www.navalism.org

Below is the current iteration of the map for the player nations.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/rimvvlecw4zcp4x/Mptst2.png)
At this time the roster reads as follows. From the time of this post, we will not be accepting new players until after the sim is already underway. I intend to supplement this with a World Map soon(tm).

QuoteRed: Snip
Yellow: Walter
Green: Darman
Light Green: Olekit
Orange: Kirk
Purple: Jef

What this thread is to be used for is stitching together the backstory of the Europe we see above. The very rough Point Of Divergence I drew up early drafts of the map under was a Western Roman Empire that never suffered the catastrophic collapse in the 400's and the other nations on the map (sans "Byzantium") congealed into being as counterbalances to a not fatally but heavily wounded Rome for their respective regions. With that on the table, I would like you to drum up some national backstories. Thets try and keep the OTL Historical events after the 400's referenced to a minimum. There are two big question we do need to figure out as a group.

--What happened to the Rise of Islam? Clearly, with these borders, Islam either rules vastly different swaths of land or was dealt much harder and lasting blows earlier. [Mod Note: I know this might become a very politicly charged topic, keep it civil.]
--What happened with the conquests of the Mongolians? I intended from the start to have a "Golden Hoard" state exist in "Russia" as a powerful deterrent against overland expansion to the east. Clearly, they got stopped from pushing to the Atlantic somehow.

I may add additional "big" questions later. I will at this time reserve the right to make lasting and cannon judgments on the final items posted here for the sake of time and civility.

Islam: I would think that "vastly different swaths of land" could apply and that they are well-established in those African grey bits. Kinda makes me wonder about Christianity as well. Did it split up into the various branches. Without any England, I'm not sure that the Church of England would be around.

Mongolians: Could be that they delivered a hard blow to the Russians resulting them being not on the map but it drained the Mongolian forces in such a manner that they were unable to continue their push further West. Could also be followed by some internal strife and fighting regarding succession that caused them to stop their westward advance.

I'll do a little digging tonight on the status of Europe during this early time period.

Quote
--What happened to the Rise of Islam? Clearly, with these borders, Islam either rules vastly different swaths of land or was dealt much harder and lasting blows earlier. [Mod Note: I know this might become a very politicly charged topic, keep it civil.]
--What happened with the conquests of the Mongolians? I intended from the start to have a "Golden Hoard" state exist in "Russia" as a powerful deterrent against overland expansion to the east. Clearly, they got stopped from pushing to the Atlantic somehow.

I've only done a little digging so far.
I am following the idea of the Empire being very very old, and still following some of the old religious ways. That would be possible if history repeated itself, therefore it needs to change.

Islam
Islam seems to have prospered and vigorously expanded at a time the Persian Empire had (as usual) been battling the Byzantium Empire from 202-228, but was also weakened from within by revolts and civil wars. The result was in 633 the Persian Army was exhausted when tested, and fell to the Muslims.  The Muslim conquest wasn't without some resistance, but largely localized after the weak Imperial Armies were defeated in several battles. The result was a very large and rich land fell to the Muslims and helped fuel their expansion into other areas.

My proposed history has the start going the same, but the efforts to gain allies that historically failed, here succeed. The result is a slow expulsion of the Muslims and critical weakening of them.
It also means that while Christianity - which spread peacefully and already was tolerated, remained welcome, Islam was not.
That would give a rational basis for a far weaker Islam for the Rashidun Caliphate. 

Now one wave could wash west along the North African coast and still conquer Iberia, but with out the resources of Islamic Persia fueling the expansion, the Eastern Romans should fare better.

Me, I was using the stress test of the invasion as a period of military and organizational reform, leading to a more unified and effective Empire.

Mongols
That brings me to the Mongols, where I don't want them tearing my entire civilization down.
so the bit I wrote about loosing battles on the plains, then regrouping and defeating them in the winter mountains... basically I'm retelling the Mongol experience in Hungary.
So a stronger and more unified Parthian Empire deflects the Mongols along the Caspian Sea.

Where they go from there is up to other folks. I guessing with a strong Eastern Roman Empire, they didn't sweep through modern Turkey and into the Middle East.
Which means a larger and more focused horde is available to flow around the Black Sea and into the Russian Steppe.
So I'm thinking they devastate Georgia and the Ukriane, and take the steppes.

