Here is a place to begin spitballing designs for peer review. As the governing rules have not been realized at this time, feel free to use the traditional Navalism design guidelines. I have included a few general ideas of some relevant changes below. At such a time we have a ruleset posted, I will make a more formal sub-forum for ships and lock this thread.
--The Sim is currently expected to have turn one be 1910/H1.
--Engine year is now tied to laydown or appropriate refit year.
--Fire control now exists earlier and the necessary Misc weight allocation has changed.
--Slipways and Drydocks now exist in customizable lengths.
Tug Class A, Swedish Empire Tugboat laid down 1890
Displacement:
209 t light; 214 t standard; 262 t normal; 300 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(92.19 ft / 92.19 ft) x 22.15 ft x (13.12 / 14.22 ft)
(28.10 m / 28.10 m) x 6.75 m x (4.00 / 4.33 m)
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 540 ihp / 403 Kw = 13.00 kts
Range 1,000nm at 13.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 86 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
32 - 42
Cost:
£0.022 million / $0.088 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 105 tons, 40.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 69 tons, 26.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 53 tons, 20.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 13.4 %
- Hull above water: 15 tons
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
145 lbs / 66 Kg = 1.3 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 9.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.342 / 0.361
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 9.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 5.50 ft / 1.68 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 5.50 ft / 1.68 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
- Average freeboard: 6.07 ft / 1.85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 136.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 41.6 %
Waterplane Area: 1,214 Square feet or 113 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 149 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.79
- Longitudinal: 8.76
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
35t misc weight for various winches, bumpers, flotation devices, and other paraphernalia required by tugboats.
Given speed is 13kts, but the actual max and cruising speed is 10kts, with a range much lower as well. I figured that a tugboat needed to have an overpowered engine.
Quote from: Darman on February 16, 2017, 09:43:54 PM
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.342 / 0.361
35t misc weight for various winches, bumpers, flotation devices, and other paraphernalia required by tugboats.
Given speed is 13kts, but the actual max and cruising speed is 10kts, with a range much lower as well. I figured that a tugboat needed to have an overpowered engine.
Not sure why you're building tugs, but the BC is below the minimum allowed. You also have a 0.79 cross-sectional hull, which is rarely relevant, but for something meant to push/pull things around it might be. I would think a 4:1 length and 0.7 BC with less draft would give a very maneuverable, but beefy little tug.
I think on the engines what matters is how much HP it takes to move the Tug + Vessel at 3+kts (to overcome currents/eddies)
If you go with a 0.7BC and 10kt engines, you
I see you intend to use the truly-crappy-can't-do-s#!t-with-it sailing rules with its restrictive speed. According to that Rule, Sedov can only go 12.6 knots while in reality it can go 18 knots under sail which is quite close to its hull speed of 18.9 knots (using its 356'8" hull length).
Looking at my somewhat Sedov Clone, 2/3 of the hull speed would be 12.07 knots and require 516.72 tons. Using the rule I use for my sailing ship, I get 517.69 tons... so both rules are pretty much the same when it comes to weight, but where the rule you use hits its limits with the 12.07 knots, the rule I use allows me to push the speed further up to the 18 knots of the Sedov.
Quote from: Walter on February 18, 2017, 02:02:26 PM
I see you intend to use the truly-crappy-can't-do-s#!t-with-it sailing rules with its restrictive speed. According to that Rule, Sedov can only go 12.6 knots while in reality it can go 18 knots under sail which is quite close to its hull speed of 18.9 knots (using its 356'8" hull length).
Looking at my somewhat Sedov Clone, 2/3 of the hull speed would be 12.07 knots and require 516.72 tons. Using the rule I use for my sailing ship, I get 517.69 tons... so both rules are pretty much the same when it comes to weight, but where the rule you use hits its limits with the 12.07 knots, the rule I use allows me to push the speed further up to the 18 knots of the Sedov.
I dug up an old sailing frigate I had made. Heck I bet you posted your version of the rules when I put a version of it down for Italian builds.
