As my San Luis class PCs were all laid down by 1892 I'm thinking of replacing them in the next 3 years, as slip become available. Here's the SS report
Santa Fe Class, NUS Protected Cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1905)
Displacement:
4,756 t light; 5,092 t standard; 8,000 t normal; 10,327 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 56.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 17.07 m x 8.23 m
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 240.00lbs / 108.86kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 240.00lbs / 108.86kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 1 raised mount
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1900 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1900 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 1,682 lbs / 763 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 175
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,646 shp / 15,402 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,235 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
422 - 549
Cost:
£0.596 million / $2.383 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 224 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 615 tons, 7.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 49 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 515 tons, 6.4 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,721 tons, 21.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,147 tons, 26.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,244 tons, 40.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,196 lbs / 3,718 Kg = 32.0 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.494
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Forecastle (35 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 14.75 ft / 4.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.8 %
Waterplane Area: 13,914 Square feet or 1,293 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 447 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.65
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
There's way too much bunkerage on that baby. There's more coal than ship.
I don't care for her: the hull's way too deep for a cruiser, the main battery will be very slow firing (being hand loaded), no belt armor, and too slow for a modern cruiser.
"Armed Fleet Collier", indeed.
Forget 8"s. For 6-8000@10kts is adequate range with coal.
I see what you are trying to achive. Perhaps I could interest you in the following design (modified to you requests) would come complete with 1909 Turbine plans:
Launceston class, New Switzerland Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
4,640 t light; 4,879 t standard; 5,876 t normal; 6,674 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
470.00 ft / 470.00 ft x 49.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
143.26 m / 143.26 m x 14.94 m x 5.79 m
Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1904 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1904 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1904 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1904 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,360 lbs / 617 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 131 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24,713 shp / 18,436 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 12,050nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,795 tons (70% coal)
Complement:
335 - 436
Cost:
£0.473 million / $1.893 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 170 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 978 tons, 16.6 %
- Belts: 576 tons, 9.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 98 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 276 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,200 tons, 20.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,143 tons, 36.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,236 tons, 21.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,530 lbs / 3,416 Kg = 29.4 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.470
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 16.26 ft / 4.96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.2 %
Waterplane Area: 14,940 Square feet or 1,388 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 417 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.61
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Can NS build her?
I wouldn't worry with 8" guns on such a ship- the Olympia was more an exception than a rule in PC construction.
IF you want the 8" guns, then 'turret & barbettes' is the only way to go- 'hurray' for powered loading equipment! My Mobile class might be a good place to look for an example; I think she's close to what you're trying to achieve here.
I can't build her (well I can but only under certain circumstances), but I can provide full plans and the required engine tech at bargain prices.
The historical Hawkins class had Mount & Hoist and where decent ships. The Launcestons have proven their worth in combat, sinking a much larger AC and bagging an entire convoy.
Ahoj!
The 7,5" inch guns were originally developed by the RN as replacement for 8" guns, as the shells could be manhandled by 2 (strong) men, not 3.
The cut off point seems to be 200lbs.
Borys
And I think the USA knows where she can buy 7.5" guns... ;)
In fact, I can make as many as you need in 1/1909, probably. They are only 13.75t each.
EDIT: Here's an idea for a much cheaper ship armed with 7.5" guns... less cost and BP meaning more ships to cover more turf- faster, too. ;)
3rd Class Cruiser laid down 1909
Displacement:
3,700 t light; 3,888 t standard; 4,356 t normal; 4,731 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 18.50 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 12.19 m x 5.64 m
Armament:
3 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns in single mounts, 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 844 lbs / 383 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 131 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 27,000 shp / 20,142 Kw = 25.94 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.10 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 843 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
267 - 348
Cost:
£0.412 million / $1.649 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 112 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 672 tons, 15.4 %
- Belts: 424 tons, 9.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 37 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 194 tons, 4.4 %
- Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,350 tons, 31.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,466 tons, 33.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 656 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 2.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,117 lbs / 1,414 Kg = 14.8 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.38 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 16.44 ft / 5.01 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 123.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.8 %
Waterplane Area: 10,463 Square feet or 972 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 351 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.79
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The reason I had sooooooo much bunkerage and range was to use up extra composite strength. Due to engine tech limitations, 5,000 shpx4 shafts = 20,000 max I was limited to either build a PC smaller than the one it was replacing and have around 24kts top speed, or build one bigger and have ~23 kts with 10,000+ range at ~14kts. In a perfect world I'd research the next engine tech and then build them, but the San Luis' are already 16 yrs old and I don't have anything to use in their place while I refit them. I suppose I could bid out a contract in 1/09, but I don't know if I can afford it with the 2nd VdM and 4 more La Rioja's already on the slips. I think I can finish the DDs pretty fast, only 751t, but VdM takes alot of resources. If I did put out a contract the requirement would be 6000t light >=8500 range, >= 4 6" 8-10 QF (3 or 12 pds) for TB defence, 4 above water TT 18", a 25t marconi and at least 24kts. Any and all offers will be considered. Would like to lay down at least 2 1/09, but would wait til 2/09 if outstanding design, but needs more $ or BP.
