To be laid down 19/2:
Berlin
Esc Panzer-shiffe laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
18.643 t light; 19.495 t standard; 21.528 t normal; 23.155 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720,33 ft / 716,86 ft x 78,74 ft x 25,43 ft (normal load)
219,56 m / 218,50 m x 24,00 m x 7,75 m
Armament:
9 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (3x3 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,81kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 4,92" / 125 mm guns in single mounts, 59,59lbs / 27,03kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6.274 lbs / 2.846 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 378,94 ft / 115,50 m 10,66 ft / 3,25 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5,91" / 150 mm 378,94 ft / 115,50 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 5,91" / 150 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
2nd: 1,97" / 50 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -
- Armour deck: 2,95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 87.342 shp / 65.157 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.660 tons
Complement:
888 - 1.155
Cost:
£3,855 million / $15,420 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 784 tons, 3,6 %
Armour: 5.833 tons, 27,1 %
- Belts: 2.512 tons, 11,7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 1.087 tons, 5,0 %
- Armour Deck: 2.102 tons, 9,8 %
- Conning Tower: 131 tons, 0,6 %
Machinery: 3.254 tons, 15,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.321 tons, 38,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.886 tons, 13,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 2,1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25.370 lbs / 11.508 Kg = 37,9 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 17,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,525
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Mid (50 %): 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Stern: 16,47 ft / 5,02 m
- Average freeboard: 16,73 ft / 5,10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,0 %
Waterplane Area: 38.484 Square feet or 3.575 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 739 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,06
- Longitudinal: 0,98
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc weight
BB Fc 250 t
L/RW/L 25t
Seendes Augen 25t
Reservs 75 t
I think the belt is way to short (in height) for a ship that is so long and so fast. There's going to be unarmored hull below the belt exposed at speed.
Check out your hull strength figures - you can probably raise the freeboard some, without losing overall hull strength.
Not too keen on the secondary battery or the shallow main belt...
The ship has too much emphasis on speed and main guns.
Protection is totally overlooked in favor of guns too small to face a battleship but overkill for facing another cruiser. The speed is useful, but the vessel would not survive more than one disadvantageous position against an enemy force due to poor armor; after all, to escape, one must survive the act of running away.
I would bring the gun caliber down to a 9" sized gun, rethink the armor a bit, leave the speed as-is, and finally try to 'downsize' the ship a little to more of the 12,500-15,000 dwt range.
My thought is that it doesn't have enough speed, many cruisers on the drawing boards are 30 knot designs with some nearing 33 knots. With her fire power she is, I assume, a cruiser killer type intended to kill smaller cruisers and older armored cruisers. The problem is she doesn't have the speed to run down the latest light cruisers and doesn't have the fire power to face a BB let alone some of the Battle cruisers out there. I assume that as allies of the Dutch and Bavaria that French ships would be a key worry. In which case might want to look at the French
Demarce IIIB
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1408.msg43458#msg43458
Demarce IV
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1408.msg36371#msg36371
Both of these ships are faster than this design, so I would try to push the speed even higher.
Right now its too light to face a battle cruiser but not fast enough to run down other cruisers. Need to get faster and or tougher and or smaller. For myself I would lean towards cutting the belt down to 200mm or even 175mm, the French Demarce IV guns are only 195mm, and pushing the speed up.
It all comes down to what is the mission for this ship?
Berlin-, Esc Panzer-shiffe laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
20.669 t light; 21.585 t standard; 23.742 t normal; 25.468 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,92 ft / 718,01 ft x 78,74 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
220,04 m / 218,85 m x 24,00 m x 8,00 m
Armament:
9 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (3x3 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,81kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4,92" / 125 mm guns (4x2 guns), 59,59lbs / 27,03kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1919 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6.513 lbs / 2.954 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 406,82 ft / 124,00 m 13,94 ft / 4,25 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5,91" / 150 mm 406,82 ft / 124,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 5,91" / 150 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
2nd: 1,97" / 50 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -
- Armour deck: 2,95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 114.418 shp / 85.356 Kw = 30,50 kts
Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.884 tons
Complement:
956 - 1.243
Cost:
£4,373 million / $17,490 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 814 tons, 3,4 %
Armour: 6.706 tons, 28,2 %
- Belts: 3.233 tons, 13,6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 1.157 tons, 4,9 %
- Armour Deck: 2.176 tons, 9,2 %
- Conning Tower: 140 tons, 0,6 %
Machinery: 4.263 tons, 18,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.436 tons, 35,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.073 tons, 12,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25.654 lbs / 11.637 Kg = 38,3 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,01
Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 17,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,560
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22,15 ft / 6,75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Stern: 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Average freeboard: 18,37 ft / 5,60 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143,2 %
Waterplane Area: 39.828 Square feet or 3.700 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 710 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,01
- Longitudinal: 1,00
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
This could be cheaper. You don't need 11'' guns. That will only tempt the captain to fight in the line of battle, to which it is not suited.
QuoteThis could be cheaper. You don't need 11'' guns. That will only tempt the captain to fight in the line of battle, to which it is not suited.