I may well go look at that for this iteration, after all I don't think ANY sailing rules will be "official" :)
QuoteHeck I bet you posted your version of the rules when I put a version of it down for Italian builds.
If I had not posted the Zheng He about 5 months (which was simmed using the same rule I used for the Ye Ying) before I posted the Ye Ying, then I would say "Yes, I dug up the other sailing rule we used with a different N version than the sailing rule you dug up." :)
QuoteI may well go look at that for this iteration, after all I don't think ANY sailing rules will be "official" :)
Nothing official indeed, but to me that 2/3 limit is a bother to get to proper given sailing speeds even if it is only for a number of ships. Also you only have the option of either 1/2 or 2/3 of the hull speed with that rule so it is not really flexible.
I think I posted an Italian training vessel which was to be ship rigged, and I think in one of your responses you included a copy of what you're using. So I may go look at that and try an alternate version of the Parthian Armored Frigate.
Quote from: Walter on February 18, 2017, 02:43:12 PM
QuoteHeck I bet you posted your version of the rules when I put a version of it down for Italian builds.
If I had not posted the Zheng He about 5 months (which was simmed using the same rule I used for the Ye Ying) before I posted the Ye Ying, then I would say "Yes, I dug up the other sailing rule we used with a different N version than the sailing rule you dug up." :)
QuoteI may well go look at that for this iteration, after all I don't think ANY sailing rules will be "official" :)
Nothing official indeed, but to me that 2/3 limit is a bother to get to proper given sailing speeds even if it is only for a number of ships. Also you only have the option of either 1/2 or 2/3 of the hull speed with that rule so it is not really flexible.
Just going to drop this here...
QuoteEmperor Trajan VIII, Roman Imperial Republic Battleship laid down 1905
Displacement:
15,500 t light; 16,451 t standard; 17,434 t normal; 18,220 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(459.32 ft / 459.32 ft) x 82.02 ft x (24.61 / 25.55 ft)
(140.00 m / 140.00 m) x 25.00 m x (7.50 / 7.79 m)
Armament:
6 - 13.39" / 340 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1,157.43lbs / 525.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
16 - 5.51" / 140 mm 45.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,461 lbs / 3,838 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 298.56 ft / 91.00 m 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 160.73 ft / 48.99 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 4.72" / 120 mm 298.56 ft / 91.00 m 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines and steam turbines
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 16,000 ihp / 11,936 Kw = 18.17 kts
Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,769 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
758 - 986
Cost:
£1.419 million / $5.676 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,282 tons, 7.4 %
- Guns: 1,282 tons, 7.4 %
Armour: 6,811 tons, 39.1 %
- Belts: 3,665 tons, 21.0 %
- Armament: 1,602 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,401 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 143 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,676 tons, 9.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,516 tons, 31.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,934 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 215 tons, 1.2 %
- Hull below water: 25 tons
- Hull above water: 60 tons
- On freeboard deck: 130 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,254 lbs / 13,723 Kg = 25.2 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.93
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.658 / 0.662
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m, 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 19.22 ft / 5.86 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.8 %
Waterplane Area: 29,080 Square feet or 2,702 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 727 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.22
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
I would assume that with the way it is simmed, all main guns are on the same level and nothing is on the lowered quarterdeck, right?
That is the intent yes.
Notional Union Ship-of-the-Line Evolution
1891 Design: 2x2 24cm, 6x1 20cm; 10,500 t; 17 knots.
--Given the primary operating environment is the Baltic, which might be foggy, stormy, and/or dark, the Union is an early adopter of the mixed main battery. Ships are built to 1.01 hull strength so that they can tolerate ice a bit better.
1897 Design: 2x2 28cm, 4x2 20cm; 13,800 t; 18 knots.
--The follow-up upsizes the main guns and adjusts the intermediate battery to four turreted 20cm in a hexagon layout.
