Perhaps it is safer for the Swiss to send their goods via Japan (or Korea and Hainan to be more precise) and thus avoiding most of the dangerous waters along the Chinese coastline.
Perhaps the Swiss just want an escort so they can know where RRC/MK units are so their subs can attack them. And while the subs attack the RRC/MK naval vessels the "merchant" ships carrying Swiss supplies uncover their 6" batteries, since they'll probably really be AMCs. Of course some will just be loaded with explosives and placed as close as possible to any Chinese capital ships/larger cruisers nearby.
Or they just want to make a quick buck with a double standard.
It's hard to tell, with the Swiss.
I think that that is right. The humanitarian aid one sends to a nation to help them out should cost nothing, yet the Swiss are asking money for it. Therefor Japan hopes that the Swiss will use the safety of Japan's soil to move those goods into MK/RRC so the Japanese can put a hefty transport and import tax on it which the Swiss will need to pay. :D
Quote from: Sachmle on November 15, 2010, 09:59:13 AM
Perhaps the Swiss just want an escort so they can know where RRC/MK units are so their subs can attack them. And while the subs attack the RRC/MK naval vessels the "merchant" ships carrying Swiss supplies uncover their 6" batteries, since they'll probably really be AMCs. Of course some will just be loaded with explosives and placed as close as possible to any Chinese capital ships/larger cruisers nearby.
(Looks around) Cruisers? Capital Ships? I have those???
Quote from: snip on November 15, 2010, 11:13:02 AM
(Looks around) Cruisers? Capital Ships? I have those???
Why yes. You have Shengzi, Wusheng, and Weiheng (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=915.msg6179#msg6179). Plus I was referring to BOTH Chinas when I said Chinese. Swiss don't care what flag you're flying, you're still Chinese.
I swear, I thought they were razor blades.
Dont Worry I will be asking Nations to attatch a real $$$$ sign to any aid they are sending. I know Green Cross dontations have always been in $$$ so I have no intentions of making aide free especially if someone wants real Benefits from it.
Charles
New Swiss ships are barred from Dutch and NOI patrolled waters under the 1919 Naval Law and are considered pirates. They KNOW this.
NvR.
Quote from: damocles on November 15, 2010, 08:20:56 PM
New Swiss ships are barred from Dutch and NOI patrolled waters under the 1919 Naval Law and are considered pirates. They KNOW this.
NvR.
That's grounds for war for almost every civilized power. If the Dutch do it to the NS, what's to stop them from doing it to Gran Columbia. It's one thing if it was related to the war, but quite another if it's a law....seems like it's time to liberate some colonies....
Really.... grounds for war... Why ?????
Remember right now the New Swiss have as of November/December 1919 a Cease Fire and only a cease Fire with Italia. Nations who have deep seated disagreements with each other have usually showed their displeasure by denything their "Enemeis" the right to use their ports and territorial waters.
The Republic of Orange from the End of the 1st Rift War until now has been denied the right of innocent passage in Italia territorial waters, nor did there merchant ships have the right to use Italia Territorial waters or Ports ???? Discussions between The Republic of Orange and Italia only recently resumed at the Consular Level in Paris prior to the 2nd Caldera Cup Races.
If you think this is cause for War well its usually one of the first things a nation does before declaring a war. So yes its a sure sign that diplomatic relations are in a very very poor state. And why cant a Country decide who can and cant use thier territorial waters ???? If a nation feels or know that another nation was a nation of Pirates and Criminal Corporations masquarding as a government why shouldnt they ban commerce with that nation.
This is not a support of the Dutch action just saying its a nations right to determine who they will allow into their territorial waters. Its not a nice action but it is legal. The International treaties call for the owning nation to regulate thier waters. The Dutch regulated the New Swiss right out of them and have been doing so since the 1st or 2nd Pacific War.
What does Dutch waters have to do with anything? Last I checked NS to China does not go through the DEI...
Mid-December
The New Switzerland government calls on the two warring Chinese states to declare a general cease-fire and open their ports to aid ships, of which New Switzerland is willing to be part off. Also the Swiss government offers to host a peace conference with the intention of ending this dreadful war and sparring the civilian populations of both countries.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on November 15, 2010, 09:35:10 PM
Quote from: damocles on November 15, 2010, 08:20:56 PM
New Swiss ships are barred from Dutch and NOI patrolled waters under the 1919 Naval Law and are considered pirates. They KNOW this.
NvR.
That's grounds for war for almost every civilized power. If the Dutch do it to the NS, what's to stop them from doing it to Gran Columbia. It's one thing if it was related to the war, but quite another if it's a law....seems like it's time to liberate some colonies....
Masirah.
Quote from: Desertfox on November 15, 2010, 10:57:20 PM
What does Dutch waters have to do with anything? Last I checked NS to China does not go through the DEI...