Historically, they reduced the Russians to vassals - the Duchy of Muscovy. The Russians eventually threw that off and rapidly expanded. With more of the Mongol force in Russia, that may not occur, allowing Sweden to claim the Baltic Coast.

Heck, I'd be willing to write a history where the North Shore of the Caspian Sea fell to Parthia in the Great Northern War, when Sweden hammered the Golden Horde from the North, and the Parthians from the south, and with modern (1700s) weapons were able to defeat and shatter the Horde on the Steppe...  or something.

My borders
If you stroll through maps and time, you find that at one time or another the various Empires centered in modern Iran claimed pretty much all the territory mapped and more. At the height against the Byzantiums 628, after a 26 year war, they had pushed as far as Egypt, Lebanon, and the Sea of Mamara, attacked Constantinope, all while holding the East Bank of the Indus. That war exhausted both sides. Of course 5 years later, the Empire fell...
Only to the North does the border seems ahistorical, it doesn't appear they ever had the northern end of the Caspian.

I'm figuring the North Shore of the Caspian (1700s) and the Saudi to Omani (1800s) coast are fairly recent gains for Parthia. 
Baghdad->North in the Tigris/Euphrates basin belongs to the Enemy, so I think that was lost in the 1800s, and the Kingdoms of Armenia and Georgia long before that - perhaps just a matter of who reclaimed the area from the Mongols first.  There's 1700 years of history of that land going back and forth between Empires.
Out East, I think those borders are old, established in the 1500-1600s. The Southeastern edge is on the otherside of harsh desert and mountains, so hard for the Empire to reinforce, but at the same time, it's made of mountains with a couple passes, so hard for the Hindis of the Indus River valley to force.  The Afgahn holdings are simple slow creep along the silk road to China.

Not much of a historian so played a bit with some of the historical stuff within my borders and made up a few other things...


5th-11th century - Christianity spreads throughout Ireland, Scotland and later Norway.

<9th century - Various petty kingdoms spread out throughout Ireland, Scotland and Norway.

8th - Rise of the Vikings.

8th-9th century - Viking raids on the Britania Isles.

9th century - Kingdom of the Isles formed. Other parts of Scotland united into the Kingdom of Alba by Kenneth I, King of the Picts.

9th-10th century - Settlement of Iceland.

9th-11th century - Unification of Norway.

10th-11th century - Invasion of Ireland. Ireland dependency. Invasion of Scotland. Defeated Kingdom of Alba merges with the Kingdom of the Isles.

10th-15th century - Settlement of Greenland.

11th century - America discovered. Short-lived settlement built on Vinland. Denmark shortly rules Norway. Harald Hardrada retakes crown of Norway and then sucessfully campaigns against invading Anglo-Saxxons in the south of Scotland who want to establish a base to drive the Romans out of the southern part of the Britania Isles.

12th century - Novgorod secedes from Kievan Rus.

12th-13th century - Civil War Era.

13th century - Kievan Rus battered by Mongol invasion. Norway invades crumbling Novgorod Republic to prevent it from completely falling to the Mongol Horde. First Mongol-Norse war stops Mongolian Northern advance.

14th century - Kingdom of Ireland and Kingdom of the Isles merge with the Kingdom of Norway. Remnants of the Novgorod Republic merge with the Kingdom of Norway. The Northern Kingdom formed.

15th century - Greenland settlements vanished. Second Mongol-Norse War, Mongols failed to relaunch their northern advance.

17th century - Second Northern War. Following capture of Saint Petersburg by Swedish forces, Russian royal family flees North into the former Novgorod Republic lands (*). Jan Mayen discovered and starts being used as whaling base. Svalbard starts being used as whaling base.

18th century - King Sigurd III's Accord of the Five Kingdoms. Reformation of the Kingdoms of Ireland and Scotland and formation of the Kingdoms of Iceland and Novgorod (the latter with addition of Finnmark in the West). Sigurd III crowned as High King of Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Novgorod and Iceland. The Northern Kingdom becomes the Northern Kingdoms.