Ahoj!
Something like this:
Kaiserin und Koenigin Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1909
Displacement:
4 633 t light; 4 785 t standard; 5 321 t normal; 5 749 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
380,52 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 19,80 ft (normal load)
115,98 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m x 6,04 m
Armament:
2 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
3 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft
4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1909 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 500 lbs / 227 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,00" / 102 mm 303,00 ft / 92,35 m 12,00 ft / 3,66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 123% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,00" / 25 mm - 1,00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm - 1,00" / 25 mm
- Armour deck: 1,50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 36 485 shp / 27 217 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 964 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
310 - 404
Cost:
£0,472 million / $1,887 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 68 tons, 1,3%
Armour: 958 tons, 18,0%
- Belts: 595 tons, 11,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 19 tons, 0,4%
- Armour Deck: 331 tons, 6,2%
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2%
Machinery: 1 806 tons, 33,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 721 tons, 32,3%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 688 tons, 12,9%
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 1,5%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4 263 lbs / 1 934 Kg = 39,5 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 12,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,52
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
Stern overhang: -1,00 ft / -0,30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Forecastle (20%): 26,00 ft / 7,92 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
- Mid (50%): 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
- Stern: 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
- Average freeboard: 19,92 ft / 6,07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93,4%
Waterplane Area: 11 934 Square feet or 1 109 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 71 lbs/sq ft or 347 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,85
- Longitudinal: 3,93
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
ADDED LATER:
It is possible for you to buy and digest the necessary engine tech by 1/1910. Also, remember what I wrote about the 1:2 Active:Reserves tech? So can have the 12,000 per shaft engines available from 2/1908 onwards.
Borys
France, as always interested in furthering the world has "by accident" a desing that could be usable.
QuoteDesign VII, French Export- NUS proposal First rate Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
5.235 t light; 5.491 t standard; 6.336 t normal; 7.011 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
403,08 ft / 393,70 ft x 55,77 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
122,86 m / 120,00 m x 17,00 m x 6,00 m
Armament:
6 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (3x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1908 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1908 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 2.158 lbs / 979 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,00" / 102 mm 3,00" / 76 mm 5,00" / 127 mm
2nd: 3,00" / 76 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm 0,50" / 13 mm -
- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 29.352 shp / 21.897 Kw = 25,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.520 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
354 - 461
Cost:
£0,615 million / $2,461 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 270 tons, 4,3%
Armour: 1.193 tons, 18,8%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 371 tons, 5,9%
- Armour Deck: 822 tons, 13,0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 1.468 tons, 23,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.245 tons, 35,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.101 tons, 17,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 0,9%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4.907 lbs / 2.226 Kg = 21,7 x 7,7 " / 195 mm shells or 1,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 15,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 83 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 78
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Forecastle (20%): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (50%): 15,42 ft / 4,70 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,42 ft / 4,70 m
- Stern: 15,42 ft / 4,70 m
- Average freeboard: 16,29 ft / 4,97 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124,7%
Waterplane Area: 14.806 Square feet or 1.375 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 472 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,92
- Longitudinal: 2,10
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
QuoteThe historical Hawkins class had Mount & Hoist and where decent ships.
Actually - were they? The RN didn't seem to do much with them post-war, despite being some of the largest and newest cruisers in their inventory. Nor did they use the 7.5" mounts in their follow-up treaty cruisers. Come WW2, they intended to re-arm the survivors with 6" guns (though only got around to doing so with one of them). Much as I personally like the design, I get the sense that in service, it was a bit of a flop.
Sachmle: engine tech can be acquired. You just gotta ask around.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 22, 2007, 07:04:16 AM
QuoteThe historical Hawkins class had Mount & Hoist and where decent ships.
Actually - were they? The RN didn't seem to do much with them post-war, despite being some of the largest and newest cruisers in their inventory. Nor did they use the 7.5" mounts in their follow-up treaty cruisers. Come WW2, they intended to re-arm the survivors with 6" guns (though only got around to doing so with one of them). Much as I personally like the design, I get the sense that in service, it was a bit of a flop.
Sachmle: engine tech can be acquired. You just gotta ask around.
7.5" was too heavy for a light cruiser and too light for a heavy cruiser by then, Rock. Why build a cruiser with less than the maximum gun size if everyone else isn't?
Hawkins was a victim of the time, just like the Cherry Trees.
Ahoj!
There is the magic of "building to the treaty limits". Regardless if 190mm or 203mm, the early treaty cruisers were not armoured to keep such shells out. But it was a case of "we MUST have 203mm, everybody else has them", and "Oh my God that half inch really makes a difference!".
I suppose that this killed the further use of the RN 7'5 inchers in twin turrets.
