Due to the increasing size and speed of foreign cruisers the Marshals of the Mark have issued for two new vessels to be laid down in 1906 to join the Walda in the slips.
First is the projected 1905 Combat Cruiser Valandil. With as many 9 inch guns at the previous Narmacil-class cruiser but with more turrets allowing for more guns to be brought to bare either broadside, and with a speed estimated to be at least 24 knots, this cruiser should be able to keep up and defeat all but the fastest foreign cruisers of the world. (The hope is that the oil boiler tech will be ready, otherwise she'll be coal only and have reduced range).
Valandil
(possible second ship)
Rohan Combat Cruiser laid down 1905 (Engine 1910)
Displacement:
13,245 t light; 13,991 t standard; 15,500 t normal; 16,645 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 73.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 22.25 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
8 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns (4x2 guns), 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns in single mounts, 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1905 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,932 lbs / 2,237 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46,000 shp / 34,316 Kw = 24.85 kts
Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,717 tons)
Complement:
693 - 902
Cost:
£1.263 million / $5.052 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 617 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 5,148 tons, 33.2 %
- Belts: 2,643 tons, 17.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,385 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,000 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 121 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,010 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,371 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,255 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,120 lbs / 9,580 Kg = 57.9 x 9.0 " / 229 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.595
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 20.37 ft / 6.21 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.0 %
Waterplane Area: 27,022 Square feet or 2,510 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 638 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Second vessel laid down is to compliment the Arcadia-class Battleships. A faster, lighter armored battleship with 12 inch guns in triple turrets like the Arcadia, but with the superimposed design of the Freawines. The Snowmane-class will be called a Battle Cruiser and will have over 24 knot speeds with turbine powered engines. Snowmane is not designed for oil boilers but will stay with coal power to be reliable in the years to come. (If the tech works the next class will have oil fired boilers). The Snowmane is expected to be able to outfight anything in the sea short of an extremely modern battleship, and be able to outrun any of them.
Snowmane
(Two others probably)
Rohan Battle Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
15,427 t light; 16,116 t standard; 18,000 t normal; 19,435 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
545.00 ft / 545.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
166.12 m / 166.12 m x 24.99 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
2 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,327 lbs / 3,777 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 70
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 355.00 ft / 108.20 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 190.00 ft / 57.91 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 355.00 ft / 108.20 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46,000 shp / 34,316 Kw = 24.33 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,392 tons)
Complement:
776 - 1,010
Cost:
£1.736 million / $6.945 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,041 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 5,077 tons, 28.2 %
- Belts: 2,457 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,320 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,167 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 133 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,300 tons, 12.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,910 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,573 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,291 lbs / 9,204 Kg = 23.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.587
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.67 ft / 5.39 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.4 %
Waterplane Area: 31,530 Square feet or 2,929 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 761 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Boy, I hope none of these ships ever cross my bows in a bad mood... that's some serious firepower and speed. Nothing short of a battleship could stand up to either of these.
Rohan's certainly on the leading edge of naval tech these days.
Ithekro: why the new triple 12" for Snowmane, as opposed to the twin 14" featured in the most recent battleships?
Well I have these relatively new 12 inch guns and a turret design already. Also I figure that the rate of fire from nine guns will earn more hits than six 14 inch guns. At the ranges these things are likely to engage at, the difference in damage and armor penetration isn't going to be all that great, plus the 14 inch guns would probably over penetrate armored cruiser armor. (This was a problem I found in a close in battle between British battlecruisers and German armored cruisers...it would be worse with larger guns as the ships would have to stay farther away to keep the shells to explode inside the cruiser.)
At least it in not quite bleeding edge...not quite as fast as the Invincibles, slightly better firepower...but at this time...no real fire control...big problem. Got spotting tops (cage masts), but not quite director control...at least not yet...maybe before she's finished.
Quote from: Carthaginian on March 21, 2007, 10:58:49 PM
Boy, I hope none of these ships ever cross my bows in a bad mood... that's some serious firepower and speed. Nothing short of a battleship could stand up to either of these.
Thankfully Rohan and the CSA have a good working relationship (ex. the turbine units in the
Floridas). :)
Quote from: swamphen on March 22, 2007, 08:47:12 PM
Quote from: Carthaginian on March 21, 2007, 10:58:49 PM
Boy, I hope none of these ships ever cross my bows in a bad mood... that's some serious firepower and speed. Nothing short of a battleship could stand up to either of these.
