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Main Archive => Navalism 3 Armed Forces => Armed Forces => New Ship Designs => Topic started by: The Rock Doctor on September 29, 2007, 07:07:17 PM

Title: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: The Rock Doctor on September 29, 2007, 07:07:17 PM
Since nobody's posted anything today, I may as well let the cats out of the bag.

The revised Triunfante class battleships will be laid down in 1909.  A few changes have been made to the design:

-The hull sits a bit lower in the water, so will cost me a bit more.

-The forward turret arrangement has been changed to A-Bs; though the design does not make it clear, it will be a new gun design, too.  Sighting hoods have been removed from the turrets, allowing fire over other turrets.

-Consequently, additional 14 cm guns have been added to the secondary battery, at the expense of tertiary and QF battery guns

-More compact, higher superstructure forward

-Improved armor protection (the belt length reflects what the picture tells me I need, not what the SS report says)

-Slightly faster, with oil-sprayed coal-firing boilers; though the range has gone down, it's acceptable for GC standards.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/sharpj/triunfante4.png)
Top view as originally designed; bottom view as revised and to be built...


Triunfante/Porfiado, to be laid down 1909

Displacement:
   22,692 t light; 23,935 t standard; 25,284 t normal; 26,364 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560.01 ft / 557.74 ft x 95.14 ft x 25.66 ft (normal load)
   170.69 m / 170.00 m x 29.00 m  x 7.82 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      18 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward
     18 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading anti-airship guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 12,323 lbs / 5,589 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   396.98 ft / 121.00 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   160.76 ft / 49.00 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   396.98 ft / 121.00 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      0.98" / 25 mm   396.98 ft / 121.00 m   24.31 ft / 7.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      12.6" / 320 mm
   2nd:   12.6" / 320 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      12.6" / 320 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 12.60" / 320 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,000 shp / 23,872 Kw = 20.82 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,429 tons)

Complement:
   1,002 - 1,303

Cost:
   £2.310 million / $9.239 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,540 tons, 6.1 %
   Armour: 9,446 tons, 37.4 %
      - Belts: 3,699 tons, 14.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 351 tons, 1.4 %
      - Armament: 3,386 tons, 13.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,777 tons, 7.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 234 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,584 tons, 6.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,742 tons, 38.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,593 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 378 tons, 1.5 %
   -77 t:  50mm thick splinter bulkheads separating 140mm casemates 4&5, and 6&7, on each beam
   -50 t:  Long range wireless, short range wireless, and extra flag signals facilties
   -50 t:  Flag facilities
   -50 t:  VIP accommodation
   -50 t:  Extra pumps and generators for damage control
   -101 t:  Weight reserve

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27,937 lbs / 12,672 Kg = 32.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.41

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.650
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.97 ft / 7.00 m (15.09 ft / 4.60 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Stern:      15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.27 ft / 5.87 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 40,652 Square feet or 3,777 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 881 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on September 29, 2007, 10:08:17 PM
U.S.S. Wyoming eh... great now i have to come up with somthing new.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Carthaginian on September 29, 2007, 10:12:11 PM
Very scary... she lacks that certain 'strangeness' that made the original so cool, but is a pretty capable and pretty looking ship. Very handy and very powerful. The pair will make GC very respected in the world of turret farms.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on September 29, 2007, 10:29:05 PM
GC just needs to bribe me and get my trip turrets, then they could have 12 guns with 4 turrets. 
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on September 30, 2007, 01:23:47 AM
Ahoj!
Are you sure you can't find space for turret no. 7?

Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Ithekro on September 30, 2007, 01:43:28 AM
Baby steps.  ;D
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on September 30, 2007, 03:49:37 AM
Ahoj!
Are all the turbines between the boiler rooms and P and Q turrets, or is half of the turbines between Q and X?

The ship looks as if it lacked space for turbines.

Maybe eliminate stack 3,  to show space for the turbines. And/or maybe also space out Q and X a bit.

Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: The Rock Doctor on September 30, 2007, 06:05:17 AM
QuoteAre all the turbines between the boiler rooms and P and Q turrets, or is half of the turbines between Q and X?

I have no idea where the turbines would be; having based the design on USS Wyoming/Arkansas, with similar-ish dimensions, machinery and armament, I'd assume something similar to them.  I don't know what that does for funnel arrangements.

QuoteGC just needs to bribe me and get my trip turrets, then they could have 12 guns with 4 turrets.

Appreciate the opportunity to slip Italy bribes, but GC can develop them itself.  It was a conscious decision not to do so in this case.  I don't like the look, and will take the redundancy/rate of fire advantage of six twins over the weight-savings of four triples.

QuoteU.S.S. Wyoming eh... great now i have to come up with somthing new.

Unless you think GC and Italy have reasons to butt heads, I don't think that's really true.  Well, okay, maybe the Italian leadership will want to engage in the proverbial pissing contest.

Quoteshe lacks that certain 'strangeness' that made the original so cool

Regretably true.  Oh well.  The look's still relatively unique for this world.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on September 30, 2007, 11:25:24 AM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on September 30, 2007, 06:05:17 AM
QuoteAre all the turbines between the boiler rooms and P and Q turrets, or is half of the turbines between Q and X?



QuoteU.S.S. Wyoming eh... great now i have to come up with somthing new.

Unless you think GC and Italy have reasons to butt heads, I don't think that's really true.  Well, okay, maybe the Italian leadership will want to engage in the proverbial pissing contest.



Nah Italy just likes wierd ships, and since someone is already building Wyoming ill have to come up with somthing else wierd to build. =P
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on September 30, 2007, 12:29:57 PM
Ahoj!
Gypsy crone looking into crystal ball
... I see an eight turret ship in your future ...
Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Desertfox on September 30, 2007, 06:01:32 PM
Ah yes...:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1252.0
;D

This ship is not a turret farm, a N-Verse T Farm must have at least 8 twin turrets to qualify, a semi-T Farm must have either 6 twins or  8 with half being twins. So far no ship yet qualifies for true T-Farm status, but Satsuma and GN both qualify as semi-Turret Farms.

@ Rocky, the first ship definately had that intimidation factor going for it. Imagine the look on the Admiral who manages to cross the GC Fleet's T! Now if the original ship had had two superstructures, now that would have been scary!

@ Thanthalas. Want weird? How about an Andrea Doria with quads and triples instead of triples and twins? That would be...say 18 guns in 5 turrets!
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on September 30, 2007, 06:21:44 PM
Quote from: Desertfox on September 30, 2007, 06:01:32 PM
Ah yes...:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1252.0
;D

This ship is not a turret farm, a N-Verse T Farm must have at least 8 twin turrets to qualify, a semi-T Farm must have either 6 twins or  8 with half being twins. So far no ship yet qualifies for true T-Farm status, but Satsuma and GN both qualify as semi-Turret Farms.

@ Rocky, the first ship definately had that intimidation factor going for it. Imagine the look on the Admiral who manages to cross the GC Fleet's T! Now if the original ship had had two superstructures, now that would have been scary!

@ Thanthalas. Want weird? How about an Andrea Doria with quads and triples instead of triples and twins? That would be...say 18 guns in 5 turrets!

18 guns drools
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Ithekro on September 30, 2007, 07:40:36 PM
Hmmm.  So will the first true "turret farm" ship be the designation for all of the type that come after her?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/ithekro/9793a11e.gif)

This is a little advanced (not much though) and also only armed with 8" guns, but would this qualify?
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Carthaginian on September 30, 2007, 08:08:41 PM
LOL

Look everybody, a fireworks stand!
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: P3D on September 30, 2007, 08:17:19 PM
Looks like the Navalism dutch AFs. Wing turret magazines to protect machinery spaces.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Carthaginian on September 30, 2007, 08:28:40 PM
I just find myself wondering if Capitan Taylor's first name was 'Andy.'
;)
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Ithekro on September 30, 2007, 08:34:17 PM
Doubtful.  It is an "irresponsible" ship, named for an irresponsible, but very lucky, destroyer captain.

