I'll throw these semi-serious ideas in one thread from now on, to avoid too much clutter. The first:
A study for a design to replace the aging Confederate 1st Class Cruisers. This ship would, of course, require a new 9.25" (probably L45 or L50) 400 pounder gun being developed, as well as a twin 5.5" 75 pounder mount.
I'm interested to see what others think of this. The CSA has never been enamored of battlecruisers, but is considering one. The main advantage of this ship is that it is smaller, allowing other construction for the same budget.
CSA 1st Class Cruiser, CSA 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
16,000 t light; 16,835 t standard; 19,116 t normal; 20,941 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
710.00 ft / 695.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 27.43 ft (normal load)
216.41 m / 211.84 m x 23.77 m x 8.36 m
Armament:
8 - 9.25" / 235 mm guns (4x2 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,115 lbs / 1,867 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 190
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 225.00 ft / 68.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.75" / 197 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 7.75" / 197 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 29.02 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,106 tons
Complement:
812 - 1,056
Cost:
£2.365 million / $9.460 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 522 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 4,797 tons, 25.1 %
- Belts: 2,797 tons, 14.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 922 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 960 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Tower: 119 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 16.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,120 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,116 tons, 16.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 370 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,231 lbs / 11,445 Kg = 63.8 x 9.3 " / 235 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.36
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27.35 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (40 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 20.05 ft / 6.11 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.5 %
Waterplane Area: 34,579 Square feet or 3,212 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 653 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
25t: Extra accomodations and flag facilities
70t: Misc Equipment and reserve
2700t heavier than my similar ship with the same main armament and not showing much for it. Might want to slim her down if you want more ships.
if 25 tons is full flag facilities perhaps mine on my new CL arn't so "limited" at 16 lol
P3D: are you referring to your Alectos?
Well, the hull forms are a lot different, but this one has a lot better seakeeping (which may or may not matter, I don't really know). That probably accounts for a big chunk of weight, and there's a bit more here in misc weights too. This ship is also a lot more stable (again, I'm not sure that really matters much).
I'll mess around with at least trying to get this one in a type 2 dock and see what I get.
All that said, I'm more interested in evaluating the concept of a 9.2"(ish) cruiser? Is there value in it? I've also fiddled with an 8x7.5" ship with similar range on 9000t...
Here's a second pass. Displaces a little less, has a little less range, but worked in 2 more 9.25" guns. Alternately, the same ship can carry 8 10" guns, with all else being the same (maybe slightly more armor), which might be a worthwhile idea, since I'd have to develop a new gun anyway.
CSA 1st Class Cruiser, CSA 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
15,920 t light; 16,835 t standard; 18,882 t normal; 20,520 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
710.00 ft / 695.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 25.65 ft (normal load)
216.41 m / 211.84 m x 23.77 m x 7.82 m
Armament:
10 - 9.25" / 235 mm guns (4 mounts), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,915 lbs / 2,229 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 190
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 295.00 ft / 89.92 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 7,200nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,685 tons
Complement:
805 - 1,047
Cost:
£2.496 million / $9.986 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 621 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 4,642 tons, 24.6 %
- Belts: 2,554 tons, 13.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,000 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 980 tons, 5.2 %
- Conning Tower: 107 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 16.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,097 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,962 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 370 tons, 2.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,681 lbs / 10,288 Kg = 57.3 x 9.3 " / 235 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27.35 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Mid (42 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 18.36 ft / 5.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.0 %
Waterplane Area: 35,330 Square feet or 3,282 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 664 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
25t: Extra accomodations and flag facilities
70t: Misc Equipment and reserve
Quote from: guinness on August 31, 2008, 08:39:45 PM
Well, the hull forms are a lot different, but this one has a lot better seakeeping (which may or may not matter, I don't really know). That probably accounts for a big chunk of weight, and there's a bit more here in misc weights too. This ship is also a lot more stable (again, I'm not sure that really matters much).
I'll mess around with at least trying to get this one in a type 2 dock and see what I get.
All that said, I'm more interested in evaluating the concept of a 9.2"(ish) cruiser? Is there value in it? I've also fiddled with an 8x7.5" ship with similar range on 9000t...
I kept length to 170m, that essentially limited my displacement to 13000t (keeping 29kts speed), seakeeping and stability.
Quote from: guinness on August 31, 2008, 08:39:45 PM
All that said, I'm more interested in evaluating the concept of a 9.2"(ish) cruiser? Is there value in it? I've also fiddled with an 8x7.5" ship with similar range on 9000t...
I think 9,2" (ish) cruisers are a valid concept. As long as they don't get too large. Mine is 11,000 tonnes. I would not build a 15,000 tonner with such guns - I'd use 11".
I think there a niche for 8x7.5" ships as well. Again, IMO the trick is not to make them too big. Mine is 7 or 8 thousand tonnes.
Borys
For 15000t cruisers with 9"2. about 12 to 15 guns are neccessary.
Jef ;)
Again I agree.
Borys
Quote from: Jefgte on September 01, 2008, 04:41:28 AM
For 15000t cruisers with 9"2. about 12 to 15 guns are neccessary.
Jef ;)
Steel rain designs have been posted before :)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=898.msg23526#msg23526
Turning back to 7.5" gun armed Cruisers, the CSA version of a treaty cruiser.
First a question though: is a 7.5" armed 10,000t (light) cruiser a cruiser for FC purposes, or a capital ship? I'm assuming cruiser for the moment...
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser secondary armor, CSA 2nd Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,555 t standard; 12,059 t normal; 13,263 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 546.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 24.94 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 166.42 m x 18.90 m x 7.60 m
Armament:
10 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (5x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,415 lbs / 1,095 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 225
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 359.00 ft / 109.42 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.50" / 64 mm 167.00 ft / 50.90 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 2.50" / 64 mm 359.00 ft / 109.42 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.25" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 72,000 shp / 53,712 Kw = 29.53 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,708 tons
Complement:
574 - 747
Cost:
£1.669 million / $6.676 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 319 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 2,325 tons, 19.3 %
- Belts: 1,270 tons, 10.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 477 tons, 4.0 %
- Armour Deck: 522 tons, 4.3 %
- Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,871 tons, 23.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,251 tons, 35.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,060 tons, 17.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 234 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,957 lbs / 5,877 Kg = 61.4 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.37 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (48 %): 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
- Stern: 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
- Average freeboard: 21.29 ft / 6.49 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.4 %
Waterplane Area: 22,555 Square feet or 2,095 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.85
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
100t: Fire Control
25t: Marconi
4t: Torpedoes
25t: Extra accommodations and flag facilities
80t: Misc Equipment and reserve
This would be an armored cruiser under the BB/AC architecture, so would require 250 t FC.
Quite good.
Borys
I like 10X10" atm @28 knots
A 10x7.5" ship with 8 4.75" secondaries and a bunch of lighter guns doesn't even get a NEDS from Borys? ;-)
Here's the version with 250t FC. Even managed to gain a little speed for my 250t weight added...
I like how this ship came out, so it's likely it will become the first-line replacement for my aging 1st and 2nd class ACs. The question still is whether a larger cruiser or a BC is worth it.
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser secondary armor, CSA 2nd Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
10,250 t light; 10,811 t standard; 12,337 t normal; 13,557 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 546.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 25.51 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 166.42 m x 18.90 m x 7.78 m
Armament:
10 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (5x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,415 lbs / 1,095 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 225
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 363.00 ft / 110.64 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.50" / 64 mm 163.00 ft / 49.68 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 2.50" / 64 mm 363.00 ft / 110.64 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.25" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74,000 shp / 55,204 Kw = 29.62 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,746 tons
Complement:
584 - 760
Cost:
£1.702 million / $6.806 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 319 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 2,333 tons, 18.9 %
- Belts: 1,277 tons, 10.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 477 tons, 3.9 %
- Armour Deck: 522 tons, 4.2 %
- Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,951 tons, 23.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,278 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,086 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 369 tons, 3.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,839 lbs / 5,823 Kg = 60.9 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.37 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (48 %): 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
- Stern: 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
- Average freeboard: 21.29 ft / 6.49 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.9 %
Waterplane Area: 22,555 Square feet or 2,095 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.87
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Marconi
4t: Torpedoes
25t: Extra accommodations and flag facilities
65t: Misc Equipment and reserve
And while I'm at it, a 30 knot version, just for comparison's sake. I think this one is probably a little thin skinned though.
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser 30 knots, CSA 2nd Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
10,250 t light; 10,811 t standard; 12,337 t normal; 13,557 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 546.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 25.51 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 166.42 m x 18.90 m x 7.78 m
Armament:
10 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (5x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,415 lbs / 1,095 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 225
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 384.00 ft / 117.04 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 142.00 ft / 43.28 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 384.00 ft / 117.04 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.25" / 83 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.25" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 30.19 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,746 tons
Complement:
584 - 760
Cost:
£1.756 million / $7.026 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 319 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 2,010 tons, 16.3 %
- Belts: 1,009 tons, 8.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 422 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 522 tons, 4.2 %
- Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 25.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,362 tons, 35.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,086 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 369 tons, 3.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,612 lbs / 5,267 Kg = 55.0 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.37 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 24.50 ft / 7.47 m
- Mid (51 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 21.84 ft / 6.66 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.2 %
Waterplane Area: 22,555 Square feet or 2,095 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 540 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 2.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Marconi
4t: Torpedoes
25t: Extra accommodations and flag facilities
65t: Misc Equipment and reserve
Quote from: guinness on September 02, 2008, 10:17:19 AM
A 10x7.5" ship with 8 4.75" secondaries and a bunch of lighter guns doesn't even get a NEDS from Borys? ;-)
It is in line with several OTL examples.
Mogami?
Borys
Right now, Mogami might be a good OTL parallel, yes. This ship has a heavier secondary armament though, and hopefully more reserve stability, if less speed. I'm not sure I'm committed to the 3 forward, 2 aft turret arrangement. I'd rather build a ship with 2 triples and 2 twins, but as it is, I'll have to research the twin mounting for a year before I'd build this, so possibly a 4 turret design will evolve from the 5 turret design.
If it is to be a 5 turret ship, it's most likely to be a Brooklyn style raised second turret, to save some length. When I get home from my holiday this week, I'll take a hack at drawing one and see how it looks.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/haguro01.jpg
10x8", 8x5" ... even with five inchers being twins it looks crowded ... but there should be space for four singles on each beam, if the floatplane facilities are (mercifully) deleted.
Borys
Wikipedia has a good US ONI illustration of Mogami in her 8" configuration it turns out:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Mogami-1.jpg
She's got a much longer L/B ratio at 10.5, and is a lot longer overall and doesn't draw nearly as much water as this design.
I think she looks crowded because of the aircraft installation as much as anything else.
Riffing off Tanthalas's preference for 10x10" at 28 knots, here's tonight's crazy concept for a modern CSA take on an Armored Cruiser:
CSA 1st Class Cruiser 12 10 inch, CSA 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
18,400 t light; 19,589 t standard; 21,757 t normal; 23,491 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
676.00 ft / 665.00 ft x 86.00 ft x 25.61 ft (normal load)
206.04 m / 202.69 m x 26.21 m x 7.80 m
Armament:
12 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (4x3 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 80.00lbs / 36.29kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,655 lbs / 3,019 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 454.00 ft / 138.38 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 191.00 ft / 58.22 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 454.00 ft / 138.38 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.25" / 32 mm 454.00 ft / 138.38 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,903 tons
Complement:
895 - 1,164
Cost:
£2.932 million / $11.729 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 835 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 5,631 tons, 25.9 %
- Belts: 2,664 tons, 12.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 504 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 1,235 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,077 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Tower: 151 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 14.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,364 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,357 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 380 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,912 lbs / 12,661 Kg = 55.8 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 20.11 ft / 6.13 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.0 %
Waterplane Area: 38,811 Square feet or 3,606 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 736 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.21
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Marconi
25t: Extra accommodations and flag facilities
80t: Misc Equipment and reserve
Too large for 10" - at this size I'd go with 4x2x12".
Borys
Underwhelming to say the least, especially for a 1916 ship. The Swiss Independance and the Columbian Warriors, are capable of 27 knots, carry 8x12", and are already in service. The Independance has a 9" belt and 3" deck, while the Warrioirs have a 12" belt and 3" deck. The Independance being a thousand tons lighter and having the firepower to repel a torpedo boat attack.
The CSA doesn't have much use for true Battlecruisers, so giving up on the idea of an extra large cruiser for now, something entirely different:
Faced with refitting a large number of "Frigates" (as known in the CSA), one concept under consideration is their conversion to dedicated flagship/tenders for 10 boat divisions of the new 250t Torpedo Boats.
Torpedo boat: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2657.msg28669#msg28669 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2657.msg28669#msg28669)
Thomasville class frigates: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=747.msg4941#msg4941 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=747.msg4941#msg4941)
During conversion, 3/4 of the boilers would be removed, reducing top speed, and the rest converted to solely oil firing. The former boiler spaces would be used for additional bunkerage. Most of the 4.85" 55 pounder guns, and all of the 6 pounder guns removed, their handling rooms being used for additional berthing space. New workshops on-deck, and space made for reload torpedo storage. The armored belt would be removed.
Enough fuel would be carried to refuel each boat once, and enough torpedoes carried to reload each boat once. Limited shops for various light maintenance tasks.
These ships would be used to allow TB division to deploy along the CSA coast away from major ports, or for forward deployments elsewhere, though fuel would need to be supplied periodically by oilers.