Oil and coal refueling from Dutch sources for New Swiss shops are also banned under the naval law. Checked a Pacific resource map lately?
Umm... What does that have to do with China again?
QuoteWhat does Dutch waters have to do with anything? Last I checked NS to China does not go through the DEI...
Quite right. It goes through Japan. The fact that
I am Dutch does not make the Japanese waters Dutch. :)
Seems to me NS Grain shipments from Australia would go through one of the straits controlled by the NS up towards the PI and then to China anything from the New Swiss home Islands to the PI or through Japanese controlled waters.
Charles
Japan has no coal or oil near you. Neither do the Philippines. Checked your tech tree and cruising radii.
No coal, no oil, no explosive packed ships to send to Dalian as 'merchants'.
Oh yes, the MVB is investigating.... :-X
One cannot ban the merchant vessels and warships of another nation from operating in International Waters. So, unless the Dutch are claiming ALL Ocean and Seas inside the area known as the NOI are Dutch (which even in those tight waters there is more than 6nm between landmasses in a lot of places) then saying that the Swiss are banned from the NOI is ludicrous.
Quote from: Sachmle on November 16, 2010, 05:17:47 PM
One cannot ban the merchant vessels and warships of another nation from operating in International Waters. So, unless the Dutch are claiming ALL Ocean and Seas inside the area known as the NOI are Dutch (which even in those tight waters there is more than 6nm between landmasses in a lot of places) then saying that the Swiss are banned from the NOI is ludicrous.
That is not the correct interpretation of the 1919 Naval Law. "No refuel, no resupply, no navigational assistance, no food, no water, no assistance in any form whatsoever is to be extended to New Swiss aircraft or ships or personnel;. Any NS ships, aircraft, or personnel caught in Dutch air, land, and sea-space are assumed HOSTILE with only warlike intent. They will be seized. Any New Swiss that approaches a Dutch vessel or aircraft is assumed HOSTILE and is challenged and ordered to stand clear."
That is what the Naval Law actually says as regards the New Swiss
OH...I must have missed this Naval Law. Is it posted somewhere?
I still have no idea what this has to do with China or my news... ???
Hmmmm are you not selling Coal and Oil to other nations because they might resell it to the New Swiss.... And since we are obviously in a fantasy world and New Switzerland has an industrial economy they obviously have access to coal.
The Japanese have the huge coal fields of Manchuria!
Charles
Quote from: damocles on November 16, 2010, 05:28:39 AM
Quote from: TexanCowboy on November 15, 2010, 09:35:10 PM
Quote from: damocles on November 15, 2010, 08:20:56 PM
New Swiss ships are barred from Dutch and NOI patrolled waters under the 1919 Naval Law and are considered pirates. They KNOW this.
NvR.
That's grounds for war for almost every civilized power. If the Dutch do it to the NS, what's to stop them from doing it to Gran Columbia. It's one thing if it was related to the war, but quite another if it's a law....seems like it's time to liberate some colonies....
Masirah.
And so you block all Swiss trade for eternity, because of a one month, for the Dutch, war? That's just stupid....and sets a dangerous precedent, one that might take preemptive action to stop...
yes, very dangerous ground your treading on there
Funny thing, there was no war really between NS and the Dutch. We didn't even see each other.
*Chuckles*... I dont know how long was the Republic of Orange and Italia at war.... a week :) There is no Naval Law banning Orange Merchants and Warships from Italia Waters. There is simply an Imperial Edict ;)
The reasons are many but it simply came down to a conflict of interest between the Orange Republic and Italia. At the time the Empire was looking to expand its East African holdings and apparently so were the people in South Africa. They wanted to purchase Italia East African Holdings and the Empire was unwilling to sell. And was quite willing to hide behind its alliance parteners to hold off the much larger Republic of Orange. When the Republic of Orange attacked the Empire over the "New Zion Incident" well diplomatic relations plumitted to Zero.
International Pressure to make peace forced a peace but why would the Empire allow Innocent Passage for Orange ships of Italia Waters or the use of our Ports to a nation that had attacked Imperial Warships on patrol ???? The same could be said of New Switzerland right now.
So I see no legal reason why the Dutch actions are unwarranted. Nations may choose who they donot do buisness with and may pass legislation to regulate trade, commerce and passage of non neutral ships through their territorial waters.
If you want to change the dutch nations mind well their are options to do so... one of which is War.
Its like the US and Russia in the cold war, Russian ships didnt just pass through US territorial waters without prior notice or dock in US ports.
Charles
Quote from: ctwaterman on November 16, 2010, 08:17:26 PM
Hmmmm are you not selling Coal and Oil to other nations because they might resell it to the New Swiss.... And since we are obviously in a fantasy world and New Switzerland has an industrial economy they obviously have access to coal.
