Bardiche, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1902)
Displacement:
26,319 t light; 27,814 t standard; 29,520 t normal; 30,885 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 10,092 lbs / 4,578 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 705.38 ft / 215.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines plus steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,898 ihp / 14,844 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,800nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,071 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
1,125 - 1,463
Cost:
£2.423 million / $9.692 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,261 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 10,045 tons, 34.0 %
- Belts: 4,711 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,771 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,320 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 243 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,158 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,329 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,201 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46,049 lbs / 20,888 Kg = 55.9 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.648
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.9 %
Waterplane Area: 53,088 Square feet or 4,932 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 780 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Class of three:
Bardiche
Raging Heart
Reinforce
The above is the current layout of my Bardiche class battleships, the beating heart of the Maori battleline. For all their tonnage, they're massively inefficient, with a variety of serious flaws that are mostly to do with the fact that, at the time I designed them, I had no real clue what I was doing.
Naturally, given my own inability to forgive myself for any mistake, figuring out how to fix them has been an ongoing obsession.
The latest evolution of my thinking looks like this...
Bardiche Assault, Maori Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
35,209 t light; 37,597 t standard; 41,016 t normal; 43,752 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
717.23 ft / 705.38 ft x 111.55 ft x 27.23 ft (normal load)
218.61 m / 215.00 m x 34.00 m x 8.30 m
Armament:
10 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (5x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.31lbs / 0.59kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 18,528 lbs / 8,404 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 479.66 ft / 146.20 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.98" / 25 mm 479.66 ft / 146.20 m 26.61 ft / 8.11 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 35,357 shp / 26,376 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,154 tons
Complement:
1,440 - 1,873
Cost:
£5.502 million / $22.007 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,316 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 15,948 tons, 38.9 %
- Belts: 6,155 tons, 15.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 465 tons, 1.1 %
- Armament: 4,473 tons, 10.9 %
- Armour Deck: 4,471 tons, 10.9 %
- Conning Tower: 383 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,317 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,128 tons, 36.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,807 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
71,899 lbs / 32,613 Kg = 42.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 12.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.670
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (16 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (16 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.90 ft / 6.06 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.8 %
Waterplane Area: 61,387 Square feet or 5,703 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 946 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
2.6BP/$6.6 - Basic Reconstruction cost
1.3BP/$2.6 - New Engines
2.3BP/$4.6 - Armament replaced
15.9BP/$15.9 - Complete replacement and redesign of all armor, including addition of torpedo bulkhead
0.5BP/$0.5 - Fire control and other arrangements replaced
22.6BP/$31.2 - Grand total bill over 2 1/2 years.
An equivalent new ship would take four years and cost $35, so overall, the effort does actually pay for itself. Barely, granted, but given other factors, that's enough.
Is that sort of reconstruction even physically possible? Sure she was way over sized, but you'd need to cut new holes in the deck and lots of structure for those need barbettes, then figure out what to do with the remaining holes from all those single mounts on the side.
It would, I figure, amount to ripping much of the ship into its component parts, figuring out what you could keep and what would need to change, scrapping the parts that wouldn't work and building replacements, then reassembling the entire thing again. Not a matter of, 'open it up and lift this bit out', but of a multi-acre junkyard that's no longer recognizable as a ship, and two years later you have three senior engineers standing together wondering where that extra bolt goes.
In all honesty, I'm fixing these things come hell or high water, and be damned to the cost. The only question is when, and how long it'll take.
You have those 3 big 11.81 barbettes in each side. Why not adding tripple or even quad 150's there? Makes the change a little less drastic.
As I see it, it's like retaining anchors and ships bell, and build a new ship around these.
Jebus man and I thought my reconstruction projects were out there... I think you could do it, the only question I see is would it be worth it. If you are dedicated to fixing them and this is the plan you want to go with I say do it, but make sure the Eng. types figure out where that last bolt goes.
QuoteYou have those 3 big 11.81 barbettes in each side. Why not adding tripple or even quad 150's there? Makes the change a little less drastic.
