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Main Archive => Navalism 3 Armed Forces => Armed Forces => New Ship Designs => Topic started by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 06:59:52 AM

Title: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 06:59:52 AM
BB-1913, Empire of Italia Battle SHip laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   29,403 t light; 31,313 t standard; 33,336 t normal; 34,954 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   595.00 ft / 595.00 ft x 98.50 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   181.36 m / 181.36 m x 30.02 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 14,720 lbs / 6,677 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.5" / 343 mm   285.60 ft / 87.05 m   11.91 ft / 3.63 m
   Ends:   7.00" / 178 mm   309.38 ft / 94.30 m   11.91 ft / 3.63 m
     Main Belt covers 74 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   285.60 ft / 87.05 m   27.28 ft / 8.31 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 55,366 shp / 41,303 Kw = 22.98 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,641 tons

Complement:
   1,233 - 1,603

Cost:
   £3.146 million / $12.584 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 5.5 %
   Armour: 9,234 tons, 27.7 %
      - Belts: 3,157 tons, 9.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 577 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armament: 3,017 tons, 9.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,194 tons, 6.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 290 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,208 tons, 6.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,121 tons, 39.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,933 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 3,000 tons, 9.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,209 lbs / 17,785 Kg = 28.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 40 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.77

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.711
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.39 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.83 ft / 8.18 m
      - Forecastle (26 %):   17.07 ft / 5.20 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.07 ft / 5.20 m
      - Quarterdeck (26 %):   17.07 ft / 5.20 m
      - Stern:      17.07 ft / 5.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.09 ft / 5.51 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,437 Square feet or 4,407 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 212 lbs/sq ft or 1,033 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.09
      - Longitudinal: 1.35
      - Overall: 1.11
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Year must be in CCYY format eg 1950
250t-  FC
100t - Aux FC
25t -Wireless Transmitter
250t- Admiral Accomidations
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 07:00:27 AM
Please laugh away.... I think she is a tad overbuilt..... ;D
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: The Rock Doctor on July 03, 2008, 07:05:13 AM
Ya gotta start somewhere.

-You don't need more than about 500 t of miscellaneous weight for stuff

-The main belt needs to be significantly longer to cover the important internal bits (like the magazines)

-Higher freeboard, on the order of six metres, would do wonders for your seakeeping

There are other nit-picks, but we can re-visit them later.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Sachmle on July 03, 2008, 07:12:09 AM
All of the following statements are IMHO, others will disagree, which is fine. That's the point.

1)Lengthen your main belt, it doesn't cover your mag/mach spaces.
2)1.5" is plenty think enough for a TDS, 2" isn't overkill, but it's a tad too much.
3)Thicken your deck armor, 3" should be fine, 3.5" would be outstanding.
4)You have ALL your MB guns listed as raised mounts. I assume you only want 2 MB turrets raised.
5)Thicker barbettes, thinner "other above deck" on the MB. 12" for the barbettes is good, 6-8" for the 'other' is fine.
6)You have 6 casemates in hull mounts(lower) and 10 in raised mounts. Do you want the 10 above main deck level, or on it?
7)More freeboard, your seakeeping is .77 (1 is pretty much the accepted minimum) and your stability is 40%, 50% is probably the minimum I'd take here.
8)She's overbuilt as is, a composite strength of 1.00 is the expected level. Over and you're waisting tonnage, under and she'll be unfit for service, unless a DD, which she's not.
9)250t for Admiral accomodations is high to me. I'd say 50t would be fine.

All I can think of right now. For a first crack, not bad on the whole.
Good luck.  ;)
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Jefgte on July 03, 2008, 07:19:04 AM
Did CtWaterman start to built before 1913?
1900 for ex?

;)
Title: Newly Updated BB-1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 07:31:30 AM
Ok I fixed alot of things but the Main guns are still screwed up.  The Admiral Allocation is for the Admiral and his staff and his briefing room.  Given that Im playing the Italians this includes a small allocation for a wine cellar and when the Admiral found out his allocation was going to be smaller then that new fangled fire control system they raised a ruckus.

