Needing a replacement for their aging, slow armored cruisers, the Confederate Navy has decided to go with a ship that trends in a different direction- speed rather than firepower. This was accomplished by dropping displacement somewhat, and going with a longer, leaner hull. Only about 60 feet shorter than their battleships, but much sleeker, this new cruiser mounts the 7.5"/L45 200-pounder as a compromise between firepower and weight-savings. They are deemed powerful enough to compete with any ship fast enough to catch this new cruiser, and are small enough to be mounted in quantity and have a reasonably high rate of fire (6-8 rounds per minute). Armor was not neglected either, with a 5" belt protecting the waterline over the magazines and engine spaces and a 1" splinter-proof belt covering the remainder of the waterline (which was judged sufficient to detonate any light shells from vessels fast enough to catch her). With a top speed of 27 knots- as fast an many destroyers- her speed is her primary defense against ships powerful enough to damage her severely.
A run of 4 units is planned beginning in either late 1910 or early 1911.
Hatchitigbee
Lochapoka
Bukatunna
Opelika
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Navalism/Hatchtigbee.png)
Hatchitigbee, Confederate States of America 2nd Class Cruiser laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,280 t standard; 6,937 t normal; 7,463 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
490.00 ft / 475.00 ft x 54.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
149.35 m / 144.78 m x 16.46 m x 6.10 m
Armament:
5 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns in single mounts, 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 1,204 lbs / 546 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 321.00 ft / 97.84 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 154.00 ft / 46.94 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 37,301 shp / 27,827 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,183 tons
Complement:
379 - 494
Cost:
£0.577 million / $2.306 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 154 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 1,566 tons, 22.6 %
- Belts: 1,163 tons, 16.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 55 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 309 tons, 4.5 %
- Conning Tower: 39 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 1,696 tons, 24.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,399 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 937 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 186 tons, 2.7 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,689 lbs / 3,487 Kg = 36.4 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.473
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.85 degrees
Stern overhang: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 16.55 ft / 5.04 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 112.4 %
Waterplane Area: 16,687 Square feet or 1,550 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 432 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.56
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Pretty. But - no wing guns?
Borys
Quote from: Borys on January 09, 2008, 10:37:00 PM
Pretty. But - no wing guns?
Well, it was decided that the marginal loss in fore/aft firepower was acceptable in order to
make them cheaper save on necessary weight of materials. ;)
I like her, a heavy light cruiser.
No fish?
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on January 10, 2008, 06:21:11 AM
I like her, a heavy light cruiser.
No fish?
WHOOPS!
Thanks, Rock... I missed the fact that I forgot them! Yes, she's supposed to have 2 triples at the indicated locations, will have to check to see if they are fixed or if I have room for trainable tubes. Not a lot of torpedoes, but then again, she's not supposed to use torpedoes a lot either. There'd be 6 reloads also, located under the AD and behind the belt... hard to get them on deck from there, but safer.
The attempt to fuse the 'light' and 'heavy' roles probaby won't be too successful, but the CSN doesnt see much of a way to get sufficient hulls in the water fast enough to make a difference otherwise. With over 80% of my cruiser force being limited to 20 knots, I need 'a powerful lot of ships' rather than 'a lot of powerful ships.' A
Hawkins-esque design seemed the best answer; even though she's too light to challenge the 12" armored cruisers coming out- and too heavy to be expendible like a protected cruiser- she will be able to serve as a generic scout/raider/patrol ship for at least a good 10 years without being left behind too badly by the march of progress...
I think.
BTW: It's funny that you should mention 'fish'- this was
Project Tarpon. ;)
Ah ha...
Well, if she's not successful in the role, you could probably swap up the main and secondaries for a large batch of 6", and you'd have a fairly ferocious CL.
Including torpedoes is a tough call in some cases; I think I've decided to leave them off anything larger than a CL - certainly from capital ships. In this case, I think I'd recommend for them; if nothing else, the threat of them could be useful in influencing the behaviour of an opposing scout force - especially one centred on a larger AC or BC.
Part of Guard Dog:
Defending it's long coastline form attack has long been one of the greatest expenditures of the Confederacy. Lately, many ships are growing in size to such a degree that they no longer are suited to the roles they are supposed to be designed to perform. Most affected by this inflation is the lowly torpedo ram.
