www.navalism.org

I'll re-attach the map at the bottom.

Important Reminder!

If I can not find a unit or item in your Encyclopedia, it does not exist.  I will not go looking for it in sim reports and so forth.

If you do not provide orders for specific units, they undertake no offensive actions, but will defend themselves where they are if need be.

Land Units:

We'll use the available corps, divisions, and brigades.

I will need the following information each turn - ideally in a spreadsheet emailed to me:
   -Unit name
   -Unit level (ie:  6/4)
   -Unit morale (Elite, Regular, Reserve - there are no other options at this point)
   -Unit location (Province)
   -Unit tasking, no more than one per unit per month:
      -Attack into a certain province
      -Dig in and defend from a certain province
      -Fall back from a certain province into a friendly or contested neighbouring province
      -Strategic Reserve within the province - doesn't engage in attacks or defences, but can be used to plug holes or exploit victories
      -Strategic movement between friendly provinces, up to four provinces per month if you have direct railway links, otherwise one)
      -Regroup in a friendly province (repairs battle damage)
      -Amphibious assault (limited to your marine units with dedicated military sealift)
      -Amphibious transports (any units, but no more than two corps per month) between friendly ports

The "stacking limit" per province is ten corps per side.  Yes, this is somewhat arbitrary.

Air Units

These will be divided into uniform units of one hundred aircraft

I will need to know the following for each unit:
   -Unit name
   -Unit type (tech year and fighter/twin engine/strategic bomber)
   -Province
   -Tasking, no more than one per unit per month
      -Air superiority (attacks enemy missions)
      -Top cover (defends friendly aircraft from enemy air superiority)
      -Ground attack (tactical support of land units)
      -Strike (attacks enemy infrastructure)
      -Recce (watchs for enemy movement)
      -Move to new base (up to two provinces away, each month)
      -Naval Recce/Strike (watches for and attacks enemy
shipping in a certain Naval Zone)

Fighters and twin-engine aircraft can only operate into adjacent provinces; strategic bombers can operate two provinces over.

The "stacking limit" of your aircraft is based on your airstrip availability in each province.

Naval Units

This will be highly abstract.

There are three Naval Zones (Yellow Sea, East China Sea, South China Sea) extending up to 200 nm from the coast, and International Waters.

Each surface ship of 1,500 t or less is abstracted into "combat factors", which will be limited to operating in the three Naval Zones.
   -1 combat factor per 100 t light displacement (round down; boats of less than 100 t count as 0.5)
   -Multiply by 1.25 if it has first level fire control, or by 1.5 if it has second level
   -Multiply by 1.25 if it is faster than 30 kts; Multiply by 0.8 if it is slower than 20 kts
   -Multiply by 0.8 if more than ten years old; by 0.5 if older than twenty years
   -Multiply by 1.5 if the ship has an armor belt; by 2.0 if it also has a torpedo bulkhead (not likely, but possible).
   -Round the final figure down to the nearest whole number, even if zero.

-Each submarine is abstracted this way:
   -3 combat factor per 100 t light displacement (round down; boats of less than 100 t count as 0.5) 
   -Multiply by 0.8 if it is a 1910 tech boat; by 0.5 if a 1905 tech boat; 0.25 if a 1900 tech or older

Surface ships of 1,501 t or larger are detailed individually, as are smaller, sea-going escorts specifically tasked with escorting them.  Provide name/class/type and the squadron they are attached to.

For each of the three Naval Zones, tell me how many "Combat Factors" are assigned to each task.  You can allocate Combat Factors to tasks in Naval Zones which you do not have ports in - obviously, these will be offensive tasks:
   -Attack trade (attacks coastal traffic at sea)
   -Blockade ports (attacks shipping inbound/outbound)
   -Attack ports (attack against physical port infrastructure and defences)
   -Escort Amphibious assault
   -Defend portsfrom blockade, attack, and amphibious assault
   -Patrol waters (defends trade)

For squadrons of larger ships, provide me with a brief summary of their mission and I'll game out the action specifically.  These squadrons can operate in International Waters anywhere (subject to overall range and port availability)

Land Combat

-See http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3917.0 for a summary of how it works - ignore the bits about stacking, movement, and timetables, though, because that's based on the week-by-week timetable I use for smaller land wars such as the NZ/Italy thing.

Air Combat

I have specific tables I roll against, depending on the mission of the aircraft.  An air unit will either be intact or destroyed at the end of the month.

In general, higher-tech aircraft are both more capable and, when it matters, have the initiative when I make combat rolls:  they go first.

Naval Combat

I'll first game out squadron actions as specific battles; you'll receive specific information on unit losses and damage.

I'll then game out Combat Factor action as ongoing efforts; you'll receive information on lost Combat Factors.  No further detail will be necessary until war's end, at which point we'll sort out how this translates into specific unit losses.  You'll also be appraised of any damage to ports and installations, and loss of trade.

Special Ops/Hearts and Minds

If you want to undertake special missions or woo the enemy populace, tell me your plans, and I'll determine its effects.  You will then be billed a dollar cost for these operations, to be deducted from your Black Ops budget in the appropriate sim report.

Weather/Climate

For July - October, I will roll to see if each of the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers are flooding.  You will be appraised of the results when you are asked for orders for that month, as your scientists and old-timers will be able to see it coming.  Flooding will affect one or more provinces, with specified limits on your operations - combat and mobility. 

I will also roll for typhoons in August to October.  You will only learn of the results after that fact, but these (if present) may impact all forms of combat in certain provinces and naval zones.

In more northerly provinces, operations in December - February will result in increased casualties due to the cold.

Note that I am not relying on historical records for these determinants.  It will be made up as we go.

Results

I write up the monthly report with a number of annotations.  An annotation might be, "Actually, the torpedo didn't go off and your ship is fine", or "X Corps will collapse if it fights again; it needs to be rotated out of the line". 

Each side will receive a monthly report with their annotations included in italics.  If I think only a specific player should be aware of a specific annotation, I will PM it seperately.

The public report that goes out on the News Forum contains no annotations, as these are not for public consumption.

Comments?

Let me know, and I will add to this as necessary.

