Iberia wants to talk to the Persian Empire, any Mod in particular want to act the part?
Ahoj!
Habla comigo, effendi!
The other guys are busy with the war, so it's time for me to earn my keep :)
Borys
First question is has an anyone attempted to found the Anglo-Persian Oil Company? Would be Iberian-Persian Oil Company I guess if I do...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iranian_Oil_Company
Basicly Iberia needs to look into a secure oil supply. Since the time is right I figure this is a good a place as any to start looking.
Using the forum search I didn't really notice anything at first glance.
Ahoj!
IIRC nobody set up anything there. You can have the Sociedade de Esploracion de Petroleos Perso-Iberico (DF will correct my Castillian). We'll arrange the price by PM :). Basically, the way I see it,l you'll have to invest something in the Persian economy.
Borys
Persia is a major oil supplier of Orange.
Ahoj!
Any problems for Persia supplying both?
If it is a problem - then I guess Russia, CSA or the Normans could be a source.
Mesoamerica - or too early for that?
Borys
Quote from: P³D on August 24, 2007, 03:51:27 PM
Persia is a major oil supplier of Orange.
Stuff like that really needs to be public in some way. Also when was it put on line as oil production didn't start there historicly till April 1909 and real exports 1913.
The next bet to look for developing a supply would be the Ottoman Empire the Rumania. SA America would be the 1930's I believe.
Which brings up an idea... do we want to add OIL as a resource to be tracked in the game?
Michael
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/RandalthorPK/maps-of-world-top-ten-oil-reserves-.gif)
Since Persia is out of the picture id advise you to pick from this list. its just the top 10.
Italy might be interested in Further developing the Lybian fields, or you could just go to war in Nygeria
The problem with that map is its current. In this time period the US produced more oil than the rest of the world combined. So that would be the CSA. The Lybian oil fields don't get found till the 1950's for example. Saudi, 1930's. Iraq is 1920's I think. Etc...
Michael
I know but since i plan on using oil burning ships im going to have to "develop" a petrolium industry, as will you if you choose to use oil burners. as for the mexican fields, it isnt to large a jump to say if they have oil in texas shouldnt there be oil across the boarder. As for the rest i supose ill have to figure out how to find the lybian reserve.
Historical irl is a guideline over here. Not a truth.
If you backtrack P³D postings, anybody can find out he invested a lot of time in making sure he got the inroad in Persia, even to the detriment to the DKB's colonial investment there.
I agree, I should get the N-verse history back up. Unfortunatly, there is a reason I was happy that Borys, Ithekro and P³D wanted to share the responsibility. I do not have as much time left to invest.
Daily life caught up. Rebuilding a house, building up a metal working shop , keep a wonderfull lady happy, and have another hobby that consumes a lot of time.
With the difference of the N-verse III to the old board, and 9 years of new history to be put in it, I was reluctant to do so.
Resources are like IRL, with exceptions on the newly created N-verse only area's. Those have a fair share of the resources.
Time of development is a combination of IRL , and can be advanced by good writing, as a kind of bonus.
The CSA player on the old board got the development of the oil in his tech tree, and even now the CSA, with Carthaganian as player, is the main exporter of oil, and the technology to use it is more advanced in the Republican states.
So, if any country wants a good source of oil, Persia, the CSA and strangely enough, the Habsburg Empire are the real sellers.
If the urge to develop own sources becomes to big, let it be known that expanding the forum with good stories or other contributions to the basic structure of the N-verse world can be rewarded with resource development. This resource can be natural, economical or humane.
You can't with the current tech I would suspect. The oil field in Libya aren't to far out of the way...
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/libya_econ_1974.jpg
The problem is that the location is open desert and required air survey and were deep wells. No hint of oil there at all till people started to look for it 1954 and it took them 5 years to find it.
Michael
Rocky can aswer these kind of issues with irl info I guess. The thing I can do is look it up on the net (with Wikipedia as easy, but flawed instrument).
Or if it comes to local knowledge, (Belgium and the Netherlands) I can use my personal experience and knowledge.
But deep well oil operations in 1908, doubtfull, even discovered and technologicaly possible.
The cost attached is the main issue.
The same thing as in irl. We all could use hydrogen, it's just to economicaly and ecologicaly expensive. (in 1909 making hydrogen wasn't difficult, just too expensive)
Quote from: maddox on August 24, 2007, 10:39:49 PM
Historical irl is a guideline over here. Not a truth.
If you backtrack P³D postings, anybody can find out he invested a lot of time in making sure he got the inroad in Persia, even to the detriment to the DKB's colonial investment there.
