...and with the completion of the new enlarged slip at Puerto Militar the Congreso de la Nación approved funding for the first home grown battleship. To be named in commemoration of the First Government Junta it will be called Veinticinco de Mayo. If the design proves successful and is deemed necessary a second may be funded at a later date and would be named Nueve de Julio in rememberance of Argentine independance from Spain.
EPS Veinticinco de Mayo, USA Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
12,241 t light; 12,904 t standard; 14,475 t normal; 15,731 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
434.00 ft / 434.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 23.50 ft (normal load)
132.28 m / 132.28 m x 21.95 m x 7.16 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 850.00lbs / 385.55kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
14 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,468 lbs / 2,934 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 290.00 ft / 88.39 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 144.00 ft / 43.89 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 17,247 shp / 12,866 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,827 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
659 - 857
Cost:
£1.330 million / $5.320 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 834 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 5,464 tons, 37.7 %
- Belts: 3,122 tons, 21.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,270 tons, 8.8 %
- Armour Deck: 918 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 154 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,437 tons, 9.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,456 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,234 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,136 lbs / 8,227 Kg = 21.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.690
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (14.50 ft / 4.42 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Average freeboard: 16.20 ft / 4.94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.0 %
Waterplane Area: 24,821 Square feet or 2,306 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 627 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Nice. Maybe trade a part of stability for improved firing platform. Chaging the trim to achieve 60% fire platform should not lead to loss of stability reserve.
Borys
Also, I'd advise trading some deck armor for a bit more speed.
Plunging fire isn't a big danger for a few more years... but you might want a touch more speed- at least 19+ knots.
*Blink* :o
She's almost a sister ship to United States!
NSS United States
United States class, New Switzerland Battleship laid down 1905 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
12,409 t light; 13,192 t standard; 15,550 t normal; 17,436 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 24.80 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 167.64 m x 21.34 m x 7.56 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 900.00lbs / 408.23kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
10 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1915 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,812 lbs / 3,090 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 310.00 ft / 94.49 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 67 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,141 shp / 17,263 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,244 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
696 - 905
Cost:
£1.287 million / $5.149 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 824 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 4,937 tons, 31.8 %
- Belts: 2,080 tons, 13.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,271 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,519 tons, 9.8 %
- Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,146 tons, 7.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,351 tons, 34.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,141 tons, 20.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,583 lbs / 9,790 Kg = 25.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.570
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.48 ft / 4.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 112.4 %
Waterplane Area: 27,378 Square feet or 2,543 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 654 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.23
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
There's not much to shave from 2" deck armor. I'd try to get one more knots, just lengthen the ship.
The comparison with the USS United States is not really valid, this ship is a mere 100' shorter, and its side armor coverage is adequate, unlike the other.
Redraft alert:
More speed + redesigned secondaries, little heavier
EPS Veinticinco de Mayo, USA Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
12,486 t light; 13,265 t standard; 14,850 t normal; 16,118 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
432.00 ft / 432.00 ft x 68.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
131.67 m / 131.67 m x 20.73 m x 7.62 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 850.00lbs / 385.55kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
10 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 250.00lbs / 113.40kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, all forward
4 - 2.91" / 74.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 8,248 lbs / 3,741 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 285.00 ft / 86.87 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 147.00 ft / 44.81 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 285.00 ft / 86.87 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 17,448 shp / 13,016 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,853 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
672 - 874
Cost:
£1.527 million / $6.108 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,055 tons, 7.1 %
Armour: 5,429 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 3,096 tons, 20.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,300 tons, 8.8 %
- Armour Deck: 877 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 156 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,454 tons, 9.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,477 tons, 30.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,364 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 0.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,301 lbs / 6,941 Kg = 17.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.708
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.78 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (14.50 ft / 4.42 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Average freeboard: 16.20 ft / 4.94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,708 Square feet or 2,203 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 637 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.81
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
8" is not really optimal for casemate, they'd have the same ROF as the main guns, with no hope to hit anything fast maneuvering, or generally anything past the harbor breakwaters. Block coefficient also getting a bit high.
Check my ORNS Whitwatersrand design here:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=186.3
Throw out some luxury stuff (TB bulkheads) thin down armor and you get a nice fast-ish BB with 6x12" and 20kts on 13000t.
Or you could buy the design for United States...drop a knot and an inch of deck armor and use that for extra side armor.