Other notes:

-Diplomatic activity.  If it's player-to-player, leave it out of your orders, because I don't game it.  Copy me on your PM traffic if you think I need to know it.  If it's towards an NPC, PM all three moderators - I will probably ask the other two guys to determine the response.

-Neutral neighbours:  You can give me a high-level overview of your activities and alert status if you wish.  In the event that combat spills across your border, I will come asking for more specific data.

-Neutral non-neighbours:  Please limit your orders to a summary of how your shipping will react to blockades and boardings in Chinese waters.  If I need to know something else, I will come asking.

-Generally speaking, I will:
    -Probably not read Neutral orders more than once.
    -Probably mis-interpret or forget to game out certain orders and instructions:  war is hell
    -Assume your units react cautiously to unexpected scenarios, but if something really bizarre happens, I will contact you for additional instructions.

Public orders from Paris once the hostilities break out.

Quote"All shipping in the yellow and Chinese sea is hazardous. The French government does not garanty save passage"

Quote"French insurance compagnies will send out a communique stating that shipping in Yellow and Chinese sea is no longer insured, be it French, or Foreign based.
CSA shipping firms can apply for exemptions."

Towards Independent Indochina

"France cannot interfere in a local matter, but if the civil war in China treathens to spill over the borders, France will take steps".
(OOC, this is a political promise, made a few months before the next elections.)

Political climate at Saïgon :

QuoteIndependent Indochina considers this war with caution. War will be devastating for trade, especially for rice trade, the major export ressource of the country

QuoteGovernment will take the necessary measures to assure the free maritime traffic and the free trade in its territorial waters

QuoteParacels and Spratley Islands will be defended with energy against any outside aggression

I will publish the order of battle, I gave you a couple of weeks ago.

D. 

X Corps (5/3 Infantry Regular) will be issued orders to mobilize once word of the war reaches DKB. It's sole purpose will be that of border patrol to ensure that fighting does not spill over into Nord Indokina.

XXVII and XXI Corps (5/3 Infantry Regular) will both remain at active status.

Kanonbooten Tiger and Luchs will patrol just off the roadstead to Hai Phong to watch for any activity that may require farther investigation (mostly ASW patrol, even though they have no DCs. Watch and report, do not engage unless attacked, or if civilian traffic IN NI waters is under attack.) Großestorpedobooten T-109 and T-110 will provide fast back-up if needed.

Schlachtkruezer Scharnhorst will be on 48hr alert, just in case.

Btw... Where is that MK OOB? Naval and Army. :(

I have the orders I need from both Chinas and will now spend the next few days moaning, "why me?" gaming things out.

You can always push the


button and not have to do either... ;D

Makes note to self

Quoteno explosives near Romanian, ever

You could just not game it out. I mean, either-ways I win. Since I'm fighting to the death that means either:

1. The MK is crushed, yay RRC!
2. The RRC is crushed. I jump to the MK (if allowed).

Oh wait, that government change has an important difference, darn.

Quote from: snip on July 30, 2010, 08:10:30 PM
Makes note to self

Quoteno explosives near Romanian, ever

No shit Jack....

France has learned that lesson (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4720.msg57168#msg57168) the painfull way.

Heh, that wasn't my fault! ;D

Did forget to scrap that, though, for extra BP...(makes note)

Indochinese scrapyards is better for Earth. We are nearest the battleground than Romania. :D

Quote from: Logi on July 30, 2010, 08:18:13 PM
You could just not game it out. I mean, either-ways I win. Since I'm fighting to the death that means either:

1. The MK is crushed, yay RRC!
2. The RRC is crushed. I jump to the MK (if allowed).

Oh wait, that government change has an important difference, darn.

Or you become king of the burnt out ruins with millions of dead.  I don't see this ending for years and only after horrible cost.

Heh...I was talking about that French ship that sunk in my harbor....but I didn't know that Indochina was closer to Romania then Romania... :D ;)

Quote from: TexanCowboy on July 31, 2010, 08:09:23 AM
but I didn't know that Indochina was closer to Romania then Romania... :D ;)

They're sneaky like that, just as RRC. ;)

Quote from: Sachmle on July 31, 2010, 08:11:54 AMThey're sneaky like that, just as RRC. ;)

We're about as sneaky as not-sneaky. ;)

Quote from: miketr on July 31, 2010, 07:09:15 AMOr you become king of the burnt out ruins with millions of dead.  I don't see this ending for years and only after horrible cost.

Well that's fine isn't it? Millions dead isn't a big number for China.

Think of it as population control. Logi's helping with overcrowding by killing off millions of poor farmers who couldn't afford to pay for someone else to go to war for them.

The only winner of this war, it will be the undertaker. And the suppliers of coffins.

And who is the bigger producer of wood of the area ? Me. ;D

So, Holland sold to MK, and Indochina to RRC. You're OK Damocles ? :D

Holland sells coffins? But what happens when the coffins are made from Romanian wood?

"We now lay you down in the ground, in the *KABOOM*"

;D ;D ;D

Romanian coffins are actually land mines?

Heh, everything in Romania is a landmine... :P

Tex, there is some wood in Indonesia. He don't need your exotic wood.  ;D

*sighs*...

Ok,  I get the Shovel Consession...

QuoteAnd who is the bigger producer of wood of the area ? Me. ;D

An excellent moment to raise the price of Indochina wood, right? Just like what Japan did a few years ago with Hainan and Sakhalin wood. :)

We could be build a "wood cartel" in Asia, with Holland, Indochina and Japan.  :)

*Shamelessly inserts splinters of Romanian wood into Indochinese, Japanese, and Dutch woodpiles*

Quote from: ciders on July 31, 2010, 09:14:09 AM
The only winner of this war, it will be the undertaker. And the suppliers of coffins.

And who is the bigger producer of wood of the area ? Me. ;D

So, Holland sold to MK, and Indochina to RRC. You're OK Damocles ? :D

I've been unexpectedly busy this week. I may be hung up a while. As for a LONG war, I accept that Logi has numbers, but we shall see.

I hope to be free by Wednesday.

D.

Ground action is largely simmed, along with supporting air action.  I'm reasonably confident that the casualties for August have exceeded all casualties in the Second Rift War.

