Ok, the CSA's old pre-dread battleships are barely serviceable in their present incarnations. Their 12" guns are only 35 caliber and they have nothing in the way of range. This is an attempt at a rebuild to make them useful CDS that will give at least another decade or two of service.
I replaced the old 12"/35 cal guns with the new 12"/45 cal 800-pounder guns that I'm researching, added in three 7.5"/45 cal 200-pounder twin turrets to replace the old short 6" guns. There are fewer gun tubes now, but they have better range and penetration than the 6" guns. I also replaced the old 3"/12-pounder anti-TB guns with the new 3.5"/50 caliber 25-pounders that I'm researching.
New engines (still VTE, but modern ones) give an extra knot of speed and more than double the cruising range of the originals. The superstructure has been cut down to a minimum setup and some heavy 1" machine guns have been installed. Also, a Marconi and other new innovations have been added to the ship, hence the huge increase in Misc. Weight. All in all, the ships gained 4 tons of normal displacement.
The original ship:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=742.msg4915#msg4915 (http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=742.msg4915#msg4915)
The refitted ship:
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Navalism/TexasCDS.png)
San Jocento (ex-Texas), Confederate States of America Armorclad laid down 1895 (Engine 1910)
Displacement:
9,700 t light; 10,253 t standard; 11,164 t normal; 11,893 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
405.00 ft / 400.00 ft x 73.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
123.44 m / 121.92 m x 22.25 m x 6.40 m
Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1909 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (2x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
2 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (1x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1908 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
12 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,704 lbs / 2,134 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 6.00" / 152 mm 120.00 ft / 36.58 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
3rd: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
5th: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,999 ihp / 11,189 Kw = 18.97 kts
Range 8,200nm at 10.87 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,640 tons
Complement:
542 - 705
Cost:
£0.990 million / $3.960 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 623 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 3,667 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 2,083 tons, 18.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 863 tons, 7.7 %
- Armour Deck: 613 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 108 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 909 tons, 8.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,155 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,464 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 345 tons, 3.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,139 lbs / 6,413 Kg = 16.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.637
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.80 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (60 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.39 ft / 4.39 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.6 %
Waterplane Area: 22,107 Square feet or 2,054 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 683 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.85
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
So, what do ya'll think?
Would it be worth something like this to get a serviceable CDS, or am I better off making her into razorblades?
I was thinkin sort of the same thing with my older ones, so for me i would say yes.
Well, I would have ordered something new built, but hey... cheaper is cheaper, and I only want these ships to discourage someone getting too close to the coast. I don't expect them to actually kill a modern battleship; but I do hope they could damage one a bit.
This reconstruction would cost me 1.45 BP for 3 halves... not a bad deal.
I wish I could have kept 100-pounders guns for the secondaries, but alas, that was not to be. At least the 200-pounders can be fired in all sea states, being as they could be mounted in turrets. If I thought it worth going a whole-hog reconstruction, I could have tried adding turbines as well... but that is just too much money to spend on a ship this old.
Anyone else care to comment?
It's not bad, but what can you do with new construction using 5.8 BP (4.35 in new construction, + scrap value of San Jacinto)?
Well, I could build 6 new cans, but you only need so many of them. ;)
Since I could get a decade or so more service out of her, I think that it might be worth it.
After that, I could probably find a buyer in NZ, the Frianj, or some other minor NPC nation.
Ahoj!
Very nice Mid Life Refit.
Frankly, I'm tempted to buy the original version ... how much do you want for the pair?
Borys
NS will beat any offer in the market by 20%. ;)
I'm preetier.
Quote from: Desertfox on September 13, 2007, 09:18:53 AM
NS will beat any offer in the market by 20%. ;)
But what if we're not in it for the money... ;)
So the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS? Pity you don't have a Monroe Doctrine. The Austrians have been messing around in America far more than NS...
Quote from: Desertfox on September 13, 2007, 09:35:24 AM
So the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS? Pity you don't have a Monroe Doctrine. The Austrians have been messing around in America far more than NS...