Well, the Florida's were scrapped on the ways... I lacked superfiring tech, and was given the option to rebuild as a result. I took it. They'll be redone with domestic units.
However, looking at these ships, I would hope that such a relationship is preserved...
These ladies are crazy-scary.
Thankfully Rohan and the CSA have a good working relationship (ex. the turbine units in the Floridas). :)
And a plan for a possible H2/1906 design: It this too much, or should there be another step between the Freawines and this vessel?
Helm Hammerhand
Rohan Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
21,556 t light; 22,494 t standard; 23,750 t normal; 24,660 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
515.00 ft / 510.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
156.97 m / 155.45 m x 29.26 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,720 lbs / 5,316 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 70
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28,500 shp / 21,261 Kw = 20.06 kts
Range 5,750nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,261 tons)
Complement:
956 - 1,243
Cost:
£2.183 million / $8.730 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,465 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 8,690 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 3,287 tons, 13.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,973 tons, 12.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,180 tons, 9.2 %
- Conning Tower: 250 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,411 tons, 5.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,940 tons, 41.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,194 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,458 lbs / 16,537 Kg = 26.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.39
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.707
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.5 %
Waterplane Area: 39,279 Square feet or 3,649 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 940 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 2.04
- Overall: 1.08
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Nice.
Coments - upper belt too thin - 9-10 inches preferrable.
The secondaries are too small.
Main Gun ammunition stocks very small. Although I've seen some ships with such a small allowance, the norm seems to had been around 110-120. It might depend on how big your battleline is.
As to its appropriatness - similar designs had been revealed by the Russian fleet 3 years ago.
Borys
Borys
QuoteUpper belt too thin - 9-10 inches preferrable.
I was trying for 7-9 but the balancing act kept getting in my way. I didn't want to go really huge, but I might have to to make it work.
QuoteThe secondaries are too small.
Well that is the thing. All I got to work with over 4.5" are old 1880s 6" guns until one gets to the 7.5" and 9" guns. A new 6" gun is probably needed for the future. Now if you want the secondaries to drop from the Freawine's 9" to the 7.5", would that be casemate, single or twin turrets? Or would the 9" go to twin turrets?
QuoteMain Gun ammunition stocks very small. Although I've seen some ships with such a small allowance, the norm seems to had been around 110-120. It might depend on how big your battleline is.
The only source of data I have on that at present is the American predreadnough battleships which seemed to carry 60-70 shells per gun on average.
Dreadnought had 3" secondaries, so I dont see a probloem.
Predreadnoughts with a ROF of 0.5 a minute did not need large magazines. Dreadnoughts with higher ROF had at last 75-80 rounds per gun, usually more. Navweaps.com has some relevant data.
Yes, Dreadnaught did have 3' secondaries. And it was the only ship with such armament, secondaries increasing to 4 inch on next class.
And then to 6 inch - 5 years later.
Borys
Quote from: swamphen on March 28, 2007, 02:31:20 PM
[quoteWell, the Florida's were scrapped on the ways... I lacked superfiring tech, and was given the option to rebuild as a result.
???
Actually the CSA acquired superfiring from Rohan in Q3/04...
[/quote]
Drat... that wasn't listed in my report!
Quote from: swamphen on March 28, 2007, 02:31:20 PM
???
Actually the CSA acquired superfiring from Rohan in Q3/04...
Actually, that deal did not fall through.
Possible follow on to the Freawine-class. This time using imported 6" guns from the Confederate State of America. Also using three sets of turbines (though only the 9,500 shp model) to keep a rough 20 knots force with Freawine and Arcadia classes. (will be delayed until 1907 due to the needs to get Walda and the two other large projects finished in a timely manner).
Helm Hammerhand
Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
21,600 t light; 22,575 t standard; 23,700 t normal; 24,506 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
515.00 ft / 510.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
156.97 m / 155.45 m x 29.26 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1891 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12,591 lbs / 5,711 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 70
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28,500 shp / 21,261 Kw = 20.15 kts
Range 5,750nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,026 tons)
Complement:
954 - 1,241
Cost:
£2.283 million / $9.133 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,590 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 9,250 tons, 39.0 %
- Belts: 3,831 tons, 16.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3,055 tons, 12.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,114 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 250 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,370 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,341 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,100 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,989 lbs / 15,417 Kg = 24.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.678
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1 %
Waterplane Area: 38,084 Square feet or 3,538 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 897 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.96
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Scary. Old guns though.