The Hawkins were in a way a screwed up design - they were "light cruisers", hence the open, single, mount and hoist guns. But the calibre is simply too large for that sort of thing. Plus technological progress in various areas. The Japanese made the same "mistake" with their first 8 inch gunned class - with 6x1x203mm . Had the Hawkins undergone the same sort of rebuild the IJN did - to 3x2x203mm, they would had been much better. Think about a 3x2 or 4x2x7,5" Hawkins. Even though by early WWII they'd still be rather long in the tooth.
Only the Argentinians showed (?) some sanity, having the Italians build two 3x2x190mm cruisers for them. Of course, the Italians talked them into the 7,5" guns as they couldn't fit the 8 inchers into the the tiny hull the Argentinians were willing to pay for.
I would not even rule out reuse of existing Italian or even Austro-Hungarian guns on those ships.
Borys
Latest attempt:
Santa Fe, NUS Protected Cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1905)
Displacement:
4,329 t light; 4,640 t standard; 5,500 t normal; 6,188 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
370.00 ft / 370.00 ft x 54.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
112.78 m / 112.78 m x 16.46 m x 5.79 m
Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 1 raised mount
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
4 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns in single mounts, 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,712 lbs / 777 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 185
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes, 2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,567 shp / 15,343 Kw = 23.25 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,548 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
319 - 415
Cost:
£0.585 million / $2.342 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 231 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 571 tons, 10.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 35 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 496 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,714 tons, 31.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,752 tons, 31.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,171 tons, 21.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,236 lbs / 1,468 Kg = 30.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 140.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.8 %
Waterplane Area: 13,399 Square feet or 1,245 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 415 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
May cut out the amidships mounts for space consideration or maybe put more in casemates i.e. OTL USN PC Cincinnati (14x1x6" most in casemate)
Ahoj!
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/good-old-ships-argentine-armada-1723.html
Strangely for a forum of such a name, it is about Argentinian warships :)
About the design.
Nice range.
Totally overgunned - 6x6" is enough. Or 2x6"+8x4".
Casemattes on such a small vessel are useless.
Simply make her smaller. Or maybe cut deck to 1 inch, and try a belt?
Borys
Next:
Santa Fe, NUS Protected Cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1905)
Displacement:
3,873 t light; 4,087 t standard; 5,000 t normal; 5,731 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 56.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
114.30 m / 114.30 m x 17.07 m x 5.79 m
Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all amidships, 1 raised mount
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
4 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns in single mounts, 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 912 lbs / 414 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes, 2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,073 shp / 14,975 Kw = 23.66 kts
Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,644 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
296 - 386
Cost:
£0.473 million / $1.892 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 123 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 307 tons, 6.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 23 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 246 tons, 4.9 %
- Conning Tower: 38 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,673 tons, 33.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,710 tons, 34.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,127 tons, 22.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 1.2 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,398 lbs / 1,541 Kg = 31.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 12.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.439
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 133.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.2 %
Waterplane Area: 13,274 Square feet or 1,233 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 411 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.11
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
She needs more speed, get 1909 Turbines. You will need them. Other than that she looks good if a bit overgunned.
Best speed with 1905 turbines w/o making her an too light. Already lighter than San Luis she's replacing
Santa Fe, NUS Protected Cruiser laid down 1909 (Engine 1905)
Displacement:
3,443 t light; 3,613 t standard; 4,400 t normal; 5,030 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
370.00 ft / 370.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
112.78 m / 112.78 m x 12.19 m x 5.79 m
Armament:
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns in single mounts, 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 664 lbs / 301 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes, 2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,920 shp / 14,861 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,250nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,417 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
269 - 351
Cost:
£0.428 million / $1.713 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 90 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 352 tons, 8.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 31 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 286 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 35 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,658 tons, 37.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,293 tons, 29.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 957 tons, 21.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,161 lbs / 980 Kg = 20.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 146.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89.2 %
Waterplane Area: 10,306 Square feet or 957 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 336 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Budget friendly and hard hitting tin can "cruiser"
QuoteNuS proposal IV, French export light cruiser laid down 1909
Displacement:
2.001 t light; 2.081 t standard; 2.417 t normal; 2.685 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
429,79 ft / 426,51 ft x 39,37 ft x 11,32 ft (normal load)
131,00 m / 130,00 m x 12,00 m x 3,45 m
Armament:
3 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 346 lbs / 157 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm -
- Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 14.500 shp / 10.817 Kw = 25,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 604 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
172 - 224
Cost:
£0,208 million / $0,832 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 43 tons, 1,8%
Armour: 38 tons, 1,6%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 30 tons, 1,2%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0,3%
Machinery: 725 tons, 30,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.155 tons, 47,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 416 tons, 17,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1,7%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2.461 lbs / 1.116 Kg = 29,4 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
Metacentric height 1,8 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 12,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0,445
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23,62 ft / 7,20 m
- Forecastle (20%): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m (16,40 ft / 5,00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50%): 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Stern: 14,47 ft / 4,41 m
- Average freeboard: 15,92 ft / 4,85 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176,2%
Waterplane Area: 10.668 Square feet or 991 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 60 lbs/sq ft or 295 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,97
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
You might want to look here and see what the nation to your north is going to lay down next year.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1039.15
Michael