LOL... religion isn't an issue in the CSA, so never count on it as a motivating factor in internatonal affairs.*
Remember, roughly 40% of my population is Catholic, 40% is Protestant, 10% is Native American Shamanism, and the remaining 10% is devided fairly equally between followers of the Old Religion of Rohan, Bhuddists, and non-believing heathens.
However, the ships are not for sale- that's what the 'not in it for the money' meant.
I'm running those old girls till their bottoms wear out.
I'm behind in the battleship race in North America; they are my insulation against being ompletely overtaken.
*The CSA can only be relied upon for one thing in religion and politics:
No Mohammedians need apply.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 12, 2007, 10:13:08 PM
Ok, the CSA's old pre-dread battleships are barely serviceable in their present incarnations. Their 12" guns are only 35 caliber and they have nothing in the way of range. This is an attempt at a rebuild to make them useful CDS that will give at least another decade or two of service.
I replaced the old 12"/35 cal guns with the new 12"/45 cal 800-pounder guns that I'm researching, added in three 7.5"/45 cal 200-pounder twin turrets to replace the old short 6" guns. There are fewer gun tubes now, but they have better range and penetration than the 6" guns. I also replaced the old 3"/12-pounder anti-TB guns with the new 3.5"/50 caliber 25-pounders that I'm researching.
So, what do ya'll think?
Would it be worth something like this to get a serviceable CDS, or am I better off making her into razorblades?
Well, if you can afford to be without her, I think she should be scrapped.
A rebuild will be pretty expensive, and not really make a huge improvement, she will still only be usable as a huge CD ship, and you could get a modern, almost as good CD ship for the same cost.
Or you could build 2 modern minelayers and bunch of sweepers for the same cost, something that would do more to discourage people from cruising up and down the cost.
Quote from: Korpen on September 13, 2007, 09:54:07 AM
Well, if you can afford to be without her, I think she should be scrapped.
A rebuild will be pretty expensive, and not really make a huge improvement, she will still only be usable as a huge CD ship, and you could get a modern, almost as good CD ship for the same cost.
Or you could build 2 modern minelayers and bunch of sweepers for the same cost, something that would do more to discourage people from cruising up and down the cost.
I don't think I could be without her, otherwise I'd have not planned to put so much into her.
I need those heavy gun tubes at sea, and this is the cheapest way to get them there. The Pacific coast isn't a really high priority; 3 of these ships refitted over the next 4-5 years would give me a good defense-oriented force, especially considering the massive loss of capital ships in the Pacific Rim powers. Frankly, it'll take the DKB and NS at least that long to gain a force of ships that could threaten these ships after this refit... and probably it'll take them a lot longer to build a comfortable enough margin to fight them and risk loosing.
These ships supported by a few good scout cruisers and a good destroyer fleet will provide security, if not striking power, for my Pacific fleet until about 1918.
Oh, the CSA don't do mines.
Look at the coastal currents in our waters.
The mines will risk more harm to our own ships than anyone else's since the currents will simply sweep them along our coastlines rather than taking them out to sea.
I guess what I meant by my question was if the CSA could build a strudy CDS on 5,800 t light that would give the refitted San Jacinto a run for her money. You can build a six-pack of cans, yes, that is true. Korpen offers a sound alternative, too.
QuoteSo the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS?
Hey - you're part monarchy too, Foxy.
I've gotten a distinct sense from multiple posts that the CSA does not like NS whatsoever. I've no real doubt that the Austrians are better thought of in Richmond, regardless of how pretty Borys may think he is (*shudders*).
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on September 13, 2007, 10:01:11 AM
I guess what I meant by my question was if the CSA could build a strudy CDS on 5,800 t light that would give the refitted San Jacinto a run for her money. You can build a six-pack of cans, yes, that is true. Korpen offers a sound alternative, too.
Well, all my 6kt coastal design studies have come up a bit short.
I might try another since I was using 13.5" guns instead of 12" guns on the others, though.
Still, just somethnig about having the ship ready in 2 halves rather than 3 halves makes me like the refit better.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on September 13, 2007, 10:01:11 AM
QuoteSo the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS?