Borys
Old, but better than my own old 6" guns, some of which are in service still, but are planned to be retired or possibly replaced with these, or the next model...which is hoped to be a quick fire.
Quote from: Ithekro on April 03, 2007, 09:48:30 AM
Old, but better than my own old 6" guns, some of which are in service still, but are planned to be retired or possibly replaced with these, or the next model...which is hoped to be a quick fire.
Why?
The round for a 15cm QF gun is around 2m long and weight around 90kg, and quite tricky to use.
http://www.i19.mil.se/photo.php?id=43975&nid=13953
Picture of a 15,5cm case (And i did my concription service on the gun the fired that round...)
NS has some pretty good new 6" guns in service. If Rohan desires these guns could be provided.
The French 140mm QF guns are among the best in the world. Maybe those can suite the Helm Hammerhand?
Quote from: Korpen on April 03, 2007, 10:16:07 AM
Why?
The round for a 15cm QF gun is around 2m long and weight around 90kg, and quite tricky to use.
http://www.i19.mil.se/photo.php?id=43975&nid=13953
Picture of a 15,5cm case (And i did my concription service on the gun the fired that round...)
Remember, the shell hoists for these guns are going to do away with the most awkward part of firing an artillery piece on land... carrying the round from the box to the gun.
I've never gotten to handle something THAT big *OMFG but it's big*, but I've played with the 120mm rounds from an M1-A2 before. As long as the round is kept proximate to the gun, it's easier to have it in one piece. I'd hate to have to lug that one-piece 120mm round a long distance, but it's a lot more convenient to handle than a separate round and powder bags from what I understand.
Quote from: Carthaginian on April 03, 2007, 10:36:46 AM
Remember, the shell hoists for these guns are going to do away with the most awkward part of firing an artillery piece on land... carrying the round from the box to the gun.
I've never gotten to handle something THAT big *OMFG but it's big*, but I've played with the 120mm rounds from an M1-A2 before. As long as the round is kept proximate to the gun, it's easier to have it in one piece. I'd hate to have to lug that one-piece 120mm round a long distance, but it's a lot more convenient to handle than a separate round and powder bags from what I understand.
Thankfully we never* had to manhandle them, thy were loaded in a 14-round magazine in the back of the gun, and we could fire it all in about 45 sec, not bad for a field cannon from the sixties. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandkanon_1
Ah, nostalgia..
*well it happen when something went wrong, like when the loading vehicle managed to drop one...
And shee hiost does not help that much as it is still long and tricky to manouver.
Quote from: Korpen on April 03, 2007, 10:42:53 AM
Thankfully we never* had to manhandle them, thy were loaded in a 14-round magazine in the back of the gun, and we could fire it all in about 45 sec, not bad for a field cannon from the sixties. :)
*whistles*
WOW
My Grandfather would almost faint! He was a 105mm gunner from '41-'46, and numbers like that would blow his mind. That's getting into the outrageous range for a field piece.
Swedish Army, huh... I wonder if you guys would dust off those old Bofors plans and try and sell them to the US army. Looks like it's got it all over the Paladin I saw our boys using in Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandkanon_1
There's no problem with the Crusader at all, it was already in a working prototype stage when someone who knew better cancelled it.
PzH2000 only approaches that capability. The only one system on par with it is the twin-barrel Russian monster also in prototype stage.
Ahoj!
The above information only prove that large calibre QF are not valid. The French oddball 140mm QF stays as a not very succesful experiment. The loaders are specially selected for strenght (a coveted promotion for stokers).
The maximum calibre for for QF should be 5 inch, for guns which either do not have high velocity (thus lighter round) or not very high ROF. But issues with fixed rounds start from 4 inches/105mm upwards.
Borys
Well the options are continue to use the 4.5 inch quick fires. Use an older though sturdy Confederate 6 inch breech loader, or use a Rohirrim 7.5 inch breech loader as a secondary weapon on a 14" gun armed battleship.