Naval stuff and related air action to come. 

QuoteI'm reasonably confident that the casualties for August have exceeded all casualties in the Second Rift War.

^^ Understatement of the year... ^^

NS is more than willing to do the smuggling of coffins into China.

NS won't get within touching distance of Middle Kingdom territory, because then you will see the practical implementation of the venerable saying: "sniper: when you need to reach out and touch someone..." Of course, finding NS coffins on RRC soil will re-inforce the certitude that the "children" have gone in league with the devil, thus confirming the righteousness of our actions.  ;D

That would be not so bad... unless they use them to bury the bodies of MK soldiers. That would not indicate that the "children" have gone in league with the devil but that they are the devil. :)

But if the Dutch supply MK coffins, you can get them from Romania. That way you get the satisfaction of knowing even the dead will be able to influence the course of events....and not just spiritually.  ;D

No doubt the MK would love to bury the NS dead in Romanian coffins. ;D

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on July 31, 2010, 08:02:01 PM
Ground action is largely simmed, along with supporting air action.  I'm reasonably confident that the casualties for August have exceeded all casualties in the Second Rift War.

Naval stuff and related air action to come. 

Hmmm....  Each side has 50 corp armies so 100 divisions, 250K - 500K casualties (divide by 3 for KIA).  The losses are going to run into the MILLIONS.

Michael

Quote from: miketr on August 01, 2010, 07:46:22 AMHmmm....  Each side has 50 corp armies so 100 divisions, 250K - 500K casualties (divide by 3 for KIA).  The losses are going to run into the MILLIONS.

Michael

Hell yea!

Quote from: Phoenix on August 01, 2010, 03:51:04 AM
NS won't get within touching distance of Middle Kingdom territory, because then you will see the practical implementation of the venerable saying: "sniper: when you need to reach out and touch someone..." Of course, finding NS coffins on RRC soil will re-inforce the certitude that the "children" have gone in league with the devil, thus confirming the righteousness of our actions.  ;D

Hey, hey. Even the RRC would not allow people they hate on their soil.

Sounds more like that's aimed at the MK rather than NS. :)

The CSA will settle the matter- they will provide coffins to BOTH sides of the war.
It's not like we don't have sufficient timber.

You do until that desk in the Romanian consel's office goes off.... :D

I've put the August Report up in the Moderator Forum for Guinness and Maddox to review.  Once they've confirmed a lack of glaring errors and unnecessary ambiguities, I'll email annotated reports to belligerents and post the public version tomorrow.

It is my intention to game out September for this war next, after which we'll attend to October in the Rift.

Report's up. 

I'd appreciate orders for September 1919 by Friday night.  Thursday would be better.  Gives me a chance at finishing the gaming over the weekend.

QuoteWith Republican troops forced from their positions by rising waters, the Empire strikes back.

:D :D :D :D :D

The flooding of the Yangtze seems to me a desperation move my the MK. Something I wouldn't expect from the stronger of the two combatants. It's going to hurt civilians on both sides a lot more than the armies.

The stronger of the 2 wasn't mobilised, maybe it's a last ditch efford to slow the RRC troops down enough to buy time.
And what would the Forbidden city care about civilians, it was that hidious bunch of Imperial uglies that commanded millions of pesants to trow themselfs on the machineguns of the NS troopers.

I'm surprised the MK did something for the pesants in the flooded area.  In 1938 the Chinese trying to stop the Japanese army didn't.

I think it is more of a statement by the MK rather than desperation. NS, beware! :D

Like if I wanted to get dragged into a land war in Asia.

I seriously doubt you want to, but just in case you do have some crazy scheme ready... :)

Ouch, I did not expect the stronger of the two combatants to pull off a flooding.

Quote from: maddox on August 03, 2010, 12:42:53 PM
The stronger of the 2 wasn't mobilised, maybe it's a last ditch efford to slow the RRC troops down enough to buy time.
And what would the Forbidden city care about civilians, it was that hidious bunch of Imperial uglies that commanded millions of pesants to trow themselfs on the machineguns of the NS troopers.

I'm surprised the MK did something for the pesants in the flooded area.  In 1938 the Chinese trying to stop the Japanese army didn't.

In 1938 The Chinese couldnt risk warning the Japanese because the Japanese could have possibly done something to stop the Yellow river flooding.  The Japanese were advancing so quickly that the first 2 sites chosen to break the Dykes had already been overrun.
That was desperation...

This looked more like a cold calculated move to impact the Industry, Infrastructure and ability of the RRC to bring up supplies and move them across the Yangtze river.

Charles

Gling ! Gling !

Coffins ! Ice Creams ! Peanuts !

Gling ! Gling ! Gling !

Peanuts ! Ice Creams ! Coffins !

Gling ! Gling ! Gling !

Is that a modern war ? It's more surely a remake of Saw XXVIII. Is there any tacticians in China's ?

Definitely appears both sides are using "Grant" tactics.

More is coming. I have to assess and think this out so that I can restore the situation. This is about what I expected, considering that the MK had only a few months to get ready. What surprised me was that the flooding was effective at all.

In any event it will be Thursday before I can do a workup.

   

Rob, Rape, Pillage and Burn.
Yep... sounds like the War Criminal.

But it's making for some nice press, and Dixie foresees a VERY profitable 'cleanup' support operation.

New Switzerland already forgot New Zion ever existed, all this destruction going on...

(http://www.ibabuzz.com/darthraider/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/excellent.jpg)

Who stole the Romanian Schtick!!! *Gunshot*

Quote from: damocles on August 03, 2010, 03:56:20 PM
This is about what I expected, considering that the MK had only a few months to get ready.

The MK had a mere three years' notice on any RRC buildup judging from the timing of the half-year reports.

I must say that the numbers are (from Egypt's perspective) staggering.  Entire corps are annihilated.  Egypt couldn't afford to lose even one whole corps in the first month of combat.  (Yes I realize its not the entire corps, but corps-strength losses). 

It's like the Western Front in China, considering how little ground was gained.

200,000 losses on the Republican side, 210,000 losses on the Imperial side.....holy carp!

China's position as a world power is going to be destroyed by this if it keeps up, you know.