(OOC: This is also a test to see if I understand the new Tender rules)
CSS Thomasville Tender Refit, CSA TB Tender laid down 1900
Displacement:
2,330 t light; 2,400 t standard; 2,933 t normal; 3,360 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 41.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 100.58 m x 12.50 m x 4.27 m
Armament:
2 - 4.85" / 123 mm guns in single mounts, 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 114 lbs / 52 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 170
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,577 ihp / 1,923 Kw = 14.80 kts
Range 11,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 961 tons
Complement:
199 - 259
Cost:
£0.145 million / $0.581 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 15 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 366 tons, 12.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 744 tons, 25.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 603 tons, 20.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,200 tons, 40.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,294 lbs / 1,494 Kg = 57.8 x 4.9 " / 123 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.542
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 34 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 10.51 ft / 3.20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.8 %
Waterplane Area: 9,372 Square feet or 871 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 258 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Ship Designed to Support 10 TB-01 class Torpedo Boats
Misc Weights:
534 tons - Additional Bunkerage
60 tons - Reload Torpedoes
25 tons - Long range Marconi
400 tons - Additional accomodations for 200 crew
181 tons - Shops, etc.
I like the concept, a good use of an obsolete hull.
You've got a "capsize" warning - you'll need to play with the trim.
Thanks for catching that. I've fixed it above.
It turns out these ships are just the right size to support 10 of the new TBs, not I just need to figure out the cost of conversion...
Can someone double check my work on this? Here's what I figure for the costs of conversion
1200 tons of misc weight is 1.2 BP and $
minus scrap value of removed machinery and armor belt, which is 0.1524 BP and $ and 0.01095 BP and $ respectively.
Grand total then is 1.037 BP and $.
I'm not scrapping the unused 4.85" guns. I'll probably reuse them for shore defense later.
There'd be a cost associated with changing fuel type, too.
Yeah, but how much? In the past, P3D theorized that I could convert an entire large AC from mixed firing to oil firing for a nominal 0.1 BP and $ (if I recall correctly). I'd expect this smaller ship would be even cheaper.
There's also the question of how much work is required. If these ships carried both solely oil fired boilers, and solely coal fired boilers, we might expect that all the coal fired would be removed, leaving only oil firing. The only cost then is that required to convert some of the former boiler spaces to bunkerage, and feed lines, etc., which I'd expect to be pretty cheap.
But, since even a leftover oil boiler would need to be overhauled, maybe I just also pay the usual refit cost? Say 0.23 BP and $, for a total of 1.267 BP and $? Time to complete somewhere around 10 months maybe?
I don't recall the specifics off the top of my head, but I do refer to it in the proposed new ship construction rules. I assume the existing rule set speaks to it as well.
In the newly proposed (adopted?) rules:
Quote
Reconstruction
This is the most elaborate type of refit, and marks a comprehensive change to the ship's internal structure or hull form.
The base dollar cost of a reconstruction is 25% of the original build cost. There is also a BP requirement, 10% of original build requirement, as a result of widespread changes and movement of bulkheads. Finally, there is also the dollar and BP costs of new components described below. Refurbishments take the greater of 2.5 months, or 25% of the ship's original minimum time of construction plus one month per BP of new components added to the ship.
Armament, machinery and functional miscellaneous weight
Main battery turret/barbettes can be raised. Machinery spaces can be enlarged at the expense of other components.
BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
Armor
Internal belts can be replaced or removed.
BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
Hull, fittings & equipment
The bow may be lengthened by up to 5% of overall length. A new section may be added amidships, up to 5% of overall length.
BP cost = double the change in overall light displacement; $ cost is equal to BP.
Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight
Overall bunkerage can be increased. Overall weight of main battery magazine can be increased.
No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
(I'm assuming a change of this scope to be a reconstruction)
So using the new rules, 25% fo the original build $ is $0.5825, 10% of the original BP is 0.233 BP. So if I understand that much correctly, and also pay full price in $ and BP for the new misc weights minus scrap values, I get:
$1.6195 and 1.27 BP.
Time:
Original build time was 11.33 months, so round to 12. A quarter of that is 3 months, plus 1.27 months for new BP, gives me 4.27 months.
They're still proposed. I'm too preoccupied starting players to get around to closing the deal.
Agree that the bunkerage increase requires the reconstruction. As to cost, the miscellaneous weight is mostly functional - so it's $2 per 1,000 t.
Comes out to be $2.24 or so and 1.27BP.
Why 2x the BP cost for functional misc. weight? If we were building a new ship, we'd pay $1 per 1000t of misc. weight (give or take) or less, since we pay by light displacement. I can see paying a little if you are taking stuff out of a ship and putting it in, but isn't that covered in the blanket reconstruction cost?
I based the costing on miscellaneous weight used for devices like fire control, so yes - this isn't necessarily appropriate.
Ok, well unless anyone objects, I'll plan to go forward with this idea in the near future using the proposed new rules, except substituting the cost = bp model for the misc. weights for these ships. In other words, each conversion will cost the CSA $1.6195 and 1.27 BP. I'll plan for the first conversion to take 6 months, but if I end up doing a bunch, I expect the last few might take closer to the 4 month and change minimum conversion time.
While the Thomasville class may be destined for new life as Torpedo Boat tenders, the preceding Pasadenas are being studied for conversion to a new role as minelaying frigates. For this much more limited conversion, 4 4.85" 55 pounder guns would be removed and again set aside for shore installation. The 3 pounder guns would also be removed, as would the torpedo tubes. New 1.5" AA guns would be installed, as would handling gear for 210 mines. Finally, the boilers would be reconditioned and converted to 100% oil firing. It is foreseen that these conversions would each take 3 months.
CSS Pasadena original design: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=747.msg4940#msg4940
CSS Pasadena Refit, CSA Minelaying Frigate laid down 1898
Displacement:
2,491 t light; 2,592 t standard; 2,933 t normal; 3,206 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
330.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 41.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
100.58 m / 100.58 m x 12.50 m x 4.27 m
Armament:
2 - 4.85" / 123 mm guns in single mounts, 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1898 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 4.85" / 123 mm guns in single mounts, 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1898 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1898 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 341 lbs / 155 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 190
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,650 ihp / 7,199 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 615 tons
Complement:
199 - 259
Cost:
£0.308 million / $1.233 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 44 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 90 tons, 3.1 %
- Belts: 73 tons, 2.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 16 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,313 tons, 44.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 804 tons, 27.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 442 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 241 tons, 8.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,272 lbs / 577 Kg = 22.3 x 4.9 " / 123 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.542
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 10.51 ft / 3.20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.8 %
Waterplane Area: 9,372 Square feet or 871 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 279 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
210 tons - 210 Mines
31 tons - Misc equipment and reserve
Costs of conversion:
New equipment:
210 tons armament (mines): 0.210 BP and $0.420
31 tons Misc non-functional items: 0.031 BP and $0.031
Refit cost: $0.479
Total: 0.241 BP and $0.93
An idea for a new standard Torpedo Ram for fleet duties. It's likely that the first couple of batches would be pressed into service as leaders for their predecessors to start with, however.
CSA 1914 Torpedo Ram, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,045 t standard; 1,213 t normal; 1,347 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
343.11 ft / 334.00 ft x 28.00 ft x 11.02 ft (normal load)
104.58 m / 101.80 m x 8.53 m x 3.36 m
Armament:
4 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1914 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 204 lbs / 92 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 31.56 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 302 tons
Complement:
102 - 133
Cost:
£0.186 million / $0.743 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 27 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 11 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 629 tons, 51.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 288 tons, 23.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 212 tons, 17.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 46 tons, 3.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
238 lbs / 108 Kg = 4.4 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.91
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.412
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 77
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.23 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.25 ft / 6.17 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Mid (38 %): 15.50 ft / 4.72 m (7.00 ft / 2.13 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 10.93 ft / 3.33 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.3 %
Waterplane Area: 5,799 Square feet or 539 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
6 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
11 tons: Reserve
Range at top speed: 12 hours, 380 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 18.3 hours, 524 nm
Range at 15 knots: 3000 nm
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.14
Nice, although I'm not keen on the (perfectly legal) high length to beam ratio.
Here's a version with a L/B ratio under 11. Loses 1t misc weight, and a little range:
CSA 1914 Torpedo Ram Lower L/B, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,045 t standard; 1,211 t normal; 1,344 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
343.11 ft / 334.00 ft x 30.50 ft x 10.10 ft (normal load)
104.58 m / 101.80 m x 9.30 m x 3.08 m
Armament:
4 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1914 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 204 lbs / 92 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 31.48 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 299 tons
Complement:
102 - 133
Cost:
£0.186 million / $0.742 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 27 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 11 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 628 tons, 51.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 289 tons, 23.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 211 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 45 tons, 3.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
248 lbs / 113 Kg = 4.6 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.82
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.412
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 85
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.23 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.25 ft / 6.17 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Mid (38 %): 15.50 ft / 4.72 m (7.00 ft / 2.13 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 10.93 ft / 3.33 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.9 %
Waterplane Area: 6,316 Square feet or 587 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.85
- Overall: 0.52
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
6 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
10 tons: Reserve
Range at top speed: 11.9 hours, 375 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 18.0 hours, 515 nm
Range at 15 knots: 2990 nm
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.14
That looks good. Certainly a better boat than my GC equivalent, but I'm already re-designing the second batch of thousand tonners anyway.
One more version. This one has 4" 30 pounder guns instead of the 4.75" 50 pounders, and a very little bit more speed and seakeeping.
Now I'm torn. My instinct is that the 4.75" gun's time has come...
CSA 1914 Torpedo Ram 4 inch, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,038 t standard; 1,204 t normal; 1,336 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
343.23 ft / 334.00 ft x 30.50 ft x 10.04 ft (normal load)
104.62 m / 101.80 m x 9.30 m x 3.06 m
Armament:
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1914 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 124 lbs / 56 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 31.51 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 298 tons
Complement:
101 - 132
Cost:
£0.177 million / $0.707 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 9 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 9 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 643 tons, 53.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 287 tons, 23.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 204 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 45 tons, 3.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
262 lbs / 119 Kg = 8.2 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.86
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.412
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 81
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.23 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.75 ft / 5.41 m
- Mid (38 %): 15.75 ft / 4.80 m (7.25 ft / 2.21 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 7.25 ft / 2.21 m
- Stern: 7.25 ft / 2.21 m
- Average freeboard: 11.18 ft / 3.41 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.5 %
Waterplane Area: 6,316 Square feet or 587 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.90
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
6 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
10 tons: Reserve
Range at top speed: 11.9 hours, 375 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 18.0 hours, 515 nm
Range at 15 knots: 2990 nm
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.08
I think 4" is entirely appropriate for this period, really.
I noticed you're not using deck mount + hoist...I should see what the rest of y'all are doing, as I've constantly been including them.
In this period mount&hoist is pproproate for small cruisers and up. Ships like this one here would have deck moungts.
Borys
New crazy concept: An idea for a small(ish) cruiser meant explicitly for scouting for the battlefleet.
The armor scheme probably looks strange. The idea is the 3" end belt covers the magazines, while the 1" belt covers the machinery spaces.
In theory, the advantage of this idea is this ship would have significantly better seakeeping than a destroyer, making it better suited to the blue-water scouting mission, while still being reasonably cheap. The trade-off, of course, is less armor and range than a cruiser suited to raiding or trade protection.
Scout Cruiser, CSA Scout Cruiser laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
3,700 t light; 3,824 t standard; 4,295 t normal; 4,673 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
448.00 ft / 435.00 ft x 44.50 ft x 16.52 ft (normal load)
136.55 m / 132.59 m x 13.56 m x 5.04 m
Armament:
6 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (4 mounts), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 304 lbs / 138 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 220
6 - 30.0" / 762 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 225.00 ft / 68.58 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 130.00 ft / 39.62 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
80.00 ft / 24.38 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 80 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.25" / 32 mm
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 37,800 shp / 28,199 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons
Complement:
264 - 344
Cost:
£0.477 million / $1.908 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 41 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 467 tons, 10.9 %
- Belts: 217 tons, 5.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 232 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,507 tons, 35.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,532 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 595 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 153 tons, 3.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,400 lbs / 1,542 Kg = 63.4 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.470
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.86 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.62 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (12 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (41 %): 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
- Quarterdeck (12 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 16.06 ft / 4.89 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.7 %
Waterplane Area: 12,558 Square feet or 1,167 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 342 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weights:
100t: Fire Control
6t: Torpedoes
25t: Long Range Marconi
26t: Reserve
Range at Max speed: 670 nm or 23 hours
Range at 25 knots: 1046 nm or 36 hours
Range at 15 knots: 4000 nm
Range at 12 knots: 6650 nm
Better alternative: a 4000t cruiser based on Charlotte, but with 2 knots more speed and a 6th 5.5" gun:
Charlotte Follow On, CSA Cruiser laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
4,000 t light; 4,143 t standard; 4,599 t normal; 4,963 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
425.00 ft / 425.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 19.10 ft (normal load)
129.54 m / 129.54 m x 12.19 m x 5.82 m
Armament:
6 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (4 mounts), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 456 lbs / 207 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 351.00 ft / 106.98 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 127 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 40,000 shp / 29,840 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 6,100nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 820 tons
Complement:
278 - 362
Cost:
£0.530 million / $2.120 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 63 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 694 tons, 15.1 %
- Belts: 464 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 22 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 209 tons, 4.5 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,595 tons, 34.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,499 tons, 32.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 599 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 148 tons, 3.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,058 lbs / 1,387 Kg = 36.8 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.496
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (40 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 15.70 ft / 4.78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 126.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.9 %
Waterplane Area: 11,283 Square feet or 1,048 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 333 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
100t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
4t: Torpedoes
19t: Reserve
Range at 15 knots: 3660 nm
Range at 25 knots: 960 nm
Range at top speed: 608 nm or 20.9 hours
The problem: other navies have rather imposing BCs capable of 27 knots, and shipping broadsides of at least 8000 pounds.
