August Madrid
The Habsburg Marineamt made an offer to the Ministerio de Armada for joint manouvers in the 3rd Quarter. The theme of the exercise could either be "merchant traffic interdiction", or "landings on rias type costs". The Bay of Biscay would be appropriate for either.
The Orange book is helpful, thanks. Questions:
1. What acts of war have the Dutch actually committed against Iberia?
2. On the occasions where Iberia "receives word" of Dutch intentions, are those sources reliable?
3. What does Iberia seek from the Netherlands in exchange for a withdrawal of the declaration of war?
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 18, 2007, 08:56:37 AM
The Orange book is helpful, thanks. Questions:
1. What acts of war have the Dutch actually committed against Iberia?
2. On the occasions where Iberia "receives word" of Dutch intentions, are those sources reliable?
3. What does Iberia seek from the Netherlands in exchange for a withdrawal of the declaration of war?
While it seems it is not relevant any more, I want to answer the first two for the sake of completeness.
On 1: the answer is none and never.
On two, I suspect it was the some things I told the Austrians, mainly as a test to see if they informed Iberia (and therefore the Swiss) on information provided to them.
A funny fact is that one of Iberia's main complaints (the regulation on shipping trough Dutch territory) never was implemented, as Iberia withdrew from those negotiations just as they were about to really get under way, and then banned themselves from using those routs, I saw no reason to implement any restrictions on Iberian shipping...
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 18, 2007, 08:56:37 AM
3. What does Iberia seek from the Netherlands in exchange for a withdrawal of the declaration of war?
This is a "never happened" - please ignore.
Borys
QuoteOn two, I suspect it was the some things I told the Austrians, mainly as a test to see if they informed Iberia (and therefore the Swiss) on information provided to them.
It was Brandenburg that passed information on and Austria confirmed it. That the Dutch government is so stupid to consider let alone to actually do such an action is simply beyond belief. It was only out of a strong desire to stay at peace that Iberia did not declare war when the warning was received. Iberia had already warned that any action vs. our shipping would be considered an act of war, such a threat confirmed by the Dutch's own allies is an act of war by itself. The Dutch should be greatful that our responce was only to ban there shipping from Iberian ports.
QuoteA funny fact is that one of Iberia's main complaints (the regulation on shipping trough Dutch territory) never was implemented, as Iberia withdrew from those negotiations just as they were about to really get under way, and then banned themselves from using those routs, I saw no reason to implement any restrictions on Iberian shipping...
Just about to get underway?!? Our governments spent several days in talks, they started, went no place and then ended.
The Iberian government took the threat at face value; we assumed that when a government says they are going to do something they mean to do it.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands through a combination of paranoia, ego and stupidity all by itself wrecked relations with a neutral nation. A nation that went out of its way twice to attempt to act as a peace maker, a nation that despite repeated provocations once again tried to help end a conflict not its own and received more provocations for its efforts. All because of some deluded fantasy that Iberia is an ally of New Switzerland... unbelievable, simply unbelievable.
Hmm... same way the relations with NS where broken, all over a small canal. After NS again and again tried to calm the Dutch and at the same time was court them as allies, the Dutch could only see the Kra Canal as a threat, to the point where they threatened the use of force against the canal if completed. Hence NS had no choice but to go to war to destroy the threat before it grew.
Quote from: miketr on November 18, 2007, 02:17:40 PM
QuoteOn two, I suspect it was the some things I told the Austrians, mainly as a test to see if they informed Iberia (and therefore the Swiss) on information provided to them.
It was Brandenburg that passed information on and Austria confirmed it. That the Dutch government is so stupid to consider let alone to actually do such an action is simply beyond belief. It was only out of a strong desire to stay at peace that Iberia did not declare war when the warning was received. Iberia had already warned that any action vs. our shipping would be considered an act of war, such a threat confirmed by the Dutch's own allies is an act of war by itself. The Dutch should be greatful that our responce was only to ban there shipping from Iberian ports.
A threat that that iberia never recived, and the Netherlands never sent, cannot be considred an act of war, as nothing as acted upon. For something to be an act of war, someone have to do the act. Iberia basically reated to rumors without substance.
QuoteQuoteA funny fact is that one of Iberia's main complaints (the regulation on shipping trough Dutch territory) never was implemented, as Iberia withdrew from those negotiations just as they were about to really get under way, and then banned themselves from using those routs, I saw no reason to implement any restrictions on Iberian shipping...
Just about to get underway?!? Our governments spent several days in talks, they started, went no place and then ended.
The Iberian government took the threat at face value; we assumed that when a government says they are going to do something they mean to do it.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands through a combination of paranoia, ego and stupidity all by itself wrecked relations with a neutral nation. A nation that went out of its way twice to attempt to act as a peace maker, a nation that despite repeated provocations once again tried to help end a conflict not its own and received more provocations for its efforts. All because of some deluded fantasy that Iberia is an ally of New Switzerland... unbelievable, simply unbelievable.
Well then our perceptions of event differs
allot, as from were i am looking we had not really gotten past the opening statments before iberia withdrew from the negotiation. And the "escalation" you have been talking about have been totaly one sided, with Iberia making one hostile move after another.
And the Netherlands did not withdraw from the Madrid talks, those talks simply faded into the sea when the war escalated.
Quote from: Desertfox on November 18, 2007, 02:30:08 PM
Hmm... same way the relations with NS where broken, all over a small canal. After NS again and again tried to calm the Dutch and at the same time was court them as allies, the Dutch could only see the Kra Canal as a threat, to the point where they threatened the use of force against the canal if completed. Hence NS had no choice but to go to war to destroy the threat before it grew.
Not ruling out the use of force is not the same thing as threatening a full scale war at the drop of a hat. And never did the Netherlands threat the swiss with a war.
But i have learnt my lesson, never talk with people about sensetive issues, that will make them declare war, better to just unmotivated declare war left and right.
Actually it would be better to be clear about one's intentions, or when something is clearly taken the wrong way, to correct or clarify what was said sooner than later. As seen waiting just gets people's tempers up around here to the point were IC and OOC blend a little too easily.
Double talk tends to make those on the receiving end feel they were threatened and thus react on that threat. Of course if the purpose of the double talk was it misdirect an opponent into declaring war rather that declaring it yourself, well that isn't all that much different now is it?
While such language is actaully quite common in politics and international relations, many of the civilians and military personel (I'm assuming we have some here) do not understand such language or are offended by the meaninglessness of it in general. I suspect some of use have to put of with too much of it in our daily lives as it is, and would rather not be subject to it when we are trying to have fun.
Quote from: Korpen on November 18, 2007, 02:32:22 PM
Quote from: miketr on November 18, 2007, 02:17:40 PM
QuoteOn two, I suspect it was the some things I told the Austrians, mainly as a test to see if they informed Iberia (and therefore the Swiss) on information provided to them.
It was Brandenburg that passed information on and Austria confirmed it. That the Dutch government is so stupid to consider let alone to actually do such an action is simply beyond belief. It was only out of a strong desire to stay at peace that Iberia did not declare war when the warning was received. Iberia had already warned that any action vs. our shipping would be considered an act of war, such a threat confirmed by the Dutch's own allies is an act of war by itself. The Dutch should be greatful that our responce was only to ban there shipping from Iberian ports.
A threat that that iberia never recived, and the Netherlands never sent, cannot be considred an act of war, as nothing as acted upon. For something to be an act of war, someone have to do the act. Iberia basically reated to rumors without substance.
Iberia gave a firm warning that any interference towards our shipping would be considered an act of war. Iberia did receive a warning from the Netherlands own allies, Brandenburg and Austria, that the Netherlands was going to attack our shipping. Iberia has had long and friendly relations with these two governments and we see no reason why they would pass on such a warning if they did not believe it to be true. Perhaps in whatever mental hospital the members of the Netherlands government escaped from this doesn't add up to a massive provocation but in the real world it does. Especially as the Netherlands Governmental admitted to conducting the provocation as some type of test of its own allies and or Iberia.
Pray tell what exactly did the Netherlands government expect Iberia to do when we received this warning? When lives are on the line were we to just sit back and wait for an attack to occur? The Iberian government's first responsibility is to the safety and well being of its subjects. When we receive information that we believe to be trust worthy that there is a threat to the above we will act on that information.
Quote from: Korpen on November 18, 2007, 02:32:22 PM
QuoteQuoteA funny fact is that one of Iberia's main complaints (the regulation on shipping trough Dutch territory) never was implemented, as Iberia withdrew from those negotiations just as they were about to really get under way, and then banned themselves from using those routs, I saw no reason to implement any restrictions on Iberian shipping...
Just about to get underway?!? Our governments spent several days in talks, they started, went no place and then ended.
The Iberian government took the threat at face value; we assumed that when a government says they are going to do something they mean to do it.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands through a combination of paranoia, ego and stupidity all by itself wrecked relations with a neutral nation. A nation that went out of its way twice to attempt to act as a peace maker, a nation that despite repeated provocations once again tried to help end a conflict not its own and received more provocations for its efforts. All because of some deluded fantasy that Iberia is an ally of New Switzerland... unbelievable, simply unbelievable.
Well then our perceptions of event differs allot, as from were i am looking we had not really gotten past the opening statments before iberia withdrew from the negotiation. And the "escalation" you have been talking about have been totaly one sided, with Iberia making one hostile move after another.
And the Netherlands did not withdraw from the Madrid talks, those talks simply faded into the sea when the war escalated.
OOC
The talks took place 23rd June till 25th June with it looks like several PM's back and forth between. I have a few of the PM's in my outbox related to this; I clean my PM's out on a regular bases as I don't want it to get too cluttered and the 250+ and so I don't have all the PM's. I have is too many as is and I will be purging it once things are wrapped up.
IC The Dutch can play the part of the wounded party if they so wish; however, it's not a role that they are suited to.
QuoteNot ruling out the use of force is not the same thing as threatening a full scale war at the drop of a hat. And never did the Netherlands threat the swiss with a war.