Displacement:
   29,403 t light; 31,313 t standard; 33,336 t normal; 34,954 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   598.00 ft / 595.00 ft x 98.50 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   182.27 m / 181.36 m x 30.02 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns in single mounts, 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model  Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 14,720 lbs / 6,677 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.5" / 343 mm   455.00 ft / 138.68 m   11.91 ft / 3.63 m
   Ends:   7.00" / 178 mm   455.00 ft / 138.68 m   11.91 ft / 3.63 m
     Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.75" / 44 mm   455.00 ft / 138.68 m   27.28 ft / 8.31 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 55,366 shp / 41,303 Kw = 22.98 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,641 tons

Complement:
   1,233 - 1,603

Cost:
   £3.146 million / $12.584 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 5.5 %
   Armour: 11,237 tons, 33.7 %
      - Belts: 4,529 tons, 13.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 804 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 2,543 tons, 7.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,072 tons, 9.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 290 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,208 tons, 6.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,119 tons, 39.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,933 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 3.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     52,025 lbs / 23,598 Kg = 37.9 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.39

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.711
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.39 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.83 ft / 8.18 m
      - Forecastle (26 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Quarterdeck (26 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Stern:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.61 ft / 7.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,437 Square feet or 4,407 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 978 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.08
      - Longitudinal: 1.97
      - Overall: 1.14
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Year must be in CCYY format eg 1950
250T FC
100T Aux FC
25T W/T
250T Admiral & Staff Accomidations
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Sachmle on July 03, 2008, 07:38:01 AM
You've only accounted for 625t of misc weight, why the other 375t? I presume you're going for a Nevada layout on the MB, triples on deck level, twins superfiring? If so, put the 4 in the above freeboard column and leave the other blank. Then change the mounts on the weapons page to 4 instead of 10 and this will give you 2 triple on deck, and 2 twin superfiring.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Jefgte on July 03, 2008, 07:41:22 AM
   10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns in single mounts, 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model  Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
    6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas

Certainly not
----------------

- Overall: 1.14
decrease block coef
beam & draught

overall must be 1.00


;)
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 08:06:33 AM
BB-1913, Empire of Italia Battle SHip laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   29,371 t light; 31,276 t standard; 33,056 t normal; 34,480 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   593.00 ft / 590.00 ft x 98.50 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   180.75 m / 179.83 m x 30.02 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.00lbs / 0.00kg shells, 0 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,720 lbs / 6,677 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.5" / 343 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   190.00 ft / 57.91 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.75" / 44 mm   368.00 ft / 112.17 m   27.28 ft / 8.31 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 72,181 shp / 53,847 Kw = 24.57 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,205 tons

Complement:
   1,225 - 1,593

Cost:
   £3.247 million / $12.988 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 11,714 tons, 35.4 %
      - Belts: 4,929 tons, 14.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 650 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 2,801 tons, 8.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,046 tons, 9.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 288 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,878 tons, 8.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,939 tons, 36.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,685 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 3.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     45,999 lbs / 20,865 Kg = 33.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.711
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.99 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.94 ft / 8.21 m
      - Forecastle (24 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Quarterdeck (26 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Stern:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.57 ft / 7.49 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,038 Square feet or 4,370 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 898 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.80
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
250T FC
100T Aux FC
25T W/T
250T Admiral and Staff Accomidations
Other Misc Weight for AAA Expansion Latter
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Sachmle on July 03, 2008, 08:09:53 AM
Bravo!! Now if you just deepen her draft a little, maybe to 30' your block coefficient (BC) will come down below .7 and it should increase your stability a little and let you cut some more weight.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Jefgte on July 03, 2008, 08:17:36 AM
"- Stem:      26.94 ft / 8.21 m
      - Forecastle (24 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Quarterdeck (26 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Stern:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
"

7.32m... too much freeboard for that BB

Decrease freeboard to increase stability


Jef  ;)
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Jefgte on July 03, 2008, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: Sachmle on July 03, 2008, 08:18:49 AM
Quote from: Jefgte on July 03, 2008, 08:17:36 AM
"- Stem:      26.94 ft / 8.21 m
      - Forecastle (24 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Quarterdeck (26 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Stern:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
"

7.32m... too much freeboard for that BB

Decrease freeboard to increase stability


Jef  ;)
I don't know about that, I've seen alot of ships w/ freeboard as high as the draft is deep.

