"A QUESTION"
(or two)
...
Let's say that I have Ship A fitted with Turret X, which is a triple of a medium gun. Turret Y, a twin of a heavy gun, fits the same diameter barbette as Turret X, and it will also fit the weight-and-balance restrictions of Ship A without modifications to the latter.
So, if I bring Ship A alongside and use the dockyard cranes to remove its Turret Xs and replace them with Turret Ys, without doing anything else to the ship including freshening its use-by date, do I pay the cost of the new turrets and their armour, or does it cost more?
Also, slightly related. Ship B mounts Turret J. Turret K, mounting smaller guns, has a smaller barbette diameter and lesser weight than Turret J. Can an adaptor be constructed to allow Turret K to fit Barbette J for less cost than builiding Turret L to fill in the larger barbette?
In the first case - a historical Gneisenau or Mogami type of conversion - I think you'd have to rebuild the barbette and magazine as well, to accommodate the different ammunition.
You'd have to do the same thing in your second example, I think, so the question of an adaptor would likely be moot.
Basically the repair rules confuse me a bit.
QuoteQUOTE
81 to 95 - Light Damage
Ships in this category have had contact with the enemy and received one or more telling hits in the exchange. Damage is generally superficial and can be repaired by general maintenance at the rate of one point per level of the naval base. These repairs cost nothing but if the player wishes to see this unit return immediately to service the order to "expedite" repairs can be given.
What kind of points, points of damage (0-100%), or BP, or something else?
And a naval base can repair X number of tons every half year, how does that combine with this?
QuoteRepair of this damage is done at the start of the next quarter.
If the damage needs to be repaired faster, this can be done at a 10-15% cost and an appropriate time in a militairy port or with a sheltered anchorage and a fleet tender.
Again, 10-15% of the ships cost in BP and money?
Yes, they are confusing.
Refit/repair/rebuilt rules are a mess right now, if anyone volunteers to make new ones. they are welcome.
From Wesworld, can be used as POD for new rules.
Level 1: Manual Refits (Cost = 5%)
-Changes (number/quantity/type/location) to searchlights: N
-Changes to ship's boats: N
-Alterations to guns of 65mm and smaller not served by hoists: N
-Cosmetic or temporary changes to superstructure (ie, a fake funnel): N
Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 15%)
-Changes to radar: P
-Alterations to guns of 65mm and smaller served by hoists: T
-Changes to depth charge racks and throwers: T
-Changes to torpedo carriages: T
-Changes to gun directors: T
-Minor changes to superstructure (enclosing a bridge, adding a searchlight platform): T
Level 3: Major Refits (cost = 25%)
-Changes to catapults and/or above-decks seaplane hangers: P
-Changes to deck mount or turret armor: P
-Changes to conning tower armor: P
-Changes to external armor belts: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to underwater torpedo tubes: D
-Changes to sonar: D
-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette alterations: P
-Refurbishment of internal fittings for life-extension purposes: P
Level 4: Partial Reconstruction (cost = 50%)
-Changes to bunkerage (type or quantity): P
-Replacement of superstructure: P
-Changes to internal belt armor: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to deck armor: P
-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm involving barbette alterations: P
-Replacement of secondary barbettes with powerplant machinery: D
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger not involving barbette alterations: P
-Change to powerplant (type and output): D
-Change to bow form: D
-Change to trim of ship: D
-Change to torpedo bulkheads: D
Level 5: Total Reconstruction (cost = 75%)
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger involving barbette alterations: D
-Replacement of main barbette with powerplant machinery: D
-Insertion or removal of section of hull amidships: D
-Reshaping of stern: D
Any new rules won't get into play until this war is concluded.
Proposal, modifing the WW rules to suit N-verse tech, and including something I have been musing on lately...