Trouble being that over 6 inch it is likely that a weapon will not be able to track a destroyer sized vessel. The 4.5 inch, as a quick fire has a better chance of getting the hit while still posing at least a small threat to cruisers and the upper works of battleships. A 7.5 inch gun will be pretty much useless against destroyers and torpedo boats but will ring the bells of any cruiser and could put a dent in some battleships. The 6 inch guns (100 pounders) can engage a destroyer and do some damage to a cruiser while still being able to annoy a capital ship's lighter armored sections.
If Rohan goes with the current pattern from the Theoden's up, there will be 9 inch secondaries, or reduced to twin 7.5 inch turret secondaries if not just casemate mounts (using the turrets designed for the belted cruisers as a baseline), or Rohan follows the Arcadia pattern and has no heavy secondaries, just the quick fires and all big guns.
Now this, this is scary. Dropping the 6 inch and using the 7.5 and 4.5 inch guns. The 4.5s firing in high casemate mounts over the twin turrets...using belted cruiser turrets for the 7.5s.
Helm Hammerhand
Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
23,945 t light; 25,006 t standard; 26,650 t normal; 27,859 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
515.00 ft / 510.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
156.97 m / 155.45 m x 32.92 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (4x2 guns), 210.94lbs / 95.68kg shells, 1891 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,219 lbs / 5,996 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 70
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 20.65 kts
Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,960 tons)
Complement:
1,042 - 1,355
Cost:
£2.458 million / $9.833 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,652 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 10,095 tons, 37.9 %
- Belts: 3,880 tons, 14.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3,567 tons, 13.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,377 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 270 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,659 tons, 6.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,489 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,705 tons, 10.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
39,399 lbs / 17,871 Kg = 28.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.677
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.6 %
Waterplane Area: 42,830 Square feet or 3,979 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 935 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.97
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or really scary big. (to match the Japanese vessels with 10 and 12 inch secondaries) This uses the combat cruiser 9 inch gun turrets.
Helm Hammerhand
Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
25,214 t light; 26,777 t standard; 28,500 t normal; 29,765 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
535.00 ft / 530.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
163.07 m / 161.54 m x 32.92 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns (4x2 guns), 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1891 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 14,447 lbs / 6,553 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 20.48 kts
Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,102 tons)
Complement:
1,096 - 1,425
Cost:
£2.632 million / $10.527 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,806 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 10,471 tons, 36.7 %
- Belts: 3,908 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3,759 tons, 13.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,522 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 282 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,659 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,228 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,286 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,691 lbs / 18,911 Kg = 30.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.697
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.02 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.9 %
Waterplane Area: 45,434 Square feet or 4,221 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 948 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.82
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The planned Confederate 6"/45 cal QF's are going to have separate ammo, much like the real British 6" QF's. This mostly eliminates the weight and size problems suggested, the cartridge will actually weigh only about 60-65 pounds- only a bit more than half the shell weight. They'll also only be about 4' long... not too big and bulky to be handled well.
If I can handle the receiver of a M2 .50cal in the enclosed space of a Humvee without great difficulty (similar sizes & weights) then the sailors can manage with these, I think. ;)
Ahoj!
Ahh, the malicious British 6 inch QF :)
Spring Sharp and the Royal Navy do not always use the same terminology. In Spring Sharp QF=fixed case, Breech Loader = separate (regardless of HOW separate). The RN was NOT so consistent in its terminology.
Thus, regardless if separate-bag, or separate-cartridge, such guns are both BL in SS.
Reading the SS manual reveals such juicy titbits.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on April 04, 2007, 02:50:53 AM
Ahoj!
Ahh, the malicious British 6 inch QF :)
Spring Sharp and the Royal Navy do not always use the same terminology. In Spring Sharp QF=fixed case, Breech Loader = separate (regardless of HOW separate). The RN was NOT so consistent in its terminology.
Thus, regardless if separate-bag, or separate-cartridge, such guns are both BL in SS.
Reading the SS manual reveals such juicy titbits.
Borys
INSTRUCTIONS?
WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' INSTRUCTIONS!!!
;)
Seriously, though... sorry for the case of mistaken identity. I'll sim any such ships as 'BL' and will re-name the gun appropriately. I had never really read the manual that in-depth; I'm more of a 'learn by doing' sort... which explains the bumps and bruises. :)
I'll 'reinvent' the gun I was planning if that works better, making it an improved BL design in keeping with the gun development chart.
Ahoj!