So, any AC replacement likely has to also be capable of 27 knots. Thus, here are three versions of a possible CSA BC. All three have theoretical immunity to the CSA 13.5" 1500 pound round between about 17,000 yards and 20,000 yards. All have (for the CSA) very very long legs, with an eye toward (somewhat) independent operations.
The first has 8x13.5" 1500 pound guns, of the type that has equipped all recent CSA battleships. The second two are equipped with the new 15" 2000 pounder, either in twins (ABY) or triples (AY).
Quote
1914 BC 13.5 Inch, CSA Battlecruisers laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,830 t light; 26,288 t standard; 28,093 t normal; 29,536 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
714.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 29.99 ft (normal load)
217.63 m / 210.31 m x 29.26 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,209 lbs / 5,992 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.50" / 241 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 228.00 ft / 69.49 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.02 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,249 tons
Complement:
1,084 - 1,410
Cost:
£3.169 million / $12.676 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,398 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 9,220 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 3,808 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 589 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,962 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 2,642 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 219 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,622 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,262 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,354 lbs / 15,583 Kg = 27.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (45 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.52 ft / 5.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.7 %
Waterplane Area: 43,934 Square feet or 4,082 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 845 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
10 t Marconi
65 t Flag Facilities
50 t Reserve
Range at 10 knots: 11690nm
Range at 15 knots: 4900nm
Range at 20 knots: 2457nm
Range at max speed: 1091nm
Quote
1914 BC 15 inch 3 turrets, CSA Battlecruiser laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,830 t light; 26,288 t standard; 28,093 t normal; 29,536 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
714.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 29.99 ft (normal load)
217.63 m / 210.31 m x 29.26 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,209 lbs / 5,992 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 228.00 ft / 69.49 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.02 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,249 tons
Complement:
1,084 - 1,410
Cost:
£3.207 million / $12.828 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,433 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 8,523 tons, 30.3 %
- Belts: 3,523 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 589 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,754 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,438 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 219 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,284 tons, 40.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,262 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,204 lbs / 15,515 Kg = 20.3 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.26 ft / 5.87 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.7 %
Waterplane Area: 43,934 Square feet or 4,082 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 891 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
10 t Marconi
65 t Flag Facilities
50 t Reserve
Range at 10 knots: 11690nm
Range at 15 knots: 4900nm
Range at 20 knots: 2457nm
Range at max speed: 1091nm
Quote
1914 BC 15 inch 2 turrets a and y, CSA Battleship laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,830 t light; 26,288 t standard; 28,093 t normal; 29,536 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
714.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 29.99 ft (normal load)
217.63 m / 210.31 m x 29.26 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,209 lbs / 5,992 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.50" / 241 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 228.00 ft / 69.49 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 442.00 ft / 134.72 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.02 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,249 tons
Complement:
1,084 - 1,410
Cost:
£3.207 million / $12.828 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,433 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 8,712 tons, 31.0 %
- Belts: 3,808 tons, 13.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 589 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,455 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,642 tons, 9.4 %
- Conning Tower: 219 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,094 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,262 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,444 lbs / 15,623 Kg = 20.4 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (45 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.52 ft / 5.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.7 %
Waterplane Area: 43,934 Square feet or 4,082 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 883 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
10 t Marconi
65 t Flag Facilities
50 t Reserve
Range at 10 knots: 11690nm
Range at 15 knots: 4900nm
Range at 20 knots: 2457nm
Range at max speed: 1091nm
I'd reduce armor belt to 3" for gamey reasons - that 0.25" is ignored by most (all?) wargames. Same for the 0.50" increments of belt.
Your main adversary is Gran Colombia, with 14" gunned battleships, so 15" should not be necessary - unless you want the BCs to engage the battleline - but then armor would be inadequate. That extra two guns and 240 shells might be decisive if fighting against the large number of Colombian cruisers and destroyers.
Of the three, the 13.5" would be my choice if I were building one.
The 2x3 design might benefit from 75mm deck armor and heavier barbette/face place protection for the main battery to reduce the odds of losing half the battery to a hit.
Are the unarmored ends an intentional feature, or a consequence of enlarging the design late in the game?
P3D wrote:
Quote...Your main adversary is Gran Colombia...
That's clear !!!
What? No. Not at all. But some monks in Tibet have been saying nasty things about CSA lately.
Actually, all the talk of conflict with GC is just to disguise CSA intentions for Peru :)
The 20 foot unarmored ends (like the 4" end and upper belts) are intentional features of CSA design of late. It's felt better to cap the ends with bulkheads and leave the extreme ends unarmored, as the hull is particularly narrow in these areas (especially fore). Frankly, I'm also trying to establish an evolution toward AoN protection in the future.
I still can't decide if I really want to build any BCs. I believe that with 1916 engine tech, true fast BBs will be possible, so given I've already got 8 dreadnoughts comissioned or in the works, I probably can just wait. On the other hand though, I've got nothing that could deal with GC's ACs in a commerce war, and I think that any BC with at least some immunity to 13.5/14 inch fire could also be useful as the nucleus of a fleet scouting formation.
Sure, there's lots of stuff I could build instead between the completion of the Alabamas and whenever construction starts on BBs with 1916 engines, but my instinct is to fill the gap with something. Given that crewing and maintaining these new ships will demand retiring something else, and my big ACs are the most likely candidates, it seems logical to build some BCs.
So at any rate, I embarked on this exercise to see just how much BC I could get.
The peacefull, prosperous democratic republic of Gran Colombia an antagonist? I can't believe that for a second.
I would sue for slander, Rocky.
I agree, He is soft like a lamb.
Jef ;)
Calling GC democratic might get you sued.
Quote from: guinness on October 14, 2008, 07:51:28 AM
The 20 foot unarmored ends (like the 4" end and upper belts) are intentional features of CSA design of late. It's felt better to cap the ends with bulkheads and leave the extreme ends unarmored, as the hull is particularly narrow in these areas (especially fore). Frankly, I'm also trying to establish an evolution toward AoN protection in the future.
A thing about how springsharp works:
The weight of the main and upper belts includes the weight of transverse armoured bulkheads, with a length equal to the maximum beam (excluding bulges).
The end belts do not include that, so they are stricktly sides only armour.
Hmm. Ok, I imagine I can work a little bit of misc weight in for that, or just lengthen the belts.
the 1916 engine tech makes the FAB a totaly realistic proposistion, lump it with the sloped/aon tech and you can build some realy decent ships (although I personaly wont be going AoN yet, just sloped)
Quote from: Tanthalas on October 14, 2008, 09:14:53 AM
the 1916 engine tech makes the FAB a totaly realistic proposistion, lump it with the sloped/aon tech and you can build some realy decent ships (although I personaly wont be going AoN yet, just sloped)
What on earth do the Feline Advisory Bureau have to do with anything?
As for sloped armour and all-or-nothing protection schemes, remember that they have some significant drawbacks to them as well, Sloped armour might deflect shells down so that the detonate at the waterline or smash into the torpedo defence, and All-or-noting leaves much of the ship unprotected. In short it is protections against the odd large calibre hit, while they are quite poor if lots of hits are expected (such as at a short rang fight).
Ok, a wee bit more tinkering with the 13.5" version:
Quote
1914 BC 13.5 Inch, CSA Battlecruisers laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,830 t light; 26,288 t standard; 28,093 t normal; 29,536 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
714.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 29.99 ft (normal load)
217.63 m / 210.31 m x 29.26 m x 9.14 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,209 lbs / 5,992 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 438.00 ft / 133.50 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 252.00 ft / 76.81 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 438.00 ft / 133.50 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 438.00 ft / 133.50 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.02 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,249 tons
Complement:
1,084 - 1,410
Cost:
£3.169 million / $12.676 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,398 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 9,227 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 3,961 tons, 14.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 583 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 2,026 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,438 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 219 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,615 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,262 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,839 lbs / 15,349 Kg = 27.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.77 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (45 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 18.52 ft / 5.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.7 %
Waterplane Area: 43,934 Square feet or 4,082 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 845 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
10 t Marconi
65 t Flag Facilities
50 t Reserve
Range at 10 knots: 11690nm
Range at 15 knots: 4900nm
Range at 20 knots: 2457nm
Range at max speed: 1091nm
Immunity zone: Approx 16,000 to 19,500 yards (againsts own guns)
For comparison the
Quote from: guinness on October 14, 2008, 09:42:14 AM
1914 BC 13.5 Inch, CSA Battlecruisers laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
24,830 t light; 26,288 t standard; 28,093 t normal; 29,536 t full load
Immunity zone: Approx 16,000 to 19,500 yards (againsts own guns)
For comparison its immunity zone against a Dutch/Gran Colombian 35cm shell would be from 17km to about 19km. :)
Right, for the Dutch 350mm gun. Against the 305mms of the Warrior class though, this ship should be immune anywhere outside 15,900 yards (at least according to my amateur NAaB fiddlings).
Actually, against the 305mm gun on the Warrior, this ship could have a thinner deck (say around 2.5") and thicker belt and get an even wider immunity zone, but then it likely would have no immunity against the 350mm gun, and might as well have much thinner armor and bigger guns.
Quote from: guinness on October 14, 2008, 10:11:20 AM
Right, for the Dutch 350mm gun. Against the 305mms of the Warrior class though, this ship should be immune anywhere outside 15,900 yards (at least according to my amateur NAaB fiddlings).
Actually, against the 305mm gun on the Warrior, this ship could have a thinner deck (say around 2.5") and thicker belt and get an even wider immunity zone, but then it likely would have no immunity against the 350mm gun, and might as well have much thinner armor and bigger guns.
Well realistically immunity zones over 140-150hm is largely irrelevant, as there is highly unlikely there will be more then the odd hit at those ranges.
Quote from: Korpen on October 14, 2008, 10:49:33 AM
Well realistically immunity zones over 140-150hm is largely irrelevant, as there is highly unlikely there will be more then the odd hit at those ranges.
Well, the entire Battle of Crete during the last war took place at or beyond 14,000 yards. So Confederate designers are trying to incorporate that experience here, I think.
Ok, though this design might find it's way into the Confederate never-were files, here it is a bit more refined. I'm looking for a little validation of the hull and armor scheme, so here's a very early rendering. One thing I should note immediately is the upper belt comes straight up to the top deck along it's length. I calculated roughly the area covered by it, and averaged it by it's length to get the upper belt height value (since it wouldn't be purely rectangular) I really don't know if that works for simulation purposes though...
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm18/mmichael453/1914%20BC/hull.png)
Ling to view at full resolution: http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm18/mmichael453/1914%20BC/hull.png
and the current SS:
1914 BC 13.5 Inch long raised forcecastle, CSA Battlecruisers laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
25,345 t light; 26,814 t standard; 28,650 t normal; 30,118 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 708.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 29.74 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 215.80 m x 29.26 m x 9.07 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1914 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 1914 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 5 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,210 lbs / 5,992 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.5" / 292 mm 441.00 ft / 134.42 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 267.00 ft / 81.38 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 401.00 ft / 122.22 m 10.60 ft / 3.23 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 441.00 ft / 134.42 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 11.5" / 292 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm -
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,305 tons
Complement:
1,100 - 1,431
Cost:
£3.192 million / $12.768 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,398 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 9,548 tons, 33.3 %
- Belts: 3,990 tons, 13.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 783 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 2,049 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,504 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 222 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,190 tons, 11.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,809 tons, 37.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,305 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,587 lbs / 16,142 Kg = 28.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.496
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.38 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.61 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (22 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (55 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (11.50 ft / 3.51 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
- Average freeboard: 18.46 ft / 5.63 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.7 %
Waterplane Area: 45,121 Square feet or 4,192 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 840 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
10 t Marconi
65 t Flag Facilities
50 t Reserve
Range at 10 knots: 11700nm
Range at 15 knots: 4950nm
Range at 20 knots: 2500nm
Range at max speed: 1125nm
Immunity zone: Approx 16,400 to 20,000 yards (againsts own guns)
Which would you build?
Quote
1915 BB 8 guns, CSA Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
28,500 t light; 30,598 t standard; 32,255 t normal; 33,581 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
650.00 ft / 635.00 ft x 100.50 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
198.12 m / 193.55 m x 30.63 m x 8.84 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,212 lbs / 7,807 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 413.00 ft / 125.88 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 413.00 ft / 125.88 m 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 13.5" / 343 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,000 shp / 29,840 Kw = 21.58 kts
Range 6,650nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,983 tons
Complement:
1,203 - 1,564
Cost:
£4.043 million / $16.170 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,855 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 11,697 tons, 36.3 %
- Belts: 3,912 tons, 12.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,100 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 2,871 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,486 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 327 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,595 tons, 4.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,890 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,755 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 463 tons, 1.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50,276 lbs / 22,805 Kg = 29.8 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.53
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.610
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27.35 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (67 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 21.11 ft / 6.43 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.9 %
Waterplane Area: 47,113 Square feet or 4,377 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 978 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
50 t Flag Facilities
113 t Reserve
or
Quote
1915 BB 10 guns, CSA Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
32,700 t light; 35,198 t standard; 36,779 t normal; 38,043 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
690.00 ft / 675.00 ft x 106.50 ft x 29.50 ft (normal load)
210.31 m / 205.74 m x 32.46 m x 8.99 m
Armament:
10 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4 mounts), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 21,212 lbs / 9,622 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 148
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 13.5" / 343 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 43,000 shp / 32,078 Kw = 21.61 kts
Range 5,700nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,845 tons
Complement:
1,327 - 1,726
Cost:
£4.796 million / $19.185 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,277 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 13,115 tons, 35.7 %
- Belts: 4,163 tons, 11.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,172 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 3,506 tons, 9.5 %
- Armour Deck: 3,916 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 357 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,715 tons, 4.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,174 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,079 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 419 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,079 lbs / 24,983 Kg = 32.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.43
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.607
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27.35 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (67 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 21.11 ft / 6.43 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.8 %
Waterplane Area: 52,922 Square feet or 4,917 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 214 lbs/sq ft or 1,044 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
50 t Flag Facilities
69 t Reserve
eight gun version - those two guns cost you 4200 tonnes. 2100 per barrel ...