Originally, the torpedo ram was intended to be a small vessel, meant only to deliver torpedoes against a capital ship in coastal waters. As time marched onward, however, the torpedo ram began to require greater speeds and longer range, resulting in larger ships. Then, as torpedo rams of other nearby nations became large and long-ranged enough to attack our fleets on the seas, our torpedo rams had to grow larger still in order to defend against those of the enemy. Their ships then grew larger in order to defend against ours, and a cycle of 'bluff and raise' with no real end in sight began, ballooning the average torpedo ram from only about 200 tons to well over 700 in a matter of only 20 years, with 1000 ton torpedo rams occasionally appearing in the navies of a few nations.
President Roosevelt, while still Secretary of the Navy, called upon his designers to create a new vessel- one true to the purpose of the torpedo ram. This ship would be used primarily as a torpedo launching platform, all other considerations would be secondary to this. It would carry armament only sufficient for self-defense, have the most minimum displacement possible, be able to utilize the smallest slips and dry docks, and would have the highest possible speed for it's size. After many rejected designs (including the one that became the Konfederator which was sold to the Habsburgs), the final product that emerged took 'less is more' to what can only be described as an extreme.
Weighing in at only 300 tons light, the TR-1911X (service designation is unknown as yet) is capable of only 27 knots, but has far better seakeeping and handling characteristics than most other ships her size, and is capable of steaming 1000 miles at 15 knots. She is (barely) suitable for open ocean patrols, and excels at patrolling coastal areas cheaply and efficiently. Also, she has a powerful punch for her size- FIVE 20" torpedo tubes: two trainable twin mounts on deck and a single fixed tube on the waterline at her bow. She mounts a single 25-pounder QF gun forward and two twin 1" machine gun mounts aft and also features two pair of .50 caliber machine guns on her bridge wings for dealing with troublesome small craft.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/300-tonner.png)
TR-1911X, Confederate States of America Torpedo Ram laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
300 t light; 310 t standard; 342 t normal; 368 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
70.10 m / 70.10 m x 6.10 m x 1.83 m
Armament:
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 27 lbs / 12 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes, 1 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 7,526 shp / 5,614 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 58 tons
Complement:
39 - 51
Cost:
£0.038 million / $0.151 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 0 tons, 0.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 177 tons, 51.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 105 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 42 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 4.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
84 lbs / 38 Kg = 3.9 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.434
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (45 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m (5.00 ft / 1.52 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
- Stern: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
- Average freeboard: 9.17 ft / 2.80 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 195.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 54.4 %
Waterplane Area: 2,753 Square feet or 256 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 89 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Weight:
10 tons - Marconi
5 tons - 5x20" torpedoes
EDIT: Gun Placement Fixed
At cruise speed she has a patrolling endurance of 2 days and 19 hours.
Is that enough?
If you look at that for a patrol area, it's a triangle with sides of 150 miles. With as starting point the "base".
For a coast guard or customs vessel maybe enough, but for a torpedo delivery craft, the platform is to limitied in range to warrant 5 tubes.
But that's me.
Quote from: maddox on January 10, 2008, 07:55:15 PM
At cruise speed she has a patrolling endurance of 2 days and 19 hours.
Is that enough?
If you look at that for a patrol area, it's a triangle with sides of 150 miles. With as starting point the "base".
For a coast guard or customs vessel maybe enough, but for a torpedo delivery craft, the platform is to limitied in range to warrant 5 tubes.
But that's me.
If you drop the cruise speed to 12 knots, the cruise range goes up to 1700 miles. By further dropping to 10 knots, the range increases to 2600 miles... which is pretty respectable for something this small.
15 knots was just meant to be a 'dash speed' cruise range, how fast the ship could travel from point A to Point B at a moderately high speed. It wasn't meant to be the actual patrol speed.
[picky]
Looks too 'bow heavy" for me, I'd guess such a crafts IRL would have a permanent pitch forward, unless it has a relatively full underwater hull fore for buoyancy - not really likely with the low BC. But that's just me.
I more or less like the freeboard values, except it being a mere 3' at the stem, a result of the forward rising deck. At any speed (i.e. when they would launch torpedoes against enemy ships) the aft might be awash with water making the TTs unusable.
IMHO - feel free to ignore.
I see no problem with the range whatsoever.
[/picky]
I can understand the bow-heavy comment; she looks for all the world like an upside-down meat cleaver. I figured that the weight of turbines, boilers, condensers, refrigeration units, etc, would balance the weight of a single torp tube, one QF gun and about 40 bunk beads (whaddya mean, 'I want my own bed'), 2 heads and some assorted personal effects. If not, I'm sorry.
