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Main Archive => Navalism 3 Armed Forces => Armed Forces => New Ship Designs => Topic started by: Borys on October 01, 2009, 02:27:59 AM

Title: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2009, 02:27:59 AM
Design 1
This is similar to the OTL Russian ideas for 16" battlerships for the Black Sea.

The MG turrets are spaced out, while the secondaries in enclosed twin mounts are below the main deck. Springshare evidently has a problem with 6xmount&hoist and 12 guns below the main deck :)s


Habsburgs Schlachtiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   29 183 t light; 30 816 t standard; 31 958 t normal; 32 872 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   700,00 ft / 700,00 ft x 100,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   213,36 m / 213,36 m x 30,48 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      12 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1 400,00lbs / 635,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 17 704 lbs / 8 031 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   430,00 ft / 131,06 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   270,00 ft / 82,30 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   430,00 ft / 131,06 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   430,00 ft / 131,06 m   43,00 ft / 13,11 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   5,00" / 127 mm         -         2,00" / 51 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 65 710 shp / 49 019 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 056 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 194 - 1 553

Cost:
   £7,130 million / $28,519 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 957 tons, 6,1%
   Armour: 11 875 tons, 37,2%
      - Belts: 5 593 tons, 17,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 026 tons, 3,2%
      - Armament: 2 012 tons, 6,3%
      - Armour Deck: 2 940 tons, 9,2%
      - Conning Tower: 304 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 2 505 tons, 7,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12 396 tons, 38,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 775 tons, 8,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37 634 lbs / 17 070 Kg = 30,6 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 6,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,551
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Mid (25%):      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,48 ft / 5,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124,8%
   Waterplane Area: 48 898 Square feet or 4 543 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 935 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,09
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2009, 02:30:08 AM
Design 2
Some KKK weirdness here - the front turrets are back to back, while the aft ones are one behind the other. All are on deck level. 

Habsburger Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   32 076 t light; 33 950 t standard; 35 163 t normal; 36 134 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   700,00 ft / 700,00 ft x 107,00 ft x 29,50 ft (normal load)
   213,36 m / 213,36 m x 32,61 m  x 8,99 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 20 904 lbs / 9 482 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 99% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   43,00 ft / 13,11 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   5,00" / 127 mm         -         2,00" / 51 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70 413 shp / 52 528 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 183 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 283 - 1 669

Cost:
   £8,224 million / $32,896 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 358 tons, 6,7%
   Armour: 12 862 tons, 36,6%
      - Belts: 5 784 tons, 16,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 074 tons, 3,1%
      - Armament: 2 517 tons, 7,2%
      - Armour Deck: 3 164 tons, 9,0%
      - Conning Tower: 324 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2 684 tons, 7,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13 721 tons, 39,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 087 tons, 8,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39 393 lbs / 17 868 Kg = 17,5 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 6,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 6,6 ft / 2,0 m
   Roll period: 17,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,54 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Mid (25%):      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,48 ft / 5,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,0%
   Waterplane Area: 52 616 Square feet or 4 888 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 984 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,10
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: mentat on October 01, 2009, 03:55:23 AM

I like the Big Bertha version with 420mm  ;D

But query on so much weight on Upper and End Belts - is there a particular reason?
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2009, 04:11:29 AM
Ahoj!
The KKK is expecting to fight in ranges of 10-15 thousand yards.
Hence the desire to prevent all those non MG hits from causing mischief.

Also, I just hate the idea of a battleship running around with unarmoured bits ... 
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: mentat on October 01, 2009, 04:22:28 AM

i see - but can't help thinking at such ranges - really MB should be 14-15" to keep out the big stuff

what about 15" (13" + 2" vs Armour Cap) MB and 4" UB - vs Cruiser guns - isn't that more effective?
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2009, 04:32:51 AM
Ahoj!
Good suggestions.

Maybe I should think about 14" MB.

I think that it is too early for de-capping.

The Torpedo Bulkhead reaches the Main Deck (or it should - I will fine tune the design later).

Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: TexanCowboy on October 01, 2009, 03:35:07 PM
What's with the 5.3'' guns? Thats a odd caliber.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2009, 10:36:14 PM
Ahoj!
The calibre stems from my desire to have a seventyfive pounder.
The fourandahalf inch fifty pounder is for smaller vessels, while the larger weapon is for rapid fire against torpedo bearing vessels. A six incher firing 100 pound shells is IMO overkill and has too low a ROF.
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 02, 2009, 12:06:14 PM
Dibs on this drawing:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/2000_03/Draw/95.jpg
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: The Rock Doctor on October 02, 2009, 12:11:28 PM
I like the style of the turrets.  I find it's one of the hardest parts to draw when I tinker.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 02, 2009, 12:13:41 PM
Ahoj!
Found the page which inspired my latest battleship designs:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/irn16bb.htm


The 4x2x16,5" ship would look like the line drawing below, but with twins:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/images/irnultimate.jpg

The 4x4x16" design might catch France's fancy ...
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 02, 2009, 12:23:35 PM
So ...

SMS Viribus Unitis, Habsburger Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   38 137 t light; 40 294 t standard; 42 350 t normal; 43 995 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   760,00 ft / 760,00 ft x 109,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   231,65 m / 231,65 m x 33,22 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 42cm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21 208 lbs / 9 620 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   460,00 ft / 140,21 m   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   300,00 ft / 91,44 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   460,00 ft / 140,21 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 93% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   460,00 ft / 140,21 m   47,00 ft / 14,33 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 105 681 shp / 78 838 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 700 tons

Complement:
   1 475 - 1 918

Cost:
   £9,215 million / $36,860 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 396 tons, 5,7%
   Armour: 15 612 tons, 36,9%
      - Belts: 6 967 tons, 16,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 600 tons, 3,8%
      - Armament: 3 185 tons, 7,5%
      - Armour Deck: 3 416 tons, 8,1%
      - Conning Tower: 445 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 3 937 tons, 9,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15 741 tons, 37,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 213 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51 846 lbs / 23 517 Kg = 23,1 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 8,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 6,8 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,617
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,97 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27,57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,32 ft / 9,24 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,30 ft / 5,88 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,14 ft / 5,83 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143,1%
   Waterplane Area: 61 555 Square feet or 5 719 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 197 lbs/sq ft or 961 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,00
      - Longitudinal: 1,00
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: The Rock Doctor on October 02, 2009, 12:31:45 PM
Powerful and fast.  

The stem is twelve feet higher than the main deck, though - might hinder shooting ahead.

I'm a bit surprised to see you sticking with casemates - I thought you were going to the mount and hoist set up.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on October 02, 2009, 12:40:24 PM
Ahoj!
Yes, I was indeed originally thinking of an arrangment like this:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/images/irn16in1917.jpg

But:
a - the drawing has only three turrets :)
b - would I be able to fit three or four turrets per side having four MG turrets on the main deck?

I can do it, although my "gun platform" rating plumetts to "69" :)

Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Tanthalas on October 02, 2009, 12:42:54 PM
I think it would fit, You might have to get creative with the super Structure but I think it would fit.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: The Rock Doctor on October 02, 2009, 12:51:06 PM
Right, but that design has eight casemates in addition to the three turrets on each side.  You'd still get your total guns.

You could probably sim that particular secondary turret arrangement by putting all the secondaries aft of the mid-break, lowering the mid to quarterdeck section's freeboard, and simming the turrets as "eight guns at deck level, four guns raised"
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 03, 2009, 12:43:08 AM
Ahoj!
I'm getting closer to the Ultimate design - a nice thirtyeight and a half thousand tonner:
Szent Istvan, Habsburgs Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   38 499 t light; 40 304 t standard; 42 629 t normal; 44 489 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720,49 ft / 720,00 ft x 118,11 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   219,61 m / 219,46 m x 36,00 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 42cm mm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      16 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21 216 lbs / 9 623 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   405,00 ft / 123,44 m   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   315,00 ft / 96,01 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   10,0" / 254 mm   405,00 ft / 123,44 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 87% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   405,00 ft / 123,44 m   46,00 ft / 14,02 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      3,15" / 80 mm