The Japanese have the huge coal fields of Manchuria!
Charles
1. The New Swiss have to reach Japan to buy it.
QuoteFunny thing, there was no war really between NS and the Dutch. We didn't even see each other.
OOC.
There has been a LOT of Nverse Dutch/NS hostile action that was behind the scenes history dating back to before the Siam War. Dutch joke, What do the Dutch sell the New Swiss? The bullets that we use to shoot them, the shovels that they use to dig their own graves, and the coffins that we put them in (we charge for that.). The Dutch do give the New Swiss a special deal on backfilling the graves and tamping the dirt. That the Dutch will do for them free.
IC.
Nicholas van Rijn and the NOI Moslem Brotherhood hate the New Swiss' guts and with good reason.
And what's to stop them from similiarly randomly hating GC, and Iberia, and the rest of SC.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on November 16, 2010, 10:34:53 PM
And what's to stop them from similiarly randomly hating GC, and Iberia, and the rest of SC.
Those nations did not double-cross the Dutch.
Quote1. The New Swiss have to reach Japan to buy it.
Umm... we are like next door neighbors, and I have plenty of coal in Australia, and some oil in my side of Indonesia.
QuoteOOC.
There has been a LOT of Nverse Dutch/NS hostile action that was behind the scenes history dating back to before the Siam War.
That I understand perfectly. But using Masirah as an excuse? That is just frikin hilarious.
QuoteIC.
Nicholas van Rijn and the NOI Moslem Brotherhood hate the New Swiss' guts and with good reason.
The Dutch, I understand, but why the hell would ANY Muslim hate NS?
QuoteThose nations did not double-cross the Dutch.
Neither did I, unlike the Dutch who did double-cross me. ;)
Quote from: Desertfox on November 16, 2010, 10:50:44 PM
Quote1. The New Swiss have to reach Japan to buy it.
Umm... we are like next door neighbors, and I have plenty of coal in Australia, and some oil in my side of Indonesia.
QuoteOOC.
There has been a LOT of Nverse Dutch/NS hostile action that was behind the scenes history dating back to before the Siam War.
That I understand perfectly. But using Masirah as an excuse? That is just frikin hilarious.
QuoteIC.
Nicholas van Rijn and the NOI Moslem Brotherhood hate the New Swiss' guts and with good reason.
The Dutch, I understand, but why the hell would ANY Muslim hate NS?
QuoteThose nations did not double-cross the Dutch.
Neither did I, unlike the Dutch who did double-cross me. ;)
1. You did double cross the Dutch. You were paid in your own coin.
2. There is NO COAL on your side of Australia or that side of Indonesia.(I did the geology on Nverse Australia remember, Its based on the REAL planet Earth with a supervolcano eruption?) Look at that geology again. You import coal and oil.
As for... I have industry=I have coal...that is silly. Does European Holland have coal?
Provide a single example of Swiss double crossing...
(http://www.power-technology.com/projects/callide-coal/images/3-energy-resources.jpg)
...alot of dark blue on my side...
(http://www.ipa.or.id/images/modules/stats_oil.jpg)
The two red dots to the east are on my side...
Ohhh... does that mean Italy Just discovered all those Lovely Deep Oil Wells in LIbya.....
I tihink we have to go by OTL production is some cases.
The Empire of Italia as an example has limited access to some Coal in Africa, and imports the rest from places like Bavaria and Austria Hungary. It imports its Oil from the CSA, UNK, Romania, Russia, and Persia so as not to become to dependent upon any one Source. Soon it will have access to a domesticaly owned source in New Zion ::) :o
Given that Coal is found in Australia we can assume that the NS does mine it. The Oil and natural Gas of the area is usually deep wells and off shore something nobody can get to yet, just like all that Oil in Libya :'(
On the other hand their is plenty of Oil in other places the NS can probably still get all they need in imports from the World Market.
Charles
The maps you provide DF say nothing about 1919 tech and ACCESSIBILUTY.
Even with 2010 tech almost 90% of those recent sites, and they are RECENT discoveries as of year 1980 are inaccessible like the huge shake deposits of western Northern America.
CTwaterman has a good point. Not until Italo Balbo commissioned an oil search in Libya around 1930 did Italy know she had oil. As to access? The drill bits that could reach it did not exist outside the United States. Those were not invented until 192sas 8.
Easy oil coal and shale did not and DO NOT exist in the SW Pacific except along the Western Indonesian archipeligo . Those reserves you posted are DEEP or scattered or very very low volume to cubic meter to recover,
http://www.indexmundi.com/australia/oil_imports.html
READ.
As to a double cross, the whole Siam War was a New Swiss Double Cross from beginning to end.
NvR.
To really press this issue into ridicule,The Esc is hereby declaring The Baltic Ocean closed for all seagoing activity,unless given a precise permit by the Esc.