First, I don't have the 'any size barbettes' tech, so it'd be technically illegal.
Second, the 'reconstructed' layout is A-Q(R)S-X, so midships flank turrets would be fouling the arcs of 3/5ths of the main battery.
QuoteAs I see it, it's like retaining anchors and ships bell, and build a new ship around these.
Not
just the bell, but yes, somewhat. Given the kinds of notions polynesian religion seems to have about the 'spirits of objects', I suspect that this is actually a more in-character action than it first appears, but I'll be the first to admit that the real driving factor is my own neuroses.
QuoteJebus man and I thought my reconstruction projects were out there... I think you could do it, the only question I see is would it be worth it. If you are dedicated to fixing them and this is the plan you want to go with I say do it, but make sure the Eng. types figure out where that last bolt goes.
Mmm. My goals are to get a some kind of real return on these things, beyond the bad joke of their scrap 'value', and to end up with a real front-line battleship. If that boils down to a forty-percent BP discount on what's effectively a new battleship, so be it.
The only thing common in the two designs is the waterline length. You proposed reconstruction would be the like the USN did with the monitors. You can keep neither the nameplate or the ship bell as you change everything on the ship. Like at least half the original frames and plating that you cannot really reuse in the new one. Most probably there's nothing you could keep from the old hull in the new ship.
I.e. you have a scrap value of 3.9BP and your true cost is then 31BP.
So basically stripping it down to her hull frame and more or less starting over from that.
Quote from: Ithekro on March 09, 2010, 12:55:40 AM
So basically stripping it down to her hull frame keel and more or less starting over from that.
FIFY (fixed it for you)
QuoteThe only thing common in the two designs is the waterline length. You proposed reconstruction would be the like the USN did with the monitors. You can keep neither the nameplate or the ship bell as you change everything on the ship. Like at least half the original frames and plating that you cannot really reuse in the new one. Most probably there's nothing you could keep from the old hull in the new ship.
I.e. you have a scrap value of 3.9BP and your true cost is then 31BP.
If the mods choose to enforce such a thing, perhaps.
But that is the only situation under which I'll produce so much wasteful trash.
Main problem I see is that you're changing the beam significantly (+4 m/13.3%, 30 -> 34 m) and the draft by 1.3 m/18.6% (7 -> 8.3 m) but keep the freeboard (6 m) the same. I don't think you can call this a reconstruction. Especially the beam change doesn't seem plausible to me. Combined with the "internal" changes you're very much building an entirely new ship.
You have a point about the freeboard, at least. Will need to fix that sometime other than 3:40am. The draft-change is calculated according to total hull girder height, IE, 6m+7m=13m*0.1=1.3m.
The difference in beam is, essentially, a case of designing 'torpedo bulges' so that they end up so integrated into the ship's structure that they are, strengthwise, part of the hull. The torpedo bulkheads, for instance, run along the line of the original hull surface, which makes the entire system fairly vulnerable as such things go. A legacy of the original design, so to speak.
That's really big reconstruction, bigger than Kongo & Cavour class
Really too expensive for 1906 BBs !!!
You could simply change the guns & increase from 305 to 320.
&/or install 6xT2x275 (2 superfiring) in side distribution...thats all.
IMO, Use the BPs in new ships is a better choice.
Jef
A sane government would shoot the guy(s) who would come up with a wasteful plan like that for treason! :D
Are there any real life examples where a ship's beam is so radically altered (without using bulges) as this?
Certainly adding what amounts to a second hull outside the first one will result in hull weights *alot* heavier than the brand new conventional hull SS2 simmed. That alone ought to make this thing untenable.
SS2 bulges would be ok, but widening the beam is probably not. You will also want to try to preserve the overall hull depth, meaning if she gets deeper, you'll want to lower "freeboard" a bit. Still, in that scenario, we can't accurately capture the fact that the main belt will now sit deeper in the water.
I'd have to agree: this concept is something that goes beyond a reconstruction to... something else. Maybe the approach is to list the components (by weight) you want to reuse, and then total up the scrap value of the rest, subtracting those weights from the cost of a brand new ship. This may give a better representation of the real costs involved.