Quote from: Borys on November 24, 2008, 02:59:19 PM
eight gun version - those two guns cost you 4200 tonnes. 2100 per barrel ...
I second Borys' opinion on this one. Also 150 and 148 shells respectively is a LOT of shells, RN captial ships in WWI only carried 90-100 shells.
I think the QE's had closer to 150 per gun. The CSA's Oklahomas carry 100 per gun.
These are early design studies, though. There's a chance some of that weight could get turned into fuel or speed.
I've got a 12 gun version at 35,000 odd tons too, but it's starting to sacrifice stability as well.
1916 engine tech, of course, would have some bearing on things too.
One more next gen capital ship concept: BCs and BBs merge...
1916 BB Fast, CSA Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
33,100 t light; 34,948 t standard; 36,702 t normal; 38,105 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 708.00 ft x 102.50 ft x 29.70 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 215.80 m x 31.24 m x 9.05 m
Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
6 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,218 lbs / 7,810 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 115
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.5" / 343 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 460.00 ft / 140.21 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 13.5" / 343 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 98,000 shp / 73,108 Kw = 27.01 kts
Range 7,555nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,157 tons
Complement:
1,325 - 1,723
Cost:
£5.283 million / $21.134 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,856 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 12,581 tons, 34.3 %
- Belts: 4,311 tons, 11.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,089 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 2,911 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,913 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 357 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,651 tons, 9.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,572 tons, 39.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,603 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 439 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50,377 lbs / 22,851 Kg = 29.9 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 7.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.596
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.61 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (67 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (17 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 22.32 ft / 6.80 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.9 %
Waterplane Area: 52,878 Square feet or 4,913 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 975 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
50 t Flag Facilities
82 t Reserve
It might be a little soon to jump to fast battleships - you've barely started the first class of battlecruiser, and have had technical issues with it. It would seem politically risky.
Of the two battleships, I'd go with the ten-gun ship. The larger size is slightly more efficient, and it seems that folks - France, ESC, Rohan, GC - are looking to similarly sized ships for their current building program.
Bah, I thought it was fine. But I don't know much about CSA's politically issues anyways.
Of the two battleships, I prefer the ten-gun ship. The reason is the same as TRD, greater efficency.
Well, the Fast BB is really an evolution of the existing BCs. Powerplant + 25%, guns +25% (shell weight), protection +10%. The hull has more beam and a higher block coefficient, but can be built on the same slips etc. I'd have to lay it down after I complete the next engine tech, so there will be time to digest the design experience of the BCs.
However, the BCs won't yet be in service, so I can still see the risk argument.
What is also risky is jumping straight to a ship with 3x15" mountings, when we haven't ever even built the twin 15".
Bah! Maybe I'll just build destroyers...
Nooooo! The small ships > big ships doctrine is the devil. Once it grasps hold of you, it'll never let you go. I say you build big ships and bigger ships. You build them so build its builder than the H44 Class! ;)
Quote from: Logi on November 24, 2008, 08:21:29 PM
Nooooo! The small ships > big ships doctrine is the devil. Once it grasps hold of you, it'll never let you go. I say you build big ships and bigger ships. You build them so build its builder than the H44 Class! ;)
Well maybe if Woodrow escapes Versailles with his skin, he'll propose a conference on naval limitations! :)
A big chunk of the decision is likely to boil down to how much I can afford to build. For me at least, bigger ships usually are better than nearly equivalent smaller ships, but 2x8 gun ships would be better than 1x10 gun ship and some smaller stuff. I'm strongly biased against building single ship classes if I can avoid it.
Quote from: guinness on November 24, 2008, 08:24:18 PM
Quote from: Logi on November 24, 2008, 08:21:29 PM
Nooooo! The small ships > big ships doctrine is the devil. Once it grasps hold of you, it'll never let you go. I say you build big ships and bigger ships. You build them so build its builder than the H44 Class! ;)
Well maybe if Woodrow escapes Versailles with his skin, he'll propose a conference on naval limitations! :)
A big chunk of the decision is likely to boil down to how much I can afford to build. For me at least, bigger ships usually are better than nearly equivalent smaller ships, but 2x8 gun ships would be better than 1x10 gun ship and some smaller stuff. I'm strongly biased against building single ship classes if I can avoid it.
... THe Swiss Decline to atend (unless you are planing on proposing an overall tonage limit per ship in which case we would joyfuly atend)
RRC would attend, only to argue against the limitations. That is, unless he is proposing a tonnage limit per ship. In which case RRC has absolutely no problems with.
The arms limitation conversation is interesting enough to me that I started a new thread for it here:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3183.msg33864#msg33864
Tonights edition of "which would you build (if any)":
CSA "Treaty Cruisers". More heavily armored than their OTL cousins.
Their mission: 1. Strategic scouting 2. Commerce raiding/protection 3. Tactical scouting out in front of the battlefleet
To build either, I'd need to develop a new 7.5" mount, and maybe even a whole new 7.5" gun.
The advantages of the 10 guns ship are that I can lay it down a half sooner, it's probably a slightly better ship, it's 750t lighter (which isn't much of an advantage), and I believe that the 5 twins probably have a practical rate of fire about equal to the 4 triples.
There's also a 13,000t version with twins over triples (10 guns) but heavier secondary battery.
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser 10x7.5, CSA Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
12,250 t light; 12,746 t standard; 14,183 t normal; 15,332 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
618.00 ft / 605.00 ft x 67.75 ft x 23.20 ft (normal load)
188.37 m / 184.40 m x 20.65 m x 7.07 m
Armament:
10 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (5x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 2,312 lbs / 1,049 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 160
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 414.00 ft / 126.19 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.50" / 140 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.50" / 114 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 100,000 shp / 74,600 Kw = 31.50 kts
Range 7,080nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,586 tons
Complement:
649 - 844
Cost:
£1.975 million / $7.899 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 305 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 2,595 tons, 18.3 %
- Belts: 1,244 tons, 8.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 515 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 773 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,726 tons, 26.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,242 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,932 tons, 13.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 382 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,569 lbs / 7,062 Kg = 73.8 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Mid (66 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 23.17 ft / 7.06 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 192.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,868 Square feet or 2,589 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 563 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
50t: Flag Facilities
57t: Reserve
Range at 12 knots: 11590nm
Range at 15 knots: 7080nm
Range at 25 knots: 1946nm
Range at max speed: 987nm or 31 hours
Guns: A(B)C (X)Y
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser 12x7.5, CSA Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,548 t standard; 15,050 t normal; 16,252 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
638.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 69.00 ft x 23.40 ft (normal load)
194.46 m / 190.50 m x 21.03 m x 7.13 m
Armament:
12 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (4x3 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 2,712 lbs / 1,230 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 160
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 424.00 ft / 129.24 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.50" / 140 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.50" / 114 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 103,000 shp / 76,838 Kw = 31.57 kts
Range 7,130nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,704 tons
Complement:
679 - 883
Cost:
£2.116 million / $8.463 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 358 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 2,695 tons, 17.9 %
- Belts: 1,274 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 541 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 814 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 66 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,838 tons, 25.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,720 tons, 38.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,051 tons, 13.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 390 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,700 lbs / 7,575 Kg = 79.2 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Mid (67 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 23.26 ft / 7.09 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 194.9 %
Waterplane Area: 29,320 Square feet or 2,724 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 590 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
50t: Flag Facilities
65t: Reserve
Range at 12 knots: 11640nm
Range at 15 knots: 7130nm
Range at 25 knots: 1980nm
Range at max speed: 1003nm or 31.77 hours
I agree about the 5x2 vs 4x3 ROF - so on that basis, would go with the lighter design. I wouldn't worry about secondaries so much, as the main battery will be engaging the same kind of targets.
I suppose it's worth asking whether a lesser number of ~9 inch guns is worth considering...
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 28, 2008, 07:52:21 PM
I suppose it's worth asking whether a lesser number of ~9 inch guns is worth considering...
Such as 4x2 9" A(B) (X)Y?
Using the same hull and armor scheme, but mounting 9.2s reduces range by about a third. Considering the mission priority, I suspect the 7.5" guns are the better bargain.
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser 8x9.2 4 mounts, CSA Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
13,330 t light; 13,964 t standard; 15,050 t normal; 15,920 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
638.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 69.00 ft x 23.40 ft (normal load)
194.46 m / 190.50 m x 21.03 m x 7.13 m
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (4x2 guns), 380.00lbs / 172.37kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 3,352 lbs / 1,520 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 175
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.50" / 140 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.50" / 114 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 103,000 shp / 76,838 Kw = 31.57 kts
Range 711nm at 31.57 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,956 tons
Complement:
679 - 883
Cost:
£2.235 million / $8.940 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 431 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 2,749 tons, 18.3 %
- Belts: 1,314 tons, 8.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 555 tons, 3.7 %
- Armour Deck: 814 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 66 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,838 tons, 25.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,935 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,721 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 377 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,314 lbs / 6,946 Kg = 39.3 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Mid (67 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 23.26 ft / 7.09 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 194.9 %
Waterplane Area: 29,320 Square feet or 2,724 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 612 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.60
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
50t: Flag Facilities
52t: Reserve
Range at 12 knots: 8250nm
Range at 15 knots: 5055nm
Range at 25 knots: 1404nm
Range at max speed: 711nm or 22.5 hours
Actually, with a little work, the 9.2" armed ship doesn't look as bad. I'm still a bit concerned that it's not balanced enough though. With this armor, it feels like a light BC...
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser 8x9.2 4 mounts, CSA Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
13,950 t light; 14,603 t standard; 16,010 t normal; 17,136 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
648.00 ft / 635.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 22.50 ft (normal load)
197.51 m / 193.55 m x 22.56 m x 6.86 m
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (4x2 guns), 380.00lbs / 172.37kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 3,352 lbs / 1,520 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 175
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 432.00 ft / 131.67 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.50" / 140 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.50" / 114 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 107,000 shp / 79,822 Kw = 31.51 kts
Range 896nm at 31.51 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,532 tons
Complement:
711 - 925
Cost:
£2.305 million / $9.219 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 431 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 2,821 tons, 17.6 %
- Belts: 1,304 tons, 8.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 555 tons, 3.5 %
- Armour Deck: 893 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 68 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,987 tons, 24.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,316 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,060 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 396 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,063 lbs / 8,193 Kg = 46.4 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Mid (67 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 23.26 ft / 7.09 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 204.3 %
Waterplane Area: 32,186 Square feet or 2,990 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 623 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
50t: Flag Facilities
51t: Reserve
Range at 12 knots: 10405nm
Range at 15 knots: 6370nm
Range at 25 knots: 1763nm
Range at max speed: 896nm or 28.4 hours
Tweak the belt length - you must be at ~104.5 - 104.7%.
Yeah, the size is creeping up there, and the armor starts to look a little light - still, depends on what you expect to see shooting back at her.
Probably pretty close to a buildable ship here:
CSA 2nd Class Cruiser 10x7.5 more armor, CSA Cruiser laid down 1916
Displacement:
12,730 t light; 13,254 t standard; 15,050 t normal; 16,487 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
638.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 69.00 ft x 23.40 ft (normal load)
194.46 m / 190.50 m x 21.03 m x 7.13 m
Armament:
10 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (5x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
2 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (1x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 2,412 lbs / 1,094 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 160
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 416.00 ft / 126.80 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.50" / 140 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.50" / 114 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.50" / 38 mm
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 103,000 shp / 76,838 Kw = 31.57 kts
Range 8,600nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,233 tons
Complement:
679 - 883
Cost:
£2.046 million / $8.185 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 319 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 2,653 tons, 17.6 %
- Belts: 1,254 tons, 8.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 520 tons, 3.5 %
- Armour Deck: 814 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 66 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,838 tons, 25.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,546 tons, 36.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,320 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 2.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,549 lbs / 7,960 Kg = 83.2 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.43 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Mid (66 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 23.17 ft / 7.06 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 193.8 %
Waterplane Area: 29,320 Square feet or 2,724 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 573 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
50t: Flag Facilities
56t: Reserve
Range at 12 knots: 14040nm
Range at 15 knots: 8600nm
Range at 25 knots: 2388nm
Range at max speed: 1210nm or 38.3 hours
The additional secondaries threw your belt length off. Otherwise, it looks pretty solid.
Yeah, I just fixed that above...
Quote from: guinness on November 28, 2008, 07:22:52 PM
The advantages of the 10 guns ship are that I can lay it down a half sooner, it's probably a slightly better ship, it's 750t lighter (which isn't much of an advantage), and I believe that the 5 twins
I agree that the combioned ROF of five twins is probably equal to four triples.