High freeboard is for fast speed (BC Alaska) but not for 24.5kts with lenght to beam ratio 6 : 1


Jef ;)
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 09:12:49 AM
BB-1913, Empire of Italia Battle SHip laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   28,570 t light; 30,457 t standard; 32,179 t normal; 33,557 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   593.00 ft / 590.00 ft x 98.50 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   180.75 m / 179.83 m x 30.02 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,722 lbs / 6,678 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   398.00 ft / 121.31 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   185.00 ft / 56.39 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     7.00 ft / 2.13 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   398.00 ft / 121.31 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.75" / 44 mm   368.00 ft / 112.17 m   27.28 ft / 8.31 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 78,986 shp / 58,923 Kw = 25.43 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,100 tons

Complement:
   1,200 - 1,561

Cost:
   £3.258 million / $13.033 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 11,649 tons, 36.2 %
      - Belts: 5,140 tons, 16.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 650 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 2,703 tons, 8.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,872 tons, 8.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 283 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,149 tons, 9.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,307 tons, 35.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,609 tons, 11.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 625 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,739 lbs / 18,025 Kg = 29.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.646
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.99 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (26 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Quarterdeck (24 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.36 ft / 6.82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 44,356 Square feet or 4,121 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 894 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.72
      - Overall: 0.98
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
250t FC
100t Aux FC
25t W/T
250t Admiral & Staff accomidations
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Jefgte on July 03, 2008, 09:38:01 AM
Hmmmmmm...

"- Overall: 0.98"
------------------------

Decrease some thing to have Overall: 1.00
protection
speed
Miscelaneous weight for Admiral
...

-----------------------

"...Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02"

Work on the forms of the hull to have:
"Good seaboat...


;)
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 05:48:25 PM
*kicks program* the overall was 1.0 when I went to the make report function.... *sighs* I should have stayed in bed....
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 06:03:02 PM
I dont get this you tell me to reduce the free board but when I do that my ship becomes tight and cramped and wet forward.   The only way I have found to make the ships sea boat quality improve is to raise the free board... hmmm.... maybe up or down even more will work...... ???
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Guinness on July 03, 2008, 06:09:05 PM
I've been looking up real world examples to get an idea of what works. For instance, SS2 comes with an example of HMS Queen Elizabeth, which looked like a pretty good place to start, at least for freeboard.

Reducing by one deck at or aft of the midline was a common technique of the Dreadnought era and later, for instance.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 08:00:51 PM
There is a problem with my Bloody Battle Ships.... they keep sinking.... how in the heck do you get a ship to have good sea keeping abilities without overloading the Free Board if you use the suggested numbers the stupid things sink in stiff breezes.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 03, 2008, 08:36:10 PM
There she is done I think ??? :o





BB-1913, Empire of Italia Battle SHip laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   29,323 t light; 31,015 t standard; 32,759 t normal; 34,155 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590.00 ft / 590.00 ft x 98.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   179.83 m / 179.83 m x 29.87 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,722 lbs / 6,678 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   398.00 ft / 121.31 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   185.00 ft / 56.39 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     7.00 ft / 2.13 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   398.00 ft / 121.31 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.75" / 44 mm   368.00 ft / 112.17 m   27.28 ft / 8.31 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 75,721 shp / 56,488 Kw = 25.06 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,140 tons

Complement:
   1,216 - 1,582

Cost:
   £3.267 million / $13.068 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 11,865 tons, 36.2 %
      - Belts: 5,142 tons, 15.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 650 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 2,889 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,897 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 287 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,019 tons, 9.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,974 tons, 36.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,436 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 625 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     44,359 lbs / 20,121 Kg = 32.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: miketr on July 03, 2008, 09:42:07 PM
A bit of the ships hull is un armored.

   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   185.00 ft / 56.39 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     7.00 ft / 2.13 m Unarmoured ends

Increase the ends to 192 feet in length.

Also do you want a 25 knot ship and range at 7,000 nm is fairly high.