Well, the freeboard on my TR-200 was 'too high' so I have been making an effort to get it lower on the next series; this may be fantasy, but I want it to be believable fantasy. I don't see how launching the torps would be too much trouble in anything but heavy (for the Gulf) weather, though, as a lot of Japanese destroyers had similar freeboard, right up to WWII. I know that a gale might present a problem, but normal seas (5-10 feet is average around P-cola/Mobile/Biloxi/NO) shouldn't be too bad.
I did some work on the range issue.
I can take 4 boats and basically 'run a relay' between two ports.
One in Port A refueling, one at 1/3 mark sailing to Port B, one boat at 2/3 mark sailing back to Port A, and one in Port B preparing to leave. I can do this with virtually any two port on my Gulf Coast. About 24 boats would cover everything nicely, and that's with approximately 500 mile routes.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 10, 2008, 10:11:25 PM
I can understand the bow-heavy comment; she looks for all the world like an upside-down meat cleaver. I figured that the weight of turbines, boilers, condensers, refrigeration units, etc, would balance the weight of a single torp tube, one QF gun and about 40 bunk beads (whaddya mean, 'I want my own bed'), 2 heads and some assorted personal effects. If not, I'm sorry.
I like the cleaver look.
I do not think weight as such might be a problem, but all hull breaks does constitute a weak point in a hull as it is a break in the grinders. Normally, this is not a major issue as the difference is no so extreme, but on this ship the difference is huge. I have great fear that it will be an awful lot of stress in the hull around the midbreak, especially in higher waves (2-3m+) as there will be large changes in displacement, and that stress is concentrated to a very small area.
Of course I might be wrong...
Well, current wave height in the area I want this ship to work in seldom exceeds 4m and generally resides in the 1-2m range. Also, at only 300t and 70m x 6m x 1.8m, she's not exactly approved for operations in heavy weather. ;) Yes, the break is rather large (one full deck), but it's no worse than on some other early destroyers. I wouldn't THINK that it would be too serious a problem.
Of course, I might be wrong, as well...
Actualy, it depends how the hull is constructed.
If the hull is constructed like a flush deck, with a low freeboard and the bow/foredeck is build on top of that, you have a strong hull, but a weaker forward structure.
Bracing that, or build in enough stiffners to get the hull with the break strong enough overall is going to eat in the weightbudget.
All in all, this little ship will do its job. Untill it runs into something it can't take. Like a nice fresh hurricane.
LOL... any time that one of these ships started catching appreciable gusts of wind, they would have orders to make for the nearest sheltered harbor. Their short patrol routes would keep them within a day's travel of some port or another, and would thus mean that the ships would be pretty safe.
Wil probably start the run of these sometime in 1911.
A re-working of the design to move the break forward.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Navalism/300-tonner2.png)
TR-1911X, Confederate States of America Torpedo Ram laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
300 t light; 310 t standard; 342 t normal; 368 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
70.10 m / 70.10 m x 6.10 m x 1.83 m
Armament:
1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 27 lbs / 12 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes, 1 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 7,526 shp / 5,614 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 58 tons
Complement:
39 - 51
Cost:
£0.038 million / $0.151 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 5 tons, 1.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 176 tons, 51.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 101 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 42 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 4.4 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
78 lbs / 36 Kg = 3.7 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.434
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (35 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 9.07 ft / 2.76 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 194.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 50.9 %
Waterplane Area: 2,753 Square feet or 256 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.56
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good.
Thanks. She does look more pleasing to the eye, and is as accurate as I can get a good coastal destroyer. I should have tried for another 3.5" gun, but I figure that I'll just wait till I get through with my 10-pounder 2.75"/50 gun before I change the guns on her. Three of those will make her an excellent little ship in all regards, I think.
The TR-200, though excellent for coastal duties, is insufficient for fleet duty requirements. Therefore, the call has gone out for an ocean-going escort that is capable of high-speed, possessed of good firepower and of a light weight. These new ships will abandon the designation 'torpedo ram' and will be given the designation of 'frigate' because they are not at all intended for the kind of coastal duties the torpedo ram designation entails.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/C-02.png)
F-01, Confederate States of America Frigate laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
600 t light; 629 t standard; 726 t normal; 804 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
300.00 ft / 295.00 ft x 26.00 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)
91.44 m / 89.92 m x 7.92 m x 2.13 m
Armament:
4 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1911 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 103 lbs / 47 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
3 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,727 shp / 9,494 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 175 tons
Complement:
69 - 90
Cost:
£0.080 million / $0.320 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 10 tons, 1.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 355 tons, 49.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 196 tons, 26.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 126 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 28 tons, 3.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
223 lbs / 101 Kg = 10.4 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.473
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 10.67 ft / 3.25 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.3 %
Waterplane Area: 4,990 Square feet or 464 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 57 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 108 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.02
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Guess that 27 and 28 knots is about to be too slow for destroyers.
