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.13" / 105 mm, Conning tower: 13.39" / 340 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,001 shp / 59,681 Kw = 24.95 kts
Range 15,530nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,671 tons
Complement:
1,416 - 1,842
Cost:
£9.371 million / $37.486 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,166 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 15,003 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 5,470 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 913 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 4,042 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,240 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 338 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,797 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,435 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,129 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,661 lbs / 25,701 Kg = 29.0 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 9.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.36 ft / 5.90 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 19.93 ft / 6.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.9 %
Waterplane Area: 55,445 Square feet or 5,151 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 966 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
being greedy I'd want 2 of the Fast 30 knot ones and 2 of the 25 knot Heavy Bruisers
- given your likely opposition - which do you need most??
Iberia is mostly worried about the Netherlands.
There are a number of armored Frigates in Netherlands Service.
2 Tromps, 2 de Ruyter and and unknown number of Arnheim Class
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=675.msg23468#msg23468
So that is Six 27 knot designs. Iberia only has the resources to build 2 large ships at once; anything more would mean no other ships could be built.
Michael
There are actually 3 Tromps. Tromp, Wilhelmina der Nederlanden, and Na h-Eileanan Siar.
Didn't the mods blow one up as an excuse to end the last war?
Michael
Yep.
Precipitated the collapse of the Dutch government and then the peace treaty.
Thought that was an Antwerp Class.
My bad it was Tromp herself. Cool.
Here are the two ships side by side. General Details. Both 35,000 ton Designs. I can only build two ships, the question is which ones.
Michael
Armored Cruiser
4x2 350mm & 8x1 150mm
320mm Belt, 100mm Deck, & 250mm Upper Belt
Speed 29.5 Knots
Battleship4x2 400mm & 8x2 150mm
340mm Belt, 110mm Deck, & 200mm Upper Belt
Speed 24.75 Knots
QuoteAC 1922-B3, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,561 t standard; 39,633 t normal; 42,091 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.20 m
Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,349 lbs / 5,148 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 9.84" / 250 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 28.18 ft / 8.59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 139,800 shp / 104,291 Kw = 29.64 kts
Range 15,330nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,530 tons
Complement:
1,403 - 1,825
Cost:
£8.402 million / $33.606 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,419 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 14,523 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 6,239 tons, 15.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 840 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 2,997 tons, 7.6 %
- Armour Deck: 4,101 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,742 tons, 12.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,748 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,632 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 570 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,120 lbs / 25,456 Kg = 42.9 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 8.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.593
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.10 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.0 %
Waterplane Area: 56,312 Square feet or 5,232 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 855 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
QuoteBB-1922-C2, Iberia Battleship laid down 1922
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,978 t standard; 40,068 t normal; 42,541 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
672.57 ft / 672.57 ft x 107.61 ft x 29.86 ft (normal load)
205.00 m / 205.00 m x 32.80 m x 9.10 m
Armament:
8 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,329 lbs / 7,860 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 437.17 ft / 133.25 m 28.67 ft / 8.74 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.4" / 340 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.33" / 110 mm, Conning tower: 13.39" / 340 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,001 shp / 59,681 Kw = 24.96 kts
Range 15,570nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,563 tons
Complement:
1,415 - 1,840
Cost:
£9.340 million / $37.358 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,166 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 15,200 tons, 37.9 %
- Belts: 5,470 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 913 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 4,042 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,438 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Tower: 338 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,714 tons, 6.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,431 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,067 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 490 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,364 lbs / 26,020 Kg = 29.4 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 9.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.649
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.36 ft / 5.90 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 19.93 ft / 6.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.8 %
Waterplane Area: 55,394 Square feet or 5,146 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 966 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
For 1922 projects , It's too early to take the right decision.
Place the 2 projects in your file" To built".
These projects are exellent.
Did you test AC with 3T2x400 A-B-Y ?
Jef ;)
Don't know how much more 'whatever' it will allow you to put on either, but remember
Quote1917: Engine year 1920, Max. non-VTE power 40,000 HP/Shaft, Engine year = year laid down.
means 1920 for the engine year up to 1920, then it's engine year after that. So your 1922 ships would have 1922 engines. May save you a couple hundred tons of engine weight to sink into armor or whatever.
BTW Mike, the last BB you posted only has a 105mm deck, not 120 like the rest. Didn't know if you posted the wrong SS. I like the ACs, they will have a longer useful life I think. 14"(35cm is basically 14") is good enough and 12.6" belt is thicker/thick as
Iowa's OTL belt. 100mm deck may be light for future proof, but you can "refit" her later and add laminated deck armor like the Japanese did, or just rip up the deck and do a 'rebuild' and put all new deck armor in.
OK I updated the engine dates and the BB's deck armor is 110mm. Mostly the extra weight went to misc on the AC.
I am a little reluctant to go crazy on the deck armor without clear cause in game for it. We really have had a lot of long range battles.
I tend to agree that the AC might be more useful in the long run; if nothing else she has armor good enough to stand in the line of battle w/ my current BB's.