I agree, I should get the N-verse history back up. Unfortunatly, there is a reason I was happy that Borys, Ithekro and P³D wanted to share the responsibility. I do not have as much time left to invest.
Daily life caught up. Rebuilding a house, building up a metal working shop , keep a wonderfull lady happy, and have another hobby that consumes a lot of time.
With the difference of the N-verse III to the old board, and 9 years of new history to be put in it, I was reluctant to do so.
Resources are like IRL, with exceptions on the newly created N-verse only area's. Those have a fair share of the resources.
Time of development is a combination of IRL , and can be advanced by good writing, as a kind of bonus.
The CSA player on the old board got the development of the oil in his tech tree, and even now the CSA, with Carthaganian as player, is the main exporter of oil, and the technology to use it is more advanced in the Republican states.
So, if any country wants a good source of oil, Persia, the CSA and strangely enough, the Habsburg Empire are the real sellers.
If the urge to develop own sources becomes to big, let it be known that expanding the forum with good stories or other contributions to the basic structure of the N-verse world can be rewarded with resource development. This resource can be natural, economical or humane.
Why Austria?
As to Orange and Persia if it was done it was done. There just is nothing about it I could find on the forums N3 and I did look before I started this thread. At least the search function didn't turn up anything.
Real life or not... Real life is a good yard stick. I waited till now to look into the matter because till I started to consider building oil fired ships there was no need for Iberia to look into it.
Michael
IRL, Austria had some good oil fields running. Ask Borys for more info.
Like I said, i appolegise for not posting nor even updating the Encyclopedia Nautica. And will do so asap.
Again, I'm not alone anymore, and we like to be on 1 line, we 4 moderators.
Currently, I'm doing this on my own, and try to be as neutral as possible.
And I forgot, Indonesia has exploitable oil wells.
Ahoj!
I'm not that great an exporter - I supply DKB military needs, I suppose. I'm no. 3 world producer ATM, though. With some 8-10 bbl a year.
Like in OTL :)
Borys
Quote from: maddox on August 24, 2007, 10:56:54 PM
IRL, Austria had some good oil fields running. Ask Borys for more info.
Like I said, i appolegise for not posting nor even updating the Encyclopedia Nautica. And will do so asap.
Again, I'm not alone anymore, and we like to be on 1 line, we 4 moderators.
Currently, I'm doing this on my own, and try to be as neutral as possible.
And I forgot, Indonesia has exploitable oil wells.
Nothing to say sorry for... I put a request for info out and I got it. Its a problem for new players is all.
But yes some type of general history of the game would be usefull.
Michael
Ahoj!
Orange currently holds a protectorate over Oman.
Borys
I'm sorry not being able to supply a N-verse III history before mid september. I'm already on borrowed time at it is.
Next week I'll be in the UK, fighting the robots as a team member of team RCC.
RLF is what it is... Next week I have my fall class so I will loose out on time. This weekend I have extra time as I am stuck in bed. So I can hardly complain... too much about when it effects others.
Michael
Hm, lots of us seems to be off next week, I will be up north, visiting a friend in Kiruna.
Ahoj!
Yay, Kiruna!
That's where the iron ore mine is?
At the head of the Gulf of Bothnia, near the Artic Circle?
You lucky fellow! Putting your teeth into succulent reindeer - drools ...
Borys
I'm ditching sleep for a while it seems.
Just took the old N-verse history, editted a bit, and the general "known" history will be shortly online in it's seperate tread.
As people have talked about sources of oil for oil fired ships I am wondering do we want to formalize oil as a resource that needs to be tracked and accounted for? I think I asked this before in one of these two threads...
Nothing too complex I would assume but some type of system?
Michael
Quote from: miketr on August 24, 2007, 11:57:33 PM
As people have talked about sources of oil for oil fired ships I am wondering do we want to formalize oil as a resource that needs to be tracked and accounted for? I think I asked this before in one of these two threads...
Nothing too complex I would assume but some type of system?
Michael
Bit early for that, after all, only a small fraction of any fleet is oil-fired. And in this period, bunker fuel is almost a byproduct in the refineries; the primary petroleum product is kerosene.
Quote from: Borys on August 24, 2007, 11:48:28 PM
Ahoj!
Yay, Kiruna!
That's where the iron ore mine is?
At the head of the Gulf of Bothnia, near the Artic Circle?
You lucky fellow! Putting your teeth into succulent reindeer - drools ...
Borys
Well, it sounds like you are thinking about Luleå.