Might have to speed things up a bit.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 17, 2008, 05:30:00 AM
Guess that 27 and 28 knots is about to be too slow for destroyers.
Might have to speed things up a bit.
Speed never hurts.
But in the end it is down to what they are to be used for.
Well, unfortunately, if there are cruisers out there that can make 29 knots, then a destroyer that can only go 28 knots are pretty useless.
Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?
...
Quote from: Valles on January 18, 2008, 02:58:07 AM
Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?
P3D's new cruisers are planned for those kinds of speeds.
Since they'd be hitting the water while these DD's were less than 3 years old, it'd be a moot point to build them. I'll just have to wait till I have sufficient engine tech to get faster.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 18, 2008, 05:00:51 AM
Quote from: Valles on January 18, 2008, 02:58:07 AM
Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?
P3D's new cruisers are planned for those kinds of speeds.
Since they'd be hitting the water while these DD's were less than 3 years old, it'd be a moot point to build them. I'll just have to wait till I have sufficient engine tech to get faster.
Everything depends on what you want them to do, if they are to support larger ships the speed of enemy cruisers are irrelevant.
Quote from: Korpen on January 18, 2008, 10:00:21 AM
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 18, 2008, 05:00:51 AM
Quote from: Valles on January 18, 2008, 02:58:07 AM
Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?
P3D's new cruisers are planned for those kinds of speeds.
Since they'd be hitting the water while these DD's were less than 3 years old, it'd be a moot point to build them. I'll just have to wait till I have sufficient engine tech to get faster.
Everything depends on what you want them to do, if they are to support larger ships the speed of enemy cruisers are irrelevant.
Incorrect.
The entire purpose of 'supporting larger ships' is to 1.) scouting/perimeter defense and 2.) torpedo attacks to harass the enemy battleline. A destroyer that is slower than expected opposition can do neither of those jobs effectively. At that point, the smaller ship ceases to be 'in support of' the larger ships and becomes 'supported by' the larger ships... more accurately, they become PROTECTED by those larger ships.
A smaller ship that cannot outrun it's projected hunter is a smaller ship that cannot survive long.
The job of the French DD's is to provide a torpedo screen for the big boys, and the big boys are ment to cover the DD's against larger attacks.
For me, Patrol is done with sloops, not DD's.
But that's the Nverse french view of things.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 18, 2008, 11:08:09 AM
Everything depends on what you want them to do, if they are to support larger ships the speed of enemy cruisers are irrelevant.
[/quote]
Incorrect.
The entire purpose of 'supporting larger ships' is to 1.) scouting/perimeter defense and 2.) torpedo attacks to harass the enemy battleline. A destroyer that is slower than expected opposition can do neither of those jobs effectively. At that point, the smaller ship ceases to be 'in support of' the larger ships and becomes 'supported by' the larger ships... more accurately, they become PROTECTED by those larger ships.
A smaller ship that cannot outrun it's projected hunter is a smaller ship that cannot survive long.
[/quote]
We got different modus operendi then. I see the small ships protecting and supporting the bigger ones against enemy small and medium one, and the big ones as supporting and protecting the small ones against enemy large and medium ships. In short, protecting each other.
I do not really see how a slight speed disadvantage would make either 1 nor 2 significantly harder, the destroyers is still capable to fires of some random torpedo spreads and for 1, well there should not be any need to run long distances.
If a destroyer cannot gain advantageous firing position, torpedo attacks are ineffective and thus impossible. Without superior speed, they cannot gain better position for those attacks.
Without superior speed, the destroyer cannot escape a cruiser it encounters when scouting, without superior seakeeping it cannot maintain even a lower speed, and without superior armament it cannot fight a larger ship. Thus, it becomes less a 'scout' and more an information-seeking kamikaze.
I'd already planned on this destroyer being expendable IF CAUGHT... but not so much slower than a cruiser it was sure to be caught.
Scouting and destroyer, do not belong as the same task. Typical little destroyers don't generally have the endurance or spotting abilities of a cruiser. Thus the cruiser will likely spot the destroyer first and then move to dispatch it before the destroyer is aware of the danger, and thus not be at full speed when the cruiser comes at it as flank. Destroyer screens may fuction, but not as a dedicated scouting element, at least not without a vessel to coordinate them effectively (such as a light cruiser). Once the starndard destroyers are around the size of the current light cruisers, then they can perform scouting missions like their World War II counterparts.