19th century - Olaf Sveinsson Land (OTL Franz Josef Land) discovered. Third Mongol-Norse War, Northern Kingdom regains former lands of the Novgorod Republic on the southern and eastern sides of the White Sea.

(*) Based off Darman's bit about it.

Few things I have been looking at since pretty much all my sims are posted (juggling things a bit, I had a bit left for one more design that I will be posting later): Americans who have their roots in Iceland/Ireland/Scotland/Norway (and there were a few well-known persons on that list, including numerous presidents) and a bit more detailed timeline using wiki. I bumped up the number of wars with the Mongols (originally 3, now 6) and messed around with the eastern border of the Northern Kingdom a bit to make a 1280-1910 map. The Swedish bit is probably a bit off. Darman will know better how its territory history runs. It's based on what he said about Sweden beating the Russians during the Second Northern War (1655–1660) so I assume that at that point, the Russian bits that are "currently" (=1910) are part of Sweden would have become Swedish (though it is possible that the Swedish held more Russian bits but lost it to the Mongols or vice versa).
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/pyp65yit75c7zek/MpHis.png)

Not much action going on and I kinda think that things should start moving forward...

50 modification points:
- 15 points spent on 3 BPs.
- 20 points spent on 200 BP extra naval ship and infrastructure points
- 2 points spent on 1906 Naval Propulsion tech.
- 1 point spent on 1906 Aircraft and Countermeasures tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Destroyer, Torpedo Boat, and Motor Torpedo Boat Architecture tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Rangefinding, Fire Control and Gunnery tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Night Fighting tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Torpedo tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Mine Warfare tech.
- 5 points spent on 50 Land (+34) and Deployment (+16) points.
- 2 points spent on 10 Fortification points.


Norse Kingdom at the start of 1910:
- 68 IC
- 27 BP
- 680 BP Ships/infrastructure
---- 616.7 BP spent on naval ships.
---- 63.3 BP spent on naval infrastructure.
- 114 Land points
- 40 Deployment points
- 50 Fortification ponts

So here's my version :

Parthian Prebuild

20- 4 BP
7- +70BP Ships & Infrastructure (550 BP total)
15- +90 land (170total), +60 deployment (84 total)
2 – 1908 Airplanes available 1910
4 – 1907 Firecontrol available 1907
2 - 1907 Big ship architecture available 1910 (guns 1912)
---
50pts


Parthian Empire at the Start of 1910
68 IC
28 BP
550 BP Ships / Infrastructure ( broken down below)
170 Land Points
84 Deployment points
40 Fortification points




Warship Cost : 523.32 BP
Warship Types
24 Capital Ship Architecture : 6,750ton Coast Def BBs – 23,000 ton Gilgamesh DNs
+4 Knight Class ACR and 2 Tiamat Class SDNs under construction
Note: This includes the deletion of 2 1904 PCs in favor of 2 of the newly posted 1904 Pisa-style ACRs.

70 Cruiser Architecture : 250t River Gunboats to 7,500t Torpedo boat carriers
104 Destroyer Architecture : 210t Destroyers to 750t Destroyers
368 (Destroyer) Torpedo boat/MTB Architecture : 60t Torpedo Boats and 40t MTB-As
6 Submarine Architecture : 250t and 500t submarines
8 Auxiliaries : 9,000 ton fleet replenishment.

Naval Ports and Drydocks
Port of Chabahar : 1x 50m, 1x 110m, 2x 180m,
Port of Abbas : 2x 50m, 1x 110m
Port of Bushehr : 1x 50m, 1x 110m, 2x 180m, 1x 240m
Port of Abadan : 1x 50m
Port of Mina Salman : 1x 50m, 1x 110m, 1x 180m
Port of Kahsab : 1x 50m,
Port of Muscat :1x 50m, 1x 110m, 2x 180m
Port of Salalah : 1x 50m, 1x 110m
Port of Nosharhr : 1 x 50m

