I am thinking about building another set of 250mm armed armored cruisers in 1916. Mission isn't to take on the Battle Cruisers but to function as a protected / light cruiser killer.
I don't like her stability though so I will attempt a redesign. I want to keep the size down to a type 2 slip and displacement as low as possible.
Any thoughts?
QuoteAC-1916, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
15,490 t light; 16,153 t standard; 18,161 t normal; 19,767 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
562.37 ft / 557.74 ft x 72.18 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
171.41 m / 170.00 m x 22.00 m x 8.75 m
Armament:
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns in single mounts, 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,153 lbs / 2,337 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 10.07 ft / 3.07 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 98.43 ft / 30.00 m 10.07 ft / 3.07 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 362.53 ft / 110.50 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 127 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 362.53 ft / 110.50 m 25.59 ft / 7.80 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,001 shp / 59,681 Kw = 28.25 kts
Range 18,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,614 tons
Complement:
781 - 1,016
Cost:
£2.503 million / $10.013 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 644 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 5,060 tons, 27.9 %
- Belts: 1,545 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 676 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 1,208 tons, 6.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,535 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 17.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,254 tons, 34.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,671 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 342 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,951 lbs / 9,503 Kg = 43.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m (21.33 ft / 6.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 22.99 ft / 7.01 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.3 %
Waterplane Area: 28,095 Square feet or 2,610 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 663 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.89
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Range @ 12 knots 12,400 nm
Range @ 15 knots 7,400 nm
Range @ 20 knots 3,600 nm
Range @ 28.25 knots 1,300 nm
If you are out to kill light cruiser I think it would be a good idea to reduce protection to get more speed.
I would also drop the torpedo bulkhead; the protective zones would be so small that I doubt it would do much good. I also suspect that the difference in underwater survivability would be quite marginal (would guess 2-2,5 without the TB). The weight saved could be used for more speed and/or more extensive armour.
I am limited to 1912 engine tech till I figure 1918 when I can get the next step so 80,000 shp is the max engine power I can work with.
I agree that the torpedo bulkhead is odds are going to be limited use and I am more than likely going to ditch it in a redesign. My main worry is I am attempting to improve the designs stability.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on December 01, 2008, 05:39:17 AM
I agree that the torpedo bulkhead is odds are going to be limited use and I am more than likely going to ditch it in a redesign. My main worry is I am attempting to improve the designs stability.
Michael
Would mounting the guns in twin turrets rather the singles help? :)
That would make too much sense...
Michael
OK I fixed the turrets and deleted the torpedo belt. I put the extra structure into more range.
QuoteAC-1916, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
14,744 t light; 15,407 t standard; 18,161 t normal; 20,363 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
562.37 ft / 557.74 ft x 72.18 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
171.41 m / 170.00 m x 22.00 m x 8.75 m
Armament:
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,153 lbs / 2,337 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 362.53 ft / 110.50 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 195.18 ft / 59.49 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 362.53 ft / 110.50 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,001 shp / 59,681 Kw = 28.25 kts
Range 25,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,956 tons
Complement:
781 - 1,016
Cost:
£2.461 million / $9.842 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 644 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 4,076 tons, 22.4 %
- Belts: 1,417 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,028 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,535 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 17.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,295 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,416 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 540 tons, 3.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,512 lbs / 9,304 Kg = 43.0 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m (20.51 ft / 6.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 22.52 ft / 6.86 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28,095 Square feet or 2,610 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 671 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Range @ 12 knots 17,000 nm
Range @ 15 knots 10,200 nm
Range @ 20 knots 4,900 nm
Range @ 28.25 knots 1,840 nm
A kind of short VDT ;)
Quote171.41 m / 170.00
ol inf. to 170 for type2
QuoteRange 25,000nm at 10.00 kts
Great range .
IMO, decrease range & increase slightly the belt protections
QuoteSeaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
1.20 is certainly possible (too great free board ?)
;)
It was my understanding that its waterline length for slipways and drydocks.
Belt armor is to defend against lighter weapons. There isn't anything in the 250mm L50 class to judge against on navweaps. Otherwise I figure 165mm armor should provide protection vs. 170mm and smaller weapons from any battle range.
If I increase freebord it costs me stability. 27 knots would be good for the 1.2 seakeeping.
Michael
Quote from: Jefgte on December 01, 2008, 06:20:44 AM
1.20 is certainly possible (too great free board ?)