N: No special infrastructure needed
T: Can be done by a tender
P: Must be done in a port
D: Requires drydocking
Level 1: Basic Refit (Cost = 5%)
Cosmetic modifications:
-Changes (number/quantity/type/location) to searchlights: N
-Changes to ship's boats: N
-Cosmetic or temporary changes to superstructure (ie, a fake funnel): N
Armament modifications:
-Alterations to/replacement of guns of 65mm and smaller: N
Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 15%)
Cosmetic modifications:
-Minor changes to superstructure (enclosing a bridge, adding a searchlight platform): T
Armament modifications:
-Changes to depth charge racks and throwers: T
-Changes to external torpedo carriages: T
-Reboring of existing guns of 65mm and smaller: P **
Level 3: Major Refits (cost = 25%)
Equipment modifications:
-Installation/replacement of radar: P
Armament modifications:
-Reboring of existing guns larger than 66mm: P **
-Other alterations to/replacement of guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette replacement: P
-Changes to internal torpedo tubes: D
Structural modifications modifications:
-Changes to external armor belts: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to deck mount or turret armor: P
-Changes to conning tower armor: P
-Refurbishment of internal fittings for life-extension purposes: P
Level 4: Partial Reconstruction (cost = 50%)
Equipment modifications:
-Installation/replacement of fire control/directors: P
-Installation/replacement of ASDIC (sonar): D
Armament modifications:
-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm involving barbette replacement: P
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger not involving barbette replacement: P
Structural modifications:
-Changes to bunkerage (type or quantity): P
-Replacement of superstructure: P
-Changes to deck armor: P
-Changes to internal belt armor: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Powerplant modifications, updating/replacement of engine with same type: D
-Replacement of secondary barbettes with powerplant machinery: D
-Change to bow form: D
-Change to trim of ship: D
-Change to torpedo bulkheads: D
Level 5: Total Reconstruction (cost = 75%)
Armament modifications:
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger involving barbette alterations: D
Structural modifications:
-Powerplant modifications, replacement of VTE engine with turbines: D
-Replacement of main barbette with powerplant machinery: D
-Insertion or removal of section of hull amidships: D
-Reshaping of stern: D
**
Reboring naval rifles
1. The diameter and calibre after reboring may not exceed the tech level possessed by a nation. For example - nation X, with 1900 level gun technology, can rebore a 275mm/40 gun to a 280mm/39, but if it has purchased 305mm/45 guns from a nation with 1905 technology, those guns cannot be rebored by the purchasing nation until it has researched the proper tech level.
2. Guns removed from a ship for use in coast defenses, or stockpiling, cost 25% of their Spring* cost and BP to rebore if they are of 163mm or smaller, and 50% if they are of 164mm or larger.
Ship component cost was updated (after I got some data). 1000t armor cost $1, other specific equipment (guns, complete gun mounts and turrets, machinery) cost $2.
I'd change refits so they'd be cheaper but must be done every 10 years (more historical).
The question of repairs still remains. And as Carthagian said, 50% cost for simple engine change is just too high.
We can have the moderators specify how much repair would cost for each individual case.
By our rules, also act as ports for smaller ships, no such distinction should be needed.
Divide engine work into categories:
Minor Refits (15%):
Replacing Boilers OR Turbines/Reciprocating Engines with similar but upgraded types
Adding 'Oil Injection' to coal-fired boilers (10% oil bunkerage)
Major Refits (25%):
Replacing coal-fired boilers with oil-fired boilers (requires new engines of similar types)
Partial Reconstruction (50%):
Replacing VTE engines with turbine engines (requires new boilers)
This way, the degree of work involved actually is taken into consideration. Replacing boilers or engines with similar types isn't a lot of work beyond the labor involved with getting past the armor deck. You just open a hole about the size of the equipment to be replaced and make the change.
For larger events- such as altering the fuel source- small points of the ship's design must be altered. New pipes must be installed to carry fuel, new boilers must be installed (or old ones modified), coal bunkers must be refurbished to carry fuel oil, etc... it's a lot of work inside the ship as well as outside.
For swapping reciprocating engines for turbines, the changes become fundamental ones. The entire weight distribution of the ship is changed, and alterations must be made to take into account for this. Ballast must be added, some things might need to be taken away... the changes are drastic.
You might also want to have something for adding "oil spray" to coal fired boiler as an option; figure a minor refit.