>:( >:( >:( ::) ::)
Minimum distance The Sound:4182 m.
Minimum distance The Great Belt 12564m
::) ::) ::)
Fight fight fight...
I moved this to the meeting room, which I think had been Charles' intent anyway...
I could split it but didnt see a way to move... pesky Mod controls..... :o
Patience young padawan. The ways of the forums are not revealed all at once.
Yes I believe their was discussions about closing all sorts of straits around the world just before I joined the Sim. France and UNK I believe discussed closing the Norman Channel ::)
Iberia countered by indicating it not only would but could close the Straits of Gibraltar.
The ESC controls Access into the Baltic Ocean, and the Ottoman Empire controls access into Black Sea. The Persians and the Ottomans now control access to the Persian Gulf.
So far the only nation to close an international strait for any length of time is the Dutch and this only applied to the straits of Malacca and only vs. New Switzerland. The Republic of Orange closed the Strait into the Persian Gulf durring the 10th Crusade or whatever were calling it with mines and forceibly stoped and searched foreign flagged vessels. The start of bad relations between Orange and Italia.
Over all closing a strait to innocent passage to nations is a bad Idea and is usually only done under dire circumstances. So far we have not had a major problem with this since I joined the Game. Lots of harsh diplomatic letters bettween Orange and Italy, probably some nasty language between New Swiss and the Dutch some time around 1913 when the Dutch originaly bared them from using dutch waters?
Of course a bunch of nations havent even signed the International documents concerning the rights of Neutrals to freely utilize International Straits and waters. So we lack even a true international consensus on the rights of freedom of navigation and what Innocent Passage even is ??????
So if your nation is going to start screaming what about my right of innocent passage please be sure your nation has signed the relevant documents. Because if you havent please be prepared for the UNK Consulate to point out that if you dont bare the responsibilities of an international treaty you certainly are not entitled to its privilages. :P
QuoteI still have no idea what this has to do with China or my news...
Hmm, I think that he's trying to tell you that the Dutch are currently in China, helping out the MK... and the 1919 Naval Law travels along with every Dutch citizen...
Fortunately, in Japan there is only one Law: The Japanese Law. All laws that have nothing to do with the Empire are unlawful within the Empire. :)
QuoteThe Japanese have the huge coal fields of Manchuria!
What?!? Why wasn't I informed about them?! *starts coal rush* :D
QuoteThe New Swiss have to reach Japan to buy it.
That's easy. It's not like the Dutch own every bit between NS and Japan. NS is a lot closer to Japan than the Netherlands.
QuoteUmm... we are like next door neighbors
[Kimono on]
Yes, don't remind us about that. *grumble, grumble*
[Kimono off]
How much next door? The closest NS and Japan bits are less than 1 mile apart (Unimak Island and the Alaska peninsula)
QuoteThe Dutch, I understand, but why the hell would ANY Muslim hate NS?
Uhm... because of some top secret Dutch brainwashing program? :)
QuoteYou import coal and oil.
Coal import... maybe. As for oil, oil was discovered in Central Australia, a NS bonus back before the start of 1914, giving NS a 'C' status when it comes to oil production (which is enough for NS itself).
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2954.msg31649#msg31649
QuoteDoes European Holland have coal?
Yes it has...
Production graph:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Winning_Steenkool_in_Nederland.png/800px-Winning_Steenkool_in_Nederland.png)
If I read it correctly, you're looking at just over 4 million tons being produced by the Netherlands in the next 5 Navalism years.
According to the Dutch wiki page on coal mines, 14 coal mines in the Netherlands and a bunch more in Belgium. Total production of the Dutch mines over all the years was 568,261,000 tons.
Umm... I have coal, I have it easily accessible, and I have A LOT of it...
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/featurearticlesbyCatalogue/6893596390A01028CA2569E3001F5555?OpenDocument (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/featurearticlesbyCatalogue/6893596390A01028CA2569E3001F5555?OpenDocument)
QuoteAs to a double cross, the whole Siam War was a New Swiss Double Cross from beginning to end.
Funny cause NS did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (it was an NPC at the time) during that war.
QuoteCoal import... maybe. As for oil, oil was discovered in Central Australia, a NS bonus back before the start of 1914, giving NS a 'C' status when it comes to oil production (which is enough for NS itself).
Ah forgot about that... I might not be an oil exporter but should have enough oil for myself. Afterall the only ones burning oil are navy ships and ocean liners. My economy runs on coal, not oil.
I suspect that the Dutch might blame the whole Siamese affair on the Swiss in some convoluted circular reasoning conspiracy theory sort of way.
Well I do notice a tendancy to blame just about everything on the New Swiss... Its not actually wrong to blame them for most things ;) but for everything???