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 94 616 shp / 70 583 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 525nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 185 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 483 - 1 928

Cost:
   £9,164 million / $36,654 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 410 tons, 5,7%
   Armour: 15 943 tons, 37,4%
      - Belts: 6 879 tons, 16,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 034 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 2 959 tons, 6,9%
      - Armour Deck: 4 624 tons, 10,8%
      - Conning Tower: 447 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 3 607 tons, 8,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 16 039 tons, 37,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 130 tons, 9,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55 042 lbs / 24 966 Kg = 24,5 x 16,5 " / 42cm shells or 9,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 7,7 ft / 2,3 m
   Roll period: 17,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,605
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,00 ft / 8,53 m
      - Forecastle (16%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (13%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,64 ft / 5,68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144,5%
   Waterplane Area: 62 487 Square feet or 5 805 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 995 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,12
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Jefgte on November 03, 2009, 02:12:18 AM
Did you place the turret like that?

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/images/irnultimate.jpg

Jef ?
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 03, 2009, 02:24:10 AM
Ahoj!
I'm undecided between the image you linked, and the Dante Aligheri layout (but flush-deck).
Using the Italian layout, Ibelive that I should have place for two twin 6" mounts on the sides between Anton and Berta, with the last pair going on the sides between Caesar and Dora. What do you think?
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Jefgte on November 03, 2009, 02:43:10 AM
An nearly equal distribution of the barbettes on 220m for the hull
Revell or Atahualpa disposition (I don't like Dante Aligheri look).
Choose the position of the guns...fore or aft


Jef  ;)
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: mentat on November 03, 2009, 05:35:43 AM

Shaping up nicely - should be strong Contender vs. other Big stuff in the pipeline

How about a single turret forward and a 3 Turret pyramid aft (1 Superfiring)  - still distinctive - and good fire arcs forward as well as rear  :)
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Jefgte on November 03, 2009, 06:13:46 AM
Superfiring turrets mean that the BB 'll be over 40,000t


Jef
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 03, 2009, 11:28:08 AM
With pyramid aft:
Szent Istvan, Habsburgs Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   38 751 t light; 40 575 t standard; 42 911 t normal; 44 780 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720,52 ft / 720,00 ft x 118,11 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   219,61 m / 219,46 m x 36,00 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      6 - 16,50" / 419 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      2 - 16,50" / 419 mm guns (1x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      16 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21 216 lbs / 9 623 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   9,50 ft / 2,90 m
     Main Belt covers 85% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   46,00 ft / 14,02 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   3rd:   4,00" / 102 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      3,15" / 80 mm
   4th:   0,75" / 19 mm   0,40" / 10 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,20" / 81 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 95 164 shp / 70 993 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 525nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 205 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 489 - 1 937

Cost:
   £9,191 million / $36,765 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 410 tons, 5,6%
   Armour: 14 907 tons, 34,7%
      - Belts: 6 575 tons, 15,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 021 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 3 148 tons, 7,3%
      - Armour Deck: 3 713 tons, 8,7%
      - Conning Tower: 449 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 3 628 tons, 8,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17 306 tons, 40,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 160 tons, 9,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55 861 lbs / 25 338 Kg = 24,9 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 9,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 7,7 ft / 2,3 m
   Roll period: 17,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,609
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,52 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (16%):   18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Quarterdeck (13%):   18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Stern:      18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,21 ft / 5,85 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148,4%
   Waterplane Area: 62 721 Square feet or 5 827 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 218 lbs/sq ft or 1 065 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,25
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 04, 2009, 01:45:42 AM
Ahoj!
I'm on a roll :)
The Dante Alighieri:

Petoefi Sandor, Habsburgs Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   36 938 t light; 38 709 t standard; 40 970 t normal; 42 779 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720,54 ft / 720,00 ft x 118,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   219,62 m / 219,46 m x 35,97 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 419 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward
      4 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all aft
      16 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21 216 lbs / 9 623 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   415,00 ft / 126,49 m   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   305,00 ft / 92,96 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   14,0" / 356 mm   415,00 ft / 126,49 m   6,00 ft / 1,83 m
     Main Belt covers 89% of normal length

This means that along a 405ft stretch the whole side of the ship is covered with 14" plate. 