Michael
Quote from: miketr on July 11, 2007, 12:28:54 AM
You might also want to have something for adding "oil spray" to coal fired boiler as an option; figure a minor refit.
Michael
True that... 10% off the bunkerage for oil makes a big difference.
Added.
I think P3D's got an idea about cheaper refits, more frequently.
With the list Swampy and Foxy have presented, I'd suggest that installation of "sensors" and stuff ought not to be very expensive: we're talking about a few tens of tonnes at most.
I have a notion about using the springsharp files to work out refit costs, so will ponder that and present something if I get that far.
As for repairs and the auto repair at military ports
A little idea would be to allow it (auto repair) to be applied to all damaged on very small crafts (destroyers), as even a single hit will put in the HD cathegory, and maybe even moderatedly damaged larger vessels, but in return having to pay the money for all repairs, even the "free" ones. This to make money more important and BP a bit less important ( but I guess I would be the looser on that trade however).
A development on this could be that that auto repairs scale, so the moderatly dammaged shipscounts as twice as much and heavy dammaged count as three times as much, rather then just allow the free "BPs" to be used on lightly dammaged ships.
Also, repairs should be able to be rusched in the same way as construction.
Any thoughts?
Further musings, incorporating some suggestions and a proposal for the reduced costs.
Cheaper/more frequent refits: I'd suggest the following schedule.
Age after commissioning / Cost of Minimum Life-Extension Refit
6 years, 2.5%
12 years, 5%
18 years, 15%
24 years, 15%
30 years, 25%
Every six years after that, 25%.
Reflecting the need for more and more work to keep an older ship ship-shape.
***
I'm not sure that a tender should automatically = port, as a Port will have equipment a tender doesn't...
N: No special infrastructure needed
T: Can be done by a tender
P: Must be done in a port
D: Requires drydocking
Level 1: Basic Refit (Cost = 2.5%)
Cosmetic modifications:
-Changes (number/quantity/type/location) to searchlights: N
-Changes to ship's boats: N
-Cosmetic or temporary changes to superstructure (ie, a fake funnel): N
Armament modifications:
-Alterations to/replacement of guns of 65mm and smaller: N
Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 5%)
Cosmetic modifications:
-Minor changes to superstructure (enclosing a bridge, adding a searchlight platform): T
Equipment modifications:
-Installation/replacement of radar: P
Armament modifications:
-Changes to depth charge racks and throwers: T
-Changes to external torpedo carriages: T
-Reboring of existing guns of 65mm and smaller: P
-Rechambering of existing guns of 195mm or smaller: P
Level 3: Major Refits (cost = 15%)
Equipment modifications:
-Installation/replacement of fire control/directors: P
Armament modifications:
-Reboring of existing guns larger than 66mm: P
-Rechambering of existing guns larger than 196mm: P
-Other alterations to/replacement of guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette replacement: P
-Changes to internal torpedo tubes: D
Structural modifications:
-Replacement of superstructure: P
-Changes to deck mount or turret armor: P
-Changes to conning tower armor: P
-Addition of deck armor: P
-Refurbishment of internal fittings for life-extension purposes: P
-Adding 'Oil Injection' to coal-fired boilers (10% oil bunkerage): P
-Replacing Boilers OR Engines with similar but upgraded types: D
-Change to trim of ship: D
Level 4: Partial Reconstruction (cost = 25%)
Equipment modifications:
-Installation/replacement of ASDIC (sonar): D
Armament modifications:
-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm involving barbette replacement: P
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger not involving barbette replacement: P
Structural modifications:
-Changes to external armor belts: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to extent or removal of deck armor: P
-Replacement of secondary barbettes with powerplant machinery: D
-Replacing coal-fired boilers with oil-fired boilers (requires new engines of similar types): P
Level 5: Major Reconstruction (cost = 50%)
Armament modifications:
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger involving barbette alterations: D
Structural modifications:
-Changes to internal belt armor: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Powerplant modifications, replacement of VTE engine with turbines: D
-Replacement of main barbette with powerplant machinery: D
-Change to bow form: D
-Change to torpedo bulkheads: D
Level 6: Total Reconstruction (cost = 75%)
-Insertion or removal of section of hull amidships: D
-Reshaping of stern: D
I like the new rebuild/reconstruction rules, but the 'general' refits that keep the ship combat capable... would they need them every 6 years? How often do naval vessels actually get those kinds of refits in RL?