Michael
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: P3D on July 03, 2008, 09:44:13 PM
I miss the end of the report, freeboard, etc.
The 8" barbettes are IMO paper thin.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 04, 2008, 12:47:33 AM
Fixed the Barbettes glaring problme there and the under armored ends....
I suspect she is probably a little over built right now....

BB-1913, Empire of Italia Battle SHip laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   29,323 t light; 31,015 t standard; 32,759 t normal; 34,155 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590.00 ft / 590.00 ft x 98.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   179.83 m / 179.83 m x 29.87 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,722 lbs / 6,678 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   398.00 ft / 121.31 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   192.00 ft / 58.52 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   398.00 ft / 121.31 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.75" / 44 mm   368.00 ft / 112.17 m   27.28 ft / 8.31 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 51,436 shp / 38,371 Kw = 22.74 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,140 tons

Complement:
   1,216 - 1,582

Cost:
   £3.119 million / $12.477 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 12,615 tons, 38.5 %
      - Belts: 4,920 tons, 15.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 650 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 3,860 tons, 11.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,897 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 287 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,051 tons, 6.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,193 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,436 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 625 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     50,510 lbs / 22,911 Kg = 36.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.661
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.02 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Mid (70 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Average freeboard:   25.11 ft / 7.65 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 44,741 Square feet or 4,157 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 935 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.99
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

250t FC
100t Aux FC
25t W/T
250t Admiral & Staff accomidations
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Jefgte on July 04, 2008, 01:59:01 AM
Good BB, Well balanced.

If you want a round displacement,
29300t for ex, adjust the draught in mm
I mean 29323t for 9.14m
29300t for 9.13264m.

(You can reduce the number of shells from125 to 120 or less)

Round displacement is more easy to calculate the building plan, year after year.


Jef  ;)
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: P3D on July 04, 2008, 04:06:49 AM
You have 5000t extra light displacement over Tennessee, going into armor and machinery. Possible savings are cutting armored deck by 0.50" (or not), upper and end belts to 4-6". 1.50 seaboat quality is overkill, 1.20 should be fine.
I also prefer having 1-2" thicker turret face than barbette, and it does not cost a lot.

The 250t of the battleship FC includes all the redundancy you need.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 04, 2008, 06:10:53 AM
Ok will look at small tweakings of the ship. 
The 100t Aux Fire Control was an attempt to have a back up in case of damage to Primary and to have a fire control station available for the 2nd Battery of 5" Guns to engage other targets then those being targeted by the Main Battery.   Basically a ship better able to engage an Enemy BB and a Few TB or DD trying to make a Torpedo Run.

I see different people using different Tonnage figures for W/T or Marconi - is thier a set figure I missed somewhere.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: Sachmle on July 04, 2008, 06:44:50 AM
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=327.0 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=327.0) There ya go.
Title: Re: First BB Attemp Italian BB to be layed down in 1913
Post by: ctwaterman on July 06, 2008, 11:52:57 PM
I think this is likely to be the final copy I took some of the advice and being able to play in metric millimeters appears to be quite effective.  You would think that after 100 Years with it as our official system of measurement we could use it more often.

BB-1913, Empire of Italia Battle SHip laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   28,943 t light; 30,627 t standard; 32,359 t normal; 33,746 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590.00 ft / 590.00 ft x 98.00 ft x 29.63 ft (normal load)
   179.83 m / 179.83 m x 29.87 m  x 9.03 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,722 lbs / 6,678 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   365.00 ft / 111.25 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     25.00 ft / 7.62 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   365.00 ft / 111.25 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.75" / 44 mm   365.00 ft / 111.25 m   27.28 ft / 8.31 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.5" / 368 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 61,563 shp / 45,926 Kw = 23.84 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,119 tons

Complement:
   1,206 - 1,568

Cost:
   £3.166 million / $12.665 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 11,755 tons, 36.3 %
      - Belts: 4,429 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 645 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 3,914 tons, 12.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,483 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 284 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,455 tons, 7.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,268 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,416 tons, 10.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 625 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     47,414 lbs / 21,506 Kg = 34.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.661
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.02 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Mid (70 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Average freeboard:   25.11 ft / 7.65 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 44,741 Square feet or 4,157 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 943 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.98
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250t FC
100t Aux FC
25t W/T
250t Admiral & Staff accomidations