1902 Design: 2x2 28cm, 4x2 20 cm; 15,200 t; 19 knots.
--Incremental improvements, jumping to 45cal guns in all batteries and more speed.
1905 Design: 6x2 28cm; 18,800 t; 20 knots.
--Basically a historical Nassau-class. Compared to the preceding class, the main difference is the intermediate battery replaced with more 28cm twins, with a larger hull to accommodate it. Torpedo bulkheads and oil-spray makes an appearance as well.
1908 Design: 4x3 28cm; 20,200 t; 23 knots.
--The hexagonal arrangement is replaced with triples fore/aft and en-echelon upon a beamy hull. Speed is ramped up to allow some dictation of battle range if operating alone.
QuoteBasically a historical Nassau-class. Compared to the preceding class, the main difference is the intermediate battery replaced with more 28cm twins, with a larger hull to accommodate it. Torpedo bulkheads and oil-spray makes an appearance as well.
Something I missed when you initially posted this... Torpedo bulkheads require the 1905 tech which would be available in 1907 and not in 1905.
Oh right. I'll edit later today.
EDIT: And done.
One of the interesting things in this iteration- to me- is that each player is designing the first 20 years in essentially isolation.
I still haven't gone class by class through folks Encyclopedias yet, but I know I was not thrilled to find my newest ACR class wasn't 'better' than Jefgte's latest...barely competitive I'd say :)
Rocky's specs for the last two vessels call to mind the Austrian-Hungarian fleet to me :)
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 09, 2017, 07:51:41 AM
1902 Design: 2x2 28cm, 4x2 20 cm; 15,200 t; 19 knots.
......
Interesting.
Lets take that to 1907.
Query; would super-firing turrets and in increase to 18,000 tons with a concurrent increase in machinery give you a ship with a speed of about 25 knots?
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 08, 2020, 02:44:52 AM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 09, 2017, 07:51:41 AM
1902 Design: 2x2 28cm, 4x2 20 cm; 15,200 t; 19 knots.
......
Interesting.
Lets take that to 1907.
Query; would super-firing turrets and in increase to 18,000 tons with a concurrent increase in machinery give you a ship with a speed of about 25 knots?
Possibly, but it wasn't the design route I took.
I decided to emulate the German pillbox design with 6x2 - 300mm, then went to a 4x3 en-echelon layout after that.
That was a helpful reminder that I'd jumped from 280mm to 300mm for my first all-big-gun ships. I'd completely forgotten the 300mm gun in my naval artillery compilation.
Quote from: AnchorSteam on August 08, 2020, 02:44:52 AM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 09, 2017, 07:51:41 AM
1902 Design: 2x2 28cm, 4x2 20 cm; 15,200 t; 19 knots.
......
Interesting.
Lets take that to 1907.
Query; would super-firing turrets and in increase to 18,000 tons with a concurrent increase in machinery give you a ship with a speed of about 25 knots?
Snip's Design of NPCs would see Ethiopia with no 'capital ship' guns. For an NPC that's ok, for player I want you to have something with a bit more oomph.
So the 8/9/10" guns will be available, but those traditionally on battlewagons won't be at first.
For a ship with 10" guns, a Von-der-taan or South Carolina arrangement should allow 25knots at that displacement- or less.
The 90% coal/10% oil fired seems to be a knot or two below pure oil fired, but the Byzantines have some very nice armored cruisers in that range....annoyingly my Parthians seem to play catch up to Jeftge's designs, even though they were developed independently and 'blind'.
Jeez.... I post I spent half an hour on just went "poof".... WTF? This happens every other time, or every single time I try to add pics.
Okay, the short from -
I am worried that I am wasting too much of your time and mine with a couple or heavies when I should be concentrating on DDs and TBs.