Naval units IIRC were getting an overhaul every 10 years.
And I did some checking up and it seems the average legislated life-expetancy of a capital ship of the time was 20 years.
So perhaps a minimum-for-effectiveness of:
10 years, 15%
20 years, 25%
30 years, 50%
40 years, 25%
50 years, 50%
For repairs how about this:
Repairs in port can use port BPs, however money to the tune of $0.5 per 1BP must be payed, repairs above that require BP for the general fund.
For example, take a 15,000t BB with 50% damage in a Type 3 Port. The port can provide 6,000t, leaving 1,500t to be take from the general fund. So to repair this ship would require $3 (for port provided BP) plus 1,500t from the general fund.
Repairs can be conducted at twice the regular rate (2BP per month) at twice the cost ($1 per BP)
Quote from: swamphen on July 21, 2007, 04:33:59 PM
And I did some checking up and it seems the average legislated life-expetancy of a capital ship of the time was 20 years.
So perhaps a minimum-for-effectiveness of:
10 years, 15%
20 years, 25%
30 years, 50%
40 years, 25%
50 years, 50%
To simplify, why not just say that it's 1% per year, required every 10 years?
Quote from: Carthaginian on July 25, 2007, 01:41:20 PM
To simplify, why not just say that it's 1% per year, required every 10 years?
Well that is easy but it doesn't reflect that older ships need more work (and, to a lesser extent, vice versa). But a 'graduated' system has the fly in the ointment of somehow accounting for 'early' or 'more extensive than required' work. :-\
Sooooo...perhaps:
0.5% per year for ships under age 10 (refit at 10 years = 5%)
1.5% per year for ships 11-20 (refit at 20 years = 15%)
2.5% per year for ships 21-30 (refit at 30 years = 25%)
2.5% per year for ships 31-40 (refit at 40 years = 25%)
5% per year for ships 41-50 (refit at 50 years = 50%)
5% per year for all ships over age 50.
...which in the event of an 'early' or 'extra cost' refit allows a calculation for the cost of the next refit, with numbers in-between the refit levels rounded up?
***
And a few tweaks to the refit levels:
N: No special infrastructure needed
T: Can be done by a tender
P: Must be done in a port
D: Requires drydocking
Level 1: Basic Refit (Cost = 2.5%)Cosmetic modifications:-Changes (number/quantity/type/location) to searchlights: N
-Changes to ship's boats: N
-Cosmetic or temporary changes to superstructure (ie, a fake funnel): N
Armament modifications:-Alterations to/replacement of guns of 65mm and smaller: N
Level 2: Minor Refit (cost = 5%)Cosmetic modifications:-Minor changes to superstructure (enclosing a bridge, adding a searchlight platform): T
Equipment modifications:-Installation/replacement of radar: P
Armament modifications:-Changes to depth charge racks and throwers: T
-Changes to external torpedo carriages: T
-Reboring of existing guns of 65mm and smaller: P
-Rechambering of existing guns of 195mm or smaller: P
Level 3: Major Refit (cost = 15%)Equipment modifications:-Installation/replacement of fire control/directors: P
Armament modifications:-Reboring of existing guns larger than 66mm: P
-Rechambering of existing guns larger than 196mm: P
-Other alterations to/replacement of guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette replacement: P
-Changes to internal torpedo tubes: D
Structural modifications:-Replacement of superstructure: P
-Changes to deck mount or turret armor: P
-Changes to conning tower armor: P
-Addition of <25mm/1" deck armor: P
-Refurbishment of internal fittings for life-extension purposes: P
-Adding 'Oil Injection' to coal-fired boilers (10% oil bunkerage): P
-Replacing Boilers OR Engines with similar but upgraded types: D
-Change to trim of ship: D
-Addition of bulges without torpedo bulkhead armour: D
Level 4: Partial Reconstruction (Rebuild) (cost = 25%) Equipment modifications:-Installation/replacement of ASDIC (sonar): D
Armament modifications:-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm involving barbette replacement: P
-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger not involving barbette replacement: P