Borys
War planning during the recent crisis has revealed certain deficiencies in the CSA's capability to project power when necessary. The first design to be produced to address these is a new troopship, adapted from Civilian design (and I'm posting this to see if I'm doing this right):
Quote
1916 Amphibious Transport 1912 Engines, CSA Transport laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,450 t light; 13,754 t standard; 14,954 t normal; 15,915 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 543.00 ft x 77.50 ft x 19.90 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 165.51 m x 23.62 m x 6.07 m
Armament:
2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
Weight of broadside 46 lbs / 21 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 21.52 kts
Range 7,765nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,161 tons
Complement:
675 - 878
Cost:
£1.016 million / $4.065 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,037 tons, 6.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,538 tons, 30.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,504 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 7,869 tons, 52.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,603 lbs / 11,613 Kg = 1,194.3 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.31 degrees
Stern overhang: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 27.50 ft / 8.38 m
- Stern: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Average freeboard: 27.56 ft / 8.40 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 243.4 %
Waterplane Area: 31,503 Square feet or 2,927 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 150 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 94 lbs/sq ft or 459 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.13
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weight:
6666 tons: 3333 troops
1000t: 20 Extra motor launches (25t weight each)
678t: Cargo and reserve
25t: Long Range Marconi
Costs: $3.2625 and 3.3625 BP
She's designed well inside the limitations. She's merchant standard.
And an oiler and tender design, built with the same machinery and basic hull:
Quote
1916 Tender Type 2 size 1912 Engines, CSA Tender laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
13,060 t light; 13,458 t standard; 19,643 t normal; 24,592 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 551.00 ft x 72.50 ft x 27.10 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.94 m x 22.10 m x 8.26 m
Armament:
2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all forward
Weight of broadside 46 lbs / 21 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,000 shp / 11,936 Kw = 18.20 kts
Range 54,780nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 11,134 tons
Complement:
829 - 1,078
Cost:
£0.903 million / $3.610 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 638 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,334 tons, 22.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,583 tons, 33.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 8,082 tons, 41.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,672 lbs / 15,274 Kg = 1,570.7 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.94
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.635
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 26
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Mid (59 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m (25.00 ft / 7.62 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 20.68 ft / 6.30 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.1 %
Waterplane Area: 30,183 Square feet or 2,804 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 209 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 94 lbs/sq ft or 457 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weights:
8000t: Tender facilities and cargo, including extra accomodation for 500, workshops, offices, barber shop, library, extra ammunition and stores etc.
57 tons: reserve
25t: Long Range Marconi
Total Tender facilities (including transferable fuel): 16,000 tons.
Costs: $13.06 and 3.265 BP
Quote
1916 Oiler Type 2 size 1912 Engines, CSA Oiler laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
5,900 t light; 6,297 t standard; 19,643 t normal; 30,320 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 551.00 ft x 72.50 ft x 27.10 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.94 m x 22.10 m x 8.26 m
Armament:
2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all forward
Weight of broadside 46 lbs / 21 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,000 shp / 11,936 Kw = 18.20 kts
Range 119,215nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 24,023 tons
Complement:
829 - 1,078
Cost:
£0.492 million / $1.970 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 638 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,232 tons, 21.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 13,743 tons, 70.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,024 tons, 5.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
129,938 lbs / 58,939 Kg = 6,061.3 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 15.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.86
Metacentric height 8.4 ft / 2.6 m
Roll period: 10.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.635
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Mid (74 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m (25.00 ft / 7.62 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 19.33 ft / 5.89 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 18.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.4 %
Waterplane Area: 30,183 Square feet or 2,804 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 836 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 453 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weights:
25t: Long Range Marconi
999: Cargo, stores and reserve
Costs: $1.475 and 1.475BP
Quote from: maddox on December 14, 2008, 02:48:30 PM
She's designed well inside the limitations. She's merchant standard.
Yeah, that's what I was assuming. I missed the costs line at the bottom of the report when I copy/pasted it though, which I fixed above.
The rules for auxiliaries(assuming you want to pay merchant rules $$$) are taking a bit more effort to get my head around.
Can I order a few of each too?
Quote from: maddox on December 14, 2008, 02:52:44 PM
Can I order a few of each too?
Maybe. :)
I need to figure out what I'm building in 1915-1916 now that the business in Africa is over...
Two design studies for the next two classes of Confederate Torpedo Rams. The first is a study for a new class of leaders, designed to allow the commander of a TR squadron and his (meager) staff a little more room to work, and more importantly, large enough to ship a long-range wireless set. The second is the design for a successor to the E-Class fleet Torpedo Rams. Both would ship the new 4.75" 50-pounder gun, with the leader carrying twin mounts as well.
Quote
TR-250 ("F-Class"), CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1916
Displacement:
1,375 t light; 1,437 t standard; 1,637 t normal; 1,798 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
355.00 ft / 350.00 ft x 34.00 ft x 11.20 ft (normal load)
108.21 m / 106.68 m x 10.36 m x 3.41 m
Armament:
5 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (3 mounts), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 254 lbs / 115 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 34,000 shp / 25,364 Kw = 32.09 kts
Range 5,975nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 362 tons
Complement:
128 - 167
Cost:
£0.323 million / $1.290 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 34 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 860 tons, 52.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 375 tons, 22.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 262 tons, 16.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 93 tons, 5.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
321 lbs / 145 Kg = 6.0 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.82
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.430
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 86
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.10 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 18.75 ft / 5.72 m
- Mid (33 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.23 ft / 3.73 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 191.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.8 %
Waterplane Area: 7,473 Square feet or 694 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 144 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.94
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
25 tons: Long Range Wireless
10 tons: Captain(TR) facilities
12 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
15 tons: Reserve
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.06
Quote
G-Class, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1916
Displacement:
1,135 t light; 1,185 t standard; 1,351 t normal; 1,483 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
344.00 ft / 338.00 ft x 32.75 ft x 10.05 ft (normal load)
104.85 m / 103.02 m x 9.98 m x 3.06 m
Armament:
4 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 204 lbs / 93 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 30,500 shp / 22,753 Kw = 32.07 kts
Range 5,514nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 298 tons
Complement:
110 - 144
Cost:
£0.266 million / $1.064 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 27 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 11 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 714 tons, 52.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 331 tons, 24.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 215 tons, 16.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 53 tons, 3.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
284 lbs / 129 Kg = 5.3 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.80
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.425
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.38 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 87
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.95 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 18.25 ft / 5.56 m
- Mid (34 %): 16.50 ft / 5.03 m (8.50 ft / 2.59 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Stern: 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Average freeboard: 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.8 %
Waterplane Area: 6,926 Square feet or 643 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.93
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
12 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
12 tons: Reserve
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.05
QuoteArmament:
5 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (3 mounts), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
I'm guessing that's supposed to be A(Twin) X(Single) Y(Twin)?
Quote from: Sachmle on January 01, 2009, 08:26:24 PM
I'm guessing that's supposed to be A(Twin) X(Single) Y(Twin)?
Correct, subject to whether or not I draw it and it looks funny :)
At least so far, Confederate thinking leans toward symmetrical armament fore and aft, with any extra gun or guns aft. The thinking is that the extra gun or guns would be of more use when turning away from a torpedo attack then when trying to fight through one.
I'm also thinking about designs with two singles in A and B positions superfiring, with a twin in X superfired by a single in Y, and something more like the classic US arrangement of 5 single mounts. Both would cost reserve weight and a little stability.
Some Japanese designs did the twin---single/twin thing and looked okay.
What about the German layout of twin forward, three singles aft?
Both designs look good even though they aren't 1,500 t max-sized boats.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on January 02, 2009, 08:07:10 AM
Some Japanese designs did the twin---single/twin thing and looked okay.
What about the German layout of twin forward, three singles aft?
Both designs look good even though they aren't 1,500 t max-sized boats.
I'm not sure about three singles aft, as I suspect the arcs may be less efficient. I also did a 6 gun (3 twins with two mounts at either end, or 2 twins and two singles symmetrical) which is just barely (a hundredth of a knot) slower and 25 tons heavier. That feels like overgunning though.
As far as the 1500t limit: This started as an exercise to see how much boat I could get by modifying the E-class, so I see both as a natural evolution. I expect the CSA will nose up to the 1500t limit soon enough though. For now, saving 300ish tons or more a boat means I can build more boats :)
Quote from: guinness on January 01, 2009, 07:51:04 PM
Armament:
5 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (3 mounts), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
Quote from: guinness on January 01, 2009, 08:37:30 PM
Quote from: Sachmle on January 01, 2009, 08:26:24 PM
I'm guessing that's supposed to be A(Twin) X(Single) Y(Twin)?
Correct, subject to whether or not I draw it and it looks funny :)
Twin mounts must be in mount and hoist:
QuoteTwin gun mounts requires hoists, and they are power operated.
This gives them more then twice the weight per barrel compared to singles, so IMO not worth it unless you want more then six guns.
Bah! Another rule that's not 100% accurate historically...
The only reason I'd opt for twins here is to shorten length required to save some deck space and avoid superfiring forward. :(
Here's a 5 single mounts version:
Quote
TTR-250 ("F-Class") 5 singles, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1916
Displacement:
1,380 t light; 1,442 t standard; 1,645 t normal; 1,807 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
355.00 ft / 350.00 ft x 34.00 ft x 11.25 ft (normal load)
108.21 m / 106.68 m x 10.36 m x 3.43 m
Armament:
5 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 254 lbs / 115 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 34,000 shp / 25,364 Kw = 32.07 kts
Range 6,020nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 365 tons
Complement:
128 - 167
Cost:
£0.324 million / $1.294 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 34 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 864 tons, 52.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 377 tons, 22.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 264 tons, 16.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 93 tons, 5.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
321 lbs / 145 Kg = 6.0 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.81
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.430
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 86
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.10 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 18.75 ft / 5.72 m
- Mid (33 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.23 ft / 3.73 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 191.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.8 %
Waterplane Area: 7,473 Square feet or 694 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 144 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.94
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
25 tons: Long Range Wireless
10 tons: Captain(TR) facilities
12 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
17 tons: Reserve
Range at 15 knots: 3596 nm
Range at 20 knots: 1724 nm
Range at 25 knots: 915 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 614 nm
Range at max speed: 421 nm (13.1 hours)
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.06
Quote from: guinness on January 02, 2009, 12:15:23 PM
Bah! Another rule that's not 100% accurate historically...
Full of ahistorical rules N-verse is ...
Borys
Quote from: Borys on January 02, 2009, 12:52:47 PM
Quote from: guinness on January 02, 2009, 12:15:23 PM
Bah! Another rule that's not 100% accurate historically...
Full of ahistorical rules N-verse is ...
Borys
Of course it is, it's not REAL LIFE.
Quote from: Borys on January 02, 2009, 12:52:47 PM
Quote from: guinness on January 02, 2009, 12:15:23 PM
Bah! Another rule that's not 100% accurate historically...
Full of ahistorical rules N-verse is ...
Borys
If you want ahistorical gun arrangement, what's the problem with that?
The CSA has a continuing need for small, cheap, easy to operation ships to patrol its very long coastline and operate in and around Haiti, the Bahamas, and the Florida Keys.
One outstanding question is: could this be built to the merchant rules? Just going by armament and armor weights, I think so, but I suspect the considerable functional misc. weights might rule that out.
Quote
1916 Sloop, CSA Sloop laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)
Displacement:
300 t light; 314 t standard; 424 t normal; 512 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
195.00 ft / 185.00 ft x 20.25 ft x 7.48 ft (normal load)
59.44 m / 56.39 m x 6.17 m x 2.28 m
Armament:
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline amidships
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
1 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 44 lbs / 20 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm -
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,000 shp / 1,492 Kw = 18.14 kts
Range 6,100nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 198 tons
Complement:
46 - 60
Cost:
£0.039 million / $0.155 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 80 tons, 18.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 179 tons, 42.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 124 tons, 29.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 34 tons, 8.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
837 lbs / 380 Kg = 39.0 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.45 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Mid (58 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 11.22 ft / 3.42 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.0 %
Waterplane Area: 2,566 Square feet or 238 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 176 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 142 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.80
- Longitudinal: 7.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc weight used for mission specific equipment, which can include:
Minesweeping Gear (15 tons)
Two Extra Motor Launches (4 tons)
Accommodations for up to a 15 man shore party (30 tons)
34 mines (34 tons)
Long Range Wireless set (25 tons)
If there were no minelaying capability, I'd be content to see her built to merchie standards.
My sense is that she's got a lot of bunkerage for a coastal patrol vessel...
Yeah but she's got plenty of range for spying on Cartagena. One secondary role for these would be coastal escort in case of war, the range will go to good use.
As far as merchant standard: I'm torn. A large number of these would have most utility if they are somewhat flexible, but too much flexibility is probably inappropriate for the period too. I see them in a general coastal patrol version carrying the small shore party, in a patrol version carrying the long range wireless, as a minesweeper, and as a minelayer. I expect the long-range wireless equipped version will have to be roughly dedicated (though convertible later as part of a refit), and I expect the version carrying the extra accommodations would require a similar refit to change roles, but I believe the sweeper/layer versions can be interchangeable with only a day or two in port.
So, at least the sweeper/layer would need to be built to full merchant standards. So if I do that, it seems most appropriate that they all get built that way.
Too bad we don't give ourselves a series production discount. ;)
QuoteToo bad we don't give ourselves a series production discount.
To early.. and no reason to build ships that way..... It's not a Liberty class freighter or Cassablanca class escort carrier.