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   415,00 ft / 126,49 m   45,00 ft / 13,72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      3,15" / 80 mm
   3rd:   4,00" / 102 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      3,15" / 80 mm
   4th:   0,75" / 19 mm   0,40" / 10 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,20" / 81 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 91 401 shp / 68 185 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 525nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 069 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 439 - 1 871

Cost:
   £8,994 million / $35,975 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 410 tons, 5,9%
   Armour: 14 834 tons, 36,2%
      - Belts: 6 852 tons, 16,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 036 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 2 892 tons, 7,1%
      - Armour Deck: 3 617 tons, 8,8%
      - Conning Tower: 435 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 3 485 tons, 8,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15 709 tons, 38,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 033 tons, 9,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51 015 lbs / 23 140 Kg = 22,7 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 9,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,582
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (16%):   23,00 ft / 7,01 m
      - Mid (36%):      23,00 ft / 7,01 m (15,00 ft / 4,57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (13%):   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Stern:      15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,39 ft / 5,61 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139,5%
   Waterplane Area: 61 100 Square feet or 5 676 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 996 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,11
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: mentat on November 04, 2009, 03:45:50 AM

interesting choice on layouts - are you close to decision?

also - with pyramid at rear - could rear engine room be between Q and (X)Y

I still think the 1 superfiring turret helps on firing arcs - but there is wt penalty
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Jefgte on November 04, 2009, 04:45:15 AM
Dante Alighieri is better for turrets disposition than Szent Istvan with pyramid aft.


Jef  ;)
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 04, 2009, 05:13:28 AM
Ahoj!
I'm finally leaning towards the Italian layout of A--P-Q--X, with raised  front part of ship ... excepting the additional pair of enclosed secondary mounts (and scale) it's almost true to the original line drawing :)

I'm also wavering between those 12 six-inchers, and 20 seventyfive pounders - a cluster of 4 twin mounts aft (two per side), and six around the bridge.

Quotealso - with pyramid at rear - could rear engine room be between Q and (X)Y

I don't think so - I envision it as a neat pile-up aft of the mainmast - think HMS Agincourt with a single turret fore, and none amidships.
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: mentat on November 05, 2009, 03:53:31 AM


On the Secondaries - I think 20 x 5.3" is better vs TBDs - which are the key threat to deal with

  Jefgte - I really don't see why 2 midships turrets is better turret disposition - certainly in terms of fire arcs - given some gap between rear superstructure and Q - then forward facing Q and superfiring (X) - improve forward arcs and (X) improves rear arcs  - not so ??


given the ship is 26 knots (28+ may become norm in future) - tactical flexibility is key - otherwise weak forward + rear arcs can be exploited by the opposition


turret concentration also allows thicker armour for mags vs machinery  if required

  it's good to have different views  ;)

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Jefgte on November 05, 2009, 04:07:50 AM
Quote...I really don't see why 2 midships turrets is better turret disposition ...

The mechanical stresses are more evenly distributed over the entire length of the hull.

That is also to have other disposition than A-B-X-Y ---  B-X superfiring, too classical.


Jef


Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 05, 2009, 10:42:16 AM
Ahoj!
Final version, I think ... the Dante Alighieri, with 20x135mm guns. I also thickened the AD a bit.

Petoefi Sandor, Habsburgs Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   37 119 t light; 38 912 t standard; 41 181 t normal; 42 996 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720,54 ft / 720,00 ft x 118,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   219,62 m / 219,46 m x 35,97 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 420cm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns (6x2 guns), 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward
      8 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns (4x2 guns), 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all aft
      16 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21 516 lbs / 9 759 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   415,00 ft / 126,49 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   305,00 ft / 92,96 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   14,0" / 356 mm   415,00 ft / 126,49 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 89% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   415,00 ft / 126,49 m   45,00 ft / 13,72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   4th:   0,75" / 19 mm   0,40" / 10 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,75" / 95 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 91 810 shp / 68 491 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 525nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 084 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 445 - 1 879