You're not the first to be cofused by this. If Goalkeeper or Phalanx are called "Cavalcade of Whirling Death" by their producers, they still are bland, unexciting "machine guns" to SS :)
Borys
It doesnt really matter, SS2 will assigned the same weight to the gun independant of wether it is a breech loader or a quick firing.
So the question is, now that we have all this data, which battleship should the Mark build next?
There are the above options:
8 x 14" with 4.5" QF as secondaries
8 x 14" with 6" secondaries
8 x 14" with 7.5" turreted secondaries and 4.5" QFs
8 x 14" with 9" turreted secondaries and 4.5" QFs
And there are a few other options (older actually):
6 x 14" with 9" secondaries including a single superimposed 9" turret aft.
6 x 14" with 7.5" turreted or casemated secondaries.
And there are the unexplored options.
Mixed 12" triple with twin 14" turrets (an old Nevada looking ship)
Four triple 12" turrets to make it looks like a version of the Snowmane.
An enlarged Arcadia with added superimposed turrets in addition to the wing turrets.
Triple 14" gun turrets. (which I was going to wait until later to do)
I'd go with either the 4.5" or 6" secondaries.
My own 7.5" secondaries were (apparently) too heavy for effective use. The CSA tried that on one BB class and then reverted back to 6" guns. I'd say stick to the first two plans.
The one mounting four triple 12" turrets would be a nice ship as well, it would fit in good with the 'character' of the classes laid down now. A possibility if the two 14" ships are decided agianst.
The third and forth would be OK, but the ship would either get really big and expensive, or make sacrifices in armor and speed that the Mark probably doesn't wish to make.
The older options... well, they're old. ;)
The mixed version would simply serve to confuse gunners... bad idea.
The final two options are good as well, but if you have wing turrets, make sure they can cross-deck. :) And the triple 14" ship would probably be the best bet, but it might take a while.
How about making it longer and narrower and dump 7x2 12 inch guns and 20x1 6 inch guns on there...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/c/c9/HMS_Agincourt_Skizze.jpg)
;D
Ahoj!
I have problem in deciding due to navweapons having strange date. The British 7,5 inchers (the only of that calibre with armour piercing data) have intriguing differences in their AP capability.
With same muzzle velocity, same weight of CPC shell, MkIII penetrates 4,5 inch at 3000 yards, while MkIV pentrates 4 inches at 10000 yards, and 10 inches at 3000.
Went back to read the fine print.
The first figure is for 30 degree impact, the 4 inch at 10K yards is unknown, and 10 inches at 3K is for vertical.
Interestingly, 30 degree angle of fall would be at 15K yards. At 3K yards it would be 7 degrees.
My suggestion is to go with
6 x 14" with 7.5" turreted or casemated secondaries.
The 7,5 pentration rate at expected battle ranges should be 6-7 inches of armour (enough for non-Main Belt belts, and often upper belt as well), and the ROF is almost twice that of 9 inch guns.
Borys
Six or eight x14" with 9" secondaries would not be surprising follow-ons. I'm not sure if Rohan feels the mixed battery still has merit or not.
With a couple of 14" ships now in service, I don't imagine a move back to 12" would be that popular amongst the senior levels of government.
Ahoj!
6x14" +9", even though the amount of metal in the air would be lower, would guaranty penetration of upper and side belts. However, usefulness against torpedo boats/destroyers would be "not very high". The 7,5 are LIKELY to pentrate those upper and side belts, and are still uself (I think) against torpedo boats/destroyers.
Thus, either plan to have light cruisers on hand to protect against torpedo attacks, or add 4-6" secondaries. yes, secondaries, as the 9 inchers are "Second Main Calibre".
:)
Borys
That comes later Walter, one must have patience before one can make turret farm ship...with 14 inch guns. ;D
14" and 9" is not surprizing since that is what the Freawines are armed with. Since there has been no combat since the Anahuac war for these type of ships, they have little data to go with at present since the battleships were only in one real action the whole war. In that action the 9" guns did better than the 12" guns for the majority of the fighting. The single 7.5 inch armed vessel did a lot of damage to enemy cruisers, but was destroyed too quickly to assess its use on capital ships.
The Arcadias are all big gun mainly because of the need to not use the French 340mm cannons and not enough space for the new 14 inch guns, thus the triple 12" turrets were made.