CSS Virginia is overdue for a refit. She also limits the battlefleet tactically because she is nearly 2 knots slower than the rest of the ships currently in service. This is a study of a refurbishment, including re-engining her with modern boilers and turbines:
Quote
CSS Virginia Refit, CSA Battleship laid down 1905 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
17,500 t light; 18,401 t standard; 19,255 t normal; 19,938 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 24.38 m x 6.71 m
Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
20 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,008 lbs / 4,086 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 5.25" / 133 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 5.25" / 133 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 3.45" / 88 mm 14.7" / 373 mm
2nd: 5.25" / 133 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25,000 shp / 18,650 Kw = 20.35 kts
Range 7,920nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,537 tons
Complement:
816 - 1,062
Cost:
£1.693 million / $6.774 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,132 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 8,168 tons, 42.4 %
- Belts: 3,888 tons, 20.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,810 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,243 tons, 11.7 %
- Conning Tower: 228 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 931 tons, 4.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,869 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,755 tons, 9.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,164 lbs / 13,682 Kg = 24.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.38
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.696
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 17.12 ft / 5.22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.3 %
Waterplane Area: 35,147 Square feet or 3,265 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 714 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.23
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weight:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
10t: Short Range Marconi
50t: Flag Facilities
65t: Reserve and other items
Costs:
Refurbishment Cost: $3.45
New Armament: $0.42, 0.21 BP
New Machinery: $1.86, 0.93 BP
New Armor: $0.19, 0.19 BP
Fire Control and Functional Misc: $0.26, 0.26 BP
Non-functional misc: $0.11, 0.11 BP
Totals: $6.29, 1.7 BP
Time: 8 months (minimum)
It is expected that refits to the Nuevo Leons in the near future will also be fairly costly, so designers were also asked to consider reuse of materials from the 4 semi-dreadnoughts in two new ships. In the end, they concluded that only the main armament mounts, minus their original armor, could likely be reused, with the rest of the ships scrapped. The main advantage of these ships would be that they would have speed equal to the Tennessees and a "modern" armor arrangement.
Quote
Vanguarding Concept, CSA Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
30,720 t light; 32,432 t standard; 34,287 t normal; 35,770 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
688.00 ft / 675.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 27.18 ft (normal load)
209.70 m / 205.74 m x 31.39 m x 8.29 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all amidships
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16,210 lbs / 7,353 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 437.00 ft / 133.20 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 437.00 ft / 133.20 m 29.50 ft / 8.99 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.5" / 368 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 14.5" / 368 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
3rd: 1.50" / 38 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
4th: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.50" / 368 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 52,668 shp / 39,290 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 8,360nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,338 tons
Complement:
1,259 - 1,637
Cost:
£5.529 million / $22.114 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,013 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 12,500 tons, 36.5 %
- Belts: 3,980 tons, 11.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 954 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 3,835 tons, 11.2 %
- Armour Deck: 3,401 tons, 9.9 %
- Conning Tower: 330 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,962 tons, 5.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,829 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,567 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 415 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
53,137 lbs / 24,103 Kg = 43.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 9.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.635
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.52 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.50 ft / 8.69 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (56 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 21.09 ft / 6.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.2 %
Waterplane Area: 52,530 Square feet or 4,880 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 967 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
50 t Flag Facilities
65t: Reserve
Cost adjustments:
Main armament from previous ships: 1845t, $1.85 and 1.85 BP
Scrap value of previous ships:
Virginia: $2.45 and 2.45 BP
Nuevo Leon: $2.41 and 2.41 BP
Total of salvage and scrapped material: $6.71 and 6.71 BP
Adjusted cost: $23.99 and 23.99 BP
Yeah... the NL's are pretty much outclassed all the way around these days.
Best thing to do is to use what you can and get rid of them.
I like the Vanguard... good ship for a very good value.
They would be effective ships - but if everything except the guns is new, why not just spend the additional ~3 BP to get newer guns?
Well, the Vanguarded one started out as an effort to reuse some armor and gun mounts. I think if I work a little harder at it, I could reuse the face armor from the main gun mounts as well, which would save me a few hundred more tons. I'm not so sure about any of the belt though. The NL's have 13.7" belts that are 12 feet tall. I suppose if enough of that material could be reused to fit out 2/3 of the new ships belts, there would be significant savings there too, but I have no idea if that is possible. And what about barbettes too? Could they be cut out and reassembled in a new ship?
If I just scrapped the semi-dreads, I'd have around $10 and 10BP to pour into successors to the Tennessees. That would save me about 1/6 of the cost of a pair of those which isn't bad either. I suppose all 24 of those old 13.5" guns could get emplaced somewhere on land too.
The other good reason to reuse them though would be to force myself to draw a 6 turreted ship ;)
I'm sure I could come up with some intractable Congress or Woodrow Wilson in the White House story.
Quote from: guinness on March 16, 2009, 07:31:57 AM
Well, the Vanguarded one started out as an effort to reuse some armor and gun mounts. I think if I work a little harder at it, I could reuse the face armor from the main gun mounts as well, which would save me a few hundred more tons. I'm not so sure about any of the belt though. The NL's have 13.7" belts that are 12 feet tall. I suppose if enough of that material could be reused to fit out 2/3 of the new ships belts, there would be significant savings there too, but I have no idea if that is possible. And what about barbettes too? Could they be cut out and reassembled in a new ship?
I would not recommend re-using the armour, as the NLs do not have Krupp (1900-tech) armour but compound (1890 tech)-armour.
I haven't been sure about when the CSA achieved Krupp Cemented, as the data I have only goes back to 1/1908 (ie a year too late). Maybe Carthaginian can help me out here.
Quote from: guinness on March 16, 2009, 08:02:03 AM
I haven't been sure about when the CSA achieved Krupp Cemented, as the data I have only goes back to 1/1908 (ie a year too late). Maybe Carthaginian can help me out here.
Looking at the reports it was still researched in 2/1907 when the ships was laid down, so no krupp armour.
blech. I guess I'll have to find another excuse to build a Confederate turret farm ;D
IIRC, all ships were awarded Krupp
Quote from: Korpen on March 16, 2009, 08:05:45 AM
Quote from: guinness on March 16, 2009, 08:02:03 AM
I haven't been sure about when the CSA achieved Krupp Cemented, as the data I have only goes back to 1/1908 (ie a year too late). Maybe Carthaginian can help me out here.
Looking at the reports it was still researched in 2/1907 when the ships was laid down, so no krupp armour.
EDIT - the last of the NL's had Krupp armor... not the first two.
;)
Edit-Edit:
Also, the Harvey-Nickel armor was, according to P3D in this post, rolled into KC armor in 1910 with a rules change... not into compound. ;)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1178.msg20741#msg20741 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1178.msg20741#msg20741)
Hmmm... interesting.
Even if I could reuse all that armor, I'd still have to refigure for the existing thicknesses. There's also the question of the 16 foot tall belt in the new design, versus the 12 foot tall one in the old design, which might still make this undoable.
Since it's Friday night and I've got nothing better to do, I've been kicking around an even more radical reconstruction for the semi-dreads.
It's a..... really fast pre-dread!
The amidships turret and barbette is removed and replaced with new more powerful machinery. In addition, freeboard forward is raised by addition of a third deck and a little bit of a clipper bow.
And no, it's probably not worth it, but I figured I'd share anyway.
Quote
CSS Nuevo Leon Fast Reconstruction, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 17,814 t standard; 18,852 t normal; 19,682 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
558.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
170.08 m / 167.64 m x 24.99 m x 6.71 m
Armament:
4 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,508 lbs / 2,952 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 116
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.7" / 348 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 5.25" / 133 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 5.25" / 133 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 3.50" / 89 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 5.25" / 133 mm - 3.45" / 88 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
- Armour deck: 3.45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,500 shp / 35,435 Kw = 24.14 kts
Range 6,710nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,867 tons
Complement:
803 - 1,045
Cost:
£1.535 million / $6.140 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 824 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 7,415 tons, 39.3 %
- Belts: 3,709 tons, 19.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,246 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,236 tons, 11.9 %
- Conning Tower: 224 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,770 tons, 9.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,634 tons, 35.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,852 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 357 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,457 lbs / 13,815 Kg = 24.8 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.665
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.71 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.44 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (46 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 19.68 ft / 6.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.5 %
Waterplane Area: 35,026 Square feet or 3,254 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 677 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weight:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Wireless
10t: Short Range Wireless
50t: Flag Facilities
22t: Reserve and Misc Equipment
Costs:
Refurbishment cost: $4.25
New Armament: $0.49, 0.25 BP
New Armor: $0.23, 0.23 BP
New Machinery: $3.5, 1.77 BP
Fire Control and Functional Misc: $0.26, 0.26 BP
Non-functional misc: $0.77
Totals: $9.50 and 3.28 BP
Time: 13 months (minimum)
If you're going to start thinking that far outside the box, why not consider the standard question of "Would a converted PDN make a good amphibious warfare ship?"
That's an idea too, but first, this:
Lengthen her by 45 feet, inserting a section toward the bow, and a new section aft of the second turret housing a new 4th turret. Beam increases slightly where the plug was inserted amidships, and BC goes up a little bit (longer almost parallel hull section).
It's costly, but actually results in a pretty effective little ship:
Quote
CSS Nuevo Leon 4th turret reconstruction, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
19,300 t light; 20,438 t standard; 21,206 t normal; 21,820 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
595.00 ft / 595.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
181.36 m / 181.36 m x 25.60 m x 6.71 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10,908 lbs / 4,948 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 116
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.7" / 348 mm 395.00 ft / 120.40 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 5.25" / 133 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 5.25" / 133 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 3.50" / 89 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 5.25" / 133 mm - 3.45" / 88 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25,000 shp / 18,650 Kw = 20.16 kts
Range 6,440nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,382 tons
Complement:
878 - 1,142
Cost:
£1.945 million / $7.780 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,356 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 8,716 tons, 41.1 %
- Belts: 3,999 tons, 18.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,975 tons, 9.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,500 tons, 11.8 %
- Conning Tower: 243 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 931 tons, 4.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,896 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,906 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,427 lbs / 14,255 Kg = 25.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.675
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.39 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.80 ft / 5.12 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.0 %
Waterplane Area: 39,170 Square feet or 3,639 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 750 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weight:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Wireless
10t: Short Range Wireless
50t: Flag Facilities
26t: Reserve and Misc Equipment
Costs:
Reconstruction cost: $4.25, 1.70 BP
New Armament: $0.86, 0.43 BP
New Armor: $0.61, 0.23 BP
New Machinery: $1.90, 0.95 BP
Fire Control and Functional Misc: $0.26, 0.26 BP
Non-functional misc: $0.76
Changes to hull: $4.6 and 4.6 BP
Totals: $13.24 and 8.17 BP
Time: 17 months (minimum)
With 20 kts, she's also fit to fall in the French Battleline. A rather elegant solution to a difficult problem.
France can't build a $13.24 6.47bp BB in 17 months.
Quote from: guinness on March 20, 2009, 07:40:34 PM
That's an idea too, but first, this:
Lengthen her by 45 feet, inserting a section toward the bow, and a new section aft of the second turret housing a new 4th turret. Beam increases slightly where the plug was inserted amidships, and BC goes up a little bit (longer almost parallel hull section).
It's costly, but actually results in a pretty effective little ship:
CSS Nuevo Leon 4th turret reconstruction, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1916)
Costs:
Refurbishment cost: $4.25
It is not a refurbishment, but a reconstruction, so there is a 10% BP cost as well (but I see you used the reconstruction price).
Korpen: Indeed, I've updated the calculations above. I need to make myself a refit/refurb/reconstruction spreadsheet...
Maddox: I think I'd still like to find a way to work in some sort of underwater protection, so I'm still working on a version that's got bulges too, but yeah, I'm pretty happy with this.
Doesn't yet mean I'm going to do it though :)
One more tiresome iteration:
This one is lengthened by 27.5 feet amidships (5%), and bulged. The 4th turret is added, and secondary etc. batteries updated. Machinery is replaced with modern, range increased, and a few little other detail changes.
I did a spreadsheet today to try to encapsulate all the Overhaul, Refit, Refurb, Reconstruction rules, and used that to calculate the costs. There could be bugs in the spreadsheet still, but I'm pretty confident the costs came out correctly.
These ships would be broadly equivalent in capability to the Oklahoma class, maybe even a little bit better protected. The refit would cost about 70% in $ and 46% in BP compared to a new Oklahoma. Of course, the conversion time is also only about 54% as long as the new construction time of an Oklahoma as well.
So there is still the question of whether or not it would be worth it.
Quote
CSS Nuevo Leon 4th turret reconstruction bulges, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
19,100 t light; 20,260 t standard; 21,161 t normal; 21,882 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
577.50 ft / 577.50 ft x 82.00 ft (Bulges 89.00 ft) x 22.00 ft (normal load)
176.02 m / 176.02 m x 24.99 m (Bulges 27.13 m) x 6.71 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,208 lbs / 5,084 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 116
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.7" / 348 mm 367.50 ft / 112.01 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 5.25" / 133 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5.25" / 133 mm 327.50 ft / 99.82 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.7" / 373 mm 3.50" / 89 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 5.25" / 133 mm - 3.45" / 88 mm
3rd: - 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25,000 shp / 18,650 Kw = 20.11 kts
Range 7,780nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,621 tons
Complement:
876 - 1,140
Cost:
£1.973 million / $7.891 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,398 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 8,483 tons, 40.1 %
- Belts: 3,871 tons, 18.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,044 tons, 9.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,326 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Tower: 242 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 931 tons, 4.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,888 tons, 37.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,061 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,201 lbs / 13,699 Kg = 24.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.655
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.49 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 16.64 ft / 5.07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.8 %
Waterplane Area: 36,443 Square feet or 3,386 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 778 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weight:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Wireless
10t: Short Range Wireless
50t: Flag Facilities
65t: Reserve and Misc Equipment
Base Cost: $4.25 1.70
Armament: 583 $1.17 0.58
Machinery: 931 $1.86 0.93
Armor: 926 $0.93 0.93
Other Functional Misc: 260 $0.26 0.26
Hull, Fittings, and Equipment: 0 $4.20 4.20
Fuel, Ammunition, Stores: 217 $0.11 0.00
Other Non-Functional Misc: 115 $0.06 0.00
Total Costs: $12.83 8.60
Time to Complete: 15 Months
A pretty cheap way to achieve parity with one's adversaries...