50m : 10
110m : 6
180m : 7
240m : 1
Cost : (5+6.6+12.6+2.4) : 26.6

Total Naval Cost : 523.32+26.6 = 549.92
Spare : 0.08

Quote from: Walter on April 12, 2017, 04:37:20 PM
Few things I have been looking at since pretty much all my sims are posted (juggling things a bit, I had a bit left for one more design that I will be posting later): Americans who have their roots in Iceland/Ireland/Scotland/Norway (and there were a few well-known persons on that list, including numerous presidents) and a bit more detailed timeline using wiki. I bumped up the number of wars with the Mongols (originally 3, now 6) and messed around with the eastern border of the Northern Kingdom a bit to make a 1280-1910 map. The Swedish bit is probably a bit off. Darman will know better how its territory history runs. It's based on what he said about Sweden beating the Russians during the Second Northern War (1655–1660) so I assume that at that point, the Russian bits that are "currently" (=1910) are part of Sweden would have become Swedish (though it is possible that the Swedish held more Russian bits but lost it to the Mongols or vice versa).

BTW, nice maps.
I'll try to scribe the Parthian edge of the Mongol Wars to fit around your date ranges, as it would make sense to gang up on them :)
I may even try maps of my own, but I'm busy the next 2 weekends.

Quote2 – 1908 Airplanes available 1910
4 – 1907 Firecontrol available 1907
2 - 1907 Big ship architecture available 1910 (guns 1912)

Two things with this.

First, from what I understand that is said in the nationbuildingSetup.pdf file, it is only 1 point for 1906-9 techs when available in 1910 and not 1 point per year advanced from 1905.

Second, it looks like you used the tech years from your list that indicates which year they are available the earliest. Aircraft tech is 1906 and the next level is 1910, firecontrol is 1905 and the next one is 1908 and the capital ship architecture is 1905 and the next one is 1910. So the 1905 FC and 1905 capital ships are things you already have.

QuoteBTW, nice maps.
I'll try to scribe the Parthian edge of the Mongol Wars to fit around your date ranges, as it would make sense to gang up on them

Thanks. The one thing you may have noticed that the Mongols never managed to conquer the Solovetsky Islands in the White Sea. :)

I am messing around with some 'historical' events timeline so in the end I might fine-tune it a bit more and maybe a bit more action against the Mongols will appear in the slightly more distant past (prior to the current Sixth Mongol-Norse War).

I would think that the Parthian Empire would have similar struggles against the Mongols, sometimes gaining and sometimes losing ground.

Quote from: Walter on June 10, 2017, 07:23:22 PM

First, from what I understand that is said in the nationbuildingSetup.pdf file, it is only 1 point for 1906-9 techs when available in 1910 and not 1 point per year advanced from 1905.

Second, it looks like you used the tech years from your list that indicates which year they are available the earliest. Aircraft tech is 1906 and the next level is 1910, firecontrol is 1905 and the next one is 1908 and the capital ship architecture is 1905 and the next one is 1910. So the 1905 FC and 1905 capital ships are things you already have.

QuoteBTW, nice maps.
I'll try to scribe the Parthian edge of the Mongol Wars to fit around your date ranges, as it would make sense to gang up on them

Thanks. The one thing you may have noticed that the Mongols never managed to conquer the Solovetsky Islands in the White Sea. :)

I'll have to take another look, but I'm guessing you are correct and I mucked up again.
Thanks Walter.

Walter correctly pointed out I was looking at Tech available dates in the prior post, not research available dates.
Therefore I have modified my prior arrangement.

The docks are in the same places, and I think all the ships are posted, or very close relatives thereof.
I did try to pay for the upgrades to various vessels for radio, QF guns, and Fire control, and I think I got them all.

With the additional 30,000 tons, Hulls/year >100t are 8, 8.33, 9 and 9.

I'm still working on a unifying history, making good progress.

