If there is an N-verse 4.0, what nation or type of nation would you like to have? Include all your options.
For me:
Mexican Empire (PoD 1845AD), greater Mexico - Texas + Hawaii/Phillipines
Kingdom of Israel (PoD 70AD), Israel (under King Solomon) + outlying 'Phoenician' colonies
Carthage (PoD 300BC?), Carthage at the time of Hannibal
Persian Empre (PoD 500 BC?, 100 AD?), Persia under Darius?
Indonesia (PoD ???), The N-Verse DEI
Greater Siam (PoD ???), Siam + expanded territories
New Switzerland 2.0 (PoD ???), Modified version of N-verse, maybe including Antartica
The Coorporate Penguin Police State of Antartica (PoD ???), Antartica nuff said...
Obioulsy Mexico would be my 1st choice, but any of the above would be most interesting to play, and they have different PoD depending on what is choosen.
I choose Russia.....or Israel(Typing this at a synougouge) :D
Inca Empire... of course...
Jef
Well I would like to play a nation whose language I know.
Preferably Germany. England/UK/GB would also be nice. I could also think of a Danish or Norman state. Oh and I could also play the Romans, my Latin however is very rusted and I never learned how to translate things into Latin.
Whichever, it doesn't have to be at the historic location especially with a 50 m rise in sea level.
The Empire of the East Sea (Higashikai no Teikoku) had its earliest origin in the alliance between the Korean kingdom of Silla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silla) - then the smallest and least powerful of the three kingdoms vying for control over the Korean peninsula - and the Yamato state in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asuka_period). (OTL, Yamato allied with Silla's rival to the west, Baekje) Through careful diplomatic efforts, the two allies were able to deny any form of Tang Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty) support to the other kingdoms of the Korean peninsula while securing useful concessions for themselves, and eventually crushed both Baekje in 677 (17 years later than OTL, where Silla had formed an outright alliance with the Chinese) and Goguryo in 690 (22 years later than OTL), but without debts for and dependence on outright Chinese military aid, was able to claim Goguryo's full territory and maintain it in the face of one minor war with China, one invasion of and two by Japan, until its eventual fall in 1101.
A similar pattern would persist through another two dynasties and nearly five hundred years - albeit witha major hiccup during the Mongol invasion of the area and the subsequent Yuan Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Dynasty) - before a Japanese invasion headed by general Toyotomi Hideyoshi in the name of newly 'appointed' shogun Oda Nobunaga conquered all territories then held by the kingdom of Joseon between the years of 1591 and 1602.
Given its possession of extensive mainland territories, the Oda Shogunate recognized the impossibility of adopting a 'sealed' social system free from destabilizing outside influences, and instead instituted a policy of making the Shogunate itself the first to adopt any improvements and innovations found useful - and independant innovation, in turn, became a form of impingement on shogunal prerogatives, with all the drastic and permanent consequences that implied.
While Japanese influence over the resulting state would eventually prove to be the dominant factor, originally Korean thoughts and traits had great influence on political history, particularly in that the excellent Joseon civil service system was co-opted entirely by the Shogunate, and would eventually prove the key power-base driving the ascension of the Imperial line to real power, a process taking some decades but complete beyond question by about 1740, when Oda Hajime was dismissed outright as Shogun after a quarrel with the Emperor's younger sister.
At game start, the Higashikai no Teikoku would consist of its core territory of Koryou and the five home islands of Nippon, the seperate islands of Qi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Qi), Lu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Lu), and Taiwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan), as well as Manchuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_China) and all but one (specifically, the Sakha Republic) of the districts making up real-world Russia's Far East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Eastern_Federal_District). In short, a quite considerable local power, and one with ample reason to invest in a navy given its geographic discontinuity, but not a state likely to go adventuring globally.
I would like:
Burgundy (stretching from the low countries down Verdun-Metz-Lorraine to Bourgogne and Nevers down to Avigon/Provence) [PoD 1475]
Teutonic Order (OTL land before Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic War losts + Pomerania + Danzig + St-Petersburg/Novogrod; a Teutonic Order that successfully drove East) [PoD 1410]
Irish Empire :P (All of Ireland + Iceland + Greenland + Canada) [PoD ?]