Cost:
   £9,062 million / $36,247 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 434 tons, 5,9%
   Armour: 14 946 tons, 36,3%
      - Belts: 6 328 tons, 15,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 036 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 2 894 tons, 7,0%
      - Armour Deck: 4 251 tons, 10,3%
      - Conning Tower: 437 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 3 500 tons, 8,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15 739 tons, 38,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 062 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     50 930 lbs / 23 102 Kg = 22,7 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 9,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 7,7 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,585
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (16%):   23,00 ft / 7,01 m
      - Mid (36%):      23,00 ft / 7,01 m (15,00 ft / 4,57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (13%):   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Stern:      15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,39 ft / 5,61 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139,4%
   Waterplane Area: 61 272 Square feet or 5 692 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 995 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,11
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 11:24:27 AM
The finished article (drawing by Sachmle - I grovel before Thee!)
BTW - Sachmle did a slightly better SS of the ship, but I have to live with my mistakes ...
The MB was lengthened so it fits the picture.

(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/borys68/SMSPetoefiSandor.png)


Petoefi Sandor, Habsburgs Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   37 451 t light; 39 251 t standard; 41 533 t normal; 43 359 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720,54 ft / 720,00 ft x 118,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   219,62 m / 219,46 m x 35,97 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 419 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns (6x2 guns), 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward
      8 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns (4x2 guns), 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all aft
      16 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21 516 lbs / 9 759 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   465,00 ft / 141,73 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   255,00 ft / 77,72 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   14,0" / 356 mm   465,00 ft / 141,73 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 99% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   465,00 ft / 141,73 m   45,00 ft / 13,72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,30" / 33 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   4th:   0,75" / 19 mm   0,40" / 10 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 92 493 shp / 69 000 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 525nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 109 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 454 - 1 891

Cost:
   £9,098 million / $36,391 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 434 tons, 5,9%
   Armour: 15 241 tons, 36,7%
      - Belts: 6 760 tons, 16,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 161 tons, 2,8%
      - Armament: 2 894 tons, 7,0%
      - Armour Deck: 3 986 tons, 9,6%
      - Conning Tower: 439 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 3 526 tons, 8,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15 749 tons, 37,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 083 tons, 9,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51 578 lbs / 23 395 Kg = 23,0 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 9,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 7,7 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (16%):   23,00 ft / 7,01 m
      - Mid (36%):      23,00 ft / 7,01 m (15,00 ft / 4,57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (13%):   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Stern:      15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,39 ft / 5,61 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139,1%
   Waterplane Area: 61 560 Square feet or 5 719 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 992 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,11
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 12:46:07 PM
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/borys68/SMSPetoefiSandor_colour.png)

Piccie by Sachmle
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Sachmle on November 08, 2009, 01:02:02 PM
Color's by Borys (PINK?)

Parts to make said piccie by Wes Wilson and Brock Paine @ WesWorld.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 01:11:43 PM
Ahoj!
Montecuccoli Pink is the OTL colour scheme ...
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: The Rock Doctor on November 08, 2009, 05:03:17 PM
It's a salmon.  More specifically, a death salmon.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Guinness on November 08, 2009, 07:13:25 PM
Gah! My eyes!

Seriously, I'd rather look at that thread of ugly French battleships.

Borys: I have a friend and coworker who is both Swedish and color blind. He makes better color decisions.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Sachmle on November 08, 2009, 07:15:21 PM
Quote from: Guinness on November 08, 2009, 07:13:25 PM
Seriously, I'd rather look at that thread of ugly French battleships.

Why is it EVERY time I almost forget Depuy de Lome someone brings up that thread?
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Kaiser Kirk on November 08, 2009, 10:12:36 PM
Why is the upper belt 14"??
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 10:22:44 PM
Ahoj!
I had enough tonnage to armour the sides to an even thickness.
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Sachmle on November 08, 2009, 10:23:49 PM
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 08, 2009, 10:12:36 PM
Why is the upper belt 14"??