Final Final Parthian Prebuild
Modification Points
20- 4 BP
10- +100BP Ships & Infrastructure (580 BP total)
15- +90 land (170total), +60 deployment (84 total)
2 pts : Electric Drives, Oil Fired Boilers available 1906
1 pt : Up to Historical 1910 aircraft and countermeasures, available 1910
1 pt : Night Fighting Basic tactics, Specialised nighttime acquisition Searchlight mounts, night scopes available 1910
1 pt : Centralized FC, early directors – 10km, available 1910
---
50pts

Ships : 553.364 BP
32 ships with "Capital" Architecture (6+2 DN, 6 BB, 2 CDBB, 10+4 ACR)
76 ships with "Cruiser" Architecture (24 cruisers, 8 Torpedo boat carriers, 4 ML, 12 MSW, 16 GB)
56 ships >100t with "Destroyer" architecture (24x 210t, 16x 500t, 16x 750t)
328 <100t Torpedo boats or MTBs
7 submarines
8 Fleet Support Ships

Naval Infrastructure Cost : (5+6.6+12.6+2.4) : 26.6
Drydocks :
50m : 10
110m : 6
180m : 7
240m : 1

Total : 553.364 + 26.6 = 579.964, remainder 0.046

Quote from: Walter on June 03, 2017, 08:14:04 PM
Not much action going on and I kinda think that things should start moving forward...

50 modification points:
- 15 points spent on 3 BPs.
- 20 points spent on 200 BP extra naval ship and infrastructure points
- 2 points spent on 1906 Naval Propulsion tech.
- 1 point spent on 1906 Aircraft and Countermeasures tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Destroyer, Torpedo Boat, and Motor Torpedo Boat Architecture tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Rangefinding, Fire Control and Gunnery tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Night Fighting tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Torpedo tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Mine Warfare tech.
- 5 points spent on 50 Land (+34) and Deployment (+16) points.
- 2 points spent on 10 Fortification points.


Norse Kingdom at the start of 1910:
- 68 IC
- 27 BP
- 680 BP Ships/infrastructure
---- 616.7 BP spent on naval ships.
---- 63.3 BP spent on naval infrastructure.
- 114 Land points
- 40 Deployment points
- 50 Fortification ponts

From looking at my numbers, this should still be the same. Only minor change is how the 616.7 BPs for ships are spread among the ships due to the slight increase in tonnages of the various classes, the inclusion of refit cost for various ships, the addition of a third Selkirk class AC, the addition of the Calgacas BB and the removal of the "auxiliaries and civilian ships that occasionally support the navy".

Also I made a mistake with the previous spreadsheet I posted in the Norse ship thread where I forgot to multiply the support capacity of the various supply ship classes with the number of ships in those classes. Which is why in there a support capacity of about 250,000 tons is given and in the spreadsheet below, that value is 817,350 tons.

Here is how the Imperial Roman Republic startup is looking right now.

Quote
50 modification points
--12 Points invested into 4 ICs
--20 Points invested into 4 BPs
--3 Points invested into 30 additional startup BPs
--2 Points invested into 20 Land Points
--2 Points invested into 10 Fortification points
--11 Points invested into the following Technologies
----2 Points invested 1906 Naval Propulsion [Avalible 1906]
----6 Points invested 1908 Destroyers [Avalible 1908]
----1 Point invested 1908 Fire Control
----1 Point invested 1908 Torpedos
----1 point invested 1906 Aircraft

Which puts my baseline as such

Quote
--72 IC
--28 BP
--510 Startup BP

With the startup BP allocated as such, detailed in the spreadsheet.

Quote
89.25 BP used on Slipways and Drydocks
420.75 BP used on Ships
--224.31 BP for Capital Ships
--113.88 BP for Cruisers
--37.71 BP for Destroyers
--45.77 BP for Auxiliaries

It's funny, looking at Walter's and Snip's setup, I'm wondering if I should be putting tons more in infrastructure.
But I have 23 docks, which can build my fleet (well, with some 1894 handwaving). About the only *need* is a floating dock, but that won't make sense until I have overseas possessions, but right now everything is within ~800nm of the Strait of Hormuz.

Alternately, I could shrink my startup fleet and have more docks/IC...and fewer obsolescent ships.

But in the meantime I'm a tad busy. Just check in from time to time.

Well, I do have to do the two coast thing. If it's in the Med, I need to replicate it along Biscay or the Channel

Quote from: snip on July 08, 2017, 07:57:07 PM
Well, I do have to do the two coast thing. If it's in the Med, I need to replicate it along Biscay or the Channel

Yeah and Walter's really spread out, while I have a very compact coastline in comparison.  I can build full divisions and still do repairs/refits, so guess I'm not under-docking.
It's just interesting, since we all kinda developed things in isolation, to compare.