She is however the "White Elephant" of the Chilean Navy.  Her prime task it to show the flag at important events and fleet reviews, thus keeping the more valuble ships in Chilean waters most of the time (though sometimes the American build "Coastal Defense Battleship" goes on these types of missions instead, but only if it is more local.  Tylor has longer legs.)
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on September 30, 2007, 10:12:52 PM
san we have a ss report on that... i might want to build one
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Ithekro on September 30, 2007, 11:35:35 PM
You might be abel to build a low tech version of her.  right now she's a bit powerful in the engine department.  At least for 1908.  (two versions given)


Capitan Tylor

Chilean Heavy Armoured Cruiser laid down 1926 (Wesworld)

Displacement:
16,632 t light; 17,486 t standard; 20,013 t normal; 21,955 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
606.00 ft / 595.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
184.71 m / 181.36 m x 25.91 m x 7.62 m

Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 276.24lbs / 125.30kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 276.24lbs / 125.30kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
14 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1926 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
20 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,019 lbs / 2,277 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 345.50 ft / 105.31 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 345.50 ft / 105.31 m 23.50 ft / 7.16 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 8.50" / 216 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
4th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 8.50" / 216 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 81,503 shp / 60,801 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 16.50 kts (Bunkerage = 4,549 tons)

Complement:
840 - 1,093

Cost:
£4.976 million / $19.904 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 587 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 5,596 tons, 28.0 %
- Belts: 1,560 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 300 tons, 1.5 %
- Armament: 1,691 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,908 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Tower: 135 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,609 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,690 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,381 tons, 16.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,450 lbs / 11,090 Kg = 95.5 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.39 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.44 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.83 ft / 6.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,384 Square feet or 3,194 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 732 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.73
- Overall: 1.06
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Such as this one perhaps.


Captain Tylor, USA (Argentina) Heavy Armoured Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   16,336 t light; 17,161 t standard; 20,000 t normal; 22,191 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   604.00 ft / 595.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   184.10 m / 181.36 m x 25.91 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      14 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      20 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,695 lbs / 2,130 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.50" / 216 mm   390.00 ft / 118.87 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   390.00 ft / 118.87 m   23.50 ft / 7.16 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.50" / 216 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   8.50" / 216 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   3.00" / 76 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 8.50" / 216 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 24.50 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 5,109 tons)

Complement:
   840 - 1,093

Cost:
   £1.401 million / $5.603 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 587 tons, 2.9 %
   Armour: 5,790 tons, 29.0 %
      - Belts: 1,716 tons, 8.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 339 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armament: 1,693 tons, 8.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,908 tons, 9.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 135 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,400 tons, 12.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,409 tons, 37.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,664 tons, 18.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27,766 lbs / 12,595 Kg = 108.5 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.62

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.39 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.44 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.35 ft / 6.81 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,370 Square feet or 3,193 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 130 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 709 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.04
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on September 30, 2007, 11:47:47 PM
Ahoj!
IMO not to be approached if you're not armed with 11 inch or larger guns.
She'll simply bury you under a storm of 8" shells.

Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on September 30, 2007, 11:49:21 PM
that thingy is scary... and EXPENSIVE
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on September 30, 2007, 11:52:21 PM
Ahoj!
Yes, all that gunmetal costs :)
She costs 2/3rds of my battleships currently under construction.

Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on September 30, 2007, 11:55:09 PM
brings to mind what i was playing with for a fast cruiser.  but i decided she wasnt worth it.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Ithekro on September 30, 2007, 11:58:24 PM
Expensive yes. She was designed (in 1926) as a throwback to the armored cruiser line of warships instead of going with the battlecruiser type.  She was intended to be able to combat two "Treaty" Heavy Cruisers at once, thus she has heavy armor and 16 x 8" guns (though not all can engage one target).  She was also intended to be able to engage what was considered the largest cruiser in the world at that time (A Wesworld Iberian ship called El Cid), but aside from rate of fire, the El Cid is superior with larger guns and thicker about as thick armor.  