And building in new bulkheads is simpler, somehow, and therefore allowed? Huh. Odd.
*shrug*
Bardiche Assault, Maori Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
35,006 t light; 37,667 t standard; 41,106 t normal; 43,858 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
712.72 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 27.23 ft (normal load)
217.24 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 8.30 m
Armament:
10 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (5x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,768 lbs / 9,874 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.98" / 25 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 26.74 ft / 8.15 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 35,696 shp / 26,630 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,191 tons
Complement:
1,443 - 1,876
Cost:
£5.493 million / $21.972 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,316 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 15,307 tons, 37.2 %
- Belts: 6,240 tons, 15.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 481 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 3,927 tons, 9.6 %
- Armour Deck: 4,275 tons, 10.4 %
- Conning Tower: 384 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,330 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,553 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,101 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
61,562 lbs / 27,924 Kg = 36.5 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.761
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.91 ft / 1.80 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Stern: 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Average freeboard: 15.48 ft / 4.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.5 %
Waterplane Area: 58,701 Square feet or 5,453 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,025 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.15
- Longitudinal: 0.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
2.6BP/$6.6 - Basic Reconstruction cost
1.3BP/$2.6 - New Engines
2.3BP/$4.6 - Armament replaced
15.3BP/$15.3 - Complete replacement and redesign of all armor, including addition of torpedo bulkhead
0.5BP/$0.5 - Fire control and other arrangements replaced
22BP/$30.6 - Grand total bill over 2 1/2 years.
For the 'what are you saving approach... Call it sixty, seventy percent of the original structure, mostly in crew areas or other non-critical points. Point six-five times twenty-six, 16.9 BP - call it seventeen since we're guessing wildly anyway. Total new stuff is thus 18BP, plus 2.6BP and $6.6 'reconstructing' the kept material. Scrapped material, 9BP*0.15=$1.35. Net total, 19BP and $23.
As I said, scrap value's not just a joke, but a bad joke.
New guns, new armor, new engines... Ever heard the phrase "New wine in old wine jars"?
Then again why am I dissuading you? NS completely agrees that this rebuild is most neccessary and viable!
(That is NOT my invasion fleet you see approaching your coast...)
QuoteEver heard the phrase "New wine in old wine jars"?
Sounds to me like "recycling". ;D
Quote(That is NOT my invasion fleet you see approaching your coast...)
Just the pieces of the ships floating back to Maori. :D
Do take into account that things will need to be removed to get to other areas of the ship. You might have to remove a lot of non-essential areas of the ship just to get the engine out of the hull. It isn't like the ship is modular, rivets and all that.
At the midships' point, even with the flank turrets and where the new centerline ones need to go, you're removing the old magazines, the old reciprocating machinery (at the centerline), decking where the new barbettes need to go, the old barbettes,and outer hull structure from the top of the belt to the keel, to account for the thicker belt and new torpedo bulkhead. Points fore and aft of that mess can be gotten to by eating away at the 'inside' - pulling out the turbine and boiler rooms through that hole, then the end barbettes through the vacated engine spaces. The new electric motor rooms, and most of the new armor suite, can be added from the outside, so to speak.
...hm.
*opens file and tries out a 40mm upper belt*
Hmm, 45mm... that works.
No, wait, DAMMIT, SS, LEAVE MY SHELL WEIGHTS ALONE! *glares*
...there, fixed.
Bardiche Assault, Maori Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
35,338 t light; 38,006 t standard; 41,468 t normal; 44,238 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
716.66 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 27.23 ft (normal load)
218.44 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 8.30 m
Armament:
10 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (5x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 21,768 lbs / 9,874 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.57" / 40 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.98" / 25 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 26.71 ft / 8.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 35,955 shp / 26,823 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,232 tons
Complement:
1,452 - 1,888
Cost:
£5.514 million / $22.057 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,316 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 15,582 tons, 37.6 %
- Belts: 6,570 tons, 15.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 480 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 3,927 tons, 9.5 %
- Armour Deck: 4,300 tons, 10.4 %
- Conning Tower: 305 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,340 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,600 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,131 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
62,438 lbs / 28,321 Kg = 37.0 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.768
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Stern: 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Average freeboard: 15.48 ft / 4.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.4 %
Waterplane Area: 59,039 Square feet or 5,485 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,023 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.15
- Longitudinal: 0.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Armor deck is 60mm at 1.0 quality + 40mm 1.1 quality detonator plate spaced at 3m (1 deck). Main belt is 1.1 quality sloped 20 degrees.