Would be wasteful to try and get, she is a more then good enogh seaboat as she is.
Overall length counts. It's in the rules somewhere ...
For a 250/L50 - maybe compare it with
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_10-45_M1908.htm
or
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_10-45_mk6-7.htm
Borys
QuoteOverall length counts. It's in the rules somewhere ...
Weill if that's the case, a slip should not be too much of a problem, but a dock is something different.
QuoteIf I increase freebord
not increase... but decrease
lenght 170m max for type 2 DD ...
If not, impossible to close the doors :D :D :D
;)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2965.msg30705#msg30705
QuoteA ship may be built in either a slipway or drydock. The ship's overall length - not waterline length - determines the minimum size of slip or dock necessary for the task. A slip or dock can only build one warship at a time.
Quote from: Borys on December 01, 2008, 06:54:46 AM
For a 250/L50 - maybe compare it with
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_10-45_M1908.htm
or
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_10-45_mk6-7.htm
Borys
The problem is thats near point blank range... 3,000 yards. I have the NaB program but I haven't used it in so long I can't fill in the data. What I wonder is what IZ I would have vs. a 250mm 500lb AP shell? I suspect that I should be good from 8 or 10K out which is al I want.
Michael
Quote from: Borys on December 01, 2008, 07:10:34 AM
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2965.msg30705#msg30705
QuoteA ship may be built in either a slipway or drydock. The ship's overall length - not waterline length - determines the minimum size of slip or dock necessary for the task. A slip or dock can only build one warship at a time.
What a pain in the ass...
QuoteAC-1916c, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
14,615 t light; 15,275 t standard; 18,010 t normal; 20,198 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.74 ft / 553.12 ft x 72.18 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 168.59 m x 22.00 m x 8.75 m
Armament:
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,153 lbs / 2,337 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 359.51 ft / 109.58 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 193.57 ft / 59.00 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 359.51 ft / 109.58 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 28.25 kts
Range 25,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,923 tons
Complement:
776 - 1,010
Cost:
£2.453 million / $9.813 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 644 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 4,052 tons, 22.5 %
- Belts: 1,406 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,028 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,522 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 96 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 17.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,230 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,395 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 2.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,175 lbs / 9,151 Kg = 42.3 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.66 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.52 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m (20.51 ft / 6.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 22.52 ft / 6.86 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,862 Square feet or 2,588 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 670 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Range @ 12 knots 17,000 nm
Range @ 15 knots 10,200 nm
Range @ 20 knots 4,900 nm
Range @ 28.25 knots 1,840 nm
I was one of the forces behind the "overall lenght" rule :)
Borys
Quote from: Borys on December 01, 2008, 08:07:15 AM
I was one of the forces behind the "overall lenght" rule :)
Borys
A silly rule IMO, as all it does is makes people build ship with bulbus bow (to get the above water looks one want).
A very silly rule... I hate things that force me to jump between tabs...
Michael
IMO
I decrease the deck armor (75) & increase the armor of the 150mm guns from 25 to 50mm.
Then , you have an uniform 50mm protection (splinters) on side.
You coul adjust the displacement to 14600t.
;)
QuoteI was one of the forces behind the "overall lenght" rule :)
Like I said, the dock is understandable as it is enclosed. For the slip it's ridiculous as it is open.
... of course it is extremely stupid to build a ship that fits on the Type 3 slip but due to its overall length does not fit in the dock for repairs and reconstructions. :D
Yes Walter, close the drydock doors could be useful...
:D :D :D
Quote from: Jefgte on December 01, 2008, 08:21:03 AM
IMO
I decrease the deck armor (75) & increase the armor of the 150mm guns from 25 to 50mm.
Then , you have an uniform 50mm protection (splinters) on side.
I am using the CL tech for my secondaries... So I am limited to 1" splinter shields. Otherwise I would. I could reduce the BC to .5495 and loose 3 misc tons to get the 14,600 light displacement.
QuoteLight Cruiser Architecture
1880 Baseline(0): guns in single mounts or casemates, on side/centerline
1900 Advanced(+1): ammunition hoists, deck torpedo armament, superfiring mounts
1910 Cutting Edge (+5): twin gun mounts
1920: turrets and barbettes
Twin gun mounts requires hoists, and they are power operated. Their armor is limited to splinter protection - 1".
Battleship Architecture is not valid for guns 6.5" and smaller. To have armored turrets with small guns, this technology is required.
With a 1916 lay-down you could order new generation turbines from Gran Colombia.
I think the range is excessive, but that's me.
It is excessive and eats up way too much hull strength.
CL rules for a 14600t AC ?
For the secondaries.
QuoteWith a 1916 lay-down you could order new generation turbines from Gran Colombia
LD1916
Engine 1917
One year to digest GC techno
I was thinking in terms of building and exporting the turbines immediately, while Iberia digests the tech to build more.
I was afraid of that... Hull is already pushed to the max in effect. I would have to do a major redesign to say push things to 30 knots let alone anything faster. Hmmm... Design would end up going up another 2 or 3K tons to restore stability and seakeeping.
A question what is the SHP per shaft limit for 1916 engine tech?
You don't have to up-engine her.
I've no idea what the previous Mods had in mind when drafting the tech. 30,000 shp is a safe bet.
I know... All things have a cost. Here is the faster version. So 1.75 knots of top speed costs 2,200 light tons. I do like speed... Something to think about.
Michael
QuoteAC-1916d, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
16,800 t light; 17,493 t standard; 19,647 t normal; 21,371 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
558.90 ft / 553.12 ft x 78.74 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
170.35 m / 168.59 m x 24.00 m x 8.75 m
Armament:
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,153 lbs / 2,337 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 192.19 ft / 58.58 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 110,000 shp / 82,060 Kw = 30.02 kts
Range 21,940nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,878 tons
Complement:
829 - 1,078
Cost:
£2.786 million / $11.146 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 644 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 4,341 tons, 22.1 %
- Belts: 1,420 tons, 7.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,159 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,660 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 102 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,098 tons, 20.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,207 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,847 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 510 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,378 lbs / 10,151 Kg = 46.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.02 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.52 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 30.35 ft / 9.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.71 ft / 8.75 m (24.61 ft / 7.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 27.10 ft / 8.26 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 186.2 %
Waterplane Area: 30,395 Square feet or 2,824 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 702 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.62
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Range @ 10 knots 21,940 nm
Range @ 12 knots 14,500 nm
Range @ 15 knots 8,700 nm
Range @ 20 knots 4,200 nm
Range @ 30.02 knots 1,250 nm
If I ignore my self limit of using only a type 2 slipway...
QuoteAC-1916e, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 18,719 t standard; 20,977 t normal; 22,783 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
661.52 ft / 656.17 ft x 72.18 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
201.63 m / 200.00 m x 22.00 m x 8.75 m
Armament:
8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,153 lbs / 2,337 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 229.63 ft / 69.99 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,000 shp / 89,520 Kw = 31.27 kts
Range 21,120nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,064 tons
Complement:
870 - 1,132
Cost:
£2.940 million / $11.762 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 644 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 4,637 tons, 22.1 %
- Belts: 1,642 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,099 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,789 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,678 tons, 36.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,977 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 570 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,164 lbs / 10,507 Kg = 48.6 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.35 ft / 9.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.89 ft / 8.50 m (21.33 ft / 6.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.92 ft / 7.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.7 %
Waterplane Area: 32,745 Square feet or 3,042 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 676 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.75
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Range @ 10 knots 21,120 nm
Range @ 12 knots 14,000 nm
Range @ 15 knots 8,600 nm
Range @ 20 knots 4,400 nm
Range @ 31.26 knots 1,250 nm
Maybe you can arm that vessel with 8x11", 8x12" even, if you ditch the 15cm guns?
Borys
Quote from: Borys on December 01, 2008, 11:55:05 AM
Maybe you can arm that vessel with 8x11", 8x12" even, if you ditch the 15cm guns?
Borys
If I ditch all the 150's, all the misc weigh cut the deck to 50mm I am still short on stability. The objective here was to build a cruiser killer and for that mission only 250mm weapons are needed. The question is it worth building at all? I have a long list of things to do in 1916 and I can't afford to lay down 2 DN's and 2 full sized BC's. So I am left with attempting a large cruiser on a budget as I need 2 more DN' while my cruiser situation is actually no longer desperate.
Michael
You can build three of these for two of your latest design.