Well this looks like a threat:
QuoteAnd make no misstake about this, i will not allow such a cannal to be compleated (however, i am in no great hurry, as i see it will take quite a few years untill it is compelated).
According to the Treaty of Bangkok, an attack on Siam is an attack on NS. And the only way to have stopped the construction of the Canal would have been by direct action. Hence any hostile act by the Dutch against the Kra Canal would have been seen as an attack by the Neatherlands against the Swiss Confederation.
I'm surprised the Neatherlands never declared war on Siam following the Swiss declaration of war. It was a key time to rid themselve of the canal by capturing the zone it is being built in. Conversely I'm surprised the Middle Kingdom has not taken it upon itself to place enough pressure on Siam to disown the Swiss and the canal for fear of their Kingdom. It has provided enough threats to keep Swiss troops and naval units out of Siam for the most part during the war. Aside from ships coaling their for raids around Hainam or moving away indirectly from Dutch forces to thrown them off pursuits.
Good points - there's still time for the Middle Kingdom to lean on Siam if it feels this is an issue, though.
In the same vein Ithekro.
Would Glorious France Allow New Swiss to gain acces to the front door of South Indochina?
And trough Personal communication, it's about sure Phoenix has plans about Siam.
Quote from: Ithekro on November 18, 2007, 03:30:48 PM
I'm surprised the Neatherlands never declared war on Siam following the Swiss declaration of war. It was a key time to rid themselve of the canal by capturing the zone it is being built in. Conversely I'm surprised the Middle Kingdom has not taken it upon itself to place enough pressure on Siam to disown the Swiss and the canal for fear of their Kingdom. It has provided enough threats to keep Swiss troops and naval units out of Siam for the most part during the war. Aside from ships coaling their for raids around Hainam or moving away indirectly from Dutch forces to thrown them off pursuits.
Well the issue was raised with the Middle Kingdom, who said they would send a note to siam, addressing the issues. That is as much as I know, and as the MK said thay would make a move, I did not see any need to do I myself.
QuoteI'm surprised the Neatherlands never declared war on Siam following the Swiss declaration of war.
And get the Siamese Armed Forces against them? The Siamese Navy might be small but it's pretty powerful. The long coastline and calm waters of the Gulf of Siam make excellent Turbinia territory of which the Siamese had 50! And strange as it may sound, the Siamese Navy is probably the only Navy in the World capable of defeating the Chinese while fighting on equal terms, the Siamese having a whole pack of shallow draft gunboats inmune to the Chinese torpedoes.
Had the Siamese intervened during the Battles of Natuna and Hainan, both of those islands would still be in Swiss hands.
The MK had 4 advanced corps on the border, breathing down in the Siamese king. And very well capable to send in more if need be.
Siam's King is lot of things, but not a fool to invite MK troops.
Quote from: miketr on November 18, 2007, 03:10:12 PM
Iberia gave a firm warning that any interference towards our shipping would be considered an act of war. Iberia did receive a warning from the Netherlands own allies, Brandenburg and Austria, that the Netherlands was going to attack our shipping. Iberia has had long and friendly relations with these two governments and we see no reason why they would pass on such a warning if they did not believe it to be true. Perhaps in whatever mental hospital the members of the Netherlands government escaped from this doesn't add up to a massive provocation but in the real world it does. Especially as the Netherlands Governmental admitted to conducting the provocation as some type of test of its own allies and or Iberia.
Again, Iberia did not react on anything that happened in the real world, but base that argument on a second hand rumour, that lacked any substance. You are confusing the rumour of an act with the act itself.
The real fact of the matter is that Iberia again and again has taken unprovoked against the Netherlands, while in return the Netherlands have never acted in any way against Iberia.
The "acts of war" Iberia is talking about have never happen outside the imagination of the Iberian leadership.
QuoteOOC
The talks took place 23rd June till 25th June with it looks like several PM's back and forth between. I have a few of the PM's in my outbox related to this; I clean my PM's out on a regular bases as I don't want it to get too cluttered and the 250+ and so I don't have all the PM's. I have is too many as is and I will be purging it once things are wrapped up.
I do not have much more to add there, but looking up the thread the swiss withdrew when more countries became involved.
QuoteThe MK had 4 advanced corps on the border, breathing down in the Siamese king. And very well capable to send in more if need be.
Siam had 3 and on excellent defensive ground. The logistics alone would have crippled the Chinese
QuoteSiam's King is lot of things, but not a fool to invite MK troops.
And neither where the Dutch to provoke the Siamese. Siamese intevention early could have turned the tide of war.
Considering that Siam does not have the resources to maintain more than 5 corps (one reserve) AND a their navy with construction programs running, I doubt they had more than 50,000 troops on the Chinese border (an "active" corps has about 25000 active troops).
And the Siamese won't have much better railroads than the Chinese in the region either.
Ahoj!
Any warfare there will be with coolie transport. On both sides.
The only RR in the region is the one from Hanoi to Saigon, with a little bit between Annam and Tonkin missing.
There might be some short RR around Bangkok.
I will check when the Chiang-Mai RR was built.
Borys