Structural modifications:-Replacing coal-fired boilers with oil-fired boilers (requires new engines of similar types): P
-Addition of >25mm/1" deck armor: P
-Changes to extent or removal of deck armor: P
-Changes to external armor belts: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Replacement of secondary barbettes with powerplant machinery: D
-Addition of bulges with torpedo bulkhead armour: D
Level 5: Major Reconstruction (cost = 50%) Armament modifications:-Alterations to guns 196mm and larger involving barbette alterations: D
Structural modifications:-Changes to internal belt armor: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Powerplant modifications, replacement of VTE engine with turbines: D
-Replacement of main barbette with powerplant machinery: D
-Change to bow form: D
-Other changes to torpedo bulkheads: D
Level 6: Total Reconstruction (cost = 75%)-Insertion or removal of section of hull amidships: D
-Reshaping of stern: D
Upon further thought and a bit of fiddling, this:
Quote from: swamphen on July 27, 2007, 10:15:36 AM
0.5% per year for ships under age 10 (refit at 10 years = 5%)
1.5% per year for ships 11-20 (refit at 20 years = 15%)
2.5% per year for ships 21-30 (refit at 30 years = 25%)
2.5% per year for ships 31-40 (refit at 40 years = 25%)
5% per year for ships 41-50 (refit at 50 years = 50%)
5% per year for all ships over age 50.
...which in the event of an 'early' or 'extra cost' refit allows a calculation for the cost of the next refit, with numbers in-between the refit levels rounded up?
...is probably too complicated. So perhaps instead:
Ships <10 years of age: 5% refit at 10 years after completion
Ships 11-30 years of age: 15% refits every 10 years
Ships >31 years of age: 25% refits every 10 years
...i.e. assuming no intermediate refits, a ship would receive a 5% refit at age 10, 15% at 20 and 30, and 25% every ten years thereafter. However a ship given a 25% refit at age 8, would next be due for a 15% refit at 18.
I like... great idea!
I vote for changing it as soon as war's end makes it possible.
Of course, I don't have a vote. ;) But if I did, that would be my answer.
Some simplification...
Refit would cost only money (No BP), 15%, every 10 years and takes a 6-12 months. This covers all modifications to keep a ship up-to-date. But in needs a drydock to check the hull and repair accumulated underwater damage.
And engines must be replaced every 30 years.
Installing new major stuff that does not require moving bulkheads could be done at no extra coast at refit/repair, but must be paid separately (new turrets, new engines, new armor etc).
For anything more complex: ?
Repair: The ship cost in %. If damage is severe, the needed BP will be specified by the moderators.
I could get behind that... ;)
I like it. For repair damages we could use the Port provided BPs?
Quote from: Desertfox on July 31, 2007, 07:45:03 PM
I like it. For repair damages we could use the Port provided BPs?
What port provided BP's? All I see for ports and BP's is ports now have a BP cost to build.
Michael
QuoteThe amount of automatically repaired tonnage seen over 6 months, for military ports
type 0 500 tons
type 1 2000 tons
type 2 4000 tons
type 3 6000 tons
Type 4 10000 tons
Type 5 16000 tons
OK... I didn't notice that before.... *Checks V0.1 and V0.4 version of rules, not there so I am not turning senile* Dumb question how do you use these repair tons in the current game?
Michael
For repairing damages you will be able to use your 6-monthly BP budget.
Quote from: P³D on July 31, 2007, 09:50:57 PM
For repairing damages you will be able to use your 6-monthly BP budget.
I am confused by that statement. When doing repair at a port I assumed you had your countries base BP production to use and thats it. The ports had the housed the drydocks and building slips but didn't do more than that. But there is the auto repair tonnage. Does it work just like BP's for repair? Is there any limit to there use? They seam over powered if they replace BP production directly even if only for repair.