Borys
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916
Displacement:
13 305 t light; 13 934 t standard; 14 999 t normal; 15 851 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
640,00 ft / 640,00 ft x 70,00 ft x 21,00 ft (normal load)
195,07 m / 195,07 m x 21,34 m x 6,40 m
Armament:
6 - 9,84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476,75lbs / 216,25kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
2 - 9,84" / 250 mm guns (1x2 guns), 476,75lbs / 216,25kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
2 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 0,98lbs / 0,44kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4 072 lbs / 1 847 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,25" / 108 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 240,00 ft / 73,15 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m
Upper: 2,75" / 70 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 96% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5,00" / 127 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 3,00" / 76 mm
2nd: 5,00" / 127 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 4,25" / 108 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - 1,00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 73 856 shp / 55 096 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 917 tons
Complement:
676 - 880
Cost:
£2,092 million / $8,368 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 509 tons, 3,4%
Armour: 3 504 tons, 23,4%
- Belts: 1 790 tons, 11,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 496 tons, 3,3%
- Armour Deck: 1 166 tons, 7,8%
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0,3%
Machinery: 2 752 tons, 18,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 970 tons, 39,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 694 tons, 11,3%
Miscellaneous weights: 570 tons, 3,8%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18 064 lbs / 8 194 Kg = 37,9 x 9,8 " / 250 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 3,5 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 15,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,558
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Forecastle (20%): 24,00 ft / 7,32 m
- Mid (46%): 24,00 ft / 7,32 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
- Stern: 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
- Average freeboard: 20,16 ft / 6,14 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170,4%
Waterplane Area: 31 501 Square feet or 2 927 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 621 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,18
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
2.7 to 2 actually. Its a tin clad... that armor belt is dam thin and I would be worried about another mid sized cruiser just knocking turrets out one after another. Also there is a 2 knot difference so thats 2K displacement right there. I am NOT going to build a tin clad. I have horrible picture of one of the 7.5" armed designs out there mission killing it...
Michael
Quote from: miketr on December 01, 2008, 12:01:15 PM
If I ditch all the 150's, all the misc weigh cut the deck to 50mm I am still short on stability. The objective here was to build a cruiser killer and for that mission only 250mm weapons are needed. The question is it worth building at all? I have a long list of things to do in 1916 and I can't afford to lay down 2 DN's and 2 full sized BC's. So I am left with attempting a large cruiser on a budget as I need 2 more DN' while my cruiser situation is actually no longer desperate.
Given her size is would say that it is not worth it, while she is efficient against <6 000 ton cruisers, her armament is lacking efficiency against larger ships, making her main asset being her speed. And if the speed is the main usefull thing, a much smaller (and cheaper) ship will do just as well.
That said it no not think this kind of ship can be very usefull, just that they need firepower to be able to clobber the not insignificant number of ships that are protected against 25 cm gunfire.
I could always build something like this... My problem is my issue with ships not able to take hits from their own guns. Also I don't much care for the three turret designs, as if you loose a turret your long range gunnery becomes a problem for spotting.
Thanks for the thought Korpen...
QuoteAC-1916f, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
18,000 t light; 18,759 t standard; 20,977 t normal; 22,751 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
661.52 ft / 656.17 ft x 72.18 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
201.63 m / 200.00 m x 22.00 m x 8.75 m
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,533 lbs / 2,963 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 429.79 ft / 131.00 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 226.38 ft / 69.00 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 429.79 ft / 131.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,000 shp / 89,520 Kw = 31.27 kts
Range 20,730nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,993 tons
Complement:
870 - 1,132
Cost:
£3.178 million / $12.711 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 817 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 4,004 tons, 19.1 %
- Belts: 1,649 tons, 7.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,056 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,192 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,119 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,977 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 590 tons, 2.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,718 lbs / 9,397 Kg = 23.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.97
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.35 ft / 9.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.89 ft / 8.50 m (21.33 ft / 6.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.92 ft / 7.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.7 %
Waterplane Area: 32,745 Square feet or 3,042 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 715 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Now for ABOUT the same displacement I can build two of these....