Continental England (All of British Isles - Ireland, + Normandy/Brittany/Gascony; Normandy/Brittany down to Loire, Gascony to Garonne) [PoD 1429]
The Corporate Penguin Police State of Antarctica [PoD ?]
Please do not put much emphasis into all of it until it is decided that where the colonies* would be. If we want colonies to be in the Western Hemisphere, the Incas might not be the best idea. Same for e.g. Orange.
*Assuming we need colonies that make sense
Is P3D returning?
I request Russia
Or Texas!
Hmmm... lotsa choices appeal to me.
Carthage, of course... just don't expect any creative Carthaginian words. ;)
A united Mvskoke (Creek Indian) nation, which would encompass most/all of the tribes in that general linguistic group or related ones (pretty much the SE US). Not exactly a world power, but a nice, solid regional one since they would have coal, iron and eventually oil at their disposal.
My idea for a culture (if you can call the loose outline I have an idea even) would be a multiethnic, limited franchise Monarchy with some gorean overtones, the primary Religion of my state would be Druidic but there would actualy be no state sponserd religion. The entire basis for law in said Nation would be personal responsability.
the PoD for the world this nation exists in could realy be anywhere in history, and the map isnt necessarily all that important either, although I would argue for somthing resembeling the world we liv in. If somthing resembeling our world was chosen I would like to have the north eastern United states extending past the great plains to include Colorado, Wyoming and Montana.
that may sound like alot but I figure it isnt any worse than asking for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
I'd be more than content with a continental nations with sea access on at least one coast that's not easily interdicted by another nation (Basically I don't want the be OTL Germany where the RN can sit off Wilhelmshaven and thumb their nose at me).
I'd like said nation to be a mid level power with the resources to move up over time w/ good decision making on my part and some luck.
For 'natural enemies' I'd like some other mid level powers nearby/neighboring that can lead to some minor border scuffles and other 'small scale' wars.
If a colony is granted I'd prefer something truly backwater but resource rich with high population.
Can fit into pretty much any time/map/PoD reality.
I posted what nation's I would like to see, but I would actually like to play a major maritime power as opposed to the land power I currently possess. Secluded on islands sounds nice.
I had mentioned it before but I shall list it here as well.
Nordic: I would envision a united scandinavia(Norway, Sweden,Finland) Iceland, Greenland plus eastern Canada. This would go well as a reason for nation #2. Maybe better for one of our many European players?
5-6 Nations(Iroquois Confederacy): roughly the UKA territory in N3(perhaps expanded into the plains further). Due to early contact with Vikings, cloth, domestic animals and iron weapons are introduced around 1000AD. Allowing a much larger population and better tech to resist Euro expansion. The familiarity with domesticated animals allowed a greater level of protection from the diseases which wiped them out in OTL. This could work out well with Carthaginian's SE NA 'Indian' nation.
Japan: This appears to be desired by many so I will drop a claim here.
IMO Valles' Idea of the fully formed East Sea... sounds a bit big and compact(easy to defend). with a colony type china I would expect it would be too easy to become mega/major status unless they are very backward. The other nation ideas I noticed(except Russia) seemed OK for equal level PCs.
Perhaps with a rough point system for nation generation would be in order? A massive nation would be rather backward. Smaller, more developed. With bonus/penalty or something for difficulty/ease to defend(ie island, two separate fleets required, location to other major powers, etc.).
QuoteIMO Valles' Idea of the fully formed East Sea... sounds a bit big and compact(easy to defend). with a colony type china I would expect it would be too easy to become mega/major status unless they are very backward. The other nation ideas I noticed(except Russia) seemed OK for equal level PCs.
The hundred-meter flood contour I'm assuming at this point will turn OTL-Shangdong province into two separate offshore islands, whose names I based off of ancient provinces in the modern one's area. Mainland China would explicitly and emphatically
not be included in either starting or future claims.
My proposed territory is predicated on the same 'nation size' assumptions I outlined recently in the other thread, of ten-to-twenty states of, well, about the same scale I requested. The 'historically core' territories would be Korea, Japan, and what we think of as eastern Manchuria; the others could be added and subtracted according to the needs of game balance.