Basically these ships shouldn't be all that far away from the battleline if they are doing perimeter defense, as the perimeter shouldn't be all that far away from the battleships. The scouting element of this task does not suit a destroyer in this age. While todays fleets have them in just that task, todays destroyers are as large as heavy cruisers.
I then to agree w/ Ithekro. High speed is nice for dash attacks and to close quickly to launch torpedos, but destroyers really aren't stand alone scout vessels. Being able to outrun a cruiser isn't really necessary. If you're trying to torp a battleline, you're trying to torp the BBs, which aren't anywhere near 29kts, yet. If the cruisers are faster then you, they can run away, or try and get between you and the BBs, which will then lead to the cruisers being torpedoed. Now the cruisers are out of the way, so you can launch a second spread, or send in the heavy hitters.
A very Confederate Battle Cruiser... ;)
She's, semi-well-armed and armored better than most ships her size. Best of all, as light or lighter than most competing designs, and has remarkable survivability for her small size. She can be built on a budget if necessitated by 'unforeseen demands' to replace capital ship losses. The greatest weight-saving feature is the lack of an upper belt, instead replaced with armored areas covering only parts of the barbettes that extend above the main belt. This allows for weight to be included for many miscellaneous demands.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Haiti2a.png)
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
16,000 t light; 16,779 t standard; 18,028 t normal; 19,027 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 86.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 26.21 m x 8.08 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1911 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1911 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm guns in single mounts, 5.00lbs / 2.27kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,348 lbs / 3,333 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 9.00" / 229 mm 90.00 ft / 27.43 m 8.25 ft / 2.51 m
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 24.82 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.36 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,248 tons
Complement:
777 - 1,011
Cost:
£1.702 million / $6.807 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 995 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 5,871 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 2,894 tons, 16.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 433 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 1,227 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,170 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 148 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,182 tons, 12.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,601 tons, 36.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,028 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.9 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,546 lbs / 9,319 Kg = 23.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.503
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.96 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (70 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 16.27 ft / 4.96 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.3 %
Waterplane Area: 31,613 Square feet or 2,937 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 736 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 28, 2008, 11:41:39 AM
A very Confederate Battle Cruiser... ;)
She's, semi-well-armed and armored better than most ships her size. Best of all, as light or lighter than most competing designs, and has remarkable survivability for her small size. She can be built on a budget if necessitated by 'unforeseen demands' to replace capital ship losses. The greatest weight-saving feature is the lack of an upper belt, instead replaced with armored areas covering only parts of the barbettes that extend above the main belt. This allows for weight to be included for many miscellaneous demands.
Nice one, just a tiny fault, the C-turret should be one deck lower, or rated as raised.
Quote from: Korpen on January 28, 2008, 12:04:34 PM
Nice one, just a tiny fault, the C-turret should be one deck lower, or rated as raised.
C turret if ahead of the midbreak, and thus doesn't need to be raised. ;)
I double-checked that before I posted.
Quote from: Carthaginian on January 28, 2008, 12:11:55 PM
Quote from: Korpen on January 28, 2008, 12:04:34 PM
Nice one, just a tiny fault, the C-turret should be one deck lower, or rated as raised.
C turret if ahead of the midbreak, and thus doesn't need to be raised. ;)
I double-checked that before I posted.
So YOU say, but that is not what the report you posted say:
Quote8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1911 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
This means that two of the turrets are behind the midbreak, and that the positioning in the picture require the turret to be raised.
Claiming superfireing from the present report is just ugly attempt at cheating.
Quote from: Korpen on January 28, 2008, 12:53:00 PM
This means that two of the turrets are behind the midbreak, and that the positioning in the picture require the turret to be raised.
Claiming superfireing from the present report is just ugly attempt at cheating.
OK, forgive me for not knowing exactly what the system means, then.
Will be fixed momentarily... not a huge issue.
Even though I've been around a bit, I still don't know exactly what everything in SS means, particularly the nuances of the terms. I simply thought that the break in the hull represented a drop, and didn't realize that 'aft' guns had to be behind it if they were ahead of the engine rooms (ahead of the 'break' in the structure).
EDIT:Quick- Fixed, lost an inch of armor on the main belt and barbette guards, but all in all nothing that will make or break the design. I'll go back and re-figure the mid-break a bit to get the strength back, though, and the armor will reappear.
Also, learned something new about the program's terminology... a good lesson to learn.
Here's a version with the mid-break moved exactly 55'7" forward, allowing C turret to be dropped to aft deck level- and keeping the armor the same, as promised. I never really gave a damn about 'superfiring' aft turrets... I wanted the stability reserve that came with a higher general freeboard. In case you haven't noticed, I've possessed 'superfiring' tech for some time, and have yet to build a ship with it.