QuotePC-1916 8.8Ka, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
8,722 t light; 9,036 t standard; 9,807 t normal; 10,424 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
590.55 ft / 590.55 ft x 59.06 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
180.00 m / 180.00 m x 18.00 m x 6.00 m
Armament:
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,163 lbs / 528 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 175
12 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 479.00 ft / 146.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 125 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm - 2.95" / 75 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 32.60 kts
Range 11,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,388 tons
Complement:
492 - 640
Cost:
£1.468 million / $5.870 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 145 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 1,501 tons, 15.3 %
- Belts: 561 tons, 5.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 55 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 846 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 39 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,353 tons, 34.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,548 tons, 36.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,085 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 175 tons, 1.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,328 lbs / 3,778 Kg = 80.9 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m (18.04 ft / 5.50 m before break)
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.69 ft / 5.70 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.1 %
Waterplane Area: 23,236 Square feet or 2,159 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 470 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Cruiser FC 100 tons, Long range radio 25 tons, Twelve 20" torpedos (2x3) 12 tons and 38 tons construction reserve
I'd build the smaller ships. But cut down speed to 31 knots.
Borys
Quote from: miketr on December 11, 2008, 07:53:58 AM
I could always build something like this... My problem is my issue with ships not able to take hits from their own guns.
Never quite been able to see the logic of that one, the important must surely be the enemy guns?
QuoteAlso I don't much care for the three turret designs, as if you loose a turret your long range gunnery becomes a problem for spotting.
True, but i think that risk is worth it. And in engaging light cruisers the 30cm guns have the advantage of being powerful enough to use SAP shells instead of APC, giving the shells about twice the payload.
That said, it should be possible to get 8 x 305mm guns on that ships without scarifying speed, or vertical protection. You got an awful lot of misc weight, I would slash at least 200to, that would do much to allow a forth turret.
Also on your design the armour does not cover the magazines.
I think i would go for the larger design, it is a more eggs in the same basket, yes, but the greater numbers of missions she can undertake would be worth it IMO.
Think it would be a good idea to give both types some capacity for laying mines, their speed and range makes them usefull for offensive mining.
Just something similar i have been working on to show what i mean:
QuoteSL-15, Netherlands Sloop laid down 1916
Displacement:
18 000 t light; 19 023 t standard; 20 683 t normal; 22 011 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
707,68 ft / 707,68 ft x 72,83 ft x 26,57 ft (normal load)
215,70 m / 215,70 m x 22,20 m x 8,10 m
Armament:
8 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 903,90lbs / 410,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 61,73lbs / 28,00kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 8 219 lbs / 3 728 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6,30" / 160 mm 479,00 ft / 146,00 m 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8,46" / 215 mm 4,33" / 110 mm 6,69" / 170 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - 1,97" / 50 mm
- Armour deck: 1,57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 9,06" / 230 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 113 101 shp / 84 373 Kw = 31,20 kts
Range 5 546nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 989 tons
Complement:
862 - 1 121
Cost:
£3,331 million / $13,325 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 971 tons, 4,7 %
Armour: 4 378 tons, 21,2 %
- Belts: 2 055 tons, 9,9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 1 149 tons, 5,6 %
- Armour Deck: 1 027 tons, 5,0 %
- Conning Tower: 147 tons, 0,7 %
Machinery: 4 214 tons, 20,4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 088 tons, 39,1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 683 tons, 13,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 349 tons, 1,7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19 075 lbs / 8 652 Kg = 22,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
Roll period: 15,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0,528
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24,93 ft / 7,60 m (19,69 ft / 6,00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Stern: 21,98 ft / 6,70 m
- Average freeboard: 20,07 ft / 6,12 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104,0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135,3 %
Waterplane Area: 35 256 Square feet or 3 275 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,16
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
For comparison her range is 15 000nm at 10 kts
Mike, with your harbors all over the map, are you sure you need 20 000nm range?
For a raider your AC is too big & ...expensive
IMO
reduce the range & increase the protection.
;)
Borys: Why slower?
Korpen: I noticed the armor issue; it's because I didn't update the armor design from the 250mm gun version. I have version on my HDD that has the extra 6 meters of length. If I have only 200 misc tons then I don't have displacement for FC thats a 250 ton hit right there. I agree it has too much misc weight; odds are a final design would have more ammo or secondaries.
As to your design it has 10mm less deck and an even higher beam to length ratio than my own design.
As to gunnery... The take own main guns is in theory a measure of the type of hits she can take in turn in my own mind. Going with the 12" weapons would require a main belt at least 2" thicker.
Jefgte: Actually as part of the 1916 program is going to see me build some more bases in Brazil because I don't have enough ports in the right places. Also I time and time again order ships to do sprint runs from or two the Philippines and thats a long way to go. Global missions requires global range; IMHO.