While not wishing to interfere with those with such ambitions themselves, under
no circumstances will I, personally, be adopting some kind of indefensible cross-globe adventurism, whatever nation I end up playing. Suggestions to that effect are neither welcome nor subject to any form of actual consideration.
I think a point-buy system would actually be a good idea, but this thread probably isn't the best place to discuss or work it out.
The real problem we are having is between the camps of 'starting size.'
You have people that want to be the 'big boys' to start off, and the people that want to have to work to it.
Valles, your idea looks gigantic to those that want to start off with moderate nations- and honestly, since it makes up a large portion of Japan's intended conquests in their attempt to capture the Pacific... well, the word mega-superpower comes to mind. With little more than the Home Islands and Korea, Japan became a world power- throw in 75% of the Co-Prosparity Sphere as planned, and you're talking a nation with Rohan or France kind of potential.
DF wanting a 'Mexican Empire' that eats up all of old Mexico and most/all the Rocky Mountain/High Plains territory is another one that screams 'too big.' Add in what's left of Hawai'i and you are starting to get people's attention.
Of course, ya'll don't think anything about the size of the claims... because you expect the rest of us to have giant nations as well. So, there is no 'lack of balance' in your plan. But most of us don't want monsters- we want nations that require some 'growing' to make them big.
Valles and DF, could you imagine your nations not having so large a 'core?'
What would you want if the average start size of a nation was under 20 BP?
I, too, think some kind of 'point buy' is a good idea if implemented right.
The question is, how exactly do we value things in a totally fictional world?
I wouldn't mind if everyone had the same (or roughly) equal starting conditions - except if he/she wants less.
Why would a Mexican Empire be too big? Yeah it's big in terms of land area but so is Canada. There really isn't much in New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and most of California. Like right now I think NS is 2nd in terms of land area after Russia.
Quote...Why would a Mexican Empire be too big?...
For a war with Inca Empire... :D :D :D
Jef
I think specific talk of nations is kind of premature. One needs to settle on a map and a POD to really understand what the world would look like on the starting date. A 50 meter sea level increase is going to profoundly affect the course of human development and history to the point that ATL political divisions might be unrecognizable compared to OTL.
For example, if much of historical China is under water, something has to have happened with to the millions of people that would've lived there in OTL. Did they huddle closer on the remaining territory? Did they all migrate to higher ground that would historically belong to somebody else? There might not be a "Korea" or "Mongolia" as we know it because it's been swamped by Chinese.
So we're settled on the 50m sea level increase?
Me and Carth are againist this, after speaking in PM land. We can deal with 10-15, but no more.
Rock, most of us are thinking as much in terms of 'cultures' as 'nations' right now.
Besides, even if we DO pick a totally fictional word, we're going to anchor what we want as a nation in the real world and what we know. There's only so much 'alien' that we can think before we overstretch our imaginations and fall back on the familiar.
And I don't like the 50m increase, but I can deal with it.
50m , sounds a lot, but in 1885 it will give better anchorages in the Fjords of the Norge lands.
Also, with that sea-level increase, the overall temperature should be a tad higher.
Meaning more hurricanes, Typhoons and classic storms all over.
Dannemora... here I come.
When is this going to happen? There's no point speculating if this will happen 5 real years away...
Don't worry, if it's up to me, the Nverse III ain't dying yet.
I'm merely using the 50m as an example, as it seems to come up a fair bit. I have no idea what the final decision is actually going to be.
Carth: Yep, some of y'all are doing that. I gave some thought to the Iroquois Confederacy thing (though more from a Mikmaq perspective) myself. But I'm suggesting specific territorial claims be held off for now.
Tex has a good point - this is kind of a "Crap or get off the pot" thing for me. There's little sense in having these conversations if it isn't going to happen for a long time. And if it is going to happen soon, then we might as well wrap this one up.
Ahoj!
I like a 50m increase better than 100m.
Borys
To me, having worked on some maps, ~50m makes most sense to me, if we alter the real world map at all. Truthfully, I see it as a reasonable compromise between those who don't want to alter the OTL map, and those who want an entirely new map. It also at least makes some sense within a potential PoD scenario.
I could suspend reality enough to go for a 50 foot rise, but 50 meters we are talking about no ice caps or glaciers of any type.