Michael
Auto-repair tonnage is something that was not really thought over. They were supposed to be used to repair only lightly damaged ships, but this is an unnecessary complication introduced back in N-2.
Quote from: P³D on July 31, 2007, 10:21:18 PM
Auto-repair tonnage is something that was not really thought over. They were supposed to be used to repair only lightly damaged ships, but this is an unnecessary complication introduced back in N-2.
Then I suggest that they be removed for the sake of simplicity if for no other. Is anyone even using this repair in the current war?
Michael
Me no understand.
Mesa use BeePee to repair see-through in shippy or mesa no use BP to repairs holes in shippy?
Quote from: miketr on July 31, 2007, 10:41:21 PM
Quote from: P³D on July 31, 2007, 10:21:18 PM
Auto-repair tonnage is something that was not really thought over. They were supposed to be used to repair only lightly damaged ships, but this is an unnecessary complication introduced back in N-2.
Then I suggest that they be removed for the sake of simplicity if for no other. Is anyone even using this repair in the current war?
Michael
Yes, I have done so on several ships that suffred superfical dammage.
And i like the principle that you basically do not have to pay BP for exactly everything. So i think we should give port a bit of bonus BP for repairs, but not at the present rate, as that is quite over the top. But giving a port 1/BP (per year or per half year?) per level that can ONLY be used for repairs (and nothing else, such as refits) seems reasonable to me. And you would pay full money for it as well. This would make it a little less painful to repair ships, while not making it free.
So the following rate then of Autorepair?
type 0, 0.5 BP
type 1, 1 BP
type 2, 2 BP
type 3, 3 BP
Type 4, 4 BP
Type 5, 5 BP
That seams more reasonable.
Michael
Ahoj!
I'm not quite sure what I'm doing, but ...
type 0, 0.5 BP
type 1, 2 BP
type 2, 3 BP
type 3, 4 BP
Type 4, 6 BP
Type 5, 8 BP
The jump from 0 to 1 is to remind players that 0 Type bases REALLY are very small affairs, and the capacity of the type 4 and 5 bases reflects their size, economies of scale, expertise, etc.
Now, what did I just do?
Borys
Quote from: Borys on August 01, 2007, 08:21:28 AM
Ahoj!
I'm not quite sure what I'm doing, but ...
type 0, 0.5 BP
type 1, 2 BP
type 2, 3 BP
type 3, 4 BP
Type 4, 6 BP
Type 5, 8 BP
The jump from 0 to 1 is to remind players that 0 Type bases REALLY are very small affairs, and the capacity of the type 4 and 5 bases reflects their size, economies of scale, expertise, etc.
Now, what did I just do?
Borys
I think it is better to jump the other way, and give type 0 ports zero auto repair. The only problem i can see with that is how it affects small tenders, but that can be delt with seperatly.
Quote from: Borys on August 01, 2007, 08:21:28 AM
Now, what did I just do?
Borys
Borys changes
current -> change
type 0 500 tons = .5 BP -> 0.5 BP
type 1 2000 tons = 2 BP -> 2 BP
type 2 4000 tons = 4 BP -> 3 BP
type 3 6000 tons = 6 BP -> 4 BP
Type 4 10000 tons = 10 BP -> 6 BP
Type 5 16000 tons = 16 BP -> 8 BP
Its better but its uneven cost to results.
Costs to build and results compared
Type 0, cost $5, 0.5BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Type 1, cost $15, 2BP
--$7.5 / BP per BP of repair
Type 2, cost $30 3BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Type 3, cost $45 4BP
--$11.25 / BP per BP of repair
Type 4, cost $60 5BP
--$10 / 0.83 BP per BP of repair
Type 5, cost $80 6BP
--$10 / 0.75 BP per BP of repair
I would suggest that there be a simple linear climb to cost and capability.
Type 0, cost $5, 0.5BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Type 1, cost $20, 2BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Type 2, cost $30 3BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Type 3, cost $40 4BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Type 4, cost $60 6BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Type 5, cost $80 8BP
--$10 / BP per BP of repair
Michael