IMO, use only 2T3x280 @ 30kts - belt 230
Jef
17500T-2T3x275, NUS AC laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
17 500 t light; 18 167 t standard; 20 114 t normal; 21 671 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
711.14 ft / 708.66 ft x 78.74 ft x 27.19 ft (normal load)
216.76 m / 216.00 m x 24.00 m x 8.29 m
Armament:
6 - 10.83" / 275 mm guns (2x3 guns), 634.55lbs / 287.83kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1919 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4 237 lbs / 1 922 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 12.73 ft / 3.88 m
Ends: 3.15" / 80 mm 98.43 ft / 30.00 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
118.11 ft / 36.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.57" / 40 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 25.49 ft / 7.77 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.56" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 9.06" / 230 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 94 000 shp / 70 124 Kw = 30.03 kts
Range 9 000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 504 tons
Complement:
843 - 1 097
Cost:
£3.377 million / $13.507 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 530 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 5 993 tons, 29.8 %
- Belts: 2 732 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 731 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 681 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1 705 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 144 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3 502 tons, 17.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 155 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 614 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25 936 lbs / 11 764 Kg = 40.9 x 10.8 " / 275 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.464
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (45 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.79 ft / 5.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.6 %
Waterplane Area: 36 012 Square feet or 3 346 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 653 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Give the ship the armament it needs to do its job. Assume your flag and command officers are generally competent enough not to unnecessarily expose the ship to enemy capital units.
History has proven that's not ever true. Beatty put the BC's in the line at Jutland. Hood went up againist the Bismarck. If the ship has the armerment, it will be used like that, weather it is smart or not.
Quote from: TexanCowboy on January 21, 2010, 08:20:54 PM
History has proven that's not ever true. Beatty put the BC's in the line at Jutland. Hood went up against the Bismarck. If the ship has the armaments, it will be used like that, weather it is smart or not.
What history book you been reading? Beatty NEVER put the BCs in the "Line" at Jutland.
He didn't? I thought he put the Invincible's in the line as a replacement for the QEs? ???
LOL
So that's not true?
I'm confused...
It's way more complicated than that. The 3rd BC squadron (Inflexible, Indomitable, and Invincible) were temporarily attached to the battlefleet because they were on gunnery exercises at Scapa (there was no range at Rosyth). So it is true that they were attached to Jellicoe's command at the time.
Nonetheless, at Jutland, they operated more or less independently. Hood made it a priority once it was suspected that the Germans were out to try to rendevous with Beatty and the rest of the BCs, a task at which he ultimately succeeded.
Unfortunately for Invicincible, the RN's BCs met Hipper's. This was very much what they had been designed to do, but the newer generations of German BCs were superior to I's, and ultimately Invincible (among others) were lost.
This does bring to mind just what a BC was good for. Is it just for hunting old-style ACs? Maybe, but once all obsolete ACs are withdrawn from front line service, then what? I think all involved realized that BCs would meet BCs in large fleet actions. It was unfortunate for Invincible that she was both not generally as well protected as her foes and had *much* worse flash protection.
Were tactics at fault though? This is a question that has been argued for going on 90+ years now.
LOL... the 'Battle of Battlecruiser Bottoms' is about to be fought again.
The one thing to keep in mind about in Navalism since we have no treaty system people are free big cruisers to whatever size and armament they wish. So it will be hard for us to judge how well any type will do as there are all sorts of possible enemies for them to run into.
As I am building a 280 mm Gun for a cruiser type vessel I off course try to sim a vessel that can carry said gun.I personally attempt to disregard OTL,since I am
1:Playing a game,this is the main reason for my lack of interest in different discussion regarding OTL ships,e.g:the discussion on Dd speed /sea keeping.
2:I will rather have some fun/action and thus I build according to my Tech capability ,and off course "The Bigger The Better" :D :D
And from MY game point of wiev,I have about 15 light cruisers ,+35 dd but only 2 Fleet/Ac cruisers and also has to renew my Bbs,and also have a lot of Bp to suck up.
I agree...
"We like fun & games"
I love Panzerschiffs concept so I could built a fleet with all kind of T3 turrets
2T3x40 - patrol boat
2T3x90 - TB
2T3x120 - DD
2T3x152 - CL
2T3x275 - AC
2T3x340 - BC
2T3x400 - BB
:D :D :D
If this ship is a 'super-cruiser' cut armor down a bit. I'd keep the three turrets though.
I'd suggest keep 9 x 280mm and the TB, go AoN - MB and Deck as is, lose the UB (limited value vs. 9"+ guns) - increase speed to 31+ knots and increase Secs to say 14 x 130mm or so
- gives excellent fast strike ship, fleet heavy scout or mobile support to light forces - and it would be a Wheeler Smasher ;D
Quote from: mentat on January 28, 2010, 06:22:14 AM
I'd suggest keep 9 x 280mm and the TB, go AoN - MB and Deck as is, lose the UB (limited value vs. 9"+ guns) - increase speed to 31+ knots and increase Secs to say 14 x 130mm or so
- gives excellent fast strike ship, fleet heavy scout or mobile support to light forces - and it would be a Wheeler Smasher ;D
The Wheeler Smasher is already under construction (X2) 6X12" with suficiant armor to resist whealers guns and enough speed to run away from anything it cant outfight atm
But..but...do you have a Occiantanie smasher yet? :D
Quote from: TexanCowboy on January 31, 2010, 12:46:26 PM
But..but...do you have a Occiantanie smasher yet? :D
I actualy have 4 ships that would compare favorably with her. and I have the Asfaloths to match up with any of the new BCs being built anywhere.
But do you have a General Kasser smasher? (10x16'' guns, 26 knots, 6'' deck...)
Quote from: TexanCowboy on January 31, 2010, 02:49:03 PM
But do you have a General Kasser smasher? (10x16'' guns, 26 knots, 6'' deck...)
if I so chose I could build one, however I dont view the 6" deck as somthing we should be using at this time, also I wont be droping below 28 knots for my new BBs.
So you have 2 different types of AC?
What is role of the latest 2 vs. your 'Wheeler Smashers'?
i still think they need more Speed + Secs :)