Let's see what is possible according to the rules:
"The bow may be lengthened by up to 5% of overall length. A new section may be added amidships, up to 5% of overall length. "
You are adding a 21m section amidship increasing the citadel (from 129m to 150m). As no provisions allow decreasing the length of the ship ends, the ship must be lengthened by the same 21m.
Refurbishment/Reconstruction rules regarding armor:
"New armor decks, external belts, and external bulges for torpedo defence (not "torpedo bulkheads") can be added. Existing armor decks, external belts, or weapon armor can be replaced or removed (not increased). "
...
"Internal belts can be replaced or removed. Torpedo Bulkheads can be added."
I.e. no allowance to increase original vertical armor according to rules. Neither in height nor thickness. Only Harvey steel replaced by imp. KC plates.
Find a better excuse (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=340.msg2949#msg2949).
Quote from: Valles on March 09, 2010, 12:34:33 PM
Find a better excuse (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=340.msg2949#msg2949).
::)
It's a good excuse, and the moderators will deliberate about it.
For now, I have stated before, and will repeat, it looks like you're retaining anchors and ships bell and build a new ship around it. But that's my personal view.
Ever tought how a 1910 rivetted hull should be taken appart for "re-use"?
Drilling out good steel rivets, without making the holes oval or breaking a drill.
As metal worker I had the fun experience doing this on a smaller scale at school. First making a steel cube 4" a side, with 12 rivets in each rib.
Then to remove a side and make it hinged, again rivetted.
The rivets were self forged. I had the stupid idea of using a piece of silversteel rod. After forging them, they were glass hard, so I could only rivet them glowing red.
After cooling, those were again hard and brittle as glass. Great when you have to drill them out. In the end I had to anglegrind the head off, very carefully. Because the teacher had forbidden the use of powertools. The only tools we had acces too were the hand tools, that was part of the job.
But imagine an anglegrinder in 1920....
Quote from: P3D on March 09, 2010, 12:31:39 PM
You are adding a 21m section amidship increasing the citadel (from 129m to 150m). As no provisions allow decreasing the length of the ship ends, the ship must be lengthened by the same 21m.
Refurbishment/Reconstruction rules regarding armor:
"New armor decks, external belts, and external bulges for torpedo defence (not "torpedo bulkheads") can be added. Existing armor decks, external belts, or weapon armor can be replaced or removed (not increased). "
...
"Internal belts can be replaced or removed. Torpedo Bulkheads can be added."
If you can add or replace armor belts, then increasing the citadel (which is in principle the mostly armored part of the ship) shouldn't be a problem either.
More important is in my opinion that no beam increase is mentioned.
"armor can be replaced or removed (not increased)"
Means, from my point of view, that if you want you want to 'increase' armor you have to replace it completely - making it very expansive but possible.
The intent, which admittedly isn't so clear in the rules at the moment, was to make it impossible to willy-nilly change hull lines on an existent hull. Broader beam certainly would mean changing hull lines. Inserting a new hull section, or lengthening the bow (and frankly also the stern) Italian style is also ok, since the lines of the rest of the existing hull aren't changing.
I'm not sure that lengthening the "armored citadel" (which may not be a great term for non-aon ships) without lengthening the ship itself is ok or not. The lynchpin there is likely moving fore and aft armored bulkheads. This seems like it should be ok to me.
At any rate, these questions, in my opinion, are neither here nor there. This does not appear to me to be a reconstruction, but rather something beyond that.