To simplify -
What I was looking for in the flagship is something like this--
https://www.navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_bb_regina_elena.htm (https://www.navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_bb_regina_elena.htm)
But now it looks like it would be twin 10" up front at best, and I can have super-firing turrets so may as well drop a pair of 8" turrets and... damn, I am right back to this --
https://www.navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_cr_san_giorgio.htm (https://www.navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_cr_san_giorgio.htm)
So maybe I should just get three of those with a few mods and call it a day?
That is a good site, btw, clean & easy and is a little more solid than Wiki.
I like the Aztec and Chinese DDs but I am still looking. The 750 tonners will be easy, but 1,000 tonners with triple TTs will be harder. Can DDs have oen or two tubes firing straight ahead, like German TBs did at this time?
Hi Anchor,
Right now I have a spreadsheet in progress,
I've got suggested drydock set up, and suggested ships for the <=1897, the 1898-1903 categories
I'm working on the 1904-1907 list now and will finish it shortly. 230ish?
I have a masterlist of everyone's ships up to 1912 which I use to find ships that meet what you said you wanted, and then I pick out the suggested ones.
It's all part of helping folks get set up, rather than tossing you into the deep end of the pool and then throwing you a filing cabinet and saying 'learn all this stuff, then swim'.
The Parthians have a Regina Elena variant, albeit with 13.5" guns, and superimposed 7".
I can make one with 10" & 7" easily for you.
the ships in my personal encyclopedia are easiest to change.
The 1000 tonners we will likely have to ask folks to submit designs.
In which case I will award $3 to the design "Winner".
Yes, you can have 'cheek' firing torpedo tubes, the Parthian 1904 "spear' class DD does just that.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 02:47:41 PM
Hi Anchor,
Right now I have a spreadsheet in progress,
I've got suggested drydock set up, and suggested ships for the <=1897, the 1898-1903 categories
I'm working on the 1904-1907 list now and will finish it shortly. 230ish?
We must be in the same time zone.... PST?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 02:47:41 PMI have a masterlist of everyone's ships up to 1912 which I use to find ships that meet what you said you wanted, and then I pick out the suggested ones.
It's all part of helping folks get set up, rather than tossing you into the deep end of the pool and then throwing you a filing cabinet and saying 'learn all this stuff, then swim'.
And I am feeling guilty about putting you to all this work once again....
But one question for now- all those shades of grey are confounding, is my colony the absolute N.E. tip of Mozambique? I hope so anyway, it would be best for me since it's not too far. YES, give them a point so I don't have to pay Deployment costs.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 02:47:41 PMThe Parthians have a Regina Elena variant, albeit with 13.5" guns, and superimposed 7".
I can make one with 10" & 7" easily for you.
the ships in my personal encyclopedia are easiest to change.
I thought that I had been capped at 10", but if I can get 13.5" that gives me a chance to stand off a BB, so that would be worth it. Is it under 19k-tons and reasonably quick?
I was almost ready to settle for an extra Pisa-class CA until you mentioned that.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 02:47:41 PMThe 1000 tonners we will likely have to ask folks to submit designs.
In which case I will award $3 to the design "Winner".
Yes, you can have 'cheek' firing torpedo tubes, the Parthian 1904 "spear' class DD does just that.
Yes, just about anything that world well will be accepted as the 12 x 750 tonners, and I was able to locate a 1,000 tonner with triple tubes under Italy..... looks as if I have been heavily influenced by Roma!
If I could have these for Ethiopia it would simplify things greatly.
Quote from: Tanthalas on November 29, 2007, 12:16:50 PM
Italia-DD-1909, Italia Destroyer laid down 1909
Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,040 t standard; 1,210 t normal; 1,346 t full load
[DD 40 thru DD 58 are of this class of ship]
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
333.00 ft / 323.00 ft x 26.92 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
101.50 m / 98.45 m x 8.21 m x 2.74 m
Armament:
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 250 lbs / 113 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,957 shp / 17,126 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 4,400nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 305 tons
Complement:
102 - 133
Cost:
£0.149 million / $0.596 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 31 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 8 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 627 tons, 51.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 308 tons, 25.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 210 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
288 lbs / 131 Kg = 4.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.39
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.541
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.45 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (40 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %):
11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 14.12 ft / 4.30 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.1 %
Waterplane Area: 6,018 Square feet or 559 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 51 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 112 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.49
- Longitudinal: 1.99
- Overall: 0.50
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
12 in service ----- I would want 20 and call that all the 1,000-ton DDs to fill that slot. The older 750s .... yes, it would be fun to have a competition for those!