Michael
Jef's suggestion on looking at the 'middle ground' is interesting - how about the 3T2 400mm - with 28 knots and heavy as poss armour - a Ship for all Seasons?
in particular the 2 operating together would be plenty powerful - ant totally flexible between Battleline vs Fast Scouting/support Light Forces - Big 28 knot ships can keep pace with smaller 30 knot ships (CLs etc) in normal seaway ...
I agree the Large Armored Cruisers are probably more useful in the Long Run. And since they are armored well enough to stand in your Line of Battle they can fill in as a BB in a pinch.
OK I will see how I can tweak the AC design some more. Will see what 3x2 400mm guns looks like.
I looks like the AC design is the favorite.
It would also give me 4 AC's to go with my 4 BB's in line of battle. So that would be 2 Fernando de Magallanes
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=673.msg26050#msg26050
Plus two of the new design.
All the AC's with at at least 305mm armor; of course the new design has improved KC so its even more effective.
Michael
OK same AC hull with 3x2 400mm guns. I reduced the upper belt to 200mm to provide a thicker torpedo defense and some other changes to the secondaries.
I am not thrilled with the 6 guns for shooting is all.
Michael
QuoteAC 1922-C1, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
35,000 t light; 36,644 t standard; 39,633 t normal; 42,025 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.20 m
Armament:
6 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12,600 lbs / 5,715 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 28.18 ft / 8.59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 139,800 shp / 104,291 Kw = 29.64 kts
Range 14,890nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,382 tons
Complement:
1,403 - 1,825
Cost:
£8.760 million / $35.039 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,575 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 14,146 tons, 35.7 %
- Belts: 5,895 tons, 14.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,051 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 2,755 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 4,101 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,742 tons, 12.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,107 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,633 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 430 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54,889 lbs / 24,897 Kg = 28.1 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.593
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.10 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.0 %
Waterplane Area: 56,312 Square feet or 5,232 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 877 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
This one is exellent, this is not Hood but a "Super Renown"
Just a correction to made Mike, Allianza 400mm gun fire a 1000kg shell. (thanks to Rocky ;) )
Jef ;)
How much speed does a 4th turret cost?
When do you hit a good gun platform- i.e., if the ship is meant for accurate (6 guns) shooting at range (speed) when does it hit good seakeeping/slow role ?
Do you believe 4 x 150mm /side is adequate vs. DDs after the Rift war?
Why the continuance of 200mm armor at all on the upper belt? That seems overkill for protecting against the weapons of virtually all cruisers.
Interestingly, the freeboard at midpoint is 6.3m. Figuring the upperbelt extends to there, the main belt starts at +3.86m and extends to -1.14m. Alternately, the upper belt doesn't extend to the weather deck, but stops 1/2 deck shy.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on February 23, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
How much speed does a 4th turret cost?
See up thread for a 35,000 ton design w/ 4x2 400mm; its 4 - 5 knots.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on February 23, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
When do you hit a good gun platform- i.e., if the ship is meant for accurate (6 guns) shooting at range (speed) when does it hit good seakeeping/slow role ?
No idea
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on February 23, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
Do you believe 4 x 150mm /side is adequate vs. DDs after the Rift war?
Not really, most likely I can put a twin 120mm one to one for a single 150mm. Also the 150mm are full turrets so they should be better at engaging targets.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on February 23, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
Why the continuance of 200mm armor at all on the upper belt? That seems overkill for protecting against the weapons of virtually all cruisers.
Interestingly, the freeboard at midpoint is 6.3m. Figuring the upperbelt extends to there, the main belt starts at +3.86m and extends to -1.14m. Alternately, the upper belt doesn't extend to the weather deck, but stops 1/2 deck shy.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on February 23, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
Why the continuance of 200mm armor at all on the upper belt? That seems overkill for protecting against the weapons of virtually all cruisers.
Interestingly, the freeboard at midpoint is 6.3m. Figuring the upperbelt extends to there, the main belt starts at +3.86m and extends to -1.14m. Alternately, the upper belt doesn't extend to the weather deck, but stops 1/2 deck shy.
The upper belt is to provide protection at range and in particular decap any shell that hits high on the ship. It will then hit a 75mm armor deck sitting on top of the main belt. See Bismark Also I am actually worried about cruiser fire, if I could afford it I would like a 100mm belt along the water line but thats not practical.
As to the height of the upper belt, I went with what looked enough to be the same height as the stern.
Michael
Well, I get the idea behind the upper belt better now. It's occurred to me that one of the oddities of the Princeregent Luitpold design is the extremely tall upper belt to protect the casements also means plunging fire will almost certainly hit that before the deck, which means it's deck is more robust than expected.
Twin 120mm would help more, but where I considered the problem to lie was getting sufficient rounds of sufficient mass down range to stop a DD charge. This ship can't quite run away, and if operating around Manila could wind up in island fights. Of course, she will likely have escorts.
I think it's a bit early to be actively considering decapping as a defense, and frankly a 100mm upper belt would do that job, and spare the weight for the end belts, while thwarting 6"- at likely ranges.