Hey - you're part monarchy too, Foxy.
I've gotten a distinct sense from multiple posts that the CSA does not like NS whatsoever. I've no real doubt that the Austrians are better thought of in Richmond, regardless of how pretty Borys may think he is (*shudders*).
NS started a war of aggression against many nations that the CSA had good relations with; that's generally not a good thing to do, even if on good terms with a nation yourself.
The Habsburgs are not a favorite in Richmond, either- public opinion favors the Brandenburgers on the German Issue- but the public of the CSA is warming towards them as the war progresses. The closer the war brings the two Germanic States, the more friendly the CSA will get with the Habsburger Kaiserreich.
Still, NS is not beyond redemption in the CSA... yet.
A speedy end to the war they started would be a first step towards reconciliation.
Quote...especially considering the massive loss of capital ships in the Pacific Rim powers. Frankly, it'll take the DKB and NS at least that long to gain a force of ships that could threaten these ships after this refit... and probably it'll take them a lot longer to build a comfortable enough margin to fight them and risk loosing.
...Especially with the second-hand ship market being more-or-less tapped out. BP are hard to come by, so there's greater awareness of the value of scrapping one's surplus rather than selling it. Everything's going to have to be built new, capacity is limited, and few are willing to divert their own capacity to build for somebody else.
One wonders how many of the participants in the current conflict will rate as significant powers in five or ten years...
Rock, that is a MAJOR reason for deciding to rebuild these ships rather than scrap them.
'Obsolete' is only 'useless' when it's confronted by more capable modern tech. As long as the Pacific is not filled to busting with modern battleships, these middle-age ships will be useful against ships coming close to my coasts.
With the rebuild, they would even be workable as slow but powerful high-seas partol vessels. Shoot, with some Misc. Weight to booms, hoses and pumps and I could use them as an improvised tender for my new destroyers. They could become flagships for self-sufficient long-duration coastal patrol groups.
They are, currently, just too useful to get rid of; and, thanks to the war, tehy are likely to remain useful for some time to come.
This is a valid point - though to be fair, I think I've adopted the philosophy of "replace everything old, even if it means no numerical increase".
You probably could rebuild the ships as high-seas patrol vessels, but do you need such a function? Other than Haiti, you have no significant offshore posessions to patrol to.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on September 13, 2007, 11:16:16 AM
This is a valid point - though to be fair, I think I've adopted the philosophy of "replace everything old, even if it means no numerical increase".
I'm doing that too... ;) I'm just not throwing out some older ships as I build new ones. My old armored cruisers and protected cruisers has gots to go, but the older battleships can still be used.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on September 13, 2007, 11:16:16 AMYou probably could rebuild the ships as high-seas patrol vessels, but do you need such a function? Other than Haiti, you have no significant offshore posessions to patrol to.
Well, the Pacific is a BIG ocean... and it's got active all the sudden.
It'd never hurt to have an early warning screen out there... or possible station ships for any possessions that might be up for sale soon.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 13, 2007, 10:00:25 AM
Quote from: Korpen on September 13, 2007, 09:54:07 AM
Well, if you can afford to be without her, I think she should be scrapped.
A rebuild will be pretty expensive, and not really make a huge improvement, she will still only be usable as a huge CD ship, and you could get a modern, almost as good CD ship for the same cost.
Or you could build 2 modern minelayers and bunch of sweepers for the same cost, something that would do more to discourage people from cruising up and down the cost.
I don't think I could be without her, otherwise I'd have not planned to put so much into her.
I need those heavy gun tubes at sea, and this is the cheapest way to get them there. The Pacific coast isn't a really high priority; 3 of these ships refitted over the next 4-5 years would give me a good defense-oriented force, especially considering the massive loss of capital ships in the Pacific Rim powers. Frankly, it'll take the DKB and NS at least that long to gain a force of ships that could threaten these ships after this refit... and probably it'll take them a lot longer to build a comfortable enough margin to fight them and risk loosing.
