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The expensive one.

QuoteReputation, French Battlecruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   30.908 t light; 32.470 t standard; 34.952 t normal; 36.938 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   823,49 ft / 820,21 ft x 104,99 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
   251,00 m / 250,00 m x 32,00 m  x 8,60 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.461 lbs / 5.652 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   17,25 ft / 5,26 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,25" / 32 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   24,92 ft / 7,60 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      11,0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   11,0" / 279 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 129.992 shp / 96.974 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 6.900nm at 15,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.467 tons

Complement:
   1.277 - 1.661

Cost:
   £4,765 million / $19,062 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.372 tons, 3,9%
   Armour: 9.234 tons, 26,4%
      - Belts: 4.147 tons, 11,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 586 tons, 1,7%
      - Armament: 2.141 tons, 6,1%
      - Armour Deck: 2.130 tons, 6,1%
      - Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.843 tons, 13,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.109 tons, 43,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.044 tons, 11,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48.089 lbs / 21.813 Kg = 40,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 6,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 7,2 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,504
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   20,51 ft / 6,25 m
      - Mid (50%):      20,51 ft / 6,25 m
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Stern:      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,53 ft / 6,56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175,7%
   Waterplane Area: 57.557 Square feet or 5.347 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 941 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,10
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
50 tons radar
25 tons large marconi
25 tons crew comfort

Same ship, more, but smaller main guns.

QuoteReputation 305, French Battlecruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   30.958 t light; 32.470 t standard; 34.952 t normal; 36.938 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   823,49 ft / 820,21 ft x 104,99 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
   251,00 m / 250,00 m x 32,00 m  x 8,60 m

Armament:
      12 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (3 mounts), 865,70lbs / 392,68kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 3 raised guns - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in one mount, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward, 4 raised guns - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 11.912 lbs / 5.403 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   17,75 ft / 5,41 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,25" / 32 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   24,92 ft / 7,60 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 129.992 shp / 96.974 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 6.900nm at 15,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.467 tons

Complement:
   1.277 - 1.661

Cost:
   £4,905 million / $19,620 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.471 tons, 4,2%
   Armour: 9.592 tons, 27,4%
      - Belts: 4.267 tons, 12,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 586 tons, 1,7%
      - Armament: 2.379 tons, 6,8%
      - Armour Deck: 2.130 tons, 6,1%
      - Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.843 tons, 13,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.702 tons, 42,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.994 tons, 11,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     46.911 lbs / 21.278 Kg = 54,2 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 6,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 16,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,504
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   20,67 ft / 6,30 m
      - Mid (50%):      20,67 ft / 6,30 m
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   20,67 ft / 6,30 m
      - Stern:      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,71 ft / 6,62 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177,4%
   Waterplane Area: 57.557 Square feet or 5.347 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 914 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,06
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
50 tons radar
25 tons large marconi
25 tons crew comfort

I think your number of mounts in the second one is off. Maybe you mean to have 4 triples?

FWIW: I think the 8x340mm design is the better one.

Decorrupted the second design.

Reputation 305, French Battlecruiser laid down 1916

QuoteDisplacement:
   30.958 t light; 32.470 t standard; 34.952 t normal; 36.938 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   823,49 ft / 820,21 ft x 104,99 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
   251,00 m / 250,00 m x 32,00 m  x 8,60 m

Armament:
      12 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (4x3 guns), 865,70lbs / 392,67kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 11.912 lbs / 5.403 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   520,83 ft / 158,75 m   18,75 ft / 5,72 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 98% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,25" / 32 mm   520,83 ft / 158,75 m   24,92 ft / 7,60 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 129.992 shp / 96.974 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 6.900nm at 15,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.467 tons

Complement:
   1.277 - 1.661

Cost:
   £4,905 million / $19,620 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.471 tons, 4,2%
   Armour: 9.946 tons, 28,5%
      - Belts: 4.177 tons, 12,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 600 tons, 1,7%
      - Armament: 2.808 tons, 8,0%
      - Armour Deck: 2.130 tons, 6,1%
      - Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.843 tons, 13,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.348 tons, 41,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.994 tons, 11,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     46.833 lbs / 21.243 Kg = 54,1 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 6,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 6,8 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 16,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,504
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Mid (50%):      21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Stern:      21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,01 ft / 6,71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180,3%
   Waterplane Area: 57.557 Square feet or 5.347 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 890 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,03
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
50 tons radar
25 tons large marconi
25 tons crew comfort

With msn remarks form a few people, I shaved a bit on the first desing.

QuoteReputation, French Battlecruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   30.908 t light; 32.470 t standard; 34.952 t normal; 36.938 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   823,49 ft / 820,21 ft x 104,99 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
   251,00 m / 250,00 m x 32,00 m  x 8,60 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.460 lbs / 5.652 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   17,50 ft / 5,33 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,25" / 32 mm   508,53 ft / 155,00 m   24,92 ft / 7,60 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      11,0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   11,0" / 279 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      11,0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 129.992 shp / 96.974 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 6.900nm at 15,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.467 tons

Complement:
   1.277 - 1.661

Cost:
   £4,765 million / $19,062 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.372 tons, 3,9%
   Armour: 9.241 tons, 26,4%
      - Belts: 3.824 tons, 10,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 586 tons, 1,7%
      - Armament: 1.939 tons, 5,5%
      - Armour Deck: 2.662 tons, 7,6%
      - Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.843 tons, 13,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.102 tons, 43,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.044 tons, 11,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48.462 lbs / 21.982 Kg = 40,4 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 6,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,504
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   20,51 ft / 6,25 m
      - Mid (50%):      20,51 ft / 6,25 m
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Stern:      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,53 ft / 6,56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175,7%
   Waterplane Area: 57.557 Square feet or 5.347 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 941 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,12
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
50 tons radar
25 tons large marconi
25 tons crew comfort

None are bad; I'm not sure if I have a preference for which is best, though.  Might depend on whose battlecruisers you think you're most likely to match them against.

Based on the Bretagne class BB's

QuoteReputation III, French Battlecruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   32.455 t light; 34.063 t standard; 36.431 t normal; 38.325 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,78 ft / 718,50 ft x 94,49 ft x 28,54 ft (normal load)
   220,00 m / 219,00 m x 28,80 m  x 8,70 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.615 lbs / 7.083 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   474,21 ft / 144,54 m   22,00 ft / 6,71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 102% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,75" / 44 mm   474,21 ft / 144,54 m   27,47 ft / 8,37 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 113.233 shp / 84.472 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 6.300nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.262 tons

Complement:
   1.318 - 1.714

Cost:
   £5,374 million / $21,497 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.805 tons, 5,0%
   Armour: 12.211 tons, 33,5%
      - Belts: 5.376 tons, 14,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 843 tons, 2,3%
      - Armament: 3.332 tons, 9,1%
      - Armour Deck: 2.423 tons, 6,7%
      - Conning Tower: 237 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 4.515 tons, 12,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13.524 tons, 37,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.976 tons, 10,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     47.268 lbs / 21.440 Kg = 28,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,5 ft / 1,7 m
   Roll period: 16,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,84
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,658
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,60 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (18%):   23,62 ft / 7,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      23,62 ft / 7,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Stern:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23,83 ft / 7,26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177,6%
   Waterplane Area: 52.390 Square feet or 4.867 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 890 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,30
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Elongated Marad B, with AoN armoring, sloped 10°

400 tons misc weight is divided  between FC, a set of ears and crew comfort.

I like this one a lot.