Not a bad design.
Something a little different. A 1500t Torpedo Ram, designed for two roles: first to add hulls and eyes to the Confederate scouting force, and second as a tradition flotilla leader.
Quote
Large TR Concept, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,554 t standard; 1,803 t normal; 2,002 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 370.00 ft x 34.75 ft x 11.42 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 112.78 m x 10.59 m x 3.48 m
Armament:
3 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1917 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 154 lbs / 70 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 35,000 shp / 26,110 Kw = 32.12 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 449 tons
Complement:
137 - 179
Cost:
£0.373 million / $1.494 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 21 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 9 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 9 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 969 tons, 53.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 413 tons, 22.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 303 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 89 tons, 4.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
408 lbs / 185 Kg = 7.6 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 10.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.95
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.430
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.10 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (37 %): 17.50 ft / 5.33 m (9.50 ft / 2.90 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Stern: 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Average freeboard: 12.98 ft / 3.96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.7 %
Waterplane Area: 8,074 Square feet or 750 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 63 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 143 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.95
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
25 tons: Long Range Wireless
10 tons: Captain(TR) facilities
12 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
13 tons: Reserve
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.24
Trial Speed: 32.79 knots
Range at 15 knots: 4250 nm
Range at 20 knots: 2040 nm
Range at 25 knots: 1095 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 739 nm
Range at top speed: 507 nm
My recollection is that your previous torpedo ram had more guns and almost as much speed - what does this design give you that the previous ones lacked?
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on May 26, 2009, 07:05:02 AM
My recollection is that your previous torpedo ram had more guns and almost as much speed - what does this design give you that the previous ones lacked?
The last one built has 4x4" guns (120lb broadside) and 6x20" torpedoes. This one has 3x4.75" guns (150lb broadside) and 6x21" torpedoes. It also has a little bit more speed, 1000nm more range, and significantly better accommodation and seakeeping.
The difference is the roles. This one is also going to have about a 100 foot tall spotting top and is designed to cruise comfortably with the light cruisers and battlecruisers of the scouting force, even in heavier seas. The idea being that instead of building 6 more light cruisers, about 20ish of these can be built and can perform the same tactical scouting function. Plus, unlike 12 light cruisers, 20 of these might actually be able to make a run at and sink a BC or two.
These aren't to be built instead of another class of fleet boats. I'm also working on a smaller regular fleet boat with the same armament but less range and other extras on about 1050 tons to follow up the previous E-class.
Okay, I missed the larger gun consideration, and the accommodation/seakeeping are important with the functions you have in mind.
So, in that case, have at it...
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on May 26, 2009, 07:49:47 AM
Okay, I missed the larger gun consideration, and the accommodation/seakeeping are important with the functions you have in mind.
So, in that case, have at it...
Good, because the illustration is about half done already :P
DDs are fun to do art for, because you can finish them in a couple of nights, unlike the two week+ effort a new capital ship takes.
I'll be sure to voice arbitrary objections to your capital ships much earlier, then.
Look forward to seeing the picture...
Because I'm stuck on a conference call for an event tonight...
A liner!
Quote
Leviathan, Confederate States of America Liner laid down 1920
Displacement:
40,440 t light; 41,439 t standard; 49,963 t normal; 56,783 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
885.00 ft / 864.50 ft x 102.00 ft x 30.51 ft (normal load)
269.75 m / 263.50 m x 31.09 m x 9.30 m
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 146,026 shp / 108,936 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,193nm at 23.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 15,343 tons
Complement:
1,670 - 2,172
Cost:
£5.035 million / $20.140 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 5,106 tons, 10.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,384 tons, 26.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,523 tons, 19.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 21,950 tons, 43.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
70,139 lbs / 31,815 Kg = 649.4 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 42.00 ft / 12.80 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 40.00 ft / 12.19 m (32.00 ft / 9.75 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 39.00 ft / 11.89 m (31.00 ft / 9.45 m before break)
- Stern: 42.00 ft / 12.80 m
- Average freeboard: 33.72 ft / 10.28 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 236.9 %
Waterplane Area: 67,550 Square feet or 6,276 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 155 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 642 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily
Misc Weight (Liner):
50t: Two Long Range Wireless Sets
6800t: 400 1st Class Passengers
5100t: 600 2nd Class Passengers
7000t: 1750 3rd Class Passengers
3000t: Cargo
Misc Weights (as troop transport):
50t: Two long range wireless sets
18900t: Between 7000 and 9500 troops (depending on distance to be traveled)
3000t: Cargo
No!!!!!!!
Looks pretty good - dare I ask if you're going to sim her with an armament?
I could... But I'd want to keep it under the 2% rule line.
But honestly one or two of these charging about the oceans have way too much value just hauling troops to me. It would take a BC to catch them, and they wouldn't be travelling alone.
Just for fun, here's one with AMC sort of armament:
Quote
Leviathan with armament, Confederate States of America Liner laid down 1920
Displacement:
40,318 t light; 41,439 t standard; 49,963 t normal; 56,783 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
885.00 ft / 864.50 ft x 102.00 ft x 30.51 ft (normal load)
269.75 m / 263.50 m x 31.09 m x 9.30 m
Armament:
2 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 760 lbs / 345 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 146,026 shp / 108,936 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,193nm at 23.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 15,343 tons
Complement:
1,670 - 2,172
Cost:
£5.234 million / $20.936 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 105 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,106 tons, 10.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,473 tons, 27.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,645 tons, 19.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 21,634 tons, 43.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
69,212 lbs / 31,394 Kg = 832.0 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 31
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 42.00 ft / 12.80 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 40.00 ft / 12.19 m (32.00 ft / 9.75 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 39.00 ft / 11.89 m (31.00 ft / 9.45 m before break)
- Stern: 42.00 ft / 12.80 m
- Average freeboard: 33.72 ft / 10.28 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 236.9 %
Waterplane Area: 67,550 Square feet or 6,276 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 153 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 646 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weight (Liner):
50t: Two Long Range Wireless Sets
6800t: 400 1st Class Passengers
5100t: 600 2nd Class Passengers
6684t: 1750 3rd Class Passengers
3000t: Cargo
Misc Weights (as troop transport):
50t: Two long range wireless sets
18314t: Between 7000 and 9500 troops (depending on distance to be traveled)
3000t: Cargo
Quote from: Guinness on June 11, 2009, 07:40:32 PM
I could... But I'd want to keep it under the 2% rule line.
But honestly one or two of these charging about the oceans have way too much value just hauling troops to me. It would take a BC to catch them, and they wouldn't be travelling alone.
Commerce raiders should operate alone. If they need an escort with about the same armament, there's no need to send such a big ship into the seas, as I don't see anything a 5000t cruiser escort could not do but an 40,000t commerce raider could (besides soaking up damage).
Also, for liners I prefer to declare range at close to max speed (say 28kts in this case). The machinery is there to steam fast all the way, unlike naval vessels which are operating around 12kts 90% the time.
Quote from: P3D on June 12, 2009, 12:49:13 PM
Commerce raiders should operate alone. If they need an escort with about the same armament, there's no need to send such a big ship into the seas, as I don't see anything a 5000t cruiser escort could not do but an 40,000t commerce raider could (besides soaking up damage).
This is why I find this ship more valuable just for hauling troops around.
Quote
Also, for liners I prefer to declare range at close to max speed (say 28kts in this case). The machinery is there to steam fast all the way, unlike naval vessels which are operating around 12kts 90% the time.
This was a question of trying to figure out just what I wanted her "cruising speed" to be. At 27.5 knots, the range is 5050 nm. Could probably easily be 7000nm if I use up some of the extra misc weight it's got.
And today's I'm working but I'd rather not be designs: a destroyer and minelayer that might go in an emergency CSA building program in 1917 (should such a thing prove necessary):
Quote
500t Emergency TR, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
500 t light; 520 t standard; 603 t normal; 669 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
271.00 ft / 263.00 ft x 23.90 ft x 7.99 ft (normal load)
82.60 m / 80.16 m x 7.28 m x 2.44 m
Armament:
3 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 62 lbs / 28 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,000 shp / 11,936 Kw = 30.17 kts
Range 4,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 150 tons
Complement:
60 - 79
Cost:
£0.123 million / $0.493 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 8 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 310 tons, 51.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 172 tons, 28.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 102 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 1.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
163 lbs / 74 Kg = 7.6 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.88
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.22 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 80
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.95 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (42 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Stern: 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Average freeboard: 10.29 ft / 3.14 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.8 %
Waterplane Area: 3,919 Square feet or 364 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 110 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Trial Speed: 32.53 knots
Misc Weights: 8 tons: 4 21 inch torpedoes, 2 tons: forward gun shield (1" armor)
Range at max speed: 353 nm, 11.7 hours
Range at 28.5 knots: 417 nm, 14.6
Range at 25 nnots: 632 nm, 25.3 hours
Range at 20 knots: 1224 nm
Range at 15 knots: 2637 nm
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.02
and a minelayer derivative:
Quote
500t Emergency TR Minelayer, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
500 t light; 517 t standard; 600 t normal; 667 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
274.00 ft / 263.00 ft x 23.90 ft x 7.96 ft (normal load)
83.51 m / 80.16 m x 7.28 m x 2.43 m
Armament:
2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 42 lbs / 19 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,500 shp / 10,071 Kw = 29.01 kts
Range 4,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 149 tons
Complement:
59 - 78
Cost:
£0.117 million / $0.467 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 300 tons, 49.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 164 tons, 27.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 100 tons, 16.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 31 tons, 5.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
177 lbs / 80 Kg = 8.2 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.22 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.95 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (42 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Stern: 8.50 ft / 2.59 m
- Average freeboard: 10.29 ft / 3.14 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.6 %
Waterplane Area: 3,919 Square feet or 364 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 55 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 105 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Trial Speed: 31.3 knots
Misc Weights: 29 tons: 29 mines, 2 tons: forward gun shield (1" armor)
Range at max speed: 396 nm, 13.66 hours
Range at 25 knots: 634 nm, 25.36 hours
Range at 20 knots: 1229 nm
Range at 15 knots: 2646 nm
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.04
The next generation Confederate fleet torpedo ram, which is likely to be built alongside the preceding F-class. While the F-class is intended to screen and scout with the scouting force, the G-class is purely for screening the battlefleet:
Quote
G-Class 4x4.75, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
1,150 t light; 1,202 t standard; 1,385 t normal; 1,531 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
350.00 ft / 345.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 10.45 ft (normal load)
106.68 m / 105.16 m x 9.75 m x 3.19 m
Armament:
4 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1918 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 203 lbs / 92 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 210
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 30,000 shp / 22,380 Kw = 31.99 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 329 tons
Complement:
113 - 147
Cost:
£0.330 million / $1.318 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 27 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 11 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 726 tons, 52.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 336 tons, 24.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 234 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 3.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
301 lbs / 136 Kg = 5.6 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.86
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 81
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.70 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.75 ft / 5.41 m
- Mid (40 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 11.80 ft / 3.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.1 %
Waterplane Area: 6,883 Square feet or 639 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 55 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 138 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.94
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
12 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
9 tons: Reserve
Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.12
Trial Speed: 32.84
Range at 15 knots: 3605 nm
Range at 20 knots: 1730 nm
Range at 25 knots: 925 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 620 nm, 21.75 hours
Range at top speed: 429 nm, 13.4 hours
A economy TB. Something to dump the extra BP into. Built to civilian standard.
Haiti, CSA Economy Civilian TB laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
200 t light; 206 t standard; 230 t normal; 249 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
201.05 ft / 200.00 ft x 16.80 ft x 6.30 ft (normal load)
61.28 m / 60.96 m x 5.12 m x 1.92 m
Armament:
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.72kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
1 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
3 - 14.0" / 355.6 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
No drive to shaft, 1 shaft, 5,169 shp / 3,856 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 3,300nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 43 tons (10% coal)
Complement:
29 - 38
Cost:
£0.051 million / $0.204 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 116 tons, 50.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 77 tons, 33.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 30 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 1.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
76 lbs / 35 Kg = 3.6 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 9.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.380
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Mid (50 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.32 ft / 2.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.8 %
Waterplane Area: 1,933 Square feet or 180 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 55 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 17 lbs/sq ft or 82 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.44
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Being from Texas I would have thought you would realise the CSA fleet dosnt use coal for anything...
I do. The thing is, it needs to be able to use whatever is availible. And there are substanial coal mines in Virgina. The whole point of this ship is to use whatever's availible.
6 tons of weapons on a 230ton is 2.6%, not able to be built to Civilian standards.
Altered. Torpedoes are now Type 1890, but modifed so that it runs on more modern fuel.