These ships supported by a few good scout cruisers and a good destroyer fleet will provide security, if not striking power, for my Pacific fleet until about 1918.
QuoteOh, the CSA don't do mines.
Look at the coastal currents in our waters.
The mines will risk more harm to our own ships than anyone else's since the currents will simply sweep them along our coastlines rather than taking them out to sea.
Tried putting an anchor on the mines? ;)
I don't quite by the currents argument, but it seems the seafloor is dropping of quickly of the CSA pacific cost, and that limits the use of mines quite allot, as laying mines in water much more then 300-400m is not really possible.
Hm, if you want to keep them, then my advice would be to keep them, but not upgrading them at all. After all, for the missions you outlined, her main function would be to exist as a deterrent, and for that she is plenty good enough for at least five years more. By then you should have a good idea about future needs, hopefully. :)
Quote from: Korpen on September 13, 2007, 12:07:08 PM
Tried putting an anchor on the mines? ;)
Well, anchor cables do rust. ;)
The Gulf Stream would mean mines laid across the Southern coast would simply circle the Gulf, and then become a hazard in the Straits of Florida.
The California current would sweep any mines south along my coast, and then carry them out to sea only after endangering all my Pacific shipping.
Neither of these is a good thing.
Quote from: Korpen on September 13, 2007, 12:07:08 PM
I don't quite by the currents argument, but it seems the seafloor is dropping of quickly of the CSA pacific cost, and that limits the use of mines quite allot, as laying mines in water much more then 300-400m is not really possible.
I didn't think about that, but it's another reason that mines would be a bad idea.
Quote from: Korpen on September 13, 2007, 12:07:08 PMHm, if you want to keep them, then my advice would be to keep them, but not upgrading them at all. After all, for the missions you outlined, her main function would be to exist as a deterrent, and for that she is plenty good enough for at least five years more. By then you should have a good idea about future needs, hopefully. :)
Well, their guns no longer have the range to threaten a modern ship.
Any other 12" BB in the world could stand safely out of range and shell her to pieces. At least with the main guns refitted, she would be able to fire at similar ranges. She'd still be slower, but she'd at least be able to return fire. Also, she could serve as a station ship, a tender ship, and varrious other 'temporary' roles as needed if refitted. And getting her off coal is a big priority. The rest of the Navy is going to oil firing, and she needs to follow.
Quote from: Carthaginian on September 13, 2007, 12:15:02 PM
Well, anchor cables do rust. ;)
The Gulf Stream would mean mines laid across the Southern coast would simply circle the Gulf, and then become a hazard in the Straits of Florida.
The California current would sweep any mines south along my coast, and then carry them out to sea only after endangering all my Pacific shipping.
Neither of these is a good thing.
But if you happen to have some stockpiles of mines you are not going to use, can I buy them?
Not a lot just enough for a mine laying sortie or two (1000-2000 mines). ;)
QuoteWell, their guns no longer have the range to threaten a modern ship.
Any other 12" BB in the world could stand safely out of range and shell her to pieces. At least with the main guns refitted, she would be able to fire at similar ranges. She'd still be slower, but she'd at least be able to return fire. Also, she could serve as a station ship, a tender ship, and varrious other 'temporary' roles as needed if refitted. And getting her off coal is a big priority. The rest of the Navy is going to oil firing, and she needs to follow.
Even if rebuilt she is still going to be massively outclassed by a modern BB. My point is that none of the functions you outlined are really pressing. There are no modern BBs in service in the pacific yet, and not many of them under construction either. The CSA does not really lose much by postponing a refit a few years, while the gain might be as much as 5BP.
With the upcoming modified reconstruction rules (no cost for reconstruction), any advantage gained from changing the engines is marginal. The question is, however, manpower issue. A 6000t ship would have 60-70% the crew (200 less), and would also require lower support infrastructure. If the naval service is using conscript seamen, it is not a problem, but a full professional navy might prefer to have 1 CDBB and one cruiser instead of one old PDN.
Also, a 12K ton old ship can usually withstand more punishment than a 6K ton new one, and would have better range.