War games have not been conclusive at this time. Arcadia tends to get more hits than the Theodens, Elfwines, and Eomers, but the extra number of 9" batteries on the older Rohirrim vessels tend to make up the difference in scoring hits. But then the difference is 8 x 12" broadside from Arcadia verses 6 x 12" + 4 x 9" on a broadside, thus the older ships have 2 more barrels to shoot verses Arcadia. Freawine is of a similar design to Elfwine just with a superimposed turret and 14" guns. So it too has 10 barrels on a broadside (6 x 14" + 4 x 9")
Helm Hammerhand is proposed to be 8 x 14" + 4 x 9" on a broadside. Hmmm...I wonder if....
...Oh dear...
Helm Hammerhand
Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
26,461 t light; 28,025 t standard; 29,500 t normal; 30,562 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
535.00 ft / 530.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
163.07 m / 161.54 m x 32.92 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1891 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,019 lbs / 7,720 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 20.40 kts
Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,655 tons)
Complement:
1,125 - 1,463
Cost:
£2.933 million / $11.731 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,127 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 10,502 tons, 35.6 %
- Belts: 3,692 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 4,008 tons, 13.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,513 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 289 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,568 tons, 5.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,213 tons, 41.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,039 tons, 10.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
39,466 lbs / 17,902 Kg = 28.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.694
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.02 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.3 %
Waterplane Area: 45,279 Square feet or 4,207 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,026 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Everything about that ship is frightening... including the pricetag!
Looks like Satsuma just met her match!
Trying to kill us with heart attacks?
Dont worry Walter, Gin Palace will be built (as will the Fisher Follies!)
QuoteTrying to kill us with heart attacks?
Well I almost gave myself one when I found out I could get it to fit.
Just wait until I try to draw it. ;D
Yes for the price of
Snowmane and
Valandil you can build this one ship....in about three years, three and a half years, and about 26.5 BP.
It will still fit through the canal. It is this wide so it will still be stable.
(I'd like to note that the
Helm Hammerhand design is the most modified ship I have in my Rohan file. I have 16 versions of it now..from the 8 x 12" cannon wing turret armed 17,750 ton normal vessel with no heavy secondaries (to have been laid down in 1899 with 1906 turbines) to the 1907 battleship with 1909 turbines and 12 x 14" cannons at 29,500 tons normal you see here...its gone thorugh a lot. Only the Chilean Heavy Armored Cruiser
Capitan Oyama in Wesworld has gone though so many changes of the ships I've designed.
Okay, logic time: The Mark is going from a ship like this:
Walda - laid down 1904
Rohan Battleship laid down 1902 (Engine 1906)
Displacement:
16,868 t light; 17,716 t standard; 18,750 t normal; 19,502 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 26.52 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns in single mounts, 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns in single mounts, 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,705 lbs / 5,309 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 70
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 170.00 ft / 51.82 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 9.00" / 229 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 7.00" / 178 mm - -
4th: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,000 shp / 17,158 Kw = 19.91 kts
Range 5,250nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,862 tons)
Complement:
800 - 1,041
Cost:
£2.041 million / $8.162 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,463 tons, 7.8 %
Armour: 6,362 tons, 33.9 %
- Belts: 2,864 tons, 15.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,127 tons, 11.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,188 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 183 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,580 tons, 8.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,413 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,882 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,652 lbs / 8,914 Kg = 14.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.629
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 15.88 ft / 4.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.1 %
Waterplane Area: 32,108 Square feet or 2,983 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 847 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
...to a ship that is 10,000 tons light heavier and mounts six twin 14" gun turrets. However the plan was to make smaller steps. Logically the step should probably be to 4 turrets. The question is if the design should be "all big gun" or mixed main caliber weapons (9" or 7.5"). Even the first proposal shops jump the light tonnage by about 5,000 tons, and increased the ships dimensions by 10 feet in length and 9 feet in width (for stability) with the mixed main caliber ships getting larger than this even.
So logically, if Rohan follows its own pattern does it stay with mixed heavy weapons, or follow the path of Arcadia? The Arcadia path is heading the way of the Battlecruiser Snowmane. However Rohan has always been for firepower over speed. The more barrels they can point at the enemy the more likely they will leave you be. With the introduction of the turbines the fleet speed has altered to 20 knots. Thus Rohan is at a turnning point in design. And it is unclear which way they should go.
There's still a need for a "battleship", as Snowmane is clearly not up to the task of going toe to toe with other battleships; the protection isn't there.