Quote from: TexanCowboy on August 03, 2010, 09:13:02 PM
China's position as a world power is going to be destroyed by this if it keeps up, you know.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Quote from: Sachmle on August 03, 2010, 09:22:17 PM

Quote from: TexanCowboy on August 03, 2010, 09:13:02 PM
China's position as a world power is going to be destroyed by this if it keeps up, you know.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

So is there going to be a land grab for china after this war peters out? 

Will there be any men left to fight it?

QuoteThe MK had a mere three years' notice on any RRC buildup judging from the timing of the half-year reports.

You mere the nonexistent buildup and the lax years and the sudden appearance of the super buildup of the MK?

When ~1916 the Updated Sim Reports of the MK came out, the MK was 10 corps and ~200 DD&Tbs ahead of the RRC. Who caused what buildup?

Quote from: Darman on August 03, 2010, 09:41:13 PM

Quote from: Sachmle on August 03, 2010, 09:22:17 PM

Quote from: TexanCowboy on August 03, 2010, 09:13:02 PM
China's position as a world power is going to be destroyed by this if it keeps up, you know.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

So is there going to be a land grab for china after this war peters out?  

I feel sorry for whoever wants to hold onto China. Damn they will be bled white.

Quote from: Logi on August 03, 2010, 09:44:12 PM


I feel sorry for whoever wants to hold onto China. Damn they will be bled white.

If we project this fighting out a half year then half of each sides armies will be lost and they can only replace 1/4 of those losses unless lower quality units are used.  I expect this war to wreck both sides armies rather completely if we see this war last a year or two.  At the end of which an outside invasion of either or both China's would be very possible.

Michael

 

Quote from: miketr on August 03, 2010, 09:57:36 PMIf we project this fighting out a half year then half of each sides armies will be lost and they can only replace 1/4 of those losses unless lower quality units are used.  I expect this war to wreck both sides armies rather completely if we see this war last a year or two.  At the end of which an outside invasion of either or both China's would be very possible.

Michael

Thats what I'm figuring too.  Eventually they will be throwing conscripts with (or without) rifles at each other.  Someone will step in.  Probably will have stepped in before then with gifts/offers of supplies and replacement equipment. 

Problem is holding that land, not beating the exhausted armies. Don't forget conscript armies can be raised extremely quickly in China and those themselves can be a problem.

I mean... eventually you're going to run out of bullets. And you're going to run out far faster than either China runs out of people.

Actually I'm thinking it's a darn long march from Bavaria, the logistics of the invasion will be killer 8) 

The bullets thing is a good observation, have to remember to pack bayonets !

Quote from: Logi on August 03, 2010, 09:44:12 PM

QuoteThe MK had a mere three years' notice on any RRC buildup judging from the timing of the half-year reports.

You mere the nonexistent buildup and the lax years and the sudden appearance of the super buildup of the MK?

Actualy, not that sudden.

QuoteWhen ~1916 the Updated Sim Reports of the MK came out, the MK was 10 corps and ~200 DD&Tbs ahead of the RRC. Who caused what buildup?

The person who was willing to help Phoenix with her HY reports.

Quote from: Logi on August 03, 2010, 10:16:03 PM
Problem is holding that land, not beating the exhausted armies. Don't forget conscript armies can be raised extremely quickly in China and those themselves can be a problem.

I mean... eventually you're going to run out of bullets. And you're going to run out far faster than either China runs out of people.

Not really, for mass armies bullets are made in multi-million lots.

China CAN be conquered especially if both sides wreck themselves on internal warfare.  Huge but technically deficient armies can be taken down by smaller but more technically advanced armies.     

As to deal within popular uprisings the solution is called "collective responsibility" you hammer the civilian population until they yield.  Its not pretty and I wouldn't care to write stories about it but it DOES WORK.  The story of the glorious partisan is a 20th century myth and side effect of the widespread availability of assault weapons.   Before AK's became a dime a dozen it was a different story and issues such as logistics and the internal situation of the occupying power.  Otherwise gorilla group depends very much so on outside support to survive let alone succeed. 

In short Logi if the two China's bleed themselves white don't be surprised if one or more outside nations decide to try and scavenge the carcass.     

Once the two Chinas are reduced to throwing rocks, takeover is simple. You march in, mark suitable killing fields, lay down barbed wire and minefields, carefully place MG nests and artillery zones, and wait... Chinese casualties in the 1st Swiss-Sino War where over a million, Swiss less than 200,000. And that was with the Chinese trowing 10" shells around.

I welcome you all to try and lose troops yourselves.

Quote from: Logi on August 04, 2010, 01:23:15 PM
I welcome you all to try and lose troops yourselves.

This wasn't a threat logi but a player to player warning that a long drawn out war has risks for you.

I came to this war prepared to fight to the last man. Literally. I think I'm prepared for such risks. In fact I expect it.

Scramble for China is very possible, indeed. Not a big war, with bloody conquests. But a serial of city falls, and bad treaties... Kunming for DKB, Dalian for Japan, Guangzhou for a pool of wood traders, this kind of things.

You have millions of soldiers, sure. But with no money, no weapons stronger than rust swords and no allies... don't become paranoid, but be careful. ;)

I can put up 1 mil vs 1 corp per battle. Match that and the strain on your logistic supply.

Besides... Don't become paranoid? Too late, I've always been paranoid.

Quote from: Logi on August 04, 2010, 03:09:11 PM
I can put up 1 mil vs 1 corp per battle. Match that and the strain on your logistic supply.

Yes you can and the result is you loose the battle very badly.  Russians and Later soviets tried mass attacks with poorly equipped / little to no training troops.  Or sent out troops with orders to pick up a rifle from when someone else was killed.  Some times even sent out with pikes.  The results were... poor...

The Japanese planned the same for the defense vs. Operation Olympic, the results would have been brutal; for the Japanese.

Such troops I might add are horribly vulnerable to chemical weapons attack.  Plus have all sorts of problems in terms of command and control.

To be very blunt you could chuck a million men a 50K corps and I would expect the corps to hold and take only light losses while the million man mass attack is crushed.  Not all of the million would be killed its hard to cram people tight and ones in the back will refuse to advance into the kill zone.