So, I moved the mid-break, lost 0.01 stability and kept the overall 'strangeness' of the ship's look to a level I like. In fact, I actually PREFER this version, and would actually be more likely to build her this way.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Haiti2b.png)
Gran Bahama, Confederate States of America 1st Class Cruiser, laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
16,000 t light; 16,779 t standard; 18,029 t normal; 19,029 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 86.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
169.77 m / 167.64 m x 26.21 m x 7.92 m
Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1911 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1911 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm guns in single mounts, 5.00lbs / 2.27kg shells, 1911 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,348 lbs / 3,333 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 10.0" / 254 mm 60.00 ft / 18.29 m 8.25 ft / 2.51 m
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 24.79 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.35 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,250 tons
Complement:
777 - 1,011
Cost:
£1.702 million / $6.807 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 995 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 6,039 tons, 33.5 %
- Belts: 3,094 tons, 17.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 433 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 1,184 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,180 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 148 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,182 tons, 12.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,308 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,029 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 475 tons, 2.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,972 lbs / 9,059 Kg = 23.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.96 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (60 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.9 %
Waterplane Area: 31,895 Square feet or 2,963 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 708 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
A question on the main armor belt. Does it reach up to the quarterdeck? In that case 4' armor below waterline is a bit shallow. Or there's a few feet of freeboard left without armor?
Quote from: P3D on January 29, 2008, 01:17:20 AM
A question on the main armor belt. Does it reach up to the quarterdeck? In that case 4' armor below waterline is a bit shallow. Or there's a few feet of freeboard left without armor?
Yes, it does reach up to the quarterdeck, and yes, it is too short, I guess... I'm used to dealing with far slower ships, and thus not needing deeper armor belts to deal with the wave interaction. How much deeper? 6' below the waterline?
I generaly go 8' above and 8' below, then again I have the monster uper belt to.
6' below at Normal displacement should be enough. It was in the range of 5-7' for WWI ships, looking at the different cross-sectional drawings.
*sorry about the drawing, I'm not sure how to draw a support ship*
Nearing completion in a rater forgotten dry dock in Galveston, Texas, the Ingals is designed to be a Type 0 port in and of herself, and carries the necessary equipment to carry out far more demanding duties if located at a large port facility. Not so glamorous as the warships being constructed by the Confederate Navy, the Ingals is no less necessary. Her most defining feature is the huge 250 ton crane located amidships- this monster can lift some torpedo boats from the water entirely. Surrounding the crane are huge oil tanks, carrying 6500 tns of fuel oil. Additionally, the Ingals mounts a pair of long-range Marconi and enough office space that a flotilla command can embark, making her a fully independent duty station in and of herself.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Navalism/Ingals.png)
Ingals, Confederate States of America Fleet Tender laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
8,700 t light; 9,067 t standard; 15,580 t normal; 20,790 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
550.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 70.00 ft (Bulges 90.00 ft) x 24.00 ft (normal load)
167.64 m / 164.59 m x 21.34 m (Bulges 27.43 m) x 7.32 m
Armament:
3 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 355 lbs / 161 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 20.20 kts
Range 55,000nm at 10.20 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 11,723 tons
Complement:
696 - 906
Cost:
£0.466 million / $1.863 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 40 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 914 tons, 5.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 9 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 905 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 909 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,961 tons, 25.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,880 tons, 44.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,875 tons, 18.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,434 lbs / 18,341 Kg = 887.4 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.66
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.95
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.468
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 26
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m before break)
- Stern: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 18.96 ft / 5.78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 42.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.1 %
Waterplane Area: 24,469 Square feet or 2,273 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 263 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 483 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
20t - 4 x motor launches (5t each)
25t - Marconi
25t - Marconi
1000t - Heavy Lift Crane (250t lift)
500t - Spare Parts (assorted)
805t - Structural Steel
500t - Extra Bearthing Space
Dunno about the crane weight. I'd say less than 1000t - do you know how much it weighed on Kearsarge?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/USS_Kearsarge_as_crane_ship_AB-1.jpg)
N0, I really, don't. I erred on the side of EXTREME caution, what with it looking like a revolving building and all... LOL. 500t with all the reenforcement might be more reasonable. I reserve the right to change it when I do find out, but at least this way, I know there's ENOUGH weight there to account for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Crane_Ship_No._1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Crane_Ship_No._1)
It doesn't list the individual weight, but says the whole ship is 10,000 tons.