The sides of the USA ship have better protection that yours has, Fox.
You have 10 feet above the wartline protected by armour, with some 5 feet bare.
Whereas the Vintecinco de Maio has all 16 feet of freeboard under armour.
8 inches upper belt and 10 inches barbette - that' much better than your 11 inch barbettes behind 5 inch upper belt - or sheet steel ...
Borys
The United States design uses 1909 turbines.
Despite that, US survived the worst the enemy threw at it. Swiss battleship sailors swear by the Phoenix Iron Works, after seeing enemy 12" shells just bounce of the armor.
QuoteThe United States design uses 1909 turbines.
Which would be included in any design package. NS is generous.
Thanks DF, but the whole point is this one's homemade.
With 1909 turbines increased speed and still had room to increase belt armor again ;D and shaved 350tons
Veinticinco de Mayo, USA Battleship laid down 1905 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
12,549 t light; 13,211 t standard; 14,500 t normal; 15,531 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
435.00 ft / 435.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
132.59 m / 132.59 m x 21.95 m x 7.32 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 850.00lbs / 385.55kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,444 lbs / 2,923 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 155.00 ft / 47.24 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm - 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 26,678 shp / 19,902 Kw = 21.25 kts
Range 8,250nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,321 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
659 - 858
Cost:
£1.323 million / $5.293 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 830 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 5,753 tons, 39.7 %
- Belts: 3,335 tons, 23.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,356 tons, 9.4 %
- Armour Deck: 908 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 154 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,334 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,512 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,951 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,088 lbs / 7,751 Kg = 19.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.675
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.86 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (14.50 ft / 4.42 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Average freeboard: 16.20 ft / 4.94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.9 %
Waterplane Area: 24,549 Square feet or 2,281 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 636 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.72
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
If the ship is laid down in 1905, then NO Swiss turbines are available, stick with the 1905 ones. Also, it is highly doubtful that the Swiss would be able to deliver those turbines with the current naval blockade against them.
Quote from: P3D on October 14, 2007, 05:28:28 PM
If the ship is laid down in 1905, then NO Swiss turbines are available, stick with the 1905 ones. Also, it is highly doubtful that the Swiss would be able to deliver those turbines with the current naval blockade against them.
it has to be 1905 turbines. and oh they could they would just have to have a true neutral flag carrier transport them... like the french, come on who would atack the french
...the Swiss? ;) No if you want your shipment to arrive safetly you need to contract RPS (Rohan Parcel Service) ;D
Ahoj!
Hmm, maybe a solution for the USA would be the OTL US approach.
No distant interests, a purely self defence fleet. The enemy must come to it.
Thus not so much need for neither range nor speed.
4000 at 10 knots, 18-19 knots. Saved tonnage either goes on armour, or build 4 instead of 3?
Borys
Quote from: Tanthalas on October 14, 2007, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: P3D on October 14, 2007, 05:28:28 PM
If the ship is laid down in 1905, then NO Swiss turbines are available, stick with the 1905 ones. Also, it is highly doubtful that the Swiss would be able to deliver those turbines with the current naval blockade against them.
it has to be 1905 turbines. and oh they could they would just have to have a true neutral flag carrier transport them... like the french, come on who would atack the french
Please do. France only has lost a few ships to New Switserland
Local defence fleet sounds more in style with the area. They will need to be fairly good seaboats if they plan on going around the Horn often. Unless the US has issues with counties that are farther away for some reason.
Looking at the map (was just trying to update it a tad) it is quite posible that USA would have good relations with me (Italia), Brandenburg, Austria Hungery, and Iberia. maybee you want to look over the tech trees for all of us and see if you want some of your ships were built there. For Example in 1905 i was the only one with tripple turrets, and 1000 ton destroyers. Up till 1908 feal at liberty to use my ship yards, after that though talk to me first lol the one you need may be in use.
Actually I would belive the exact oposite, relations between the USA and the Imperialistic Austria/DKB wouldn't be the best in the world.
Brazil is one of those weird places.
Not all that long ago it was under French rule (bought/bullied/stolen from Portugal). Then following the Rohan-Anahuac War, Franch granted a small area of the jungle for the surviving royal line of the Anahuac and the Followers of the Eye (of Sauron)/ This group's religious behavior ran rampant in Brazil and was eventually noticed by Rohirrim, Austrian, Columbian, and Brandenburg forces. The Rohirrim decided to patrol the coastal cities for proof while the Columbians, Austrians, and Brandenburg launched campaigns into the jungle to remove the Anahuac and the Followers of the Eye. They met with success. Austria and Brandenburg held on to their landing points and several square miles of land while Columbia managed to acquire provinces from France.