What you are hoping for is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana
(Wiki grossly understates the losses for the zulu's by nearly an order of magnitude)

What you will get is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorke%27s_Drift

The Zulu Impi despite his primitive tech was a professional soldier, an iron age soldier mind you but a soldier.  They would be far more capable in terms of willingness to take losses and ability to maneuver than peons with pikes.  Worse you aren't facing Martini-Henry Single Shot rifles and Congreve rocket's. 

I am sorry Logi but if you really think this strategy is viable its not. 

Michael 
     

If you plan the occasion. We will see then. Until then, I don't really care.

It is not a concern of mine until presented.

We do have N-verse accounts of the effectiveness of human wave attacks. I racked up 10-1 kill to loss ratios defending Shanghai and Hong Kong. And then the Chinese had heavy artillery support and rifles. Send 'em in without rifles or artillery support and it will be a massacre. Semi-autos + MGs + gas = very effective population control.

Who said anything about without rifles?

And you do notice your examples are city battles.

Also..

QuoteI don't really care.

Quote from: Logi on August 04, 2010, 04:16:02 PM
If you plan the occasion. We will see then. Until then, I don't really care.

Logi I am trying to help you if you choose to ignore it or think I am giving you bad advance that is your choice but I am trying to provide you with realistically information. 

Michael   

Quote from: Logi on August 04, 2010, 04:16:02 PM
If you plan the occasion. We will see then. Until then, I don't really care.

It is not a concern of mine until presented.

Planning cannot overcome Reality... I saw this firsthand in Iraq.
No matter how well planned (and they were) the Iraqi strategies were, and no matter how well thought out the Insurgent's tactics... neither force can hold a candle to the few US military in the area. The Iraqi regulars spent months preparing defensive positions that generally lasted minutes. The insurgents- in spite of outnumbering us early on, never facing us in direct combat unless trapped, and having the ability to hide among the populace- can only inflict pinpricks but never gain ground.

NOTHING can make up for good training and good equipment in battle.

No matter how many young men the RRC or MK squanders, the Mass Attack strategy would not work against a dedicated, prepared, provisioned enemy.

QuoteLogi I am trying to help you if you choose to ignore it or think I am giving you bad advance that is your choice but I am trying to provide you with realistically information.

Yes I choose to ignore it. I know the risks well enough and do not need ten people repeating the same thing over and over again. It goes beyond advice into the annoying zone.

I do not need advice for things I know.

QuoteNo matter how many young men the RRC or MK squanders, the Mass Attack strategy would not work against a dedicated, prepared, provisioned enemy.

If there is a problem, is the provisioned part.

---

I will kindly now ask everyone to shut up about this. This has gone on long enough. I don't need this advice for I get it enough already. I do not need repeating posts about the same thing, which I have said is considered spam in my eyes.

You all made your point. Now be done with it. I do not fancy having pages on a thread devoted to people saying things that the recipient already knows.

Dude, chill out. Seriously.

I am "chill", I am just slightly annoyed at all the repeating posts on something I know.

My wife and my mother had a conversation like this last night, only about whitewater rafting.  They could've gone back and forth all night, but I eventually said, "Okay, ladies, let's move on to a new topic."

Ah, whitewater rafting.......

And that was only part of what I did on my version of the Bataan Death March, Rocky.  ;)

Which is lovely, as you didn't engage in alternating monologues about it with my wife.

Fine you don't want advance, no problem.  My mistake.

Michael

I am rather curious to see how both sides react to the flooding, because it makes it hard to cross the river now.  Sort of relegates that front to being a static front with occasional raids across.  Thats what I'd do at least.  Why risk several corps in a massive cross-river assault when your supply lines will be tough to manage if you succeed? 

If you look at the numbers, it becomes clear that non of the 2 beligrents have any advantage on the offensive military part.

But as the MK is the instigator, and able to take some precautions ,and the RRC is the aggressor, in an offensive, unaware.

I think the move was logical.  At least it buys time for the MK to mobilise all the troops in reserve or in pure "peacetime active status" to wartime .

So, it's Friday and I have no orders from any of the belligerents.  What're the odds this will change tonight?  I tend to inflict penalties on tardy parties, as can be testified by several Brandenburger captains who had ships struck by dud Dutch torpedoes in 3PW.

Hmmm... sound like it is time for Iberia to launch a sneak attack!  Clearly there will be no resistance and I can occupy the whole of China right?

*KABOOM*

Romanian suprise assualt. ;)

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 06, 2010, 04:44:49 PM
So, it's Friday and I have no orders from any of the belligerents.  What're the odds this will change tonight?  I tend to inflict penalties on tardy parties, as can be testified by several Brandenburger captains who had ships struck by dud Dutch torpedoes in 3PW.

Yep, Korpen saved me a battleship.

*reenters guilty phase*   :-[

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 06, 2010, 04:44:49 PM
So, it's Friday and I have no orders from any of the belligerents.  What're the odds this will change tonight?  I tend to inflict penalties on tardy parties, as can be testified by several Brandenburger captains who had ships struck by dud Dutch torpedoes in 3PW.

I had another very busy week. I AM working on the orders as I write this so that they will by up by midnight.

I apologize, but I find sometimes life interferes. In fact I am cutting into a work BREAK to do this.

D.

I appreciate that.  Bear in mind that gaming out this out will take up much of my own free time for several days once I have the orders.

You could always bust out the Indian Ocean map and jump ahead to October if Logi/Damacles/etc. are unable due to RL. It happens to us all I'm sure.

It's an option, but I'd prefer to catch up the Chinese Civil War to the Rift War and then alternate between each on a monthly basis.  That prevents us from having to worry too much about how something significant in one war might've affected the other one that happened to get gamed out first.

I figure it will be tight to meet the schedule. I am working on air units. The orders remain the same for them but reconstitition means i have to juggle units.

Orders map will show intent by symbols.

Written orders will conform to map intent.

MK is at full total war footing.

D.

In case y'all were wondering, the simming is underway.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 15, 2010, 08:19:14 PM
In case y'all were wondering, the simming is underway.

And there was much rejoicing "Yay".

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 15, 2010, 08:19:14 PM
In case y'all were wondering, the simming is underway.