More or less everything we do here is subject to Mod review in the interest of upholding Rule Number 1, as well as in the interest of maintaining game playability and basic fairness. We also are the arbiters of the Rules of Physics in the Nverse. :)
I think this concept demands a Mod discussion. So we'll need to confer, and get back to everyone on this. Please continue to discuss amongst yourselves, but let's keep it civil.
Edited to remove redundantly redundant grammar.
If my last response was overly confrontational or flippant, then I'll apologize for that - my impression of P3D's logic chain is along the lines of 'Is this a sufficiently unoriginal mimicry of real history? No? How can I prevent it from coming to pass? Persuasion? Rule technicalities? Changed rules?' ...and so on, which I have not the slightest patience for. That said, it's my own responsibility to maintain courtesy and useful dialog in my own posts, and, out of a combination of irritation and a need to get to class, I failed to do so.
Since reconstruction involved, by definition, 'more serious' changes than those detailed in the refurbishment level that P3D was quoting, I made the assumption that the necessary reinforcement for increased armor would fall there; likewise the addition and expansion of barbettes, which could be moved or replaced under the previous level - the latter would be, I think, at least as complex as adding one save for not needing to order the new hardware. Adding torpedo bulkheads is explicitly mentioned as being possible in that kind of workup,
QuoteArmor and functional miscellaneous weight
Internal belts can be replaced or removed. Torpedo Bulkheads can be added.
BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
like so.
If the Mods choose to rule that it's simply impossible to make these hulls live up to their tonnage, I'll accept that and find something else to do with them, possibly as amphibious assault ships or something. I trust the Moderator Council to decide out of a sense of game balance and what's literally practical, and if that's bad for me, I don't see any reason to raise a stink about it.
My main concern is that SS2 cannot simulate extensive reconstruction correctly at all - except of a few very limited cases. It always assumes a newbuilt structure that is 'optimized' for the given weight distribution. It cannot even simulate bulging a hull correctly. Thus the limitations.
Thus it can simulate accurately only:
- no changes in hull dimensions, displacement and not large changes in weight distribution: engines, limited armament/misc. weight). Or the proposed Hood reconstruction, removing upper belt and increasing deck armor.
- 'plugging' in a short section amidships or lengthening the bow, with some additional (not that trivial) calculations to justify the resulting displacement. This is with keeping beam and draught the same.
Looking a long time at the Bardiche drawing & SS. I could suggest a mixture of historical rebuilts -
Change the fore part from the bridge to the bow(Gneisenau)
On the new fore part, install 2T2x320 mm (B superfiring).
320 could take the place of the 305 (Cavour).
-6T1x305 side turrets could be changed to 6T2x250 (Maoria Turrets).
You have certainly the possibility to increase the speed to about 25kts
Finaly
3T2x320 + 6T2x250 - 25kts...
a correct BB...
or... sell them!!!
Jef ;)
Quote from: Jefgte on March 09, 2010, 04:29:37 PM
Looking a long time at the Bardiche drawing & SS. I could suggest a mixture of historical rebuilts -
320 could take the place of the 305 (Cavour).
I disagree on this point. This suggest that the Cavour and her guns were overengineered. No one simmed their 12" battleships assuming the same weight as a 320mm guns (which weighed less after bored out), so it is not applicable in N3verse. The Italian 12"/46s were 5-11t heavier (63,500kg) than other 12"/45 guns (Skoda 52,650kg, UK 58,626kg, US 54,000kg, France 54,700kg).
Before I go into the huddle with the other Mods, I need some clarification on the freeboard.
First, I'll note that the current rules set limits freeboard changes to 10%.
As originally built, the ship's draught + average freeboard is 14.2 metres. The latest sim adds up to 13.02 metres, but has the hull strength for an increas of some kind. Also, the old sim has a raised forecastle and quarterdeck, whereas the new sim appears to be flush-decked.
So if you can re-examine and confirm your ideal intentions, I'll have a better snapshot of what we're talking about.
The raised forecastle and quarterdeck would be razed, then the entire ship permitted to ride 1.3 meters lower.