Shortly afterwards, once Spain and Portugal became more or less stable again after the civil war and socialist revolutions, the new Iberia was granted the remainder of Brazil by France, who viewed the whole mess and an embarrassment.
Italy being there was a recent choice but can be viewed as having been there for a time. But the Iberian, Austrain, and Brandenburg (and Colubian for that matter) holding in Brazil are all new, though having Iberia back may (or may not) be considered a good thing after France leaves.
Ahoj!
The several square miles of land add up to OTL France - the Rio Grande do Sul and Parana each are some 270,000km.
Borys
I agree on the defence fleet concept to a point. I kind of think along the same lines as the US navy in the early 20th century, I have a goal, I'm going to it, you have to stop me, so my ship are not the fastest, but they can take it and dish it out. At least I hope ;) Anyway, here's an update on Veinticinco de Mayo
Veinticinco de Mayo, USA Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
12,631 t light; 13,490 t standard; 14,500 t normal; 15,308 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
434.00 ft / 434.00 ft x 71.00 ft x 23.50 ft (normal load)
132.28 m / 132.28 m x 21.64 m x 7.16 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 850.00lbs / 385.55kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,572 lbs / 2,981 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 282.00 ft / 85.95 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 152.00 ft / 46.33 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 282.00 ft / 85.95 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.5" / 318 mm 8.50" / 216 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.50" / 318 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 17,291 shp / 12,899 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,819 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
659 - 858
Cost:
£1.355 million / $5.422 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 847 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 5,763 tons, 39.7 %
- Belts: 3,397 tons, 23.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,292 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 915 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 160 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,441 tons, 9.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,459 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,870 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 0.8 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,456 lbs / 7,464 Kg = 19.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.701
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -10.00 ft / -3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (14.50 ft / 4.42 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Average freeboard: 16.20 ft / 4.94 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.6 %
Waterplane Area: 24,717 Square feet or 2,296 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 628 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Tough little bugger :)
Taking her out with artillery won't be easy.
My points:
1 - upper belt can be cut down to 8,5 feet. As a bonus this makes a quite natural deck height too;
2 - you cannot fire directly ahead, but that is not a big problem;
Borys
Easily a match for any of Rohan's older battleships (actually superior in some respects). Only would fall prey to the 1900+ designs which are still rather few in number: Freawine (2), and Helm Hammerhand (2 under construction) class battleships plus the Arcadia (2) and Snowmane (1+2 under construction) class battlecruisers.
But the lessons form the latest war show that it is not other BBs but rather DDs and TBs which are the main threat to BBs.
I would cut down armor and use savings for more speed and more Anti-TB guns.
I'd restore the 6000nm@10kts endurance.
You could cut barbette armor to 9-10" as the upper belt is pretty thick.
The rule I use is that the effective strength is the thickest plate plus half the thickness of the thinner ones. So 10"+8" is effectively 14".
Raise about half of the 6" casemates to deck level if not all of them. Raised freeboard until midbreak might be a better idea than a flushdeck with raised forecastle.
On the Belt/turret, round the armor thickness to whole inch.
Cut shells per gun to 100-120.
Increase draught by 1-2'.
What Borys suggested.
If you keep a low displacement, you try to shrink the design to fit in a lvl 1 drydock (120m), then you might want to keep the 5000@10 range.
DDs are a threat only if they have nearby bases.
If one is making a local defensive fleet, torpedoes from destroyers and torpedo boats is rather small since it will be your own force that has all of those type of forces where the aggressor likely has only battleships and cruisers (especially the imperialist powers that need to travel great distances). However I would recommend a more useful placement of the secondary battery for these fairly hostile southern waters. The secondaries may not be as effective as some slighly lighter quikefire guns, but they will devastate any destroyer and torpedo boat in this world (other than maybe the Italian 1,000 ton (light) destroyers) with only a few hits. However with the 6" your ship will be able to do a fair amount of damage to both cruisers and battleships (the 6" might not be able to penetrate a lot of armor but it will still damage the ship at this era's combat ranges).
QuoteBut the lessons form the latest war show that it is not other BBs but rather DDs and TBs which are the main threat to BBs.