QuoteMontmedy, French battlecruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   30.384 t light; 32.401 t standard; 35.673 t normal; 38.290 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   793,96 ft / 787,40 ft x 104,99 ft x 30,51 ft (normal load)
   242,00 m / 240,00 m x 32,00 m  x 9,30 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4 mounts), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.451 lbs / 7.008 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   482,28 ft / 147,00 m   19,00 ft / 5,79 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   482,28 ft / 147,00 m   26,85 ft / 8,18 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,25" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 101.904 shp / 76.020 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 8.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.890 tons

Complement:
   1.297 - 1.687

Cost:
   £5,066 million / $20,264 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.787 tons, 5,0%
   Armour: 10.519 tons, 29,5%
      - Belts: 4.755 tons, 13,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 719 tons, 2,0%
      - Armament: 2.484 tons, 7,0%
      - Armour Deck: 2.282 tons, 6,4%
      - Conning Tower: 280 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 3.797 tons, 10,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13.881 tons, 38,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.289 tons, 14,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     45.219 lbs / 20.511 Kg = 27,0 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,495
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (24%):   17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,72 ft / 5,71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139,6%
   Waterplane Area: 54.830 Square feet or 5.094 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 914 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,06
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
50 tons ears
25 tons long range marconi
75 tons crew comfort

Armor belt sloped 12°

A Dutch inspired model.
See (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2987.msg38199#msg38199)  this topic
But ommiting the torpedos.

She's also the cheapest model in this tread. Unfortunatly, only 3 yards capable building her. Brest . The 2 docks in Halifax, and the ultra large dock in Marseilles.

It does everything , including making French Fries.

QuotePays bas, French Tin clad BC laid down 1916

Displacement:
   24.802 t light; 26.022 t standard; 28.668 t normal; 30.785 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   885,83 ft / 882,55 ft x 88,58 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   270,00 m / 269,00 m x 27,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      9 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (3x3 guns), 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7.476 lbs / 3.391 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,50" / 114 mm   629,26 ft / 191,80 m   19,00 ft / 5,79 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 110% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   629,26 ft / 191,80 m   22,73 ft / 6,93 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 139.951 shp / 104.403 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 7.200nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.763 tons

Complement:
   1.101 - 1.432

Cost:
   £3,834 million / $15,335 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 887 tons, 3,1%
   Armour: 5.943 tons, 20,7%
      - Belts: 2.208 tons, 7,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 794 tons, 2,8%
      - Armament: 1.349 tons, 4,7%
      - Armour Deck: 1.431 tons, 5,0%
      - Conning Tower: 161 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 5.214 tons, 18,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.434 tons, 43,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.866 tons, 13,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40.418 lbs / 18.333 Kg = 63,7 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
   Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 15,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,43

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,96 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,68 ft / 9,96 m
      - Forecastle (19%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (10%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Stern:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23,69 ft / 7,22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 204,9%
   Waterplane Area: 51.573 Square feet or 4.791 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 795 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,03
      - Longitudinal: 0,98
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Belt sloped 12°

250 tons fire control
50 tons ears
25 tons long range marconi

But there's no miscellaneous weight set aside for a deep-fryer...

Oeps. You're right Rocky. 

Added the Gran Colombian cooking utensil.

QuotePays bas, French Tin clad BC laid down 1916

Displacement:
   24.802 t light; 26.022 t standard; 28.668 t normal; 30.785 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   885,83 ft / 882,55 ft x 88,58 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   270,00 m / 269,00 m x 27,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      9 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (3x3 guns), 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7.476 lbs / 3.391 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,50" / 114 mm   629,26 ft / 191,80 m   19,00 ft / 5,79 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 110% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   629,26 ft / 191,80 m   22,73 ft / 6,93 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 139.951 shp / 104.403 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 7.200nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.763 tons

Complement:
   1.101 - 1.432

Cost:
   £3,834 million / $15,335 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 887 tons, 3,1%
   Armour: 5.943 tons, 20,7%
      - Belts: 2.208 tons, 7,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 794 tons, 2,8%
      - Armament: 1.349 tons, 4,7%
      - Armour Deck: 1.431 tons, 5,0%
      - Conning Tower: 161 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 5.214 tons, 18,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.431 tons, 43,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.866 tons, 13,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 328 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40.404 lbs / 18.327 Kg = 63,7 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
   Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 15,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,43

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,96 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,68 ft / 9,96 m
      - Forecastle (19%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (10%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Stern:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23,69 ft / 7,22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 204,9%
   Waterplane Area: 51.573 Square feet or 4.791 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 795 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,03
      - Longitudinal: 0,98
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Belt sloped 12°

250 tons fire control
50 tons ears
25 tons long range marconi
2.5 tons for a Gran colombian supplier Deep Friar.

Much better.

 :D

Hopefully no one assumes that France is naming its battlecruisers from her future provinces.  :P

BTW I have some suggestions for the names of the sister ships: Catalogne, Piedmont and Baviere.  ;)

Actualy, I had a class of 6 in mind.

Cap-Occidental is another of the Pays-Bas sisters. And number 6 could be Carthagène des Indes.

 ;D ;D ;D

I like the Montmedy - but suggest to slope the main belt and thicken deck to 3" over the magazines - then she seems a true Fast BB, and still a bit cheaper than the most expensive one?

Like this?

QuoteMontmedy, French Fast battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   33.027 t light; 35.033 t standard; 38.909 t normal; 42.009 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   793,96 ft / 787,40 ft x 104,99 ft x 30,51 ft (normal load)
   242,00 m / 240,00 m x 32,00 m  x 9,30 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.583 lbs / 7.068 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,5" / 318 mm   482,28 ft / 147,00 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,75" / 44 mm   482,28 ft / 147,00 m   26,85 ft / 8,18 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 109.382 shp / 81.599 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6.976 tons

Complement:
   1.384 - 1.800

Cost:
   £5,301 million / $21,203 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.801 tons, 4,6%
   Armour: 12.395 tons, 31,9%
      - Belts: 5.230 tons, 13,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 838 tons, 2,2%
      - Armament: 2.858 tons, 7,3%
      - Armour Deck: 3.172 tons, 8,2%
      - Conning Tower: 297 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 4.075 tons, 10,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.306 tons, 36,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.882 tons, 15,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51.293 lbs / 23.266 Kg = 30,6 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 7,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
   Metacentric height 7,1 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (24%):   18,21 ft / 5,55 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,21 ft / 5,55 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,21 ft / 5,55 m
      - Stern:      18,21 ft / 5,55 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,60 ft / 5,97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143,2%
   Waterplane Area: 57.149 Square feet or 5.309 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 902 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,04
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
25 tons  Enhanced Radio Aural Detection equipment
25 tons long range marconi
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons Flag facilities

Armor belt sloped 12°

Yess - how many of these brutes can you afford? ;D

Probably a group of 4, starting HY02 1916.

Quote from: mentat on February 24, 2009, 09:54:35 AM
Yess - how many of these brutes can you afford? ;D

That is not the proper question to be asking Glorious France.
They are not worried about a ship that will only cost 33 million Franks... such is pocket change to the mighty French economy! The true worry is how much it will cost the MN to stock the Admiral's wine cellar. This will likely exceed the cost of the vessel itself by a tidy sum!

In that case I can only advocate a review re: further future-proofing - maybe 1" more armour and another 2x2 5.5" (adds 1000 tons?) - and make the batch of 4 the first of 2  or 3 even

I always thought the Italians (with the benefit of hindsight!!) got the Francesco Caracciolo right: 8 x 15" and 28 knots - it hits the spot just right - midway between the QEs and Hood

It sets a new benchmark - previous BBs look ponderous and can be effectively outmanouevered - most BCs are heavily outclassed .....

Man, it's getting expensive.
But she'll be hated all over the 7 seas. As beautifull Occitanie is, the ugle Montmendy will be.

QuoteMontmedy, French Fast battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   35.003 t light; 37.070 t standard; 41.092 t normal; 44.310 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   793,96 ft / 787,40 ft x 104,99 ft x 30,51 ft (normal load)
   242,00 m / 240,00 m x 32,00 m  x 9,30 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      6 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (3x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.768 lbs / 7.152 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   448,82 ft / 136,80 m   20,50 ft / 6,25 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 88% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   448,82 ft / 136,80 m   28,35 ft / 8,64 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 114.468 shp / 85.393 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.240 tons

Complement:
   1.442 - 1.875

Cost:
   £5,486 million / $21,944 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.822 tons, 4,4%
   Armour: 13.667 tons, 33,3%
      - Belts: 5.681 tons, 13,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 942 tons, 2,3%
      - Armament: 2.929 tons, 7,1%
      - Armour Deck: 3.807 tons, 9,3%
      - Conning Tower: 308 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.265 tons, 10,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.699 tons, 35,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.090 tons, 14,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 550 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55.793 lbs / 25.307 Kg = 33,3 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 16,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   18,86 ft / 5,75 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,86 ft / 5,75 m
      - Quarterdeck (18%):   18,86 ft / 5,75 m
      - Stern:      18,86 ft / 5,75 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,26 ft / 6,18 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146,5%
   Waterplane Area: 58.796 Square feet or 5.462 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 900 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,00
      - Longitudinal: 1,05
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
2 * 25 tons  Enhanced Radio Aural Detection equipment
2 * 25 tons long range marconi
100 tons crew comfort
100 tons Flag facilities
50 tons undefined


Armor belt sloped 12°

To be feared certainly - esp whole squadrons of them!!

2 minor queries:

Layout of centreline 5.5"s majority forward - how to fit in 2 forward?

High stem 33' vs focsle 19'

Could we humbly submit for pictures of the beasts?

The CSA's excellent draftsmen are considering illustrating this ship for our French friends, if we get our 1916/1 report and a few other to-do items done soon.

She's likely to have a pretty steep walk up to the stem though, especially with the ram bow. It might be time for the French to experiment with a clipper form.

Quote from: mentat on February 24, 2009, 01:35:21 PM
Could we humbly submit for pictures of the beasts?

Second that, considering all the guns are at deck level and spread out, it might be tricky to find space for the secondaries in areas were they do not interfere with the main battery.
This apart from the rather silly stem. :)

Well CSA drawings are indeed the best - she is bigger and badder than Enterprise - ?? will she be prettier??

I'm sure the high stem is easily sorted - or could use it to launch some early wireless controlled UAVs  ;)

Quote from: mentat on February 24, 2009, 02:05:44 PM

Well CSA drawings are indeed the best - she is bigger and badder than Enterprise - ?? will she be prettier??

No. French ships always have their own look, as we say. It's easy to build ugly ships when you are the Nverse's greatest superpower.

If you want really pretty, I'm afraid you'll have to lobby for a new CSA battlecruiser to be built. Sadly, that would probably have to wait until some docks get expanded. Otherwise it's likely the CSA will continue building workmanlike BBs.

Have to agree with Korpen. The secndaries will cut seriously into the firing arcs of the main guns. As all of them are deck level, it will be a problem - very limited firing arcs, forward and aft only one turret could bear. If you have to turn to unmask guns, your effective closing speed drops by several knots.

BTW I do not really understand the belt armor. Is there like 1.6m below the freeboard unarmored, i.e. the deck below partially covered? IMO SS2 assumes that the weather deck is on freeboard level for structural calculations (box girdle or whatever it is called).

Well most revolutions have a few problems - esp. French ones ...  ;)

Ok, comments noted.

On the main gun fire arcs and secundaries.  A drawing will make a lot more clear, but I went back to the original idea. Only a 10 gun secundary battery, but all centerline , raised.  The 6 37mm AA guns are just the sprinkles in the icing.

QuoteMontmedy, French Fast battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   34.997 t light; 37.029 t standard; 41.049 t normal; 44.265 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   793,96 ft / 787,40 ft x 104,99 ft x 30,51 ft (normal load)
   242,00 m / 240,00 m x 32,00 m  x 9,30 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      6 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (3x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.398 lbs / 6.984 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   472,44 ft / 144,00 m   20,50 ft / 6,25 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 92% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   472,44 ft / 144,00 m   28,35 ft / 8,64 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 114.367 shp / 85.318 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.235 tons

Complement:
   1.441 - 1.874

Cost:
   £5,427 million / $21,709 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.780 tons, 4,3%
   Armour: 13.742 tons, 33,5%
      - Belts: 5.916 tons, 14,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 991 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 2.994 tons, 7,3%
      - Armour Deck: 3.533 tons, 8,6%
      - Conning Tower: 308 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.261 tons, 10,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.714 tons, 35,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.052 tons, 14,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57.758 lbs / 26.199 Kg = 34,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 9,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 7,2 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,82 ft / 9,70 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (18%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,93 ft / 6,38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,1%
   Waterplane Area: 58.763 Square feet or 5.459 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 896 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,08
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
2 * 25 tons  Enhanced Radio Aural Detection equipment
2 * 25 tons long range marconi
100 tons crew comfort
100 tons Flag facilities



Armor belt sloped 12°

On armor lay out.   The weather deck ain't the armor deck. The 6.25 meter high armor belt is nicely placed so the ship has protection , fully loaded or light.
When fully loaded, the belt is only 1.9m above the waterline, when light its 3.8m above the waterline.

This means at least 1 full deck is above the armor deck, and the barbettes are partialy in this unarmored part. One of the reasons these are as thick as the armor belt.

Just as a sidenote, what motivates the build-up considering there is no realistic threats to France, and she is in the most secure position she have been in for at least 200 years?

Paranoia?

Or that Spanish 'Wargame' ? ....

Probably inspired by the strong battlecruiser component of the Irish Navy :P

Quote from: mentat on February 25, 2009, 01:43:05 PM

Or that Spanish 'Wargame' ? ....

As an OOC comment the big Iberian AC's were able to just shove the French PC's out of the way whenever they felt like during the battle; the french screen couldn't do the same.  What would have happened with equal tonnage of PC's vs. BC's is hard to say but I doubt it would have gone well for the French even then.  In my opinion the French navy needs a far more powerful screen.  More DD's, more PC's and perhaps a BC element.

Michael

Now that Korpen has enquired re French objectives - it is also interesting to speculate on Iberia's

Interesting that a particular theme is evident first in the leak and then in an open communication?

Is Iberia seeking to influence France's future shipbuilding priorities?

BTW - has anything come of the High Level and Top Priority investigation into how the leak came about?

Re - the Sim

If the PC squadron is tasked with a critical mission such as fleet scouting - will it not seek to use its advantage of speed to tackle an obstacle like ACs - only 1/2 PCs are required to move forward and can do so at high speed - zig zag and manouever to avoid incoming fire - keeping a steady course to optimise return fire can readily be sacrificed in a rece mission esp. if range for their own guns is extreme

Not ideal - but perhaps what they are ready to do if required

The big AC's in question were HIIMS Fernando de Magallanes and HIIMS Vasco da Gama 23,500 light ton cruisers able to do 26.75 knots and armed with 12" guns.  As such the six french cruisers didn't have much of a speed advantage; while the Iberian cruisers had a massive firepower and armor advantage.  If the French cruisers were to attempt fight those ships they needed to close as fast as possible to get into torpedo range to use their eight torpedo's a piece.  If the French were to get around these ships they either needed more numbers or a much higher speed advantage. 

As to why Iberia did the fight...  feel free to speculate... you might even be right...  ;)

Michael

Big ACs? - now I check they have 8 x 12" and protection to match - that rates as BC to me

But there is still a 4 knot advantage - can't really say whether they can be avoided or not without seeing the battle plot

I certainly wasn't advocating taking them on directly - they're there to recon and that's what they're equipped for - so should endeavour to carry out the recon function - high speed evasive manouevring at range of more than 12000 yards - should minimise the risk - esp if only 1 does it with rest not too far for support

Arguably a  medium sized but fast ship is better suited to this - if your AC/BCs have a similar opponent - you probably get an immediate sub-battle rather than effective recon

Quote from: mentat on February 25, 2009, 08:29:20 PM

Big ACs? - now I check they have 8 x 12" and protection to match - that rates as BC to me

Iberia rates such ships as Armored Cruisers.

Quote from: mentat on February 25, 2009, 08:29:20 PM

But there is still a 4 knot advantage - can't really say whether they can be avoided or not without seeing the battle plot

The Demarce III  are 28 knot ships and the new Demarce IV are 31 knot ships.  France had the III's as per the provided OOB for the French Atlantic Fleet.

Quote from: mentat on February 25, 2009, 08:29:20 PM
I certainly wasn't advocating taking them on directly - they're there to recon and that's what they're equipped for - so should endeavour to carry out the recon function - high speed evasive manouevring at range of more than 12000 yards - should minimise the risk - esp if only 1 does it with rest not too far for support

If you look at the battle the Iberian main body was 20 miles behind the scout group getting to within 12K yards of the AC's does nothing to find and ID the main body and gets them shot up for their efforts.  The French cruisers wanted to stay out of range of the Iberian AC's for the simple reason that if they take any 12" hits the risk of being crippled is rather high.  The Iberian main body put out a huge smoke cloud because of its coal fired nature but to ID ships required getting within 30,000  to 35,000 yards or so of it and that would mean getting within 5,000 yards or so of the AC's.  Thats a loosing idea.  What the French needed / wanted to do was get around the Iberian scout group.  The problem was one of numbers, fire power and battlefield geography.  The Iberian scout group was six ships, two of which were the AC's faced by six french cruisers.  So the edge was clearly with the Iberian Scout Group.  Also because the Scout Group is acting as long range screen all they had to do was react to French movements and keep the French back; to do that means just getting in their way.     

Quote from: mentat on February 25, 2009, 08:29:20 PM
Arguably a  medium sized but fast ship is better suited to this - if your AC/BCs have a similar opponent - you probably get an immediate sub-battle rather than effective recon

The French problem was they just didn't have enough light ships; Iberia had four AC's and eight PC's vs. two HC's (old ships armed with two 12" guns in single mounts ) and six PC's.  Of course this was a fairly large chunk of the Iberian cruiser force but it was also nearly half of Frances modern Cruiser force.  France had for a long time focused on Big Ships; which is fine but its a choice with some problems.

Of course any war between France and Iberia is won or lost on Land with a massive edge to France.

Michael

With these (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=675.msg23468#msg23468) ships around, Glorious france is needing an answer...

To be honest - I was far more interested in what lay behind the Wargame leak than in the details of the Sim itself (it's your Sim - you can run it as you like)

- you have stayed rather quiet on that!

In particular - was it a spy, a mole or a dastardly traitor? Will they face a firing squad or perhaps a promotion? ;)



Re - the Sim which I have now revisited so I know a bit better what I am talking about

Yes - if Demarce III - then no useful speed advantage

Given France has disadvantage in BBs and Big ACs - why are they accepting Battle front-on following the Airship recon. info? - are there no other options?

The 2 Big ACs (up to you what you call them, but the report misled me at the time, I think of such ships as BCs - they can join the main Battle) - do give an advtge in the Scouting phase

- but I am more impressed with their ability to join the Battle and concentrate on the enemy Flagship - I think this is more significant in the Sim and generally

This thread is all about proposed Big BCs/Fast BBs - so seems to be being addressed

Coming back to the Scouting situation


1. Probably the most vital info. was to confirm the Iberian Hvy Scouting Group is there - safest assumption is Main body is close behind

2. I'm not sure why the Demarce were initially all together

In this era pre Radar and all-weather aircraft - Recon is haphazard - there is a real possibility of 2 Fleets sailing right past each other - just over the horizon
(Nearly happened at Jutland - the Lt Crsrs of the 2 BC Scouting Forces only got in contact by both investigating a Danish steamer on their extreme wing)

So I would expect them to be spread out in a net but still in visual contact in perhaps 3 pairs (can rejoin for mutual support if req'd) - this would also give them more chance for 1 pair to manouever around any heavy opposition - which they anticipate

The problem in this situation - is that given Iberia force has more Cruisers in total - in doing so they could risk being cut-off

- they might get their addn'l info. but suffer for it getting back out - a different problem

Overall I can see several ways the Scouting phase could work out - but I can't see anything stopping the 2 Big ACs joining the Main Battle - which then makes it 10 on 5? - definitely not Cricket!!

Oh, sure, Korpen, wake the sleeping elephant...

Mentat:  Yes, I call them armored cruisers too.  I've depicted the Colombians as having endured the nomenclature debate internally and decided that the ships continue the historical function of older ACs.

Same for the CSA, although some things on the drawing board may lead to a new classification.

Gentlemen - they're your ships - please call them whatever you like - the key thing is what they can do ...

Quote from: mentat on February 26, 2009, 05:20:29 AM

To be honest - I was far more interested in what lay behind the Wargame leak than in the details of the Sim itself (it's your Sim - you can run it as you like)

- you have stayed rather quiet on that!

In particular - was it a spy, a mole or a dastardly traitor? Will they face a firing squad or perhaps a promotion? ;)



Re - the Sim which I have now revisited so I know a bit better what I am talking about

Yes - if Demarce III - then no useful speed advantage

Correct on the speed issue...

Quote from: mentat on February 26, 2009, 05:20:29 AM
Given France has disadvantage in BBs and Big ACs - why are they accepting Battle front-on following the Airship recon. info? - are there no other options?

Because they have 15" guns and the most powerful battleship in the world; in otherwords French ego.  The French could have choosen to do other things but the Iberian read on the French is that they wouldn't and when presented with a target they would go right after it.

Quote from: mentat on February 26, 2009, 05:20:29 AM
The 2 Big ACs (up to you what you call them, but the report misled me at the time, I think of such ships as BCs - they can join the main Battle) - do give an advtge in the Scouting phase

They were designed to do as you describe but the older Iberian AC's have been used the same way in the Balkan War in Particular.

Quote from: mentat on February 26, 2009, 05:20:29 AM
- but I am more impressed with their ability to join the Battle and concentrate on the enemy Flagship - I think this is more significant in the Sim and generally

Eight 12" guns is good firepower.

Quote from: mentat on February 26, 2009, 05:20:29 AM
This thread is all about proposed Big BCs/Fast BBs - so seems to be being addressed

Coming back to the Scouting situation


1. Probably the most vital info. was to confirm the Iberian Hvy Scouting Group is there - safest assumption is Main body is close behind

The air recon confirmed that and the large smoke cloud scene from time to time also made that likely.

Quote from: mentat on February 26, 2009, 05:20:29 AM
2. I'm not sure why the Demarce were initially all together

In this era pre Radar and all-weather aircraft - Recon is haphazard - there is a real possibility of 2 Fleets sailing right past each other - just over the horizon
(Nearly happened at Jutland - the Lt Crsrs of the 2 BC Scouting Forces only got in contact by both investigating a Danish steamer on their extreme wing)

So I would expect them to be spread out in a net but still in visual contact in perhaps 3 pairs (can rejoin for mutual support if req'd) - this would also give them more chance for 1 pair to manouever around any heavy opposition - which they anticipate

The French fleet had eight cruisers total... conctact was first made on the 12th by two such cruisers.

Quote12th Iberian Fleet leaves Lisbon for Bilbao on north coast of Spain 650 miles away at 10 knots; to arrive in 65 hours.  Scout Group encounters two French Demarce III class cruisers 19 hours out of Lisbon.  French Cruisers signals French Atlantic Fleet at Brest of contact.  French Fleet sorties and airship is directed to area.  

The French called in the other cruisers and the fleet so by the time of the battle six of the eight had assembled; they were assumed to be in the atlantic attempting to enforce a blockade.

Quote from: mentat on February 26, 2009, 05:20:29 AM
The problem in this situation - is that given Iberia force has more Cruisers in total - in doing so they could risk being cut-off

- they might get their addn'l info. but suffer for it getting back out - a different problem

Overall I can see several ways the Scouting phase could work out - but I can't see anything stopping the 2 Big ACs joining the Main Battle - which then makes it 10 on 5? - definitely not Cricket!!

Nod...  Again french ego with twenty eight 15" vs. thirty two 13" and 12" guns (ignoring the PDN's).

Michael

Montmedy is layed down, to a sleigthly  larger design, heavely influenced by the "never build" Occitanie.

A lot of tweaking, a lot of adapting, but in the end, she just became a lengthened, and 8 gunned Occitanie.

But, SHE's HUGE and very expensive.