The reason I asked about sea state is with 6x400, one hopes it's accurate, so the more you can do for that the better. Of course different designers have different preferences.
On the 4th turret- forgot that :)
The aft freeboard of 6m is better, but still only gives a depth below WL of 1.44m.
I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.
I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.
Quote from: Guinness on February 23, 2011, 07:49:34 PM
I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.
That is a far point, I like armor though and I personally don't think 100mm is thick enough to be useful for an upper belt.
The point is sorta moot also as we have no way to simulate the decaping effect of the upper belt for plunging fire or determine if a shell hits main, upper or ends.
Quote from: Guinness on February 23, 2011, 07:49:34 PM
I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.
140mm is too close to my 150mm, no real point for me to drop down to that; its 120mm or 150mm.
Michael
Quote from: Guinness on February 23, 2011, 07:49:34 PM
I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.
I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.
Oh You mean the Italia 127mm/L51 with the 50# shell
Quote from: ctwaterman on February 23, 2011, 09:25:03 PM
Quote from: Guinness on February 23, 2011, 07:49:34 PM
I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.
I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.
Oh You mean the Italia 127mm/L51 with the 50# shell
No, I think he meant the Krupps 12cm/45 SK/L45 w/ a 24kg shell or the 13cm/45 SK/L45 w/ the 30kg shell. ;)
Increased Torp Defense to 50mm, switched to 8x2 120mm in place of 8x1 150mm. Decreased upper belt from 250mm to 200mm.
Michael
QuoteAC 1922-B3, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,567 t standard; 39,700 t normal; 42,207 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.20 m
Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,368 lbs / 5,157 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 7.87" / 200 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 28.18 ft / 8.59 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 140,001 shp / 104,441 Kw = 29.64 kts
Range 15,300nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,641 tons
Complement:
1,406 - 1,828
Cost:
£8.466 million / $33.862 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,421 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 14,501 tons, 36.5 %
- Belts: 5,929 tons, 14.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,051 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 3,071 tons, 7.7 %
- Armour Deck: 4,105 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,895 tons, 12.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,774 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,699 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 410 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,822 lbs / 25,320 Kg = 42.7 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 8.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.594
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.10 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.8 %
Waterplane Area: 56,365 Square feet or 5,236 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 856 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
IMO, the thickness of the upper belt is too much.
200mm is too much to stop medium shells & not enough vs heavy shell.
150 to 120mm is enough.
Like I wrote early, unarmoured bow is dangerous in battle. Add 120 or 150mm armor to reduce flooding.
Your BC is not named Osliabia or Lutzow!!!
Jef ;)
Your 2 current ACs were very good in their day - but looking bit small + underpower now - so think 2 spanking new ones makes sense
Design looks great - my only thoughts - agree UB bit OTT - but MB could be thicker - go to 340 mm? - or sim more Splinter protection for Mags
+ any way to up Steadiness - increase Beam - reduce Draft for more Stab. + trade-off on the Trim?
- poss more Secs - either 12 x 150mm or 20 x 120mm ??
Reduced upper belt.
People might find this of interest, I did.
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/technicallayout/armour/armour.html
Michael
QuoteAC 1922-B4, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922
Displacement:
35,001 t light; 36,565 t standard; 39,633 t normal; 42,088 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.20 m
Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,368 lbs / 5,157 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: 2.95" / 75 mm 275.56 ft / 83.99 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 511.81 ft / 156.00 m 28.38 ft / 8.65 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 139,800 shp / 104,291 Kw = 29.64 kts
Range 15,310nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,523 tons
Complement:
1,403 - 1,825
Cost:
£8.407 million / $33.629 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,421 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 14,484 tons, 36.5 %
- Belts: 5,909 tons, 14.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,058 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 3,071 tons, 7.7 %
- Armour Deck: 4,101 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 4,742 tons, 12.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,893 tons, 35.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,633 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 460 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,587 lbs / 25,667 Kg = 43.3 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 8.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.593
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.10 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.0 %
Waterplane Area: 56,312 Square feet or 5,232 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 864 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
I've always found it interesting that the armor for the steering gears (110mm directly over + 50mm deck above) is thicker than the protection for the machinery/magazines (95mm + 50mm). Seems counterproductive to me to have an exploded ship you can steer.
QuoteThe point is sorta moot also as we have no way to simulate the decaping effect of the upper belt for plunging fire or determine if a shell hits main, upper or ends.
Don't hurry me! I'm trying but the physics is making me barf all over the place :-(
Quote from: Logi on February 24, 2011, 12:51:12 PM
QuoteThe point is sorta moot also as we have no way to simulate the decaping effect of the upper belt for plunging fire or determine if a shell hits main, upper or ends.
Don't hurry me! I'm trying but the physics is making me barf all over the place :-(
The solution is custom to-hit tables for each ship. The problem is creating them and needing 3 each or so for each ship.
Short Range - trajectory will be flat no plunging deck hits.
Medium Range - again a mostly flat trajectory with some plunging hits but at poor impact angles. So bonus to deck armor effective thickness.
Long Range - steep impact trajectories with deck hits very likely.
Michael