I win! I win!

Although it should be properly ya'll, according to the Texan/Southern accent.

QuoteI win! I win!

Although it should be properly ya'll, according to the Texan/Southern accent.

But that means you actually lost. :D

Well, you have to start somewhere....

Quote from: TexanCowboy on August 16, 2010, 10:23:23 PM
Although it should be properly ya'll, according to the Texan/Southern accent.

It's spelled that way in Canada. They also spell other words strangely, like "colour". It's a weird country.

QuoteThey also spell other words strangely, like "colour".

That's because it's proper English, not the commercial (read: "keep it as cheap as possible for newspaper ads where every additional letter costs way too much money") English of the States. :D

Quote from: Walter on August 17, 2010, 10:16:06 AM
That's because it's proper English, not the commercial (read: "keep it as cheap as possible for newspaper ads where every additional letter costs way too much money") English of the States. :D

But we don't speak English, we speak American. ;)

As I understand it? The most old-fashioned and linguistically conservative dialect of English in common use...

...is the American one.

Consider 'as it were'; in the Commonwealth, this phrase is a stock oddity, but in the United States, it's an example of a working grammatical rule which has been abandoned elsewhere.

There are some very wierd and Odd things about both America and our English Cousins....   some changes we adopt in the blink of an Eye texting, Iphones and anything that goes bang wosh or is usable as a weapon....

Our Language and well our unit of measurement seems to be where we draw the line.  New words to describe things sure but how we do grammer or dont in many cases is resistant to change.

As an example the Metric system has been legaly adopted by the United States for over 120+ years I believe by an act of congress even.   But we still manage to crash satalites into Mars because the delivery team used standard english units of measuremeants like Miles Per Hour and the De-Orbit team was using Kilometers per hour and simply assumed the speed of the Satalite delivery payload to Mars was moving in Kph instead of Mph so the satelite slamed into the atmosphere doing nearly twice the speed the programers had thought and then slamed into the planet.  Oooooppps.... but dont worry were a young country we will grow out of It... ;)

Quote from: Walter on August 17, 2010, 10:16:06 AM

QuoteThey also spell other words strangely, like "colour".

That's because it's proper English, not the commercial (read: "keep it as cheap as possible for newspaper ads where every additional letter costs way too much money") English of the States. :D

So, in other words, a Dutch newspaper should look like this?

Quote. .... .... .. ... . .. . . ... ..

Periods to minimize ink. *runs away*  ;D

History Lesson.

The United States by 1776 (the Colonies) onward was a major industrial zone (Number five or four manufacturer in the planetary economy after China Britain and France, I forget which). This is not taught in popular history.

The basis of that manufacturing base was iron, copper, and timber working industries that was used to build in North America more than one third of the British merchant fleet.  

The Colonies had less than 3 million people, most of them were unskilled. That meant that the Americans either had to import or invent machine tools to precision make such things as pulleys, gears, and mechanical linkages that you find in such complex artifacts as sailing ships.

The American machine tools were based on English practice that they learned or stole or duplicated. They used an English  machine tool economy BEFORE other nations did. When other nations did follow Britain into the machine tool Industrial Revolution, they went French metric, since that was the European measurement system courtesy of Napoleon.

That was how the Americans were able to build complete frigates with local produced tech from 1794 onward, including everything down to the 24 pounder long guns and 32 pounder carronades.

Those ships didn't just magically appear. There was a machine tool tech base behind it.

The Americans stuck with the English base 2 system. They discovered to their surprise that this at least in the 19th Century produced far tighter tolerances and part fits.    

So combined with a worker population, that was basically unskilled, the Americans used machine tool designed "intelligence" to manufacture. This tended to produce a bias to use design in the machine tool to obtain the precision fit that European manufacturers relied on skilled artisans to achieve. As an example, Pratt and Whitney's Wasp engines were made using engineers who designed tolerances into machine tools that they had made, whereas Bristol and more often Napier used the skills of their craftsmen to form finish precision parts. This was an RAF headache in that they could not cannibalize engines to rebuild damaged engines at the air base level. The Americans could rebuild a R-1830 on a jungle airstrip. Even RR could not mix and swap parts from one Merlin to another with the ease of a Packard copy or an Allison, even though the Merlin was a superior design to the Allison.         

You see where this ACTUALLY leads with the German 88mm tank gun breechblock having 200+ parts while the American 90 mm equivalent  had something like 96 or so and was a tighter gas seal on top of it? Simplification was one consequence.

What has that got to do with the Mars Orbiter? American scientists who planned the mission (academics who were NOT engineers) used SI measurements to plan the trajectories and mission maneuver commands. American engineers who BUILT the Mars orbiter used what they knew, which was the manufacturing tradition of the United States based on English practice.

Note that when the Americans reverse engineered the artifacts of nations that used the British tradition, (Italian torpedoes and British aviation engines), their copies or duplicates were as good or (Packard Merlin and Oerlikon as well as the Bofors) or better than the original. It was when they tried to adapt their machine tool driven manufacturing approach to SI measurement derived manufactured artifacts (generally German or French like the MG 42 or the HS 404) that the Americans botched the attempts. That was because measurement tech base matters.          

Without contesting any of your facts - much of them I didn't know, but find plausible - I must strongly question the assertion that finer machining tolerances are directly linked to the Imperial measurement system. Correlation is not causation, and so far, you've only demonstrated the former.

Think about it. With the crude methods of the day, screw set measurement gauges meant that halfs were easier to set and maintain than thirds, whereas fifths were almost impossible.

SI is base 10, so until you figured out the gauge sets (Post WW I in Europe) you really could not divide intervals by odd segment increments. The Americans got their segment intervals by rule of halfs. 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, etc.  When they also figured out thirds, well that was why you see things like machine guns, revolvers, and lever action rifles invented by Americans first. They could make them in the machine.  

In other words they got a huge jump on Europe, not only in machine tool tech, but also in measurement tolerances that made those precision fit things possible. The thing is that their tools held gauge set, and didn't slip, jiggle, or misalign. (Yes it means that you get a Ford flat 8 or Packard V-12 with much finer tolerances than a RR product until the British import American machine tools.  :-X). . Its the one case when base ten actually does NOT work to your advantage in measurement.