Thanks - note the 10% limit on change I flagged above.
*blinks*
...so, you're saying that the alteration of forces and structure starts counting from the average of parts... that aren't there any more.
...Well, if that's the rule.
Guess I'll need two rebuild cycles to 'finish', then.
First iteration would be summat so:
Bardiche Assault, Maori Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
26,871 t light; 28,356 t standard; 31,297 t normal; 33,650 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
709.39 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
216.22 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
10 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (5x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 10,006 lbs / 4,539 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.57" / 40 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.98" / 25 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 30,240 shp / 22,559 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,293 tons
Complement:
1,176 - 1,529
Cost:
£3.497 million / $13.986 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,236 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 12,575 tons, 40.2 %
- Belts: 5,238 tons, 16.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 398 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 2,680 tons, 8.6 %
- Armour Deck: 4,006 tons, 12.8 %
- Conning Tower: 253 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,127 tons, 3.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,433 tons, 36.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,426 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
74,329 lbs / 33,715 Kg = 90.2 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 13.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.32
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.687
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.88 ft / 6.06 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.4 %
Waterplane Area: 55,003 Square feet or 5,110 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 790 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.03
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Armor deck is 60mm at 1.0 quality + 40mm 1.1 quality detonator plate spaced at 3m (1 deck). Main belt is 1.1 quality sloped 20 degrees.
What I'm saying is: "The rule set is designed to prevent people from building light battleships and turning them into heavy battleships by adding ballast."
...I'm not sure the Bardiches would count as 'light' in any era, but I take your meaning well enough. If I'm over the line in that regard, feel free to mention it. I don't think I'll be able to bring myself to give up entirely on upping their firepower and armor to 'frontline' them again, but 35cm might be more achievable.
Testing an other rebuilt...
Bardiche converted to Heavy Escort Cruiser...
I change the 300mm guns to 250mm guns.
- 2T3x250mm - A & B
- 6T2x250mm - side -2 superfiring
- Reuse the 150mm guns but in twin mounts 1 deck higher.
- Change the engines & increase range & speed to 25kts.
Bardiche rebuilt, Maoria Heavy Escort Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
26 620 t light; 28 137 t standard; 29 520 t normal; 30 627 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
706.93 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
215.47 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m x 7.00 m
Armament:
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x3 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (6x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 10 245 lbs / 4 647 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 423.23 ft / 129.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 5.91" / 150 mm 282.12 ft / 85.99 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 705.38 ft / 215.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
3rd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
4th: 2.36" / 60 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 66 000 shp / 49 236 Kw = 25.02 kts
Range 7 500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 490 tons
Complement:
1 125 - 1 463
Cost:
£2.331 million / $9.322 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 281 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 10 619 tons, 36.0 %
- Belts: 4 711 tons, 16.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3 345 tons, 11.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2 320 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 243 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2 308 tons, 7.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11 988 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 900 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 425 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50 409 lbs / 22 865 Kg = 105.7 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.33
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.648
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.9 %
Waterplane Area: 53 088 Square feet or 4 932 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 825 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.13
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia
Class of three:
Bardiche
Raging Heart
Reinforce
Quote from: Valles on March 09, 2010, 07:51:19 PM
Bardiche Assault, Maori Battleship laid down 1916
Armament:
10 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (5x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
I'm curious, what is the Main Battery layout of these? I'm thinking A/Q/Y and 2 beam turrets (like "Dreadnought").
18x250mm was and is, indeed, one of my runner-up concepts, Jef, in case of more extensive alterations getting scotched. There'd be some differences in how I'd do it - I'd probably stash the 150s for use in a later escort cruiser, and go with 100mm for a secondary battery, given that the 250s would be 'handier' than full-on 300mm battleship guns, for instance, but something like that is, indeed, in the realm of possibility. I'd prefer to avoid it because turning her into a cruiser-hunter, however potent, seems like a waste of a battleship's tonnage to me.
Elf, the main battery layout of the 'battleship drafts' is one I've been almost desperate to do, all centerline with A and X and a pyramid Q(R)S midships.