Quote from: Tanthalas on February 14, 2010, 01:38:56 PM
I could suspend reality enough to go for a 50 foot rise, but 50 meters we are talking about no ice caps or glaciers of any type.
Yes. Maybe some mountain glaciers left on Greenland, maybe some winter (multiyear?) ice around the North Pole. The two Northern Passages navigable most of the year.
A small Ice Shield on Antarctica, otherwise tundra. Maybe some taiga/stunted forests in sheltered coastal areas. Most of Antarctica would be under the sea anyway ...
Borys
Remeber that melting sea ice does not raise sea level. So if we accept that all permanent ice on land melting would result in a 67m rise, than a 50m rise would mean approximately 75% of permanent ice on land will have melted. We can probably assume that more or less the same percentage of floating sea ice will have melted too, just for simplicity.
I'm no geologist, but I imagine that Borys is more or less correct. Also remember we're not talking about area here, we're really talking about volume. The antarctic ice sheet covers 14 million square km today, but is 30 million square km in volume. It might very well end up less thick, but covering proportionally more area, I suppose. Still, ~5 million sq km is a pretty big area.
I imagine that we'd still see some sea ice around Antartica seasonally, and some small amount of permanent sea ice in the Arctic, which would expand quite a bit in winter. The Northwest passage would be navigable in the winter, but there might still be need for an icebreaker her and there, as there often is the year-round navigable northern seas today.
What we get for our trouble is several interesting inland seas, the Caspian connected to the black sea, and interesting river delta system on the north coast of Siberia, and several interesting islands where contiguous coastline used to be. All of these could be useful excuses for increased overall naval production above and beyond what we'd expect in OTL 1885.
I'm actually kind of getting attached to the idea of a 'Gulf of Mississippi.'
A sea level rise seems like a good compromise, even if it means stretching our brains WAY too much to write a new history.
You know, I read something once that said that the Arctic only formed because of Panama being formed. If Panama was never formed, we wouldn't have ice in the Arctic, and we could have the rise, without the ice melting.
Bearing in mind my previous concerns about picking turf before maps/PODs, and other people's stated interests, I've been contemplating these possibilities, depending on what the world actually looked like:
~Mikmaq/Iroquois Confederacy in the Canadian Maritimes/New England area. Presumes early first contact to allow recovery from diseases. Possible rivalries with European colonies to the North and South.
~Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with reformed governance. Because sometimes one wants to avoid the whole Germany/Russian thing in Eastern Europe.
~Barbary Coast redux, in North Africa. Probably alternating between raiding neighbours and getting the crap kicked out of them by said neighbours.
~The "WTF" option, which conceptually lies somewhere between modern "bling" culture, the Draka, and Mad Max. Don't know how such a culture would originate in a pseudo-Earth (though massive sealevel-related displacement might do it), but I would be playing this culture as profoundly awful.
Well, since Rocky started it....
~Moscovite Empire- Wouldn't be as large as historical Russia, due to failure to explore past Ural's. However, it has most of the technological and economic bases, because most was based there. It would have three fleet's, in order of importance, Black, Baltic, and Northern. Disinterested in Europe west of Germany/whatever's there.
~The western Russia option- Mainly Alaska down to San Francisco. Russia claimed the area, but it rebelled. Has moderate capacity, probebly enough to build a 12,000 ton AC every year, with adaquate escorts.
~The Texas Option- Self-explanitory. Consists of Texas, as it was when it was a nation. Has a small capacity, may be larger, if it has expanded.
I already posted my Idea once but for any that missed it they can view it here (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4741.msg54968#msg54968) Honestly the where dosnt matter, excepting im trying to make whatever migration brought my nation about fairly realistic.
1.) a Native American culture with leavening of European ideas, a lot like what was developing in the Creek Nation before Jackson destroyed it, fighting without to retain their freedom and within to maintain their identity after what elders call 'too much contamination.'
2.) a truly alien culture, based on the Battletech Clans, who believe that battle is their greatest moment and defeat of their sworn enemies (fill in the blank as needed) is their destiny; they are most defined by their rigidly defined societal roles and their equally rigid morals, both derived from an overriding imperative: 'that which makes our society stronger is Good, that which hinders it is Evil.'