QuoteMontmedy, French Fast battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   40.153 t light; 42.163 t standard; 46.534 t normal; 50.032 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   826,77 ft / 820,21 ft x 118,11 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
   252,00 m / 250,00 m x 36,00 m  x 9,20 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.509 lbs / 7.488 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 115

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   434,71 ft / 132,50 m   23,00 ft / 7,01 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 82% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   434,71 ft / 132,50 m   27,83 ft / 8,48 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 131.808 shp / 98.328 Kw = 28,50 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.869 tons

Complement:
   1.583 - 2.059

Cost:
   £6,044 million / $24,176 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.906 tons, 4,1%
   Armour: 14.732 tons, 31,7%
      - Belts: 5.884 tons, 12,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 895 tons, 1,9%
      - Armament: 3.526 tons, 7,6%
      - Armour Deck: 4.092 tons, 8,8%
      - Conning Tower: 334 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.911 tons, 10,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 18.105 tons, 38,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.381 tons, 13,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     70.116 lbs / 31.804 Kg = 41,9 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 11,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 8,2 ft / 2,5 m
   Roll period: 17,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,94 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,15 ft / 9,80 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   21,82 ft / 6,65 m
      - Mid (50%):      21,82 ft / 6,65 m (21,65 ft / 6,60 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22%):   21,65 ft / 6,60 m
      - Stern:      21,65 ft / 6,60 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,77 ft / 6,94 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177,9%
   Waterplane Area: 68.054 Square feet or 6.322 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 983 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,11
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
2 * 25 tons  Enhanced Radio Aural Detection equipment
2 * 25 tons long range marconi
100 tons crew comfort
100 tons Flag facilities



Armor belt sloped 12°

Other than the similar levels of protection and the main gun caliber, it seems like a very different ship than Occitanie.

I agree she's huge and expensive - a logical start for the French battlecruiser program.

She started out as the Occitanie springsharp file.

First I tried to retain the same armament, and just by shoving in a 50 meter hullpiece to upp her speed.
That delivered a very unseaworthy vessel. One going over 50Ktons light. And with a speed of 25 Kts.

After that the main guns came in 3 tripples, but that wasn't to my liking.

In the end, the 4 twins- the same as the Marats- and the same secundary armament as Occitanie -20 140mm guns in twins, and 2 extra as bloodpressure riser was opted for.
(I rather forget to remove that twin after the change from 3 tripples to 4 twins) .

The rest is just changes to the hull to get the ship to 40Ktons and get her seakeeping up to French standards.  The speed -by accident became one of the few half kts ships I have- 28.5 kts.
Range and cruise speed is the same as the Demarce IIIb's.

Main disadvantage. It will take 49 months to complete her. Meaning march 1920 before she's ready.

Good to see you are going ahead - puts the Cat among the Pigeons as it were! :D

Will be very interesting to see how the other major players respond ....

Out of interest - because this area appeals so much - I had just simmed a quite similar ship and also reached 42000 standard - it is a bit shorter - 785' and a bit more protection (armour = 34% as future proofing of a big expensive asset) - but overall I prefer yours - esp. wider beam and shallower draft giving steadier gun platform and a bit more torp. protn

- a bit like your Bismarck to my Vanguard

Another aspect - after that Ersatz Preussen nonsense - I simmed larger 28 knot Fast BBs (these are 825' x 108 or 116) - with 10 (334) or 12 x 15" (4x3) to see just how $$$$ they would be - with further slight increments in armour (to future proof yet more expensive/precious assets!) - they came out at 46,200 (GBP 6.7m) and 52,200 standard (GBP 7.8m)

   - somehow I think the 8 x 15" at 28 knots will set the standard for a while ...

  (but I did like the 334)

Now come on, we don't need anybody encouraging Mario.  You're supposed to tell him that the armor only needs to be 6" thick, or something like that.

As to other player reaction - well, it'll be 1918 before I'm in a position to lay down any new capital ships, so we'll see. 

Just drug all the wine and steal the Ship! ;D

Do I look like the kind of person who'd do that?

should we answer that question? ;)

Only if your answer is, "No!  Of course not!"

then I guess I won't answer  ::)

;D

Alternatively - blow it up on Bastille Day - a Glorious French Firework! ;D

To cover (their a***s) themselves the French Authorities will of course immediately announce this as a deliberate act of National Celebration - and henceforth will be required to blow up a Large Expensive Battleship every year in Commemoration of La Glorious Revolution ......

QuoteTo cover (their a***s) themselves the French Authorities will of course immediately announce this as a deliberate act of National Celebration - and henceforth will be required to blow up a Large Expensive Battleship every year in Commemoration of La Glorious Revolution ......

Lovely!  ;D  Ohhh Ahhhh!

Rock Docter - BTW - you are waiting until 1918 - mmm  -  so what Tech Level do you have up your sleeve by then??!!

It's not so much that I'm waiting as I've already committed most of my resources to other capital ship projects that won't be done until then.  I'm kinda stuck.

What tech will I have done by then?  Concievably new armor and protection, newer guns, newer engines, second generation fire control, and large ports/slips to build in.  There's no guarantee that I will necessarily respond directly to this though - I might instead opt for slower battleships, submarines, aircraft carriers, or the slab-sided horror.

Purposefully diving into a building race with Glorious, Inconquerable, Unmockable France seems like folly, as no single nation has a chance of even competing. Of course, if one only wants to force France to spend horrendous amounts of $ and BP building an incoherent battlefleet, they might have more success.

Glorious, Inconquerable, Unmockable - are those Mondedor's Sisters? ;D

Quote from: mentat on March 05, 2009, 09:22:48 AM

Alternatively - blow it up on Bastille Day - a Glorious French Firework! ;D

To cover (their a***s) themselves the French Authorities will of course immediately announce this as a deliberate act of National Celebration - and henceforth will be required to blow up a Large Expensive Battleship every year in Commemoration of La Glorious Revolution ......

Actualy, Glorious France has reasons to be paranoïd about sabotage.

At least 3 instances are know to Glorious France that sabotage was involved in the loss of or crippling warships.

The 1000 tons sloop Chardon Marie (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=309.msg17812#msg17812) suffered an on board explosion. Later to be seen as a limpet mine action. Actions by people unknown. Possible a resistance group with religious leanings.

Napoleon the Great  (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=309.msg18560#msg18560)that patrolled the French Polynesian waters for example.  The forward boilerroom blew up by the old trick of coal torpedos.  Explosive charges camoflaged as largisch lumps of coal.
It's one of the reasons the coal industry was losing the struggle to Keep the French marine on coal. No one is accused, but it's tought that the New Swiss under President Robinson were behind it.

Only the timely offer of the Habsburgs to send in a tender to get her repaired enough to get to the Tricomalee Fleet base saved her from the same fate Greater Napoleon befel. Being dug in and put in concrete as a fortress.

Asymmetrics - gets you every time! :D

Love the Coal Torpedos!

Thinking about Sabotage ;D

Is there a tech. guideline on small underwater stuff - frogmen, limpet mines, Chariots (Italian style), Mini-Subs (RN X Boat vs Tirpitz) ?

I'm thinking as more 40+k ton Monsters appear in the 1920s - then these are a very attractive response!!

Real world I think it was explored somewhat in WW1 - then nothing much until WW2 kicked off the need again? vs in nverse there will be a real rationale in the 20s?

No special tech tree in that.

Also, not needed, most technologies are known, it's the use that makes it different.
And, if you see how much luck was involved in most, if not all of this kind of actions...

  Yes - very brave men :'(   ......

The realisation that the Huge Montmedy won't be in use before 1920, and the delayed refit of NtG gave birth to this wacko idea.

QuoteNapoleon the Great, French battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   21.087 t light; 22.097 t standard; 24.076 t normal; 25.659 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620,08 ft / 613,52 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 95,14 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   189,00 m / 187,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 29,00 m)  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns in single mounts, 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11.517 lbs / 5.224 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   12,25 ft / 3,73 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   337,43 ft / 102,85 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 109% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,50" / 38 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   12,0" / 305 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 78.826 shp / 58.804 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.562 tons

Complement:
   966 - 1.256

Cost:
   £2,245 million / $8,982 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.305 tons, 5,4%
   Armour: 6.974 tons, 29,0%
      - Belts: 3.056 tons, 12,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 604 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 1.799 tons, 7,5%
      - Armour Deck: 1.299 tons, 5,4%
      - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2.937 tons, 12,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.521 tons, 39,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.989 tons, 12,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27.396 lbs / 12.427 Kg = 22,8 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 19,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (30%):   26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Mid (45%):      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Stern:      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,29 ft / 6,49 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130,5%
   Waterplane Area: 35.119 Square feet or 3.263 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 863 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,57
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

The extensive rebuild of NtG

Lengthened, with 21 meters, part of that is in the new ,higher bow, the rest aft of Q turret.
The space is used for new engines and oil fired boilers.
Re-arranged armor, removal of end armor, thinning of upper armor
Replaced the 275mm twins with single 340mm turrets
(Nverse II, the main gun turrets of the last generation CCBB's)

tertiary armament changed from 12 casemated 105 to 10 140mm single mount and hoist .



The misc weight.
250 tons FC
25 tons large marconi
25 tons ERADe
50 tons crew comfort

  Interesting - but I guess key questions are how long to convert and how much $$$

Deck armour seems too thin for future combat situations, also how long a service life would it have?

The conversion should take 15 months.

Pricetag is 9 BP and  $13.5

Service life after rebuild 30 years.

But you're right, deck armor is getting thin for the time.
On the other hand, without the changes ,the ship would become even less usable, and then she would be scrapped after 15 years of service or so.

Has Glorious France considered just leaving the 275mm emplacements empty (or with 140mm guns) and using the weight savings for extra deck protection?  For a battlecruiser of the size and speed, 6 x 340mm is still a good punch.

I did think about that, but simming the vessel without the 2 side turrets changes the whole equation.

On the other hand, the rules allow for barbette removal.

Without the 2 side turrets enough weight becomes available for a whopping 4" deck and 16 140mm guns in 8 twin turrets.

QuoteNapoleon the Great, France battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   21.192 t light; 22.097 t standard; 24.076 t normal; 25.659 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620,08 ft / 613,52 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 95,14 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   189,00 m / 187,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 29,00 m)  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 9.285 lbs / 4.212 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   12,25 ft / 3,73 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   337,43 ft / 102,85 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 109% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,50" / 38 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   3,00" / 76 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 78.826 shp / 58.804 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.562 tons

Complement:
   966 - 1.256

Cost:
   £2,050 million / $8,200 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.068 tons, 4,4%
   Armour: 7.841 tons, 32,6%
      - Belts: 3.056 tons, 12,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 604 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 1.367 tons, 5,7%
      - Armour Deck: 2.599 tons, 10,8%
      - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2.937 tons, 12,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.796 tons, 36,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.884 tons, 12,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 550 tons, 2,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30.121 lbs / 13.663 Kg = 25,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 18,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,18 ft / 9,20 m
      - Forecastle (30%):   26,90 ft / 8,20 m
      - Mid (45%):      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Stern:      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,53 ft / 6,56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,2%
   Waterplane Area: 35.119 Square feet or 3.263 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 795 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,56
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Big improvement - and probably worth it - but now I feel picky about the Barbette armour

You can't win  ;)

With the budget of France, it is doable.  But is it worth the extra effort?  It's the idea to get a fast ship in action quickly.

personally, I'd stick with the single mount wing guns idea and the 2" deck. That's not just because the single wing guns were my idea though :)

For the short term, she'll be fine that way, and an interesting ship to boot. Later on, when she's been replaced in the front line by more modern ships, she'd still make an impressive 2nd line station flagship somewhere like Kolkata.  Truthfully, for a reconstructed ship, 2" decks aren't *that* thin. At least, that's my opinion.

my 2cents worth is to ditch the 2 single turrets (nasty anachronisms - yuk) and split weight gained between Deck 80mm? and Barbette (esp sides) armour - I think is best solution and produces worthwhile ship  :)

Quote from: mentat on March 05, 2009, 05:37:03 AM
Good to see you are going ahead - puts the Cat among the Pigeons as it were! :D

Will be very interesting to see how the other major players respond ....
- somehow I think the 8 x 15" at 28 knots will set the standard for a while ...

I didnt know about these but Rohan has 2 8X15.5X28 knot Monsters like this under construction

After talking too hooper82 I came with this variant.

QuoteGannef, French True BC laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   24.998 t light; 26.392 t standard; 29.280 t normal; 31.590 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   692,26 ft / 688,98 ft x 104,99 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   211,00 m / 210,00 m x 32,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9.427 lbs / 4.276 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   399,61 ft / 121,80 m   17,00 ft / 5,18 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 89% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   399,61 ft / 121,80 m   23,91 ft / 7,29 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 85.084 shp / 63.473 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 15.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.198 tons

Complement:
   1.118 - 1.454

Cost:
   £4,029 million / $16,116 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.068 tons, 3,6%
   Armour: 8.939 tons, 30,5%
      - Belts: 3.637 tons, 12,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 707 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 1.847 tons, 6,3%
      - Armour Deck: 2.544 tons, 8,7%
      - Conning Tower: 205 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 3.170 tons, 10,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.421 tons, 39,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.282 tons, 14,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48.459 lbs / 21.981 Kg = 40,4 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 8,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 7,5 ft / 2,3 m
   Roll period: 16,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,36
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (17%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Stern:      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,26 ft / 6,48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173,3%
   Waterplane Area: 50.001 Square feet or 4.645 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 838 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,32
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
25 ton ERADe
25 ton long range Marconi
50 ton crew comfort
50 ton not assigned

Is there a roll for this ship? It appears to be what I have been suggesting all along, a economy battlecruiser. Is this for export? The torpedo bulkhead seems a bit excessive. Just as a question, what happens if you mount all the guns forward, like on the Nelson, and put a blimp hanger in the rear, with a floatplane catapult on top?

Looks like an undergunned, slower, overarmoured Repulse/Renown.

Repulse wasn't overgunned. Also, France needs battlecruisers like these. France is very vunerable to commerence raiders. These are second line anti-raider ships.

My opinion is that of Sachmle :-\ I don't think France is vulnerable to commerce raiders.

Really? It has several far off colonies, and even if it can't anti-raid, it can raid. That ship is a new Glorie.

All I see is a waste of BPs. The 12" guns are overkill for raiding. Not to mention would be easier to hit with smaller and more guns.

Corrupt, decandant France. Of course they'll build it. Hey, thats something I would build, I believe in overarmouring to the extreme.

France has raiders/anti raiders.  That ain't the thing.

Gannef is just an excersize. I will need to think of a role for this ship.

And, decadent, corupt France has another BC cooking, 2 even, Montmedie and Mont Bruyere

Escort battlecruisers for your destroyers?  ;). Sounds like something France would do.

Sounds so very Swiss ;)

There aren't a lot of folks with better battlecruisers than these.  They could be effective operating in scouting, raiding, or counter-raiding functions when the two big-ass French BCs are off doing something else.

Now all France needs is a low-rider battlecruiser.  8). Hehehe

Not a fan of the design. TDS is fine, should stop all hull and frame fragments, while being thin enough to still be somewhat elastic.  Compromises everywhere and the result isn't great in my opinon. 

So like the Nuevo Leon class, then?

IMO, 27kts BCs is enough to be the fast wing of a 22kts BBs squadron.

Jef  ;)

Quote from: TexanCowboy on October 12, 2009, 03:01:59 PM
So like the Nuevo Leon class, then?

the NLs were decent enough BBs in their day... Everyone was making comprimises, some just happend to make diferent ones than others.

Quote from: Jefgte on October 12, 2009, 03:26:27 PM
IMO, 27kts BCs is enough to be the fast wing of a 22kts BBs squadron.

Jef  ;)

25 is fast enough for that Jef or atleast thats my opinion on it

For you.