Kiruna is 260km north-west of the Gulf of Bothnia, 140km north of the Artic circel.
But Kiruna is the place of the great iron mine, in fact the entire "city" will have to be moved due to that mine. :)
Ahoj!
I mixed up the two, then. Lulea is the port then?
Borys
Quote from: Korpen on August 25, 2007, 12:01:16 AM
Quote from: miketr on August 24, 2007, 11:57:33 PM
As people have talked about sources of oil for oil fired ships I am wondering do we want to formalize oil as a resource that needs to be tracked and accounted for? I think I asked this before in one of these two threads...
Nothing too complex I would assume but some type of system?
Michael
Bit early for that, after all, only a small fraction of any fleet is oil-fired. And in this period, bunker fuel is almost a byproduct in the refineries; the primary petroleum product is kerosene.
I have mixed feelings on this.
On one hand the amounts needed are small, on the other hand, if the DKB started running 6 oil fired battleships, I think I'd question that.
Maybe let us assume that in peacetime oil is readily available in whatever quantity necessary. War is a different mattter - everybody has stocks for 6 months. After or above that - write about it, pay for it ...
Borys
Persia is not an exclusive Orange supplier, there's space for other nations here.
However, keep in mind, that pre-1920, known (and exploited) oilfields were less numerous. Galizia, Baku (and smaller Russian field?), Abadan(Persia), Bahrein, Pennsylvannia, Texas, California, NOI, Venezuela and basically that's it. Iraq, Kuwait came later (30s). And the largest producer was the USA.
ya looks like im gona have to make nice with the csa =P, I was planing on building a large number(aka all)of my new ships as oil burners ><. This was mostly due to the fact i had Lybia, and thought i would have a plentiful supply available. Either that or i have to redesign my whole order of battle><
Rohan's small oil-fired force is presently supplied by the Confederate States of America and possibly "California". Rohan might have its own internal sources and the annexation of California (in a few months time now) may give Rohan a fuctioning source of refined oil. Since most of my oil fired ships are rather new, their numbers are limited. Most are partially oil fired at this time, with maybe a few exceptions under construction from 1907 (new belted cruisers and destroyers are fully oil fired).
I'm not a petroleum geologist, Maddox, but I can make a few observations:
-In 1908, we're lacking any knowledge of modern plate tectonics, which would be important in predicting where oil may be.
-In 1908, we're at least a decade away from any functional geophysical techniques that would allow "remote sensing" of oil at depth.
-In 1908, drilling techniques are limited, and one will not be able to exploit oil that is deeper than a few hundred metres, or located underwater.
In the end, one only really finds oil here based on visual observation. In that case, you're most likely to get lucky if the area is either highly populated or has been settled for a long time. Failing that, one can still get lucky, of course.
In this sim, we could see earlier-than-historical production in places which are more heavily populated or industrialized than historical, or where the culture has been around longer. There may also be examples of good luck at mod discretion. However - if the oil's too deep, and beyond the era's limited means of finding and extracting it, then it should simply have to remain idle until later.
I would hope that players can avoid too much meta-gaming going on in the sim in this regard. We should not acquiring territory or diplomatic relations on the basis of oil that has not yet been discovered.
A navy's desire to use the more efficient all-oil-firing boilers should be tempered by the fact that there are far fewer suppliers than there are of coal, and that the ships transporting this oil will be vulnerable to commerce warfare. I can not imagine that any sane government would permit dependence on any single foreign fuel source - especially if the same government has access to perfectly useful coal closer at hand.
That's one reason after an initial spree of preliminary SpringSharps, I've backed off on AOF just a bit - keeping ~60% coal firing in a number of ships that I had been considering for AOF.
The DKB buys the majority of its oil from the Dutch - hence our interest in keeping the Swiss out of those islands ;) - but also as Borys noted we buy a considerable chunk of Austria's production, both as Germanic Solidarity and also as it started out as an Oil for Food exchange back during the Hard Winter. Most Habsburg oil for Brandenburg, I would assume, goes to Ost Afrika, while the Brandenburgian Fatherland receives its black gold from the NEI.
There are (per discussions at reboot) a few small oil sources in north-east Brandenburgia, however not enough to make it worth developing - yet.
Basically the Kreigsmarine is looking at fast ships (24+ knots) going with as much oil firing as possible, with slower ships keeping coal. There are risks with this strategy of course but the economical benifits to the ships of going with oil are considered to make the game worth the candle.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 25, 2007, 06:10:53 AM
A navy's desire to use the more efficient all-oil-firing boilers should be tempered by the fact that there are far fewer suppliers than there are of coal, and that the ships transporting this oil will be vulnerable to commerce warfare. I can not imagine that any sane government would permit dependence on any single foreign fuel source - especially if the same government has access to perfectly useful coal closer at hand.