Spreadsheet is up. I sent you some PMs.
Yep, PST. There's a reason I recognize the AnchorSteam moniker as belonging to a beer who's co-owner lives in Bolinas, in Marin Co.
Don't worry about the workload. If I got truly jammed up, there are several folks who would help as well.
Experience says asking you to jump and learn a ton and do a whole bunch of work just to participate...it's not the best way to welcome folks.
50 Shades O'Gray...
The Ethiopians have 2 provinces above the word Mozambique Channel. One of them has a Port Symbol at the narrowest part.
You will have built 1 IC in the province with the Port Symbol. The other province will still need the Land + Deployment.
But you can expand inland from there.
Capital Ships
A large part of what I am doing is trying to be true to the original 'vision' as how the NPCs work, while also making sure the positions are playable and enjoyable.
Not being allowed any capital ships..ie guns over 200mms...that would fail the playable and enjoyable.
To some extent I modify the NPC-PC process each time, trying to 'learn' a bit.
In the spreadsheet, I have some Norse 12" monitors, which I will allow as they are specialty coastal and don't really effect the vision.
Likewise, I will allow up to 255mm/10", as that allows you to contest the various ACs and some BCs running around
The Ship I posted down in the design thread is one option,
But if you want to spend that tonnage buying 1 foreign predread with larger guns I think I'll allow it.
The Parthian ship is the Smurgh class https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7042.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7042.0.html) but you can look at other folks encyclopedias as well.
I expect you may choose to build ships similar to Rocky's (Wilno)'s Archer Class , the last of these : https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7150.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7150.0.html) though probably with 255mm.
The Italian destroyer is probably quite doable, we can ask Snip to resim it as 1911 with 90/10 coal/oil.
The 1908 DD tech will be researched in 1908, 1909, 1910 and so you can start building ships with it in 1911.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
Spreadsheet is up. I sent you some PMs.
Yep, PST. There's a reason I recognize the AnchorSteam moniker as belonging to a beer who's co-owner lives in Bolinas, in Marin Co.
;D
I was wondering when someone would get that one.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:51:45 PM50 Shades O'Gray...
The Ethiopians have 2 provinces above the word Mozambique Channel. One of them has a Port Symbol at the narrowest part.
You will have built 1 IC in the province with the Port Symbol. The other province will still need the Land + Deployment.
But you can expand inland from there.
I need to spend a point each time I expand from a colony?
Done!
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:51:45 PMIn the spreadsheet, I have some Norse 12" monitors, which I will allow as they are specialty coastal and don't really effect the vision.
Likewise, I will allow up to 255mm/10", as that allows you to contest the various ACs and some BCs running around
Does not sounds suitble for deployment at the Colony, but great for defending a base with. I was thinking more like a cruiser loaded with 155mm guns on an Army pattern, but that's the kind of goof that I'll have to wait for until/if I can ever make SS work for me.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:51:45 PMThe Ship I posted down in the design thread is one option,
But if you want to spend that tonnage buying 1 foreign predread with larger guns I think I'll allow it.
The Parthian ship is the Smurgh class https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7042.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7042.0.html) but you can look at other folks encyclopedias as well.
You may want to check that, its not a Pre-dread and I can't spend tonnage on that scale!
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:51:45 PMI expect you may choose to build ships similar to Rocky's (Wilno)'s Archer Class , the last of these : https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7150.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7150.0.html) though probably with 255mm.