This changes when the engineers at Mercedes and Daimler Benz get their German developed base 10 gauge sets (around 1933). Then they started making engines and artifacts , that we just now are able to duplicate (1/15,000th of an inch is their 1942 normal!) Note that Hispano Suiza did not get such gauge sets, so the HS 12Y series engines did not work that well, ditto for the other machine-tooled French products.  :'(

Quote from: damocles on August 18, 2010, 03:50:26 AM
What has that got to do with the Mars Orbiter? American scientists who planned the mission (academics who were NOT engineers) used SI measurements to plan the trajectories and mission maneuver commands. American engineers who BUILT the Mars orbiter used what they knew, which was the manufacturing tradition of the United States based on English practice.

Now the irony is that SI (or its predecessor, the MKSA) is an 'engineering' system of units, with units more 'useful' magnitude of base units. Part of the scientists community is still using CGS system (well, one of the several) to some extent, as it have some perceived advantages in formulations of electricity/magnetism and quantum theory, and a lot of data is traditionally tabulated in CGS.
But then don't forget the physicists' favorite unit, the eV. It is not CGS, and 'metric' only to the extent that one could put SI prefixes to it so it would sound even more cooler, e.g. megelectronvolt 8).

While I fail to see what any of this has anything to do with the topic, or why 1/128" should be any better than ~0.2 mm, may I ask what "CGS" means?

Quote from: Nobody on August 18, 2010, 04:30:56 PM
While I fail to see what any of this has anything to do with the topic, or why 1/128" should be any better than ~0.2 mm, may I ask what "CGS" means?

centimeter-gram-second

Take a piece of paper and fold it into half, half again, half again.

Take the same piece of paper and fold it into half, then into fifths, then into half, then into fifths, etc.

Simple.

You have to establish a physical duplicable gauge, that can be bench milled to need anywhere at any time.

If you have a standard inch, pound, pint(of water at sea-level), second you can set any English length, weight, or time by rule of halfs.

Not quite as easy, even today, with the metric system.

Please note also that time is still NOT base ten below the day, month, year scale?

D.        

I'm a metalworker, and I see advantages in both systems. And yes, I can work in both quite handely,albeit the imperial system takes a tad more time if I have to recalculate the values between metric and Imperial [size=8t](that's math on paper, messuring with calipers and verniers is another matter)[/size].
I'm one of the few people at work who can make a good estimate of what kind of tread we're talking about (unless going over 1" UNF).

But for daily situations, I prefer the DIN based agreements, except pneumatic and hydraulic couplings, there I swear by BSP treads.

Aerospace Engineering is very interesting when it comes to measurements. Aeronautical (airplanes etc) Engineers use mainly English units while Astronautical (spacecraft) Engineers use Metric. So I have to learn to use both and have used them interchangeably. Physics classes where all SI while Engineering classes depended on the professor's preference.

The Mars Lander accident was caused by one side using meters, the other using yards, not much difference but it adds up over space travel...

As a nurse, I also have to flip back and forth between the systems; and as a handloader I have to deal with the more exotic apothecary measures.

Metric is just too damn easy when talking about miniscule amounts.

I would FAR rather measure in milligrams than in drams and grains.

Carat is a fun messurement.  It brings a twinkle to a ladies eye.

Well my profession we don't measure in metric, but in archaic variations of standard English. We still use "M" as a shorthand for thousand, and chains are a common unit (66 feet in a chain, 80 chains in a mile). We don't tend to use rods or links though, leave those for surveyors.  We have no need to worry about grains or grams though, nothing weighs that little...though sometimes bridge tonnage loading limits come into play.

Changing topic - I'll try to have the report up tomorrow at the latest.  Simming out naval stuff got pushed back a few days on account of additional domestic duties and reduced energy levels.

September will be up in about six hours - I'm giving a bit of time for the other Mods to skim through it and point out any obvious errors.

September is up and annotated reports have been sent to belligerents.  Please provide orders for October by Friday if possible.

QuoteLogi, Many of those airfields you had were flooded. Many of your aircraft if not moved should have been destroyed.

Come on...*

There are reasons for MK strategic decisions.  

Responding here as it is approraite here for what I noticed.

The MK airfield were built in the 1919/H2 half. That means they are not available for usage until 1920 (as it is operational in the half month after it's construction completed).

Hence curious question, as far as I can tell, ALL the MK airfields were completed this half. Where the hell are the MK aircraft operating out of?


EDIT: Sorry reading error, happened (misread airships are airstrips in rules). There's no problem.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 22, 2010, 03:15:44 PM
September is up and annotated reports have been sent to belligerents.  Please provide orders for October by Friday if possible.

Ahem...

Again life calls, sorry.

I'll do it as soon as possible.

D.

Any news on this?

I sent in my report a week ago before I left for vacation, so my guess is we are waiting on Damocles.

Want to know how much BP you need to spend on coffins?

None, if I remember correctly, BP is industrial steel, not wood.

i know

You'll need nails for those milions of coffins.  
At least 16 per coffin.  1 gram a nail= 16 grams a coffin= 16 000 000 grams per million coffins= 16 tons= 16 torpedo's

Or I can take advantage of the major religion in China and just have them all cremated or dumped into the earth and buried outright.

Technically still waiting for Damocles.  In practice, am starting anyway.

Results are gamed out, so I'm now writing up the report.  Will hope to have it out Monday night.

Many apologies for taking so long with that.

Hmm well that went all sorts of wrong.

Apparently there was none of the synchronization I intended and was more like a rough, disorganized charge. I intended 2-1 concentrations or above on every fight and giving up the offensive if pressed to hard. Guess I have some commanders to fire.

Also the Swechwan-Hupei move does NOT require crossing the Yangste river. Such a move is only when going into RR-controlled Hupei and attacking from here, a move which really makes no sense.

Actually with all the misorders carried out, I'm not that surprised.

You're correct about the Szechwan/Yangtze bit.  That's a significant error on my part.  I will have to consider whether to re-evaluate the outcome of that particular attack.