Tylor's successor, the Capitan Oyama, would mount 9 x 10" guns and have 33+ knots of speed, as well as 4" of deck armor to be able to be a match for El Cid and her 12x9.4" cannons.  Also building more than one Oyama helps since there is only one El Cid.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Ithekro on September 30, 2007, 11:59:32 PM
The 1909 version is probably too big for what she does or what anyone here might need.  She can probably be cut down in size and retain her guns.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on October 01, 2007, 12:01:56 AM
I realy wonder if there would be a reason to build anything like this, well in the here and now of our time line.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2007, 12:11:22 AM
Ahoj!

I think that with a pyramid arangement aft, i.e. 9 turrets, I could try to sell this design to the French ...

Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Ithekro on October 01, 2007, 12:17:32 AM
Well with fire control likely coming into being I would wager that a ship of this type verses a battlecruiser at range would not be a good idea.  Especially if the battlecruiser can dictate the range.  If it can get in close enough to engage with her rather large 8" battery, then she would give any battlecruiser grief (well any battlecruiser with less than 9" of armor on a large belt anyway).

The 1909 version is quite fast for an armored cruiser and practically matched this eras battlecruisers in speed. 

The 1926 version would be able to keep up with the battlecruisers, but that is a much more powerful and more advanced engine.

Now imagine this with 9" or 10" guns....
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on October 01, 2007, 12:20:55 AM
RM Gun Farm, Italia Gun Farm laid down 1908 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   14,219 t light; 14,797 t standard; 16,500 t normal; 17,863 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   530.00 ft / 528.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   161.54 m / 160.93 m x 24.38 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,812 lbs / 2,183 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   418.49 ft / 127.56 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   109.49 ft / 33.37 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   418.49 ft / 127.56 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 122 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   418.49 ft / 127.56 m   23.78 ft / 7.25 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 20,201 ihp / 15,070 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,066 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   727 - 946

Cost:
   £1.413 million / $5.651 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 602 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 4,954 tons, 30.0 %
      - Belts: 2,035 tons, 12.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 368 tons, 2.2 %
      - Armament: 1,387 tons, 8.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,066 tons, 6.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 98 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 2,928 tons, 17.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,676 tons, 34.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,281 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,528 lbs / 8,858 Kg = 76.3 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.526
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.60 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.98 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.73 ft / 5.71 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 28,821 Square feet or 2,678 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 659 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.58
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2007, 12:23:00 AM
Ahoj!
It is RN = Regia Nave, not RM.

Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on October 01, 2007, 12:27:57 AM
Gah they are side by side and im drunk....
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Borys on October 01, 2007, 12:29:49 AM
Ahoj!
1 - you could had been confused by Regia Marina

2 - we are not interested, "don't ask, don't tell"

3 - go to bed

Borys
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Tanthalas on October 01, 2007, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: Borys on October 01, 2007, 12:29:49 AM
Ahoj!
1 - you could had been confused by Regia Marina

2 - we are not interested, "don't ask, don't tell"

3 - go to bed

Borys

LOL im bout to =P
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: The Rock Doctor on October 01, 2007, 08:49:16 AM
This thread has certainly gone off on a tangent.

Turret farm or not, Triunfante's successor will likely have less - either twins of a larger caliber, or quads of some kind.  I've modelled a scaled-up version with 13" guns in six twins, but a 3x4 arrangement may be technically possible by the time I build it.

The two versions of the ship do offer similar firepower ahead, they just happen to produce full twelve-gun broadsides now.  Better to cross my T than line up parallel to me...

Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: Carthaginian on October 01, 2007, 08:57:29 AM
LOL... with 6 twins, and two of them superfiring, even crossing the T would be a bit dicey, because while you are steaming perpendicular to the GC line, at least 2 of the aft turrets will be able to fire on you for at least 50% of the time as well.

The design is as sound, if not moreso, than most running around now.
Title: Re: Triunfante revisited...
Post by: The Rock Doctor on October 01, 2007, 10:16:35 AM
"Go ahead...cross my T"