I mean I just got done blamming the New Zion war on them and the attacks on Nassau shipping and neutral shipping by emplacing illegal minefields and hmmm Im sure they have been blamed for something else recently....
QuoteHmm, I think that he's trying to tell you that the Dutch are currently in China, helping out the MK... and the 1919 Naval Law travels along with every Dutch citizen...
Well if that's the case, the Chinese might be slightly angry at their "allies", considering that they asked for help and the Swiss agreed to do so... Sinking aid ships headed to your ally makes for poor relations...
Quote from: damocles on November 17, 2010, 06:48:49 AM
Easy oil coal and shale did not and DO NOT exist in the SW Pacific except along the Western Indonesian archipeligo . Those reserves you posted are DEEP or scattered or very very low volume to cubic meter to recover,
Didn't bother the "READ" order, since I run the Wesworld Dutch and know oil in western New Guinea was a WWII issue. Pre-WWII, oil was found and could be commercially exploited in that area. They didn't produce much at the time, most of the capacity was indeed in western DEI, but there was something.
While this wasn't known in 1919-1920, it was very likely accessable had someone gone looking, so the New Swiss- lacking other sources, may have gone exploring in their part of Indonesial a bit earlier.
Can't remember the name of the refinery complex there, but a very brief google search allows this quote here , which describes the idea of recapturing it and bringing it into production, as well as the quality of it. :
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Approach/USA-P-Approach-18.html (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Approach/USA-P-Approach-18.html)
Quote
While these steps were being taken to coordinate oil rehabilitation projects, it had become obvious that in accordance with General MacArthur's plans the first significant oil producing region that could be recaptured in the Netherlands East Indies would be the Klamono district on the Vogelkop Peninsula. Before the war, civilian oil companies had found oil in commercial quantities at the Klamono fields, but there had been little production other than that necessary to prove the discoveries. Insofar as was known, Dutch forces on the Vogelkop had not destroyed many of the Klamono production facilities when they left the region in 1942. Nor had the Japanese made any use of the fields--they found all the oil their limited shipping could handle in more accessible places such as Java, Sumatra, and Borneo.
The Klamono district oil was especially valuable in that it could be used as fuel for naval vessels without refining beyond a little "topping" to remove excess naphtha. With limited effort, the wells could be expected to bring in some 16,000 barrels of crude oil per day; with additional development, about 25,000 barrels. Such production would presumably save the Allies considerable shipping space and time, for, instead of the long haul from United States ports, navy bunker fuel could be produced and topped as necessary much nearer to the scene of combat.6
The Esc statement was a pure "provokatzie",to underline what in my opinion is total nonsense,off course the Esc wont close the Baltic,it was a means to show how far out I fell this discussion is!!
Quote from: ledeper on November 17, 2010, 12:48:06 PM
The Esc statement was a pure "provokatzie",to underline what in my opinion is total nonsense,off course the Esc wont close the Baltic,it was a means to show how far out I fell this discussion is!!
Gotcha.... I feel it has moved into a low Lunar Orbit myself.....
And to think this whole convo got started because some poor coolies are starving...
1. 4 million tons of coal? ROTFLMAO.
2. 1.2 MT versus nations that make 20 MT (cough, France, cough) per year? ROTFLMAO.
3. The Dutch Law follows the Dutch.
4. How many warships did New Switzerland lose again?
5. Can I ask just what kind of Lunatic tries to approach the East China where night torpedo boat clashes are the NORM?
6. Just how many tons of smokeless coal does a 100 ship Navy use? US Navy peacetime Great White Fleet.
http://www.ww2pacific.com/greatwhite.html
50 colliers at 2000 tonnes per ship using HARD ANTHRACITE COAL.
JAPAN has soft coal. They bought BRITISH COAL (500,000 tons) for their SMALL fleet for that war when they sank those Russians..
Russia did not have the right naval coal in 1905. Neither does the New Swiss, the only site he has produced only 25,000 tons of NAVAL coal per year.
That means the New Swiss merchant fleet belches black smoke and that their escaping heavy ships are also smoke belchers.
I did not know about the Nverse oil grant It does NOT EXIST in the real world. Not at this time.
The oil fields in East Indonesia were useless until after WW II. That is HARD ROCK drilling only recoverable with post 1950s tech.
*sighs*
If your looking for Hard Anthracite coal then in large quantities then please step up and purchase it from the UNK or the CSA in this time period. The British of OTL utilized their near monopoly on anthracite to give their merchant marine an unfair edge. Many UK merchants would leave the UK carrying coal to deliver it to some port and then pick up a cargo for the return trip.
The German Navy at Jutland was using lots of brown coal. And Anthracite isnt smokeless it simply is easyier on the engines. Any fleet using Coal leaves a plume of smoke that can be spotted nearly to the horizon.
As to the South China sea Merchants use it beyond the 6 NM limit of the RRC and MK. They sail full illuminated running lights on and with their National Flag painted on their sides. Now Insurance rates in those waters are probably up. But shipping has not come to a stand still just yet they are just avoiding all RRC ports north of Hainin Island completely. Except for the Port of Shanghai which still regularly recieve shipping from CSA and others.
Charles
Umm... did you even look at the link I posted? Australia produced 10 million tons of coal in 1908...
Oh and BTW I have no remaining coal fired navy ships.
And that aid ship en-route to China? PLEASE sink it, you would do me a great favor.
Quote from: Desertfox on November 17, 2010, 10:50:54 PM
Umm... did you even look at the link I posted? Australia produced 10 million tons of coal in 1908...
Oh and BTW I have no remaining coal fired navy ships.
And that aid ship en-route to China? PLEASE sink it, you would do me a great favor.
To be honest 10 Million Tons of Coal is a pittence... the US Anthracite Coal Mines in 1917 Produced 100 Million Tons of Anthracite alone, Bitimus or Brown Coal totals were at least 5x that much.
But since we are not really tracking resources in our fantasy game that really not a problem. Other then a Roleplaying one.
Charles
Look at your own charts AGAIN and what I published about NAVAL coal.
As to sinking a merchant in the East China Sea? Who sank it? How would you know/
Only a naval amateur enters declared exclusion zones where active combat occurs. Those were declared by the RRC and the MK to be those areas coastal adjacent in the east, central and South China Seas.
The New Swiss are that incompetent? If the New Swiss are so careless as to be caught in Dutch territory, then what is the causus belli there? If they close approach Dutch vessels that shows CLEAR HOSTILE INTENT. We defend ourselves.
As for your oil fired navy- NO TANKERS, no refueling at sea and your naval oil smokes. NOI oil doesn't WE HAVE TANKERS and we can refuel at sea.
if you want to aid the MK I suggest that you let Japan third party your aid. We TRUST the Japanese as a go between. Trust a New Swiss Pirate? Never.
Of course, if they use coal in oil fired boilers...
Coal in oil fired boilers!?!?!
Repeat after me, KABOOM.
QuoteIf they close approach Dutch vessels that shows CLEAR HOSTILE INTENT. We defend ourselves.
So if it is a Green Cross marked cargo vessel flying the Swiss colors, you're willing to attack and sink it? I know it is a dubious combination and maybe the Swiss might abuse the use of the Green Cross, but what if they aren't? Are the Dutch willing to incur the wrath of the part of the world that
is civilized?
Quotethe US Anthracite Coal Mines in 1917 Produced 100 Million Tons of Anthracite alone, Bitimus or Brown Coal totals were at least 5x that much.
Out of curiosity, is that the regular US production of the first quarter of the 20th century, or a temporary heightened production because a world war was going on? After all, 1917 was in the middle of the Great War and it was the year that they US entered the war as well. So I am not sure if the US 1917 figure would be a good figure to use to compare with the peacetime productions of Navalism.
QuoteAs to sinking a merchant in the East China Sea? Who sank it? How would you know/
Even if
I were to sink it, NS would no doubt blame the Dutch due to the very obvious NS-Dutch relations. :)
If something happens, blame the Swiss. If you are the Swiss, blame the Dutch. ;D
QuoteAs for your oil fired navy- NO TANKERS, no refueling at sea and your naval oil smokes. NOI oil doesn't
It's only 3000 nm to Japan. If the ship has the range (and it usually has when it goes slower), it can get there and refuel there. Japan has a 'C' rating for oil, enough to fulfill its naval needs. Handing fuel over to the NS ships would cut into my supply, but I could easily compensate that by either cutting down on naval operations and sorties or get some oil from my big Western Neighbour.
... of course, it should be obvious that the oil the Swis would be getting would cost them an arm and a leg... and another arm and another leg...
... and maybe a head, too...
... and a torso...
As for the fact that his oil supposedly smokes and yours not, I would say that that is up to the moderators.
QuoteCoal in oil fired boilers!?!?!
Repeat after me, KABOOM.
Yes, that is what you are trying to do. DF already stated that he has "no remaining coal fired navy ships". You seem quite determined to get him to use only coal in his fleet of oil fired ships...
Quotethe US Anthracite Coal Mines in 1917 Produced 100 Million Tons of Anthracite alone, Bitimus or Brown Coal totals were at least 5x that much.
Out of curiosity, is that the regular US production of the first quarter of the 20th century, or a temporary heightened production because a world war was going on? After all, 1917 was in the middle of the Great War and it was the year that they US entered the war as well. So I am not sure if the US 1917 figure would be a good figure to use to compare with the peacetime productions of Navalism.
It is the peek year of US Anthracite production it was always popular for heating US homes but latter Oil replaced it after WWI. I think your are correct that this would be an artificialy inflated production number due to the needs to replace Anthracite production losses due to British mobolization and the huge increases in the US merchant fleet.
QuoteYes, that is what you are trying to do. DF already stated that he has "no remaining coal fired navy ships". You seem quite determined to get him to use only coal in his fleet of oil fired ships...
Thank You, Thank You, No applause just send your checks or cash to the Imperial Widdow and Orphan fund.... ;) ;D
Question: I keep seeing "ratings" mentioned with regards to oil and/or coal. What are they are where might I find a listing?
I found the Ratings page (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1359.30). Looks interesting (the whole topic does).
Quote from: ctwaterman on November 18, 2010, 05:33:12 AM
Quotethe US Anthracite Coal Mines in 1917 Produced 100 Million Tons of Anthracite alone, Bitimus or Brown Coal totals were at least 5x that much.
Out of curiosity, is that the regular US production of the first quarter of the 20th century, or a temporary heightened production because a world war was going on? After all, 1917 was in the middle of the Great War and it was the year that they US entered the war as well. So I am not sure if the US 1917 figure would be a good figure to use to compare with the peacetime productions of Navalism.
The 60 million tons anthracite was the norm, and that was NOT total coal production
QuoteIt is the peek year of US Anthracite production it was always popular for heating US homes but latter Oil replaced it after WWI. I think your are correct that this would be an artificialy inflated production number due to the needs to replace Anthracite production losses due to British mobolization and the huge increases in the US merchant fleet.
See previous.
QuoteYes, that is what you are trying to do. DF already stated that he has "no remaining coal fired navy ships". You seem quite determined to get him to use only coal in his fleet of oil fired ships...
Then why does he cite coal?
QuoteThank You, Thank You, No applause just send your checks or cash to the Imperial Widdow and Orphan fund.... ;) ;D
Swiss check is in the mail.
Quote from: Walter on November 18, 2010, 03:21:58 AM
QuoteIf they close approach Dutch vessels that shows CLEAR HOSTILE INTENT. We defend ourselves.
So if it is a Green Cross marked cargo vessel flying the Swiss colors, you're willing to attack and sink it? I know it is a dubious combination and maybe the Swiss might abuse the use of the Green Cross, but what if they aren't? Are the Dutch willing to incur the wrath of the part of the world that is civilized?
Such a ship would be given a challenge, "Dutch vessel to New Swiss vessel, Break, 1919 Naval Law. Break. Keep your distance. Break. Do not approach. Break. Close approach we will shoot. Break. Only Warning. End."
That puts the onus on the pirates...
QuoteAs to sinking a merchant in the East China Sea? Who sank it? How would you know/
Even if I were to sink it, NS would no doubt blame the Dutch due to the very obvious NS-Dutch relations. :)
If something happens, blame the Swiss. If you are the Swiss, blame the Dutch. ;D
Who would care what the New Swiss claimed? They are known liars. Goes the other way too. So a New Swiss was blown up. Big deal.
QuoteAs for your oil fired navy- NO TANKERS, no refueling at sea and your naval oil smokes. NOI oil doesn't
It's only 3000 nm to Japan. If the ship has the range (and it usually has when it goes slower), it can get there and refuel there. Japan has a 'C' rating for oil, enough to fulfill its naval needs. Handing fuel over to the NS ships would cut into my supply, but I could easily compensate that by either cutting down on naval operations and sorties or get some oil from my big Western Neighbour.
... of course, it should be obvious that the oil the Swiss would be getting would cost them an arm and a leg... and another arm and another leg...
... and maybe a head, too...
... and a torso...
As for the fact that his oil supposedly smokes and yours not, I would say that that is up to the moderators.
QuoteCoal in oil fired boilers!?!?!
Its reality. Some oil is sweet and some oil is sour, depending on what life died and was deposited in geologic processes to make it. Moderators should (I might ask) at least pay some lip service to plausible Nverse geology and chemistry. Nations have to think about their resource limitations! I think a few can be simmed
QuoteRepeat after me, KABOOM.
Yes, that is what you are trying to do. DF already stated that he has "no remaining coal fired navy ships". You seem quite determined to get him to use only coal in his fleet of oil fired ships...
[/quote]
He suggested it, as an out, NOT me. ;D
Quote from: damocles on November 17, 2010, 11:20:45 PM
Look at your own charts AGAIN and what I published about NAVAL coal.
And what makes you an expert on fictional N-verse geography and the fact that a bunch of the stuff here isn't OTL? For all you know about N-verse geography in the New Swiss Indonesia, the oil could be on soil land, easily recoverable....
Quote from: damocles on November 17, 2010, 10:10:08 PM
The oil fields in East Indonesia were useless until after WW II. That is HARD ROCK drilling only recoverable with post 1950s tech.