I examined my gaming records and adjusted the terrain modifier to reflect that the Yangtze is not so much of an issue.  However - the terrain is still pretty mountainous, and that favors the Imperials.  Still a Republican defeat, but less expensive.

On battles - they were gamed as synchronized.  However, between terrain modifiers and the strength of the Imperial defenders, most of your attacks worked out to 1:1 or 1.5:1 attacks (other than the one out of Chekiang/Kiangsu - 1:3).  Either set of odds favors the defender in most cases.

I actually intended them to attack close together in front length, making it a small area of attack rather than three separate spots.

Hmmm... I think there is going to be famine and plague in both China's.

Michael

Nah. That's just your imagination. :)

(looks for Green Cross) Help?

Fear not. The Empire is just across the border. :)

(pulls out carving knife)how much will it be this time....

Iberia at the star of the war made a request to setup refugee relief and relocation agency.  Both China's ignored the request.

any chance of a new offer being made in light of the humanitarian scenario now unfolding?

Who's in charge of the RRC, I have business to discuss. Course if the new emperor is more enlightened NS would be willing to discuss business with the MK too.

I might be willing to listen, what do you have in mind?

Quote from: Desertfox on November 08, 2010, 10:24:25 PM
Who's in charge of the RRC, I have business to discuss. Course if the new emperor is more enlightened NS would be willing to discuss business with the MK too.

The mods

Quote from: Desertfox on November 08, 2010, 10:24:25 PM
Who's in charge of the RRC, I have business to discuss. Course if the new emperor is more enlightened NS would be willing to discuss business with the MK too.

Beware of the evil Swiss. Dealing with them will cost you an arm and a leg... and another arm and another leg... and your soul. :D

Figure it cant hurt to ask what is on his mind.

Question: The Green Cross and disaster aid. How does all of that work? I think I will be needing some help in that regard

I don't think the Green Cross is going to be able to help in this case, maybe Katrina size but not the massive disaster that is brewing up in China.

Hey! I'm running a 50% off deal here! It's only an arm and a leg, the soul I already collected when he asked...  ;D

some help is better than none.

Egypt may be willing to charter a ship for the Green Crescent.  (Egypt lacks a significant merchant marine.)

No green cresent....  it's only a Green Cross. 

Non have petitioned to start a green Cresent, so it's only the Green Cross organisation, what gets direct and aknowledged support from France and Gran Colombia.

the Nverse variant of L'Institute Pasteur works very intimate with the Green Cross.

Quote from: maddox on November 09, 2010, 05:55:19 PM
No green cresent....  it's only a Green Cross. 

Non have petitioned to start a green Cresent, so it's only the Green Cross organisation, what gets direct and aknowledged support from France and Gran Colombia.

the Nverse variant of L'Institute Pasteur works very intimate with the Green Cross.

Alright then, Egypt will support the Green Cross's efforts.

Oh, there's gonna be a Green Crescent, if I ever get in a writing groove.  ;)

So total up all the Humanitarian aide decide where its going to ship from and on Who's ships and then tell me what ports they are heading to...... ;)

Now where did I put that submarine encounter chart... ;D

Good thing I can send my humanitarian aid via RR into China and not via sea. :)

(looks at RRC subs) really...going after Green Cross flagged ships? what am i going to do with you...(starts stacking depth charges)

The most famous hip that has carried the Green Cross  , Le Magnificent, is only torpedo'd twice, and only geography saved her in those circumstances.

Eyes Walter rail road warily, Hmmm does the Japanese Railroad connect to the Trans Siberian Railroad somewhere before it gets to Vladivostok.

I comment on ships and ports because both sides are apparently using Subs, mines, and small Destroyers to interdict each other's Sea Lanes of Control [SLOC] since at least one side is also using airpower during daylight hours then the other is conducting naval operations after dark.   Mines don't care what flag a vessel fly's and after dark it is kind of hard for a sub or destroyer to Identify a ship unless the ship is sailing with lights on and flag painted in 14' on its side.  [US did this in WWII prior to entering the war.]

I don't remember either side declaring a naval blockade of the other ports but to be honest "looking at the orders they are sort of carrying such an action out."

Charles

Quote from: ctwaterman on November 10, 2010, 05:53:58 PM
Eyes Walter rail road warily, Hmmm does the Japanese Railroad connect to the Trans Siberian Railroad somewhere before it gets to Vladivostok.

I comment on ships and ports because both sides are apparently using Subs, mines, and small Destroyers to interdict each other's Sea Lanes of Control [SLOC] since at least one side is also using airpower during daylight hours then the other is conducting naval operations after dark.   Mines don't care what flag a vessel fly's and after dark it is kind of hard for a sub or destroyer to Identify a ship unless the ship is sailing with lights on and flag painted in 14' on its side.  [US did this in WWII prior to entering the war.]

Holland and Russia can arrange aid overland through the Mongolian RR. Contact Blooded or me for details.

D.  

QuoteI don't remember either side declaring a naval blockade of the other ports but to be honest "looking at the orders they are sort of carrying such an action out."

Charles

QuoteThe Imperial Sub Qqianting08 is operating decks awash off the coast but suffers from severe target fixation and is spotted and shelled by no less then 3 RRC MTBs.

Funny this should happen to one of my boats. You basically summed up the way I die most often in Silent Hunter  ;D

Quote from: snip on December 03, 2010, 12:01:27 AM

QuoteThe Imperial Sub Qqianting08 is operating decks awash off the coast but suffers from severe target fixation and is spotted and shelled by no less then 3 RRC MTBs.

Funny this should happen to one of my boats. You basically summed up the way I die most often in Silent Hunter  ;D

Target Fixiation is quite ofter a problem for Big Game Hunters, Sub Skippers, and Fighter Pilots....

The Big Game Hunter keeps squeezing the trigger and wonders why the gun dont go bang with the 12 point buck 50 yards away and in the cross hairs.... [Slow down breathe slowly... oh and disengage the safety :) ]

Sub skippers get the Capital Ship in their sight and they sneak in and sneak in and forget to look around at all the Destroyers sneaking up on him....

Fighter Pilots.... when chasing an enemy fighter keep checking the rear view mirror the enemy had a wing man or two and the just might be hunting you while you are hunting your target.

Charles