I wondered the same, but then I remembered it was Borys "Iron Fortress" Zakrzewski. My best guess was that IC he couldn't mill a 21' tall 14" thick plate.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Kaiser Kirk on November 08, 2009, 10:26:18 PM
Quote from: Borys on November 08, 2009, 10:22:44 PM
Ahoj!
I had enough tonnage to armour the sides to an even thickness.
Borys

Didn't occur to you to expend it in wrought iron figureheads, flowers, and cute little animals like a Disney scene?  Instead you went with more armor? Tsk tsk.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
LOL!
You guys are pushing me towards the Hello Kitty! solution, to release my  "inner Princess":
(http://www.dragonrealm.com/exlibrismortis/HelloKittyDreadnought_600we.jpg)
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Sachmle on November 08, 2009, 10:39:48 PM
ROTFLMAO!!! Out fu**ing standing Borys!! Bravo!
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Kaiser Kirk on November 08, 2009, 10:42:32 PM
Now THAT's a figurehead !
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 10:56:03 PM
:D
I hope Tanthalas will survive the shock when it dawns on him WHAT this is :)
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Sachmle on November 08, 2009, 11:01:08 PM
Quote from: Borys on November 08, 2009, 10:56:03 PM
:D
I hope Tanthalas will survive the shock when it dawns on him WHAT this is :)
Borys

It's some kind of Warhammer mech I think.
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 11:08:54 PM
Yes, it is brutal warmachine called a "dreadnaught" - equally murderous at range (see right arm) as in melee (the pink nail varnish covered attachment is in fact the "Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon").
In action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-E1RcRvny8
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Tanthalas on November 08, 2009, 11:16:24 PM
Quote from: Borys on November 08, 2009, 10:56:03 PM
:D
I hope Tanthalas will survive the shock when it dawns on him WHAT this is :)
Borys

I realised as soon as I saw it... (the twin LasCannon and PowerFist are a dead give away) But I do wonder how many Points did the Hello Kitty hed and dress cost, and did they provide any Bonuses?  If not, WHY in the Emperors name would anyone do that to a perfectly good Dreadnaught... (ok so atleast it wasnt a twin assult cannon or a Multi Melta Dread)
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 08, 2009, 11:44:46 PM
Quote from: Tanthalas on November 08, 2009, 11:16:24 PM
But I do wonder how many Points did the Hello Kitty hed and dress cost, and did they provide any Bonuses?  If not, WHY in the Emperors name would anyone do that to a perfectly good Dreadnaught...
Because it looks CUTE and PRETTY!
:)
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Tanthalas on November 09, 2009, 12:01:11 AM
Quote from: Borys on November 08, 2009, 11:44:46 PM
Quote from: Tanthalas on November 08, 2009, 11:16:24 PM
But I do wonder how many Points did the Hello Kitty hed and dress cost, and did they provide any Bonuses?  If not, WHY in the Emperors name would anyone do that to a perfectly good Dreadnaught...
Because it looks CUTE and PRETTY!
:)
Borys

Dreadnaughts are NOT CUTE OR PRETTY... They are Ferocious and Deadly...
Like this one
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/IMG_0954.jpg)
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 09, 2009, 12:06:25 AM
Lacks some glitter ...
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Tanthalas on November 09, 2009, 12:14:46 AM
Quote from: Borys on November 09, 2009, 12:06:25 AM
Lacks some glitter ...
Borys

but but but it has a bleading Ork Scull...
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on November 09, 2009, 12:50:00 AM
Ahoj!
Back to ships - I just discovered that Sachmle accounted for the End Belts being narrower!

I will build four such beauties ... as I have only two Type 3 slips, two in 1920 and two in 1922.
If necessary (i.e. I won't have 16,5 cannon by that date), the first pair will ship sixteen thirteen inch guns.
Borys
Title: Re: 1920 - KKK tentative designs
Post by: Borys on May 28, 2010, 02:27:38 PM
Ahoj!
See previous page for SS file and illustrations. The first pair, with 4x4x13", were laid down under the 1/1920 budget.
Borys