Iberian startup:

50 modification points
--6 Points invested into 2 ICs
--10 Points invested into 2 BPs
--6 Points invested into 60 additional startup BPs
--4 Points invested into 40 Land Points
--2 Points invested into 20 Deployment Points
--11 Points invested into the following Technologies
----2 Points invested 1906 Naval Propulsion [Avalible 1906]
----6 Points invested 1908 Destroyers [Avalible 1908]
----1 Point invested 1908 Fire Control
----1 Point invested 1908 Torpedos
----2 point invested 1906 Aircraft [Avalible 1906]

Final baseline:

--70 IC
--26 BP
--540 Startup BP


91.8 BP used on Slipways and Drydocks
450.44 BP used on Ships
--177.66 BP for Capital Ships
--164.24 BP for Cruisers
--23.82 BP for Destroyers
--34.58 BP for Light Combatants
--41.01 BP for Auxiliaries

Byzantine startup in progress

∑ tab	50 modification points
9	9 points invested into 3 IC
15	15 points invested into 3 BP
8	8 points invested into 80BP extra Warships & Infrastructures
5	5 points invested into 50 Land Points
3	3 points invested into 30 Deployement Points
2	2 points invested into 10 fortification Points
	Technos
2	2 points for 1906 Naval Propulsion
1	1 point for 1906 Aircraft & Countermesures
1	1 point for 1908 Destroyer & Torpedo Boat
1	1 point for 1908 Improved Warhead Torpedo
1	1 point for 1908 Rangefinding & Fire Control
1	1 point for 1908 Night Fighting
1	1 point for 1908 Mine Tech
50	<=  Total
		Actualy
SS	36	Warships 504 BP
RGB	24	Shipyards 50 BP
TGB	48	Total 554 BP for 560 BP dispo
T	144
D	80
SC	30
AC	12
CBB	8
BB	10

... To be finalized

So, I've managed to go back and tinker with my start up sheet, trim off some ships, that feed up BP for a few more docks, esp a floating dock I can to to Sumatra or Madagascar or whereever one of my cruisers breaks down.  The 3840t Scout Cruiser design I posted a bit ago I've fit in. There will be multiple versions off that hull, with updated engines/gun, much like the Protected Cruisers.
Anyhow, I'll get to posting up in my encyclopedia during the week.

ALTERNATIVE  Final Parthian Prebuild
...really, it's final...really...sure..well maybe...

Edit : 8/13/17 I have discovered why in cleaning up my build sheet I suddenly had more BP to build more Destroyers and stuff.....argh.

Modification Points
6 - +2 IC
20- +4 BP
7- +70BP Ships & Infrastructure (550 BP total)
12- +70 land (150 total), +50 deployment (74 total)
2 pts : Electric Drives, Oil Fired Boilers available 1906
1 pt : Up to Historical 1910 aircraft and countermeasures, available 1910
1 pt : Night Fighting Basic tactics, Specialised nighttime acquisition Searchlight mounts, night scopes available 1910
1 pt : Centralized FC, early directors – 10km, available 1910
---
50pts

Total : 505.678 + 44.3 = 549.978, remainder 0.022

Naval Infrastructure Cost : (4.5+10.8+4.5+10.8+4.7+9) : 44.3
Drydocks :
50m : 9
120m : 9
150m : 3
180m : 6
235m : 2

Floating 180m : 1

Edit : 8/11/17
While making sure my refits were figured out and accounted for, I started finding little errors in my sheet. Like paying 3000 for the 3840 ton scout cruisers, or paying for 4 of the CDBB and MLs, but only giving myself 2 of each...  I have tried to clean it all up and get it correct. Sorry.

Edit : 8/13/17
Apparently I screwed up the first time I tried to fix things. I think it's all fixed now.