I'd contemplated "Kearsarging" one of my older PDs or ACs as it was retired, but couldn't find any info on the weight of the crane itself. The 4:1 weight to capacity ratio's probably a safer bet.
A Wikipedia item on "crane (machine)"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_%28machine%29
...links stability with crane performance - so the Ingals ought to be pretty good there.
Nice design - I'm sure it will come in handy.
Thanks, Rock.
I've been working on her for about 3 weeks now, but the idea has been around a LOT longer. I was going to use Nevada and Mississippi for this task, but they served better being sold to the DKB. Ingals herself started out as a semi-joke... "can I build a ship that was capable of building a ship?" I decided that a 250 ton TB would be a reasonable goal, and I ran with it. She basically carries enough materials to build 4 of them, if you'll notice. ;)
Anyway, she's likely to deploy anywhere my fleets do to serve as a destroyer flotilla tender and major repair ship, being able to re-gun or re-armor a battleship if need be and materials available.
Just don't design a ship that can build a ship that can build a ship. Therein lies madness.
Oh, forgot - nice work on the pic. She is gloriously homely.
After long debate as to what course the next class of patrol vessels for the Gulf of Texas should take, the Confederate Navy split the difference between a well-armed destroyer and a small cruiser. Carrying six 20" torpedoes- new models with extended range- and mounting four 50-pounder QF guns, the F-01 class is affordable, fast, and one of the most powerful 'destroyer' type vessels in the world today. With a top speed of over 29 knots and a cruiser range of over 1200 n. mi @ 20 knots, they are also some of fastest and most long-ranged destroyers afloat. They are also the first class of vessel that the CSA will launch with advanced fire direction equipment built into the design.
5 will be laid down in 1/1911, with a further 5 planned for laydown each half for 2 years. The initial run is expected to enter service by Christmas 1911.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/F-01-45.png)
F-01, Confederate States of America Frigate laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
900 t light; 948 t standard; 1,106 t normal; 1,233 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
335.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 28.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
102.11 m / 100.58 m x 8.53 m x 3.05 m
Armament:
4 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 204 lbs / 93 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 225
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Conning tower: 0.50" / 13 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,000 shp / 13,428 Kw = 29.23 kts
Range 3,000nm at 14.10 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 284 tons
Complement:
95 - 124
Cost:
£0.130 million / $0.518 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 27 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 7 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 536 tons, 48.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 288 tons, 26.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 206 tons, 18.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 41 tons, 3.7 %
25t - Fire Control
10t - Short-ranged Marconi
6t - 6 torpedoes (no reloads)
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
249 lbs / 113 Kg = 4.6 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.419
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.79 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (35 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 10.99 ft / 3.35 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.6 %
Waterplane Area: 5,757 Square feet or 535 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 133 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.96
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
NOTE: Tall sailors find this ship rather unattractive, as the deck height of more than half the upper deck is only 7'... causing a lot of bruised heads in rough seas. Generally, shorter, stouter men are looked for to be posted on these ships, but the occasional tall man winds up aboard.
BC's a little on the low side at 0.419, but a nice ship nonetheless.
Quote from: Sachmle on February 02, 2008, 02:19:36 AM
BC's a little on the low side at 0.419, but a nice ship nonetheless.
Well, she's meant to be thin, thin, thin and fast, fast, fast!
Think a Cigarette boat on steroids, with enough firepower to make anyone who is ABLE catch it think twice about WANTING to do so. These aren't so much a destroyer design as they are a replacement for the myriads of old 2000 ton cruisers I have floating around.
Thin, yes. I little too thin, maybe. Rule of thumb is .043 is as low as one should go with a destroyer.
It is? Every can I've built has a BC of 0.40. I thought the CSA DD was thinner than I'd want (though legal), but I thought his BC was fine.
I view .40 as the limit on DDs to its what I shoot for
Quote from: Ithekro on February 02, 2008, 01:33:56 PM
Thin, yes. I little too thin, maybe. Rule of thumb is .043 is as low as one should go with a destroyer.
0.40 is the limit I was informed of.
Nothing below 0.40.
Nothing hard and fast about anything eles in the rules, so the design is legal.
Quote1 - Destroyers have a minimal overall and cross-sectional strength of 0.50 - this is to represent lightweight destroyer machinery, as realistic speeds cannot be met with keeping composite strength to 1.00. For ships of composite strength below 1.00, we as mods reserve the right to deal out damage or even loss in heavy weather.
2 Hoists
Light/protected cruisers should have hoists with the gun mounts if the appropriate technology was researched. Destroyers of WWI had no hoists for individual guns.
A cruiser without hoists have lower sustained RoF, and is more vulnerable due to the ammo exposed on the deck.
3 - Upgrades
During rebuild, the type of the machinery and the number of shafts cannot be changed. If it was reciprocating engine, you can exchange it for another one, but not diesel or steam turbine. Coal-firing boilers can be upgraded to oil-firing ones, though.
It is. howeverm possible during reconstruction, although there is a good chance that the resulting ship will have very bad vibrations and problems associated with the drastic structural changes.
4 - Submarines
Submarine designs should be based on historical ones, due to unavailability of any reasonable sub building simulators. Cost is the surface displacement in BP, and twice the BP price in $.
E.g. a Submarine with 300t surface displacement (e.g. U-1) cost 0.3BP and $6 to build, taking 6 months.
A larger cruiser submarine of 2000t displacement cost 2BP, $4 and takes 11 months to finish.
5 - Superfiring turrets on Battleships
Advanced BB Architecture allows 'superfiring' turrets like in early RN or German dreadnoughts. This superfiring is, however, only for the purpose of reducing the length of the armroed citadel. X turrets cannot have end-on-fire superfiring Y, as the sighting hoods of Y are not fully closed. They can fire to the sides, though.
All-centreline turrets still require the next BB tech.
6 - Mines
A ship must have 1 ton misc. weight for each carried mine;
7 - Torpedos
Torpedos must must have misc. weight assigned to them as per Torpedo Tech table, both for Torpedoes ready to launch and those for reloads. Capital ships generally carried around 20 (16-24) torpedoes. Adjust misc. weight accordingly and note the number of torpedoes on the SpringSharp report and how much of that is are the torpedoes.
8 - Number of Shafts
It is considered impractical to install more than four shafts per ship, so no more than four shafts per ship.
9 - Marconi
A radio with 250-400 (2000 at night) mile range weights needs 25 tons misc weight assigned to it. A 100 mile range set requeries 10 tons.
10 - Transom Stern;
Not allowed.
11 - Drydocks
Overal ship lenght is considered.
12 - Fire Control system
FC requeries Miscelenous Weight
Battleships (+15K) - 250 tonnes
Cruisers - 100 tonnes
Destroyers - (-2K) 25 tonnes
I must be thinking about something else than.
Finally convinced of the need for a battleship that is fir for more than simple coastal defense work, the CSA has finished plans for a more powerful battleship to be built between 1910 and 1913. It will be the CSA's first true Arcadia-type battleship. Carrying 4 twin 13.5" turrets and armed with new 1500-pound shells, the Oklahoma and her sisters are designed to be powerful and economical. Displacing only 1500 tons more than then Nuevo Leon class light, the Oklahoma has 1/3 more firepower. Three units are planned for laydown in 1910 and 1911.
C.S.S. Oklahoma
C.S.S. Arizona
C.S.S. New Mexico
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/Navalism/Oklahoma-1.png)
Oklahoma, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
18,500 t light; 19,534 t standard; 20,472 t normal; 21,222 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
152.40 m / 152.40 m x 27.43 m x 7.47 m
Armament:
8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
10 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
10 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm guns in single mounts, 5.70lbs / 2.59kg shells, 1910 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1910 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 10,992 lbs / 4,986 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 150.00 ft / 45.72 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 20.20 kts
Range 6,330nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,688 tons
Complement:
855 - 1,112
Cost:
£1.967 million / $7.868 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,374 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 8,259 tons, 40.3 %
- Belts: 4,150 tons, 20.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,987 tons, 9.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,913 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,182 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,345 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,972 tons, 9.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 340 tons, 1.7 %
- 250 tons: Fire Control
- 25 tons: Long-range Marconi
- 40 tons: Damage Control Equipment
- 15 tons: Flag Quarters & Offices
- 10 tons: 4-bed Hospital
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,363 lbs / 11,958 Kg = 21.4 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Stern: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Average freeboard: 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.9 %
Waterplane Area: 34,470 Square feet or 3,202 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 797 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Quote from: Carthaginian on February 04, 2008, 05:19:52 PM
Oklahoma, Confederate States of America Battleship laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
I think that the bulkhead need to be thicker, such a thin bulkhead is likely to fail most of the time the ship is hit. Just one more cm should be enough. As the ship is otherwise very well protected this weakness really stands out.
Quote from: Korpen on February 05, 2008, 04:43:13 AM
I think that the bulkhead need to be thicker, such a thin bulkhead is likely to fail most of the time the ship is hit. Just one more cm should be enough. As the ship is otherwise very well protected this weakness really stands out.
Ok, you convinced me.
TB is gone, will appear on the next ship.