Haiti, CSA Economy Civilian TB laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
200 t light; 207 t standard; 230 t normal; 248 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
200.96 ft / 200.00 ft x 16.80 ft x 6.30 ft (normal load)
61.25 m / 60.96 m x 5.12 m x 1.92 m
Armament:
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline aft
1 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
3 - 14.0" / 355.6 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
2nd: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
No drive to shaft, 1 shaft, 6,064 shp / 4,524 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 3,200nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 42 tons (10% coal)
Complement:
29 - 38
Cost:
£0.052 million / $0.208 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 0 tons, 0.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 119 tons, 51.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 76 tons, 33.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 30 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
73 lbs / 33 Kg = 3.4 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.38
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 9.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.380
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 7.90 ft / 2.41 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.90 ft / 2.41 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.90 ft / 2.41 m
- Stern: 7.90 ft / 2.41 m
- Average freeboard: 8.15 ft / 2.48 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.9 %
Waterplane Area: 1,933 Square feet or 180 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 17 lbs/sq ft or 83 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.33
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
More to the point - while we tend to allow sloops and minesweepers as "merchie" ships, torpedo-boats are kinda pushing the limits.
Bear in mind - torpedos count as armament for weight purposes.
Um, it needs an engine...
With my mod hat on, I'll put it more bluntly: I do not think it possible to build ships to the DD/TB rules while also using the merchant rules.
At any rate, I think that MTBs would have much better bang for the buck in this weight class, even if they are more expensive. The 1914 Type C MTB would ship two full sized tubes. I'm not sure where you are thinking of operating, but between the extensive base network and the smallish cruiser-tender conversions the CSA has, most forward operating scenarios for a ship of this size ought to be covered.
I know. This is just something to do with the left-over BP, as it .05 BP each. And, honestly, it has better range.
Maybe this ship or something like it would work better as a sloop with a lot less speed, but built to 1.0 overall strength. Such a ship probably could be built to merchant standards.
The CSN has been getting more than it's money's worth out of the two LR wireless equipped S-21's. A few more such ships may be of great utility for keeping an eye on the Colombian major units as they scatter to the four corners of the earth during whatever the next world crisis is.
But I need something that could be built without a drydock. It was based on the Hainan ED's. Just a concept, though.
You've got 65 slips and dry docks. 22 of them are type 0...
Guinness's got a point there. You have an overabundance of small docks. Add that with the new rules for putting multiple small ships in a dock and I don't think you need this design ;)
Just a concept.
Another evil design from the same company that brought you the "Haiti". ;D
This would be a specially designed Arctic and Antarctic exploration ship. It's eventually purpose is to do something evil. ;D. It's so evil, it's named the Ike ;D ;D. But seriously, can I build this to civilian standard. I believe that all of the "armour" on this ship is nessasary to protect againist crushing ice, falling ice, or to push ice out of the way.
QuoteCSS Ike, CSA Antarctic Exploration laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,201 t standard; 9,890 t normal; 11,241 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.75 ft / 551.00 ft x 56.25 ft x 17.87 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 167.94 m x 17.14 m x 5.45 m
Armament:
2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.72kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 - 0.00" / 0.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.00lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1919 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on side, all aft
Weight of broadside 43 lbs / 19 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
-Iceburg Ram Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
2.00" / 51 mm 50.00 ft / 15.24 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Anti-Iceburg Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Protective Deck deck: 0.57" / 14.5 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,107 shp / 13,508 Kw = 21.12 kts
Range 20,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,039 tons (10% coal)
Complement:
495 - 644
Cost:
£0.829 million / $3.315 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 765 tons, 7.7 %
- Belts: 93 tons, 0.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 427 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 245 tons, 2.5 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 681 tons, 6.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,999 tons, 30.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,890 tons, 19.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,550 tons, 35.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,646 lbs / 9,365 Kg = 963.1 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.89 ft / 0.58 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (23.00 ft / 7.01 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (21.00 ft / 6.40 m before break)
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 22.29 ft / 6.79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 196.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,201 Square feet or 2,155 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 173 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 371 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weight:
250 tons: 10 Large Moter Launches@25 tons
1,000 tons: Science Facilities and space for Scientices, includes supplies and huts, etc. for a full year on Antarctica for 20 people.
600 tons: Area's for dog's and dog trainers. Each dog pack of 6 dogs@10 tons+40 trainers@5 tons, so 40 dog teams and 240 dogs
300 tons: TAMED POLAR BEARS! 12 bears@20 tons+12 trainers@5 tons
200 tons: A very long range(1,000+ miles)@100 tons, 3 backup long ranges@25 tons, and 2 short ranges at@12.5 tons
25 tons: Experimental "Ears" for hearing whales underwater
75 tons: Climitization
50 tons: Extra pumps for repelling ice water caused by breaks in the hull
50 tons: Signal rockets, etc.
1,000 tons: Space for cargo, etc.
"300 tons: TAMED POLAR BEARS! 12 bears@20 tons+12 trainers@5 tons"
Er...Really?
Polar Bears are from the Arctic, not the Antarctic too.
Ahoj!
Hmm, I think I should publish my claim to the Antarctic Peninsula. I've already claimed the sorounding islands ...
Borys
An explorer vessel doesn't have to be military. Just a civilian icebreaker will do.
But I -maddox the moderator- won't stop you if you want to waste 8 BP.
If there's a secret, projected military use for this vessel, it should be built to military standards. You're not exactly hurting for BP.
I'll echo the point on polar bears.
In my eyes, a vessel such as this that is expected to encoutner and deal with ice should be properly built thus it should be build as a regular military ship just like I did with the Kainan Maru.
QuotePolar Bears are from the Arctic, not the Antarctic too.
Everybody knows that, but I suspect that to be part of TexanCowboy's evil plan. :D
"OMGZ!!1! Teh Confederates has arrived at Havana and are unloading teh polar bear cavalry!!1!"
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 24, 2009, 07:35:13 AM
"OMGZ!!1! Teh Confederates has arrived at Havana and are unloading teh polar bear cavalry!!1!"
You realize you've left me no choice but to post this, right?
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/Sachmle/BearCavalry.jpg)
Actually, I believe the plan to be to take the polar bears from the Arctic to Antarctica in order to conquer the penguins and use the penguins to take over Gran Columbia. :)
But his Bear Cavalry can't stop our Neue Schwabian Penguin Army.
(http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0805/penguin-army-army-lol-wtf-bear-cavalry-demotivational-poster-1211223329.jpg) (http://www.motifake.com/penguin-army-army-lol-wtf-bear-cavalry-demotivational-poster-6286.html)
Obviously, I disavow any knowledge of your obligations to post falsified motivational posters in somebody else's thread.
QuoteBut his Bear Cavalry can't stop our Neue Schwabian Penguin Army.
Yes, but there is a significant difference between the bears used by the Imperial Russian Army (as pictured above) and the Polar bears that the CSA plan to use. I was like "jikes!!!" when that grizzly shot past me and my dad at a distance of about 10 meters and made very unfrienly noises. My heart would probably have stopped if it were a polar bear. :o
QuoteObviously, I disavow any knowledge of your obligations to post falsified motivational posters in somebody else's thread.
I see it as a propaganda campaign to prevent the CSA from building that exploration vessel. :)
Ok, removing the evil Polar Bears, is this okay for civilian standard? I think there is a rule over at wesworld that says that icebreakers can be built to civilian standards.
Edit: Oh, and Rocky, these are meant to build evil ports for evil ships to be based in. But not actually military itsself. It has a light armerment for signal flares and self defense against peiguiens.
So you're saying that the CSA, with twice as many BPs as Japan, is unable to build the ship as a military vessel like Japan did? Looks like you need to send a few CSA planners to Tornado Alley and use them as tornado test dummies. ;D
Hey, hey, don't play with that. My area's in tornado watch all day. But, of course, I can't construct my evil plan for Antarctica without that. And Walter, this is much more evil that yours. Hunting Dogs+Polar Bears vs. Peiguins... be scared, be very scared. ;D
Even removing the polarbears won't make this ship buildable inside the merchant rules.
Armament and armor together should not exceed 2% of the weight. In this case, the 7.7% of armor is a tad much.
There are several options open.
- Build it military.
- Refit an older warship to the purpose
- Use a civilian vessel and leave the fun to the moderators to see how that ship fairs in a military operation.
But most of the armour is nesasary for a ship in the Arctic. On your superliners, you have 5% armour, and you payed civilian for those. It really is the same principle here. Those bulkheads aren't there to protect againist torpedoes, but to fend off ice. The end armour isn't there to deflect shells, but to ram through ice. The deck isn't there to protect againist plunging shells, but to stregthen the deck againist falling ice.
Le Magnificent and Mercury are grandfathered vessels, and were build in the Nverse II, during the BB build stop of France. Those ships are military, not civilian.
How else to explain the fact that Le Magnificent survived being torpedo'd twice?
Between 1902 and 1906 no new French BB's were build, nor heavy cruisers, and the one BB of 1907 -Napoleon the Great (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1040.msg49857#msg49857)-, was a reconstruction of a Napoleon class BB hull that was rusting away moored along a few buoys in Brest.
QuoteHunting Dogs+Polar Bears vs. Peiguins... be scared, be very scared.
(http://api.ning.com/files/fNfjXOwhIzaU7w2YCLNX-qcoWpZ3IuaDfe3gdUJvgmjvYxifzbwTg2a*PSqHeRmS5f0-s-o0VqKqWN*Xkr77BMe8nODiWC1X/MadagascarPenguins1.jpg)
You lose...
Slimmed down the bulkhead, removed the armoured deck, and shorted the giant ice ram. I would be ok with building these to tender standard.
CSS Ike, CSA Antarctic Exploration laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,201 t standard; 9,890 t normal; 11,241 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.75 ft / 551.00 ft x 56.25 ft x 17.87 ft (normal load)
170.00 m / 167.94 m x 17.14 m x 5.45 m
Armament:
2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 43 lbs / 19 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: 0.50" / 13 mm 50.00 ft / 15.24 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
501.00 ft / 152.70 m Unarmoured ends
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.38" / 10 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 21.70 kts
Range 20,000nm at 11.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,039 tons (10% coal)
Complement:
495 - 644
Cost:
£0.850 million / $3.402 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 187 tons, 1.9 %
- Belts: 23 tons, 0.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 162 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 752 tons, 7.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,005 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,890 tons, 19.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,050 tons, 41.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,118 lbs / 8,218 Kg = 845.2 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.89 ft / 0.58 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (23.00 ft / 7.01 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m (21.00 ft / 6.40 m before break)
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 22.29 ft / 6.79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 196.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,201 Square feet or 2,155 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 171 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 371 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc Weight:
250 tons: 10 Large Moter Launches@25 tons
1,000 tons: Science Facilities and space for Scientices, includes supplies and huts, etc. for a full year on Antarctica for 20 people.
600 tons: Area's for dog's and dog trainers. Each dog pack of 6 dogs@10 tons+40 trainers@5 tons, so 40 dog teams and 240 dogs
300 tons: TAMED POLAR BEARS! 12 bears@20 tons+12 trainers@5 tons
200 tons: A very long range(1,000+ miles)@100 tons, 3 backup long ranges@25 tons, and 2 short ranges at@12.5 tons
25 tons: Experimental "Ears" for hearing whales underwater
75 tons: Climitization
50 tons: Extra pumps for repelling ice water caused by breaks in the hull
50 tons: Signal rockets, etc.
500 tons: Repair Facilities for small ships: Tender role
Wait? Where are you getting the Poler Bears from again? Last I checked, I had the market cornered on big scary furry predators.
The unclaimed area.... but they can be Grizzleys. Capture the ones that raid my backyard ever single ****ing day.
You got Grizzleys in Tejas? Oh wait nvm, everything is 'bigger' in Texas. :P
Getting back on topic, NS will not look very kindly to Gringos snooping around on its Antartic claim (OTL New Zealand, French, and Australian claims).
http://antarcticparadise.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/antarctica1.jpg (http://antarcticparadise.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/antarctica1.jpg)
Ahoj!
I shall frugally limit myself to the combined Chilean and Argentinian claim ...
Borys
Whether it is bears or penguins, they are no match for the starving demons of Takeshi-jo's Honeycomb Maze, who will eat them all raw. ;D
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/WvRooijen/Navalism/bscap0001.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/WvRooijen/Navalism/bscap0002.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/WvRooijen/Navalism/bscap0003.jpg)
QuoteHey, hey, don't play with that. My area's in tornado watch all day.
Could be worse. In a couple of months, you'll probably have more than just a watch. o_O
QuoteScience Facilities and space for Scientices, includes supplies and huts, etc. for a full year on Antarctica for 20 people.
I doubt that in this point of time you want your people down there for 365 days a year. Some time ago, I looked around at stuff about the pole for some things to use over at Wesworld and IIRC, Byrd was the first one to spend the winter on Antarctica (1928-1929). Even over at Wesworld, Japan's Antarctic Station for Environmental Observation (JASEO) and the Mount Erebus Volcanic Observation Station (MEVOS) are not used during the winter due to the harsh conditions.
QuoteLast I checked, I had the market cornered on big scary furry predators.
Well, only the nice fluffy bunnies with nasty, sharp pointy teeth. :)
QuoteThe unclaimed area.... but they can be Grizzleys.
From that white bit in the North I assume. Could be worse than Grizzleys. Could be polar/grizzley crossings.
QuoteNS will not look very kindly to Gringos snooping around on its Antartic claim
A claim is just a claim and everyone can claim a bit even if it overlaps (as a Wesworld
baddy citizen, you should know that). The one bit that Japan will claim for sure is the 90 degree bit and the area a few miles around the pole. :)
Regarding the current version of Ike. 10mm is not much armor. On the other hand, it is not an icebreaker.
As for the Arctic,here is this little story:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2969.0
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2970.0
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2972.0
third part is still in the being due to a severe case of writers block :-\ :-\