As usual ;D an Esc reply ; :D ; 8)

QuoteEsc Bc laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   27.811 t light; 29.071 t standard; 31.621 t normal; 33.661 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720,99 ft / 717,52 ft x 104,99 ft x 29,04 ft (normal load)
   219,76 m / 218,70 m x 32,00 m  x 8,85 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.308,20lbs / 593,39kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      20 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (10x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 9.921 lbs / 4.500 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   419,95 ft / 128,00 m   15,58 ft / 4,75 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   419,95 ft / 128,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   419,95 ft / 128,00 m   26,05 ft / 7,94 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   3rd:   0,98" / 25 mm   0,98" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11,81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 98.949 shp / 73.816 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.590 tons

Complement:
   1.185 - 1.541

Cost:
   £5,062 million / $20,249 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.240 tons, 3,9 %
   Armour: 11.133 tons, 35,2 %
      - Belts: 4.859 tons, 15,4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 797 tons, 2,5 %
      - Armament: 1.547 tons, 4,9 %
      - Armour Deck: 3.676 tons, 11,6 %
      - Conning Tower: 254 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 3.687 tons, 11,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.251 tons, 35,6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.811 tons, 12,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     45.427 lbs / 20.605 Kg = 34,7 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 7,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,32
   Metacentric height 8,8 ft / 2,7 m
   Roll period: 14,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,506
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,83 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,54 ft / 5,04 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 50.466 Square feet or 4.688 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,00
      - Longitudinal: 1,06
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

10 dg outward slope

Just post the ship you built in 1914. That's a better ship.

not even shields on the secondary guns ouch... crew is going to love that

Gannaf does seem more logical in the Fleet Heavy Scout role than Montmedy (overkill for that)

But if you have 2 new Super Duper Fast BBs at 28 knots - a 27 knot BC does seem a bit odd - to give it longer useful life + stir things up a bit - why not a 30 or 31 knot version - say using Montmedy engines  ;D

  - then they could chase down most ACs - now that would be interesting  :D

Montmedy is seen as a counter to the Dutch Armored Frigates. But strong enough to stand in the line with the slower BB's if that is called for.

This vessel is just an excersize from a "Nverse French naval engineer". The Nverse French fleet has other vessels in the heavy scout role. But I'm reading the reactions, and up to now, it seems it will stay a paper project.

But, with another project in mind.... I could do an enlarged Gloire II (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1628.msg20236#msg20236)

QuoteGloire III, French Battlecruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   29.900 t light; 31.429 t standard; 34.424 t normal; 36.820 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   708,66 ft / 705,38 ft x 114,83 ft x 31,00 ft (normal load)
   216,00 m / 215,00 m x 35,00 m  x 9,45 m

Armament:
      6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.334 lbs / 5.595 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   458,50 ft / 139,75 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   458,50 ft / 139,75 m   26,78 ft / 8,16 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 137.989 shp / 102.940 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.392 tons

Complement:
   1.263 - 1.642

Cost:
   £5,925 million / $23,699 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.424 tons, 4,1%
   Armour: 8.542 tons, 24,8%
      - Belts: 2.792 tons, 8,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 909 tons, 2,6%
      - Armament: 1.917 tons, 5,6%
      - Armour Deck: 2.696 tons, 7,8%
      - Conning Tower: 228 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 5.141 tons, 14,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.393 tons, 41,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.524 tons, 13,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48.101 lbs / 21.818 Kg = 28,7 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 7,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 8,8 ft / 2,7 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,480
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (23%):   24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Mid (60%):      24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (12%):   24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Stern:      24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   25,06 ft / 7,64 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 196,7%
   Waterplane Area: 52.996 Square feet or 4.924 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 958 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,88
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
25 Ton long range marconi
25 ton ERADe
50 ton crew comfort
50 ton not assigned.

Another approach. Thanks to Hooper82

QuoteGloire III, French Battlecruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   28.942 t light; 30.230 t standard; 33.165 t normal; 35.512 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   708,66 ft / 705,38 ft x 114,83 ft x 29,86 ft (normal load)
   216,00 m / 215,00 m x 35,00 m  x 9,10 m

Armament:
      12 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (4x3 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9.102 lbs / 4.129 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   426,76 ft / 130,08 m   14,50 ft / 4,42 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 93% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   426,76 ft / 130,08 m   25,79 ft / 7,86 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 135.037 shp / 100.738 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.282 tons

Complement:
   1.228 - 1.597

Cost:
   £5,316 million / $21,265 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.120 tons, 3,4%
   Armour: 8.912 tons, 26,9%
      - Belts: 2.739 tons, 8,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 814 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 2.439 tons, 7,4%
      - Armour Deck: 2.697 tons, 8,1%
      - Conning Tower: 222 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 5.031 tons, 15,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13.479 tons, 40,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.223 tons, 12,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     49.726 lbs / 22.555 Kg = 78,4 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 7,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 7,9 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,480
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (26%):   25,43 ft / 7,75 m
      - Mid (60%):      25,43 ft / 7,75 m
      - Quarterdeck (14%):   25,43 ft / 7,75 m
      - Stern:      24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   25,80 ft / 7,86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 209,1%
   Waterplane Area: 53.007 Square feet or 4.924 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 898 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,94
      - Longitudinal: 1,71
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
25 Ton long range marconi
25 ton ERADe
50 ton crew comfort
50 ton not assigned.

Makes a vicious raider/cruiser killer, (for now) can outrun anything it can't outgun.

Yikes. I don't think 12x275mm on almost 29,000 tons is a respectable armament.

Ahoj!
The eleven inchers keep the captains (and admirals) from using those ships for what they should NOT be used - i.e. fighting battleships. They are cruiser killers supreme.

I do not expect a better armed ship of comparable size to be protected against 11" shells. So ROF should should carry the day.

Of course, when encountering the 40K monsters from the Duch or ESC fleets, the 12x11" ship should run for it. That's the cost of the ten thousand tonnes difference in displacement ...

Borys

I like my cruiser kill concept better...

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=673.msg26050#msg26050

Yah my ships have paper thin armor but they are even faster and 10,000 tons light displacement smaller in size. 30K is just too big for such weak main guns, IMHO of course.

Michael

How about Gloire III - but 8 x 340mm and 12" Belt abreast Mags -  9" for Machinery

  I think same cost and more effective all-round

I guess I'm missing it. Why are these big ships better than the ~15,000 or 16,000 ton super cruiser/light battlecruiser type ships already under construction or plying the seas?

Is it just an escalation? Let's design something that can kill (for instance) a 32 knot 8x9.2" armed ship?

It's a series of paper concepts. Nothing more.

To explain a bit more the 8 x 340mm suggestion:

I'm thinking that ideally a BC should be good in 3 key roles:

1. Heavy Fleet Scout
2. Long Range Power Projection - Open Ocean/Colonial Waters incl vs Larger Raiders
3. Fast Heavy Support to Light Forces

For all 3 roles - a 29k tonner is already very superior to 9"/10" gun ships -= they had better make, way if they can

Against 11"/12" - gunned opponents - it's a closer call ...

But taking the Iberian Large ACs as a benchmark - from memory I think - 25k tons, 8 x 12" 12" belt 27 knots

    30 knots gives good advantage
    340mm gives good advantage (and 8 guns is good for FC)

   12" Belt angled at 10/12 degrees abreast Mags - seems a minimum vs. their 12" guns

    Although might get some useful hits at longer range - need to close at some point to more effective range to get more hits - and you want opponent at risk of going 'Kaboom' not yourself  ;D

Given that the 2 Mondedors can't be everywhere - Gloire III looks good to me


Guinness - no one would even dream of 'whacking' the Wheelers - they're just too pretty .... (besides 32+ knots is too expensive vs. other Reqmts)

Quote from: Guinness on October 14, 2009, 07:40:22 AM
Yikes. I don't think 12x275mm on almost 29,000 tons is a respectable armament.

The Germans tought otherwise with 3 main guns less on a lot heavier ship.

The Scharnhorst&Gneisenau were in many ways a compromise - one of the reasons for the armament was that the triple 28cm was already in production. The original idea was for 3x2x35cm, I believe.
And were faster, too.
And better armoured as well ...