I'd suggest going to a 4x2 14", all-big-gun battleship as your next step; it will be broadly similar in capability to Walda, allowing the Mark to compare the two types in service. A 6x2 ship doesn't allow a real comparison to be made, and the size of that ship is likely to be deemed excessive by your own government.
Snowmane is an experiment. Battleship guns on an armored cruiser (with slightly better armor than my current combat cruisers) as a fleet level scout and cruiser killer. I may work, it may not be viable when its competition is a 12 x 9" gun combat cruiser that is a little bit cheaper to build than the 9 x 12" gun battlecruiser.
But the Helm Hammerhand with confederate 6" guns is probably the best choice in terms of firepower, but the 4.5" quickfires allow for better rate of fire for torpedo boat defense and the vessel is slightly more survivable (4.1 torpedo hits and 26.6 x 14" shell hits verse 3.9 torpedo hits and 24.8 x 14" shell hits). However the 4.5" gun version is presently designed to a higher standard (Cross-sectional: 1.00). I image if I overbuild the 6" gun version to that standard it could be just as survivable, but more expensive.
Considering that historical dreadnoughts and super-dreadnoughts were armed with 4" guns in the British Navy until the Iron Duke-class with 6" guns and the American stuck with a 5" gun for all but the first class of vessel, a 4.5" gun is not all that off from normal..and a 6" gun is not too far off from standard predreadnought armament.
Ahoj!
The USN 5/51 was very, very powerful weapon. Almost like the Russian 130/50.
Borys
This then will probably be the next Battleship of the Mark.
Helm Hammerhand
Fengel
Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
21,522 t light; 22,623 t standard; 23,750 t normal; 24,556 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
515.00 ft / 510.00 ft x 97.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
156.97 m / 155.45 m x 29.57 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1891 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12,287 lbs / 5,573 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 175.00 ft / 53.34 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 7.00" / 178 mm 335.00 ft / 102.11 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28,500 shp / 21,261 Kw = 20.14 kts
Range 5,750nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,028 tons)
Complement:
956 - 1,243
Cost:
£2.235 million / $8.941 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,536 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 9,189 tons, 38.7 %
- Belts: 3,831 tons, 16.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,985 tons, 12.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,123 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 250 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,370 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,377 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,228 tons, 9.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,551 lbs / 15,672 Kg = 25.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.672
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.26 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.48 ft / 6.24 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.4 %
Waterplane Area: 38,255 Square feet or 3,554 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 899 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.97
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I like it, certainly something to be scared of, and a design to get the French Shipyards, and Government thinking I reckon, but that is up to Maddox.
Considering Helm Hammerhand and the new Fengel won't be finished until at least the last half of 1909 and probably not finish trials until 1910, Rohan will need to design another battlship for 1909. It will probably have to seriously think about reconstruction of the Theoden and Goldwine along with the rebuilding of Elfwine (to match Brytta and Eomer). Eomer might need a refit to mount the newer model 12" guns that Brytta and Arcadia are armed with (better quality guns, same caliber).
I'm wondering on the Theodens however. They are the oldest of the "modern" battleships and are slower and have an older gun type (12"/36 cal). Would it be possible to reconstruct these battleships to mount a superimposed "B" turret, the new model 1902 12"/42 caliber cannons, oil fired boilers, and maybe increase her speed with a new VTE engine to at least allow her to match the Eomer and Elfwines 16.5 knots?
The four Bregos will probably be placed in reserve as soon as there are enough capital ships to allow them to do so. They probably don't warrent a refit, as they make be scrapped soon after they become reserve vessels? That is unless someone wants to buy four used pre-dreadnoughts (1889 models). They are great on firepower but weak on speed and armor.
Note on the Bregos: They will likely not be sold until 1909 or 1910...when Rohan will have enough capital ships to replace these four vessels. (two Snowmanes and two Helm Hammerhands)...if Fengel was still intact we might be willing to let them go in 1908 when the Snowmane is finished, but since Fengel is with Davey Jones, anyone who wants some serious firepower will have to want until the Mark can afford to part with them.
A refit would take one half year to one full year if the work requested requires a rebuild.
Price plain is $13.60 for the lot of four ($3.40 each), $27.20 for the lot refitted and $40.80 for the lot all rebuilt. (Reconstruction would be $54.40 and at least a year and a half in the docks for all of them)