I will attempt to refine the design a little tonight with peoples thoughts.
All this is a refinement of the base design to push the speed to the max, got a 1/3 of a knot more.
Looking over the design to get the seakeeping, etc I want and 8 12" would require another 2K to 3K.
Michael
QuoteAC-1916g, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
18,001 t light; 18,754 t standard; 20,901 t normal; 22,618 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
694.33 ft / 688.98 ft x 72.51 ft x 28.22 ft (normal load)
211.63 m / 210.00 m x 22.10 m x 8.60 m
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,481 lbs / 2,940 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 463.42 ft / 141.25 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 225.56 ft / 68.75 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 463.42 ft / 141.25 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,001 shp / 89,521 Kw = 31.55 kts
Range 19,760nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,864 tons
Complement:
868 - 1,129
Cost:
£3.169 million / $12.675 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 810 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 4,114 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 1,750 tons, 8.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,025 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,233 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,290 tons, 39.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,900 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 1.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,510 lbs / 9,757 Kg = 24.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.35 ft / 9.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.71 ft / 8.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.07 ft / 8.25 m (20.51 ft / 6.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.22 ft / 7.38 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.1 %
Waterplane Area: 33,870 Square feet or 3,147 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 718 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.58
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I suggested cutting that c.1,5 knot due to its cost.
Borys
I decided to reduce my range a bit and add some armor. Just so light AP rounds don't just punch through the ends and risk slowing the ship down...
QuoteAC-1916h, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
18,500 t light; 19,253 t standard; 20,901 t normal; 22,219 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
694.33 ft / 688.98 ft x 72.51 ft x 28.22 ft (normal load)
211.63 m / 210.00 m x 22.10 m x 8.60 m
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,481 lbs / 2,940 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 463.42 ft / 141.25 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 225.56 ft / 68.75 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 463.42 ft / 141.25 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,001 shp / 89,521 Kw = 31.55 kts
Range 14,930nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,965 tons
Complement:
868 - 1,129
Cost:
£3.197 million / $12.790 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 810 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 4,562 tons, 21.8 %
- Belts: 2,174 tons, 10.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,048 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,233 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,382 tons, 40.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,401 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,534 lbs / 9,767 Kg = 24.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.35 ft / 9.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.71 ft / 8.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.07 ft / 8.25 m (20.51 ft / 6.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.22 ft / 7.38 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.1 %
Waterplane Area: 33,870 Square feet or 3,147 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 726 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
14930
6300@15 knots
3300@ 20 knots
950 @ 31.5 knots
Quote from: miketr on February 06, 2009, 08:07:37 PM
I decided to reduce my range a bit and add some armor. Just so light AP rounds don't just punch through the ends and risk slowing the ship down...
AC-1916h, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
18,500 t light; 19,253 t standard; 20,901 t normal; 22,219 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
694.33 ft / 688.98 ft x 72.51 ft x 28.22 ft (normal load)
211.63 m / 210.00 m x 22.10 m x 8.60 m
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,481 lbs / 2,940 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 463.42 ft / 141.25 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 225.56 ft / 68.75 m 10.20 ft / 3.11 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 463.42 ft / 141.25 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm
Given her size I think it would be a good idea to make her main belt a bit more extensive. With a belt just 1,5m below the water line the risk of exposure from wave motion is not insignificant, as well as the risk of splinters from near misses. Think a bit over 4m should be enough, and given the roe of the ship I would be willing to thin the belt or the deck armour to achieve it. Would probably be willing to give up some deck armour first as even 4cm should be enough to protect against most armoured cruiser firs (up to 25cm guns) out to around 14-15km.
QuoteMachinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,001 shp / 89,521 Kw = 31.55 kts
Range 14,930nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,965 tons
- Average freeboard: 24.22 ft / 7.38 m
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Lower freeboard, get more speed? :)
Over all I quite like her, her firepower gives her the ability to dominate against pretty much all armoured, protect and light cruisers. Her speed and range makes her a usefull fleet scout as she would be able to avoid an engagement under if she so choose under most conditions
Thanks for the insiteful comments. The design is pushed right now with very little room left to push it more without a change in over all size. As any change to armor just results in stability / steediness issues. When I get around to a half sister I will attempt to make the changes then. Will go for a slightly longer hull or something.
Michael