"Safety and certainty in oil, lie in variety and variety alone."
-Winston Churchill
And that applies to all forms energy security.
Ahoj!
To add to what Rock wrote - if there is oil on the ground, seeping into stincking puddles, there is a chance of sooner than OTL explotaition.
An interesting piece of trivia I unearthed while researching Angolan oil - the first (wooden) barrels with oil from around Luanda were sent to Lisbon around 1750. Commercial exploitation, after some 20 years of drilling, came in 1960.
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 25, 2007, 09:30:27 AM
Ahoj!
To add to what Rock wrote - if there is oil on the ground, seeping into stincking puddles, there is a chance of sooner than OTL explotaition.
An interesting piece of trivia I unearthed while researching Angolan oil - the first (wooden) barrels with oil from around Luanda were sent to Lisbon around 1750. Commercial exploitation, after some 20 years of drilling, came in 1960.
Borys
Hm, I am pretty certain that it was asphalt, not oil.
Also, there are no commercial exploitation in those areas that i know of.
I just checked out of the library the following book. "Trek of the oil finders:A history of exploration for petroleum by Edgar Wesley Owen" We can forget places like Libya and Angola for different reasons but the biggest is they are both deep well fields. By deep I am talking 5,000 to 10,000 feet deep holes. Angola may have surface pools but commerical production isn't really possible at this time.
Perhaps an even bigger problem for out of the way places like Angola and Libya is that they are out of the way places. Lack of highly detailed maps, info on the geology, supporting infrastructure and better theory of petroleum geology in general. Libya for example water wells dug along the coast in the 20's and 30's showed gas and oil signs but if you look at the field locations its all in the deep desert. Italian geologist were looking around the place since they took over in 1912 but hard core exploration didn't start till the 1950's which was the part of the global search in non obvious places foor oil.
At anyrate I have some reading for today.
Michael
Ahoj!
The 1767 stuff was both oil and asphalt.
The first research licence was granted in 1910. The first find was in 1955, and the first field - Benfica - started producing in 1956.
http://www.angolapress-angop.ao/noticia.asp?ID=68406
ANTECEDENTES
Não se sabe, ao certo, quando é que surgiram as primeiras notícias sobre o conhecimento da existência de petróleo em Angola. Relatos dispersos dão conta de que há séculos que os povos de algumas regiões do litoral angolano utilizavam o betume e o petróleo viscoso, que ocorriam à superfície, como combustível.
Essas ocorrências de petróleo oxidado terão despertado o interesse e a curiosidade das então autoridades coloniais portuguesas sobre o fenómeno, a partir dos primórdios do século XVIII. Segundo esses mesmos relatos, o então governador geral de Angola, Sousa Coutinho, terá enviado, para Lisboa, em 1767, um lote de 49 barris de betume e petróleo recolhidos à superfície.
PRIMEIRA LICENÇA DE PESQUISA
Porém, a prospecção intermitente de petróleo em Angola tem início, em 1910, ano em que foi concedida a primeira licença de pesquisa, concentrando-se nas bacias do baixo Congo e Kwanza.
Com a concessão da primeira licença, começa a história da exploração do petróleo em Angola e a primeira descoberta do "ouro negro"; ocorreu em 1955, 45 anos após o início da actividade de pesquisa, e pertenceu Missão de Pesquisas de Petróleo da Petrofina, que descobriu, nesse ano, um pequeno jazigo denominado Benfica.
A produção do campo de Benfica teve início em 1956, enquanto a Petrangol, nome adopta a Petrofina, a partir de 1957 continuava a sua missão de prospecção do ouro negro em terra (onshore).
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ADDED LATER:
A pity there was no champion of neither Portugal nor Spain at Nacvalism 2 setup - hence the missing possessions of Guinea Bissua, Rio Muni, Goa, Timor Leste, Fernando Po, Cabinda ...
Borys
Well Goa got worked into the "Portugese-influenced" ACM. ;)
Back in N2 the DKB started a nation (inc. colony)-wide geological survey, however it was to start in Kuwait - which I 'traded in' in N3 setup when I believed that it was going to be sunk under a Caspian Sea sea connection. :(
There is, I seem to recall, oil in them thar Neue-Guinea hills, but that's almost certainly not going to happen anytime soon...