That tops out at 20k, so that would have to be the flagship. Otherwise it would be like 2 x Pisa-class CAs.... would it be worth it?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 03:51:45 PMThe Italian destroyer is probably quite doable, we can ask Snip to resim it as 1911 with 90/10 coal/oil.
The 1908 DD tech will be researched in 1908, 1909, 1910 and so you can start building ships with it in 1911.
Ship already sent me one with 4 x 100mm guns and .... looks for torpedoes is still making me cross-eyed.
1) if you were looking for a bombardment ship with 155mm, I'm sure one can be found.
2) For any undeveloped province you need a land point..in order to maintain that land point, you need a deployment point assigned.
3) Displacement - we work off LIGHT displacement, not standard or full load. The latter two includes allot of food/water/fuel/ammo, we are concerned about the heavy metal parts.
4) I'm thinking you want to be looking at 25-28knot ships for your 1908-1912 builds. A
Pisa in that speed range would be decent, but N7 has a number of all-big-gun armored cruisers, so a
Blucher or 10"
Invincible would work better.
5) I'm guessing you looked at the
Tiamat at the bottom. No that's not a predread. That's a dread :)
The
Simurgh I was pointing to is in the middle and is the Parthian predread inspired by Regina Elena with the three secondary turrets on each broadside. - except she has 180mm B and X turrets over the 345mm main battery, for a 10x 180mm secondary.
She's not fast, but does have heavy belt armor and would still be effective.
If Ethiopia wants one, we can presume Parthia sold one.
Quote
Class Name : Simurgh
Parthian Battleship laid down 1904
# Built : 2 "Simurgh" and "Huma"
# Active : 2
# Lost : 0
Displacement:
17,000 t light; 18,034 t standard; 19,456 t normal; 20,594 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(493.77 ft / 487.20 ft) x 86.94 ft x (28.71 / 30.04 ft)
(150.50 m / 148.50 m) x 26.50 m x (8.75 / 9.16 m)
Armament:
4 - 13.58" / 345 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1,201.52lbs / 545.00kg shells, 105 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 10:14:10 PM
1) if you were looking for a bombardment ship with 155mm, I'm sure one can be found. Quote
No no no, let's stick with what we have so far, too many changes too keep up with already.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 10:14:10 PM2) For any undeveloped province you need a land point..in order to maintain that land point, you need a deployment point assigned.
Quote
So, its a very slow process, then. Is the acquisition of normal (white) worth it then? How long does it take to start paying off?
And that reminds me, I will have to organize fleets/squadrons and set home bases for all of them before I can start play, won't I?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 10:14:10 PM3) Displacement - we work off LIGHT displacement, not standard or full load. The latter two includes allot of food/water/fuel/ammo, we are concerned about the heavy metal parts. Quote
Oh, good!
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 10:14:10 PM4) I'm thinking you want to be looking at 25-28knot ships for your 1908-1912 builds. A Pisa in that speed range would be decent, but N7 has a number of all-big-gun armored cruisers, so a Blucher or 10" Invincible would work better. Quote
Just one? I'm thinking that a matching pair would be more useful than another one-off. That is why I was looking at 10k-ton CAs instead of a sister to the Flagship.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 08, 2020, 10:14:10 PM5) I'm guessing you looked at the Tiamat at the bottom. No that's not a predread. That's a dread :)
The Simurgh I was pointing to is in the middle and is the Parthian predread inspired by Regina Elena with the three secondary turrets on each broadside. - except she has 180mm B and X turrets over the 345mm main battery, for a 10x 180mm secondary.
She's not fast, but does have heavy belt armor and would still be effective.
If Ethiopia wants one, we can presume Parthia sold one.
Quote
I was shown types for both the flagship and the CAs that I gave an enthusiastic thumbs-up to and I want to go with that.... but since then I have seen so many options that I have totally lost track.
Maybe I should have screen-shotted all of it, but it went so fast today, or was that yesterday?
I have no idea WTF happened to that last post, I was not pulling a Vanishing Point on purpose there.
I was about the change the zoom on my phone.
These new Ethiopian techs are alarming.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 09, 2020, 07:28:40 AM
These new Ethiopian techs are alarming.
??
I'm guessing you're talking about the nested quotes there
Indeed. The Union hasn't even unlocked basic quoting.
Provinces to Pay Off :
Basically it takes $10-$20 or so (ave 15) to develop a province.
That province will on average then generate $1.5 / HY.
So it takes 10 HY / 5 game years to pay off the development cost.
Everything after that is profit.
Order of Battle : Yep, that will be desired in about 2 weeks.
AC : At this point every is open. The draft I provided has a pair of Norse 11000ton ACs for that reason - you asked for 2 CAs. Others have been volunteering builds on thread.
If you have a specific vision "10k, 25kt, 4x10" We have plenty of time and apparently volunteers for a RFP.
As I said, it's a helpful group.
We can stick to the flagship.
I'll let you decide which AC out there you're refering too :)
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 09, 2020, 11:42:55 AM
Provinces to Pay Off :
Basically it takes $10-$20 or so (ave 15) to develop a province.
That province will on average then generate $1.5 / HY.
So it takes 10 HY / 5 game years to pay off the development cost.
Everything after that is profit.
I saw a lot of zeros on my spreadsheet, does that mean i have a lot of
internal provinces that have not been developed yet?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 09, 2020, 11:42:55 AMOrder of Battle : Yep, that will be desired in about 2 weeks.
It is already done except for the Cruisers.
I see I picked the wrong CLs for conversion to Mine-layers so I will look around for older ones, anything will do that fits in with the Tonnage.
Speaking of that, I am wondering how much I have left for CLs.
As for
future construction, 18k per year makes me think in longer terms. I have a (somewhat) balanced fleet that makes attacking me a dicey proposition, but I need something Dread-like soon. If I commit to a pair of Tiamats, would I say that 5,000 tons per year goes to each of them? That would mean they take 3 years to build, and I could develope guns for them in that amount of time.... but would that work in this system?
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on August 09, 2020, 11:42:55 AMAC : At this point every is open. The draft I provided has a pair of Norse 11000ton ACs for that reason - you asked for 2 CAs. Others have been volunteering builds on thread.
If you have a specific vision "10k, 25kt, 4x10" We have plenty of time and apparently volunteers for a RFP.
As I said, it's a helpful group.
We can stick to the flagship.
I'll let you decide which AC out there you're refering too :)
Yes, to keep things smooth, let's stick to that one. As for AC//CAs that is my priority tonight, and I am still trying to find my way to the right threads.
Sometimes I think I am on the right track, and then I see the date of the post.
Damnit....
You have to have the guns developed when you start building the ship. It's feasible to do some refitting in the gunnery department, but that's not all that useful as a base plan.
If you want a dreadnought that's Ethiopian rather than built in someone else's yards, kick me the following and I'll work something out that should be suited to your coastline and commitments.
-Slip or Drydock length (how big is your biggest 1-3 docks or slips)
-Guns that you currently have 'on hand', preferably what you'd like for a main battery gun and a secondary battery gun. If you don't know, look for the best guns on your best pre-dreadnought or cruiser. Likely something in the 28-34cm range and the 10-15cm range.
-Whether you want coal, oil (if you have oil firing tech), or combination. For coal in 1914 I'm going to presume oil spraying even if you don't have oil firing tech yet.
I'll whip up a couple of BB options and you can pick from there.
This is now a week old.
It seems to have moved to the startup information station, so I lost track of it.
It had been in meeting room and I thought it just went dormant.
Are there any questions above which are still open and in need of answers ?
Its always been in here, this was originally a thread from 2017.
Oh that would explain where it came from.
It was very confusing have 3 threads and PMs going.
I tried to fix that by making an Ethiopian ship design thread,
but all 3 kept going and then folks started posting designs in the new thread.
Just trying to figure out if I answered everything.
Next time I'll have to figure out a better way.