Orange selling 3 BBs to the Swiss solved some manning issues (even if those were in reserve).
Regarding CSA attitude with NS.
CSA is the main oil supplier of NS right now. With the optempo, only the continuing shipments keep NSN going.
Ahoj!
Replacing VTE with turbines is not an option - I'm adding this just in case.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on September 13, 2007, 12:41:43 PM
Ahoj!
Replacing VTE with turbines is not an option - I'm adding this just in case.
Borys
I thought it was allowed under reconstruction rules, with the possibility of side effects.
Apparently not.
Ahoj!
The shafts in VE and Turbine powered ships run at different angles to the bottom. It is possible, but probably costs as much as a new ship ...
Borys
QuoteFrankly, it'll take the DKB and NS at least that long to gain a force of ships that could threaten these ships after this refit... and probably it'll take them a lot longer to build a comfortable enough margin to fight them and risk loosing.
I don't see why your worried about the Pacific, in fact you should be glad that there's a lot fewer ships now that you have to counter. ;) Frankly the last place NS and the DKB will look at is the CSA, we will be too busy fighting each other.
QuoteHey - you're part monarchy too, Foxy
But a Parlimentary Monarchy with the Queen mearly as a figurehead. More Republic than Monarchy.
QuoteNS started a war of aggression against many nations that the CSA had good relations with; that's generally not a good thing to do, even if on good terms with a nation yourself.
I started a War against ONE nation. The others then started their own War of Aggression against NS.
QuoteStill, NS is not beyond redemption in the CSA... yet.
A speedy end to the war they started would be a first step towards reconciliation.
Tried it twice before, but each time someone else decided to join. Makes it quite difficult to end a war that way.
QuoteRegarding CSA attitude with NS.
CSA is the main oil supplier of NS right now. With the optempo, only the continuing shipments keep NSN going.
I have my own Oil Supplies, enough for the time being, and right now most of my ships are Coal Fired. Plus I can also get Oil form the Ottomans, Oil is still not contraband.
QuoteI have my own Oil Supplies, enough for the time being, and right now most of my ships are Coal Fired. Plus I can also get Oil form the Ottomans, Oil is still not contraband.
Most of your fast ships rely on oil firing to reach max speed. Destroyers, LCs. There are some oil reserves, but they are limited, especially as the oil-firing ships were introduced pretty recently. You could still operate for months, but with economy, and pray for a conclusion of the war before it gets felt.
Currently there is oil production in the following countries:
CSA
UNK
Russia
Persia
DOI - reduced production due to the destruction of its main field
Austria
Rohan (although most Californian oilfields are in CSA territory)
Ottomans does not have any oil production whatsoever. Nevermind, that you would have to deliver those supplies to Australia, which might be problematic with all the navigable straits mined or blocked.
But remember I do have part of the East Indies and that part does have Oil...
Quote from: P3D on September 13, 2007, 01:39:25 PM
Quote
DOI - reduced production due to the destruction of its main field
When the hell was Sumatra attacked?
The Largest oilfields in the NOI is in north and central Sumatra, followed by Java itself, the Borneo fields are third, and most of those are around Balikpapan.
Historical oil production is limited to Borneo/Java/Sumatra. Other oil fields - like those on Swiss owned islands- are marginal and came to production later (read: after the 1950s).
I thought Tarakan was more important, apparently not.
One thing I would be concerned about is the added weight of the longer calibre main guns, will they still fit or will they cause the ship to heel when they're trained out? IIRC both the Spanish and Japanese historically found this out the hard way (although with original equipment guns!)...
Quote from: swamphen on September 14, 2007, 07:58:24 PM
One thing I would be concerned about is the added weight of the longer calibre main guns, will they still fit or will they cause the ship to heel when they're trained out? IIRC both the Spanish and Japanese historically found this out the hard way (although with original equipment guns!)...
The turrets have been modified... counterweights have been bolted to the rear of the turrets to account for the increase in weight. This is accounted for in the addition of an insane amount of Misc weight.