Ships : 504.462 BP

List : Revised 8/13/17

1894  4x  CDBB  6750t updated 1904, 1907
1894  6x  ACR1  9000t  updated 1904, 1907
1894  6x  TBC (with 48TB on board), 7500t,  updated 1904, 1907
1894  2x  SC (Scout Cruiser) 3840t,  updated 1901, 1904, 1907
1894 12x FFA (Sailing Steam Armored Frigate) , 3000t ,  updated 1904, 1907
1894 10 x RGB (Riverine Gunboat ), 250t
1894 48x TB, 60t (plus the 48 paid as part of the TBCs)
1894 4x NSF (Naval Stores Ship, 9000t (M), updated 1904, 1907
1896 8x PG 900t, updated 1904, 1907
1897 2x BB 11400t,  updated 1904, 1907
1897 4x NSF 9000t(M) updated 1904, 1907
1899 2x ACR 9100t,  updated 1907
1899 2x SC 3000t, updated 1902, 1904, 1907
1899 4x ML 1000t, updated 1904, 1907
1899 32x DD 210t,
1899-1900 72x TB
1900 2x PC 6000t, updated 1907
1900 2x BB 14500t,  updated 1907
1902 1x 1902SS 250t
1902 2x PC 6000t, updated 1907
1902 12x MSW 250t
1904 1x CS 3000t (first large turbine warships for Parthia), updated 1907
1904 2x PC 6000t, updated 1907
1904 16x DD 500t , updated 1907
1904 48x TB 60t
1904 2x BB 17000t , updated 1907
1905 2x ACR 12300t, updated 1907
1906 4x DN 23000t
1906 2x PC 6000t, updated 1907
1906 8x DD 750t, updated 1907
1906 48x MTB-A 40t
1907 2x DN 22,000t
1907 4x 1905SS 500t
1908-1909  48 x MTB-A 40t
1908 8x DD 750t
1908 4x ACR 11,800t committed of 14750t, Launched
1909 4x DN 4000t committed of 29,000t

Type  : In Service (building) (Refitting)
CDBB : 4 (0) (0)
BB : 6 (0) (0)
DN : 6 (4) (0)
BC : 0 (0) (0)
ACR : 10 (4) (0)
TBC: 6 (0) (0)
PC : 8 (0) (0)
SC/FF : 17 (0) (0)
GB: 18
DD: 64 (0) (0)
TB : 312 (0) (0)
SS : 5 (0)(0)
NFS : 8 (0)(0)

Kirk. I noticed that you have listed the 1910 Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier Architecture and the 1910 Aircraft and Countermeasures in the technology thread in the Parthian encyclopedia. I got the impression that the 1909 and 1910 were off limits with the starting setup. Also, even if we were allowed to pick them for research, you did not pay for either those levels of technology. There is only this...

Quote1 pt : Up to Historical 1910 aircraft and countermeasures, available 1910

... which is the 1906 tech and not the 1910 tech. Seems like you keep on mixing up them years. :)

QuoteIberian startup:

50 modification points
--6 Points invested into 2 ICs
--10 Points invested into 2 BPs
--6 Points invested into 60 additional startup BPs
--4 Points invested into 40 Land Points
--2 Points invested into 20 Deployment Points
--11 Points invested into the following Technologies
----2 Points invested 1906 Naval Propulsion [Avalible 1906]
----6 Points invested 1908 Destroyers [Avalible 1908]
----1 Point invested 1908 Fire Control
----1 Point invested 1908 Torpedos
----2 point invested 1906 Aircraft [Avalible 1906]

Correct me if I am wrong... but with the techs, 2+6+1+1+2=12 points spent on technologies so you need 1 more point for that. This is not really an issue as 6+10+6+4+2+12= 40 points so you would still have 10 points left to spend after correcting the points invested in technologies to 12.

Quote from: Walter on August 27, 2017, 05:34:44 AM
Kirk. I noticed that you have listed the 1910 Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier Architecture and the 1910 Aircraft and Countermeasures in the technology thread in the Parthian encyclopedia. I got the impression that the 1909 and 1910 were off limits with the starting setup. Also, even if we were allowed to pick them for research, you did not pay for either those levels of technology. There is only this...

Good point Walter.
The tech I bought is this :

QuoteAircraft and Countermeasures:
Baseline: None, perhaps a few private experimenters with gliders or hot air balloons.
1902: Up to Historical 1906 aircraