Fisher follies... If anything, I think I overarmored these.
Revenge class, New Switzerland Cruiser laid down 1918
Displacement:
17,009 t light; 17,790 t standard; 20,641 t normal; 22,921 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
710.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 27.50 ft (normal load)
216.41 m / 216.41 m x 22.56 m x 8.38 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (2x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (12x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,400 lbs / 2,903 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 123,462 shp / 92,103 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,200nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,131 tons
Complement:
860 - 1,119
Cost:
£3.782 million / $15.126 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 800 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 3,522 tons, 17.1 %
- Belts: 1,800 tons, 8.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 637 tons, 3.1 %
- Armour Deck: 971 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 113 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,454 tons, 21.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,883 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,632 tons, 17.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,976 lbs / 9,515 Kg = 15.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (40 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.40 ft / 6.22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.1 %
Waterplane Area: 35,006 Square feet or 3,252 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 698 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Fooling around with the design. I can get up to 33 knots easily, by dropping to a 3in belt. These will be started but not finished as planned. They will end up as aircraft carriers.
Revenge class, New Switzerland Cruiser laid down 1918
Displacement:
15,796 t light; 16,540 t standard; 18,768 t normal; 20,551 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
710.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 25.70 ft (normal load)
216.41 m / 216.41 m x 21.95 m x 7.83 m
Armament:
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (2x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (12x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,400 lbs / 2,903 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 119 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 116,085 shp / 86,600 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,011 tons
Complement:
801 - 1,042
Cost:
£3.622 million / $14.489 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 800 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 2,894 tons, 15.4 %
- Belts: 1,228 tons, 6.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 615 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 945 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Tower: 107 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 4,188 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,615 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,972 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,970 lbs / 8,151 Kg = 13.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (40 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.40 ft / 6.22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.0 %
Waterplane Area: 34,060 Square feet or 3,164 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 696 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Classic New Swiss design.
Since, um, everything I value in a warship is kinda antonymic to that, there's really not much else I can say.
Quote from: Valles on November 19, 2009, 12:36:27 AM
Classic New Swiss design.
Since, um, everything I value in a warship is kinda antonymic to that, there's really not much else I can say.
Yup - armour -> guns -> speed ....
Borys
are the twin centerline 4" supposed to be superimposed?
Given the fleet concepts, the only part that concerns me is the 4x14. Below the number expected to be useful for FC, too large for rapid fire at close ranges.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 19, 2009, 01:23:47 AM
are the twin centerline 4" supposed to be superimposed?
Given the fleet concepts, the only part that concerns me is the 4x14. Below the number expected to be useful for FC, too large for rapid fire at close ranges.
I tend to agree with KK, wouldnt 6X12" be more fiting for them? enough for FC to work and they would fire a damn sight faster (actualy with 6X12" they would make decent raiders)
i'd make it 8 x 11" - more effective FC - and plenty big enough shell size vs. Cruisers - given the paper thin armour - it can't go up against anything with 9" or better anyway ...
- and the Secs are too small - deliberately bizarre ship
btw - what are they for ... would make a nice Royal Yacht for Fleet Review time ;D
If there is anything that is fixed in this design, it's the main armament. I deliberately want a poor main armament so that there is a reason to not finish these ships as planned or rebuild them and have them end up as carriers. Also the main armament will be reused for another ship I have planned later on.
Ah Brilliant for planning so should I start laying down my Lexington Class Battle Cruisers now with 3" armored sides and start building them very very slowly :o :-[
Or I could just lay them down as carriers, save money and get a much more efficient design...
Somebody has to build flawed ships.
Yes, but a flawed Battle Cruiser with 30 Knot speed and extremely light armor is well the perfect design for remove turrets and Deck Armor and Barbetts cut a few holes in the side armor. Move the Bridge to the side and Presto you have Lexington and Hornet and if you think those were flawed ships :)
I would say the design of your new ships is nothing short of Brilliant. Must steal some of the NS Psycics who are viewing the future. :D
Charles
Steal some British ones, they did it in 1915... ;)
Quote from: Desertfox on November 19, 2009, 08:23:18 AM
Or I could just lay them down as carriers, save money and get a much more efficient design...
Somebody has to build flawed ships.
I'm rolling out coal-fired cruisers with the majority of their guns in casements, and a secondary battery on top of that...doesn't that count? I mean it will work well enough, but it's hardly without flaws...
But you are in the minority, everyone else is rolling out well balanced fast battleships, and max destroyers.
Cross Mirage is not, by any standard of her day, 'fast'. Nor will she ever be.
Though I'll admit she's planned to get new legs periodically as the standards change.
Quote from: Desertfox on November 19, 2009, 09:07:51 AM
But you are in the minority, everyone else is rolling out well balanced fast battleships, and max destroyers.
as I understand it there are 3 classes of Fast BB under construction curently in the Nverse
Hood is well Hood
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=2130
Asfaloth is Mackensen
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=1954
Im not exactly who the french ship would analog to but Proly USS Lexington.
So realy there are no more "Fast BBs" building than was historicly the case (fewer actualy as Hood is only intended to be a singleton, and the french are only building 2 of theirs)
You forgot the Oceans, De Ruyters, and Colussus, oh and the new Akagi.
Akagi is not a Fast BB. As the designation indicates, it is classified as a Cruiser Class 1. :D
The fast BB version I have (the original design) is slightly different and a bit slower.
QuoteIf there is anything that is fixed in this design, it's the main armament. I deliberately want a poor main armament so that there is a reason to not finish these ships as planned or rebuild them and have them end up as carriers. Also the main armament will be reused for another ship I have planned later on.
What a load.... >:( ::)
The out-of-character rationale for building flawed ships is fine - but why are the Swiss seeking to build Fisher follies?
Yes - Fisher's Real Folly was the Baltic 2nd front Amphibious Invasion Plan - to help the Russian's into Germany by the back door. in the context of the plan - 'Outrageous', 'Uproarious' and 'Spurious' - made perfect 'sense' :D
- so what Grand Scheme does NS have for this design - long range Commerce raiding? - long range Coastal attack? ....
Both... attacks on China (both) or operations in the Dutch East Indies require such ships, and they make excellent raiders. What do you do when a 33knots ship, packing 14" guns gets lose in your shipping lanes?
Quote from: Desertfox on November 20, 2009, 12:23:20 AM
Both... attacks on China (both) or operations in the Dutch East Indies require such ships, and they make excellent raiders. What do you do when a 33knots ship, packing 14" guns gets lose in your shipping lanes?
When it's only got 4 main guns and 5" armor? Send the BCs out in force and a few CLs to scout. 14" guns or not, she runs into anything w/ real armor all she can do is run away. Even the 11" guns on Moltke would shred her. You can run, and 14" will hurt especially w/ only 8" armor on the M's, but if you're running away...who's sinking the shipping?
And thereby she has done her job, drawing away the Moltke from more important jobs. Plus she could just sit out of Motlke's range and blast away untill something hits. You need at least a 30 knot ship with 8x12" guns, to keep her away. Can you afford to build such a ship?
Ahoj!
A decent semi-dreadnaught with 1908/12 FC is enough to keep those ships away. Good luck with hitting anything at long range with those four guns.
Borys
Quote from: Desertfox on November 20, 2009, 12:32:25 AM
And thereby she has done her job, drawing away the Moltke from more important jobs. Plus she could just sit out of Motlke's range and blast away untill something hits. You need at least a 30 knot ship with 8x12" guns, to keep her away. Can you afford to build such a ship?
Like this?
SMS Defflinger, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1916
Displacement:
25,350 t light; 26,339 t standard; 28,234 t normal; 29,750 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
662.71 ft / 656.17 ft x 92.68 ft x 29.53 ft (normal load)
202.00 m / 200.00 m x 28.25 m x 9.00 m
Armament:
8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 881.85lbs / 400.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 68.34lbs / 31.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
2 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,236 lbs / 3,736 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
5 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 470.80 ft / 143.50 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 185.37 ft / 56.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 470.80 ft / 143.50 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.77" / 45 mm 470.80 ft / 143.50 m 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
4th: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
5th: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 128,003 shp / 95,490 Kw = 30.05 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,412 tons
Complement:
1,088 - 1,415
Cost:
£3.933 million / $15.732 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,010 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 9,251 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 3,731 tons, 13.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 911 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 2,069 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,319 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 220 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 4,769 tons, 16.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,870 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,884 tons, 10.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,202 lbs / 15,060 Kg = 38.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.10 ft / -1.25 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 27.89 ft / 8.50 m (26.25 ft / 8.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (61 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m (17.22 ft / 5.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Stern: 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Average freeboard: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.1 %
Waterplane Area: 42,455 Square feet or 3,944 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 777 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
250t Fire Control Installation
25t Long Range Markoni Installation
25t 5 500mm Torpedoes per tube
25t Sehendes Auge Installation
125t Reserve Weight
most effective and cost effective raider (what a great topic!) - would look like 8 k tons - high speed, very long range, good habitability - 6/8 x 6" guns and lots of Torps - esp 18" to despatch Merchant ships
17k tons + 14" guns is massive overkill !!
If you are worried about carrying small torpedoes just to quickly dispatch a merchant ship, why not just carry limpet mine type devices with timed fuses on them. Take a boat over, attach mine at waterline, blow big hole in ship.
It would take a little more time (maybe, if the crew is well drilled and boat and mines are at the ready, probably not that much more time). But the little mines would be a lot lighter and cheaper and take up less space than even the 18" torpedoes.
For the few times you just have to fire a torpedo, say in heavy weather or when you are in a real hurry, one of your compliment of regular torpedoes should do the job.
Yup, that's what I'm talking about. Note that she costs 50% more...
Raiding is what the Olympias are for. But if there is the potential that these ships could be raiding, the enemy has to spend that much more on protecting its merchants. Ships that could be used elsewhere are now tied down, escorting merchants.
This all sounds very promising - so why will the Swiss change their minds and not complete them?
I haven't decided yet. I might finished them as designed, then rebuild them. But even among the Swiss, these will be controversial ships, as their armament is not up to Swiss specs. Note that these ships could do their job without being completed, much like how the Alaskas ended up being built, designed to counter a phantom Japanese threat. I think it'll depend on when the ships are layed down, the earlier, the greater chance they will be completed as designed.
By and large, I think you're offering too many possibilities for most of us to bother "reacting" to any specific one.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 20, 2009, 08:52:44 AM
By and large, I think you're offering too many possibilities for most of us to bother "reacting" to any specific one.
I agree. You would have been better off to just post the design without mentioning any of the carrier hogwash. Then just did whatever later.