Actually, the passage I quoted indicated that is not the case:
"Before the war, civilian oil companies had found oil in commercial quantities at the Klamono fields, but there had been little production other than that necessary to prove the discoveries."
Which would seem to mean that at the very least there is reasonable doubt, and that possibly you are incorrect.
And you really need to stop using All Caps. It's a form "Shouting". Saying something louder doesn't enhance you're argument at all. It annoys folks and encourages them to tune you out, or Shout back. Additionally, it is annoying when you are using it to make categorical assertions that are contrary to some of the data presented.
As for coal, I don't believe there has been any delineation of who has hard coal and who has soft coal, or any effort to create different range modifiers based on the coal types. We pretty much just have "coal".
Ultimately, the fact that New Swizterland has an oil rating means they have oil. Which means much of this discussion is moot.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 18, 2010, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: damocles on November 17, 2010, 10:10:08 PM
The oil fields in East Indonesia were useless until after WW II. That is HARD ROCK drilling only recoverable with post 1950s tech.
Actually, the passage I quoted indicated that is not the case:
"Before the war, civilian oil companies had found oil in commercial quantities at the Klamono fields, but there had been little production other than that necessary to prove the discoveries."
Which would seem to mean that at the very least there is reasonable doubt, and that possibly you are incorrect.
And you really need to stop using All Caps. It's a form "Shouting". Saying something louder doesn't enhance you're argument at all. It annoys folks and encourages them to tune you out, or Shout back. Additionally, it is annoying when you are using it to make categorical assertions that are contrary to some of the data presented.
Quotehttp://www.gulfoilandgas.com/webpro1/MAIN/Mainnews.asp?id=11750
Please read the drill depths and through what type rock.
As for coal, I don't believe there has been any delineation of who has hard coal and who has soft coal, or any effort to create different range modifiers based on the coal types. We pretty much just have "coal".
Ultimately, the fact that New Swizterland has an oil rating means they have oil. Which means much of this discussion is moot.
1. All caps is a military typing habit to call attention to a bullet point. In this case. it was to point out a technical fact that only the US had the drill bits, (as previously mentioned. Incidentally that is still the case.
2. That has been shown as to who has what type coal in the production tables presented so far. For example in this time period Australia has no "naval coal" but plenty of soft coal, for low order industrial processes. This would affect the production of steel armor in those days, for example.
3. Chemistry is, geology is, physics is.
D.
Quote from: damocles on November 18, 2010, 06:02:09 PM
3. Chemistry is, geology is, physics is.
D.
True. However, the chemistry of the coal is irrelevant if all coal here is the same. The geology of the land is different here than in OTL. Physics is physics, can't really argue on that one.
Quote from: Sachmle on November 18, 2010, 09:33:12 PM
True. However, the chemistry of the coal is irrelevant if all coal here is the same. The geology of the land is different here than in OTL. Physics is physics, can't really argue on that one.
Well some things in physics can be argued, but you need to be going
really fast (.2c or greater) or be super-tiny (>1 angstrom). Nether of which we have here so sort of a moot point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s)
I want the shirt that says that
http://store.discovery.com/detail.php?p=106704&v=discovery_shows_mythbusters_apparel (http://store.discovery.com/detail.php?p=106704&v=discovery_shows_mythbusters_apparel)
*holds Head* Ouch that was an anoying little clip..... The T-Shirts on the other hand do look cool....
Charles
(runs to plant tip in GF's ear)
A reminder (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=340.0).
The 3 moderators can elect to evaporate IRL oil/coal/wharever reserves.
Just to make the whole discussion about that moot.
Quote from: Desertfox on November 18, 2010, 10:19:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s)
That does not work. ;D
Quote from: snip on November 18, 2010, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: Sachmle on November 18, 2010, 09:33:12 PM
True. However, the chemistry of the coal is irrelevant if all coal here is the same. The geology of the land is different here than in OTL. Physics is physics, can't really argue on that one.
Well some things in physics can be argued, but you need to be going really fast (.2c or greater) or be super-tiny (>1 angstrom). Nether of which we have here so sort of a moot point.
You cannot argue that physics varies either. What you can argue is renormalization, and probability as the function collapses. The outcomes still remain subject to conservation, and symmetry whether QM or relativity.
Changing the subject somewhat - Maoria wasn't listed in the previous Oil Reserves thread, but my assumption is, essentially, that my proven oil reserves are in Class C (Military Use Only), and speculative ones are essentially just enough to stay in that category for however long the game should last.
Fortunately, I also have respectable amounts of coal - even if it's low-grade sulfur-ridden crud - and the consequences of my own OOC fetish for renewable energy sources. So, the wheels of Maori Industry should turn even without The Juice. ^_^