Borys

And 16 year younger. With engines that were 5 years advanced to the periode- unfortunatly, tempramental.

And not that much faster, and with way worse seakeeping.

Your Gloire III is a well balanced cruiser.
Interresting to see what she made near a squadron or alone as a raider.

S & G are other history  & other period...


;)

Do you mean the 2T3 380mm or the 4T3 275mm version?

QuoteDo you mean the 2T3 380mm or the 4T3 275mm version?

2 concepts are interresting but different in tactical use.

- 2T3x380 or (3T2x380), could help seriously BBs to do the work.
- 4T3x275 are better to engage fast cruisers.

That what you choose... but not neccessary that the futur n verse history choose  :D  :D  :D


Jef  ;)

Half the weight,  as fast as ever and probably ugly as hell.

QuoteJR Ducable, French Large Light Armored cruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   14.999 t light; 15.804 t standard; 18.226 t normal; 20.164 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   626,64 ft / 623,36 ft x 75,46 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   191,00 m / 190,00 m x 23,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x3 guns), 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5.086 lbs / 2.307 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   380,25 ft / 115,90 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5,00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 95.399 shp / 71.168 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.359 tons

Complement:
   783 - 1.019

Cost:
   £3,057 million / $12,228 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 602 tons, 3,3%
   Armour: 3.344 tons, 18,3%
      - Belts: 1.370 tons, 7,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 722 tons, 4,0%
      - Armour Deck: 1.177 tons, 6,5%
      - Conning Tower: 75 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 3.554 tons, 19,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.148 tons, 39,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.227 tons, 17,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21.763 lbs / 9.872 Kg = 34,3 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,78
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,517
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,26 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Mid (60%):      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Quarterdeck (17%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Stern:      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,08 ft / 6,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172,7%
   Waterplane Area: 31.824 Square feet or 2.957 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 701 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,79
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
25tons Long range marconi
25 ton ERADe
25 ton Crew comfort
25 ton not assigned

It's French.  We assume it's ugly as hell unless advised otherwise.

Now dazzlepaint it.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 16, 2009, 06:36:32 AM
It's French.  We assume it's ugly as hell unless advised otherwise.

Quote from: maddox on October 16, 2009, 06:58:47 AM
Now dazzlepaint it.

For the new guys on board - N-verse France continues the design phylosphy which gifted the world with the following atrocities errr "striking looking" ships ...
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1400.0

Thanks Borys, I'd ALMOST forgotten Depuy De Lome..dammit...

Such nice , well worked out succesfull ships.

Just wait till the French master the art of non-Euclidian geometry...

Didn't we already?

I've viewed the pictures and retained my sanity, so I think you have not.

The plan is working.... ;)


But, is JR worth being build?

As a raider/counter-raider, perhaps.

I would go 3x2 instead of 2x3... just so I don't feel obligated to make a song called "Sink the Ducable".
France has triple 10.83''?

Yes, since 1907, Gloire II (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1628.msg20236#msg20236) carries those.

And that would look more structured. May I suggest a ship with 6 10.83'' in twin turrets?

If he did that, he'd just be building an Arquero...

Hides Transylvania redesign in corner... hey maddox, will you do it?

3 Twin turrets.

Me no like.

QuoteJR Ducable, French Light large armored cruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   15.000 t light; 15.806 t standard; 18.228 t normal; 20.166 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   626,64 ft / 623,36 ft x 75,46 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   191,00 m / 190,00 m x 23,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (3x2 guns), 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5.086 lbs / 2.307 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   374,02 ft / 114,00 m   14,50 ft / 4,42 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 92% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5,00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 95.408 shp / 71.175 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.360 tons

Complement:
   783 - 1.019

Cost:
   £3,057 million / $12,229 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 602 tons, 3,3%
   Armour: 3.482 tons, 19,1%
      - Belts: 1.400 tons, 7,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 830 tons, 4,6%
      - Armour Deck: 1.178 tons, 6,5%
      - Conning Tower: 75 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 3.555 tons, 19,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.011 tons, 38,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.228 tons, 17,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21.866 lbs / 9.918 Kg = 34,5 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 16,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,517
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,26 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Mid (60%):      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Quarterdeck (18%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Stern:      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,08 ft / 6,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172,7%
   Waterplane Area: 31.826 Square feet or 2.957 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 688 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,94
      - Longitudinal: 1,67
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

250 ton FC
25tons Long range marconi
25 ton ERADe
25 ton Crew comfort
25 ton not assigned

Try it with a long raised deck (60-70% mid break) and an AXY setup.. not so good for forward fire, better than AQY for all around fire, and better stability then ABY because the X turret isn't "raised" by SS thought process because of the extended deck. Think HMS Tiger w/ 3 turrets.

3 triple turrets, then?

Ahoj!
Some countries do not use triples. France is one of them.
God frowns down on turrets with odd number of barrels ...
Borys

But the Iowa was a very lucky ship.  :D

I don't like quads, but triples are amazing.

Quote from: TexanCowboy on October 17, 2009, 02:58:17 PM
But the Iowa was a very lucky ship.  :D

I don't like quads, but triples are amazing.

Missouri however, ran hard aground :)

I find I really prefer twins, tolerate triples, and generally frown on quads.
I know they are "supposed" to be more efficient, but they have several hidden negatives.

However, I have a couple draft quad turreted ships in Bavaria's possible ships folder. There's just a fair bit of development to get there.

Cheap, fast, agile, and a rain of steel.

QuoteDuquesne, French Heavy Cruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   17.499 t light; 18.307 t standard; 20.446 t normal; 22.157 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   674,21 ft / 670,93 ft x 82,02 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
   205,50 m / 204,50 m x 25,00 m  x 8,50 m

Armament:
      8 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (3 mounts), 705,48lbs / 320,00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      2 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 6.949 lbs / 3.152 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   389,14 ft / 118,61 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 89% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      7,00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -
   5th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 97.489 shp / 72.727 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 8.525nm at 15,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.849 tons

Complement:
   854 - 1.111

Cost:
   £3,233 million / $12,931 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 782 tons, 3,8%
   Armour: 4.080 tons, 20,0%
      - Belts: 1.471 tons, 7,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.179 tons, 5,8%
      - Armour Deck: 1.317 tons, 6,4%
      - Conning Tower: 113 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 3.632 tons, 17,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.605 tons, 42,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.947 tons, 14,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25.555 lbs / 11.592 Kg = 40,3 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 4,3 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 16,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,77
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,466
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,18 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25,90 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   12,47 ft / 3,80 m (22,97 ft / 7,00 m before break)
      - Stern:      12,47 ft / 3,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,15 ft / 6,45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 182,3%
   Waterplane Area: 35.585 Square feet or 3.306 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 775 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,60
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

2 T3 275 and 1 T2 275 superfing

400 tons Misc Weight
250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 ton Long range Marconi
50 ton Commanders quarters
50 ton crew comfort

Quote from: maddox on November 25, 2009, 01:19:54 PM
Cheap, fast, agile, and a rain of steel.

Oh to be French, were 17.5k Cruisers are CHEAP.

Compared to Montmedie Kaiser Sam, compared to Montmedie.

QuoteI don't like quads, but triples are amazing.

If your CSA is like that as well then I expect the CSA-Japan relations to be as good as new in no time. :D

QuoteMissouri however, ran hard aground :)

And what about Wisconsin's collision with Eaton?
And Iowa's turret explosion in 1989?
And what of Illinois and Kentucky? They never even made it to the end of construction.

Did anything bad happen to the New Jersey? If not then that one is the only lucky ship of the Iowa class. :)

But quads are awesome! Although I don't really like how wide the beam has to be as a result.

<==== Member of the Anti Main Gun Quad Mount Society ;D

<===== Member of the Triples are awesome, Twins are alright, and Quads are ok if they are arranged in a 24 gun ship club.

<===== Member of the Fillopino Powder Keg club.  ;D

Anything is good, so long as I have enough of them.  But I'm partial to twins and quads if only because they work better for me in MSPaint.

<===== Member of Twins for anything larger than 10" and triples are OK for smaller, Quads are the Devil Club.