With the design being laid down in 1905, she's liable to be fitting out before the latest war even gets going. For what is known in 1905, I think it's very sturdy ship. My only criticism is the high block co-efficient. Better to increase the dimensions and scale the BC down to ~.65.
Well, I think the high BC will give her a unique look... much like the 'en echelon' ironclad battleships that the RN built in the late 1800's. Such BC's and speeds are historical, though they were only a short-lived style of ship.
Tried to incorporate all your great feedback, made a few changes on my own. Waddaya think?
Veinticinco de Mayo, USA Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
12,480 t light; 13,185 t standard; 14,700 t normal; 15,912 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
434.00 ft / 434.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
132.28 m / 132.28 m x 21.95 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
10 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 5,944 lbs / 2,696 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 282.00 ft / 85.95 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 152.00 ft / 46.33 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 282.00 ft / 85.95 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 16,913 shp / 12,617 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 7,750nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,728 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
666 - 867
Cost:
£1.309 million / $5.235 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 803 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 5,715 tons, 38.9 %
- Belts: 3,537 tons, 24.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,160 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 863 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 155 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,409 tons, 9.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,503 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,220 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,966 lbs / 8,149 Kg = 20.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.48
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.621
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -10.00 ft / -3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (30 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (14.50 ft / 4.42 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Average freeboard: 17.05 ft / 5.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,313 Square feet or 2,166 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 639 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Ahoj!
Build!
Borys
I'd decrease stern freeboard to 13', and have 21' freeboard fore the mid-break. Then adjust the mid-point break somewhere between 40 and 75%, to get 1 composite strength.
Main belt is too high. And a sketch usually help you determine what upper belt height you want to enters, as it varies.
Ahoj!
Oh - I looked at the average freeboard, not amidships. Yup - 7 (14/2) +7,5 is enough.
And maybe do put the 6 inchers into casemattes - you can do that on weatherdeck level.
Borys
Veinticinco de Mayo, USA Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
12,395 t light; 13,177 t standard; 14,692 t normal; 15,904 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
434.00 ft / 434.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
132.28 m / 132.28 m x 21.95 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,472 lbs / 2,936 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 282.00 ft / 85.95 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 152.00 ft / 46.33 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 282.00 ft / 85.95 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 18,702 shp / 13,952 Kw = 19.50 kts
Range 7,750nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,727 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
666 - 867
Cost:
£1.386 million / $5.545 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 874 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 5,396 tons, 36.7 %
- Belts: 3,238 tons, 22.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,140 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 862 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 155 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,558 tons, 10.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,517 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,297 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,082 lbs / 7,295 Kg = 18.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.33
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.621
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -10.00 ft / -3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (40 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.20 ft / 4.94 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.3 %
Waterplane Area: 23,306 Square feet or 2,165 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 647 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1905
Displacement:
12 393 t light; 13 069 t standard; 14 527 t normal; 15 693 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
434,00 ft / 434,00 ft x 72,00 ft x 26,50 ft (normal load)
132,28 m / 132,28 m x 21,95 m x 8,08 m
Armament:
6 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 800,00lbs / 362,87kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,00lbs / 5,90kg shells, 1905 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6 078 lbs / 2 757 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 282,00 ft / 85,95 m 14,00 ft / 4,27 m
Ends: 4,00" / 102 mm 152,00 ft / 46,33 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m
Upper: 8,00" / 203 mm 282,00 ft / 85,95 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4,00" / 102 mm - 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 16 750 shp / 12 496 Kw = 19,00 kts
Range 7 500nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 624 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
661 - 860
Cost:
£1,318 million / $5,272 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 820 tons, 5,6%
Armour: 5 473 tons, 37,7%
- Belts: 3 111 tons, 21,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 1 351 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 857 tons, 5,9%
- Conning Tower: 154 tons, 1,1%
Machinery: 1 396 tons, 9,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 604 tons, 31,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 134 tons, 14,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,7%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18 050 lbs / 8 187 Kg = 20,9 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
Roll period: 15,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,60
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,614
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20,83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,00 ft / 7,32 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
- Mid (50%): 18,00 ft / 5,49 m (15,00 ft / 4,57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Stern: 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
- Average freeboard: 17,79 ft / 5,42 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,9%
Waterplane Area: 23 155 Square feet or 2 151 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 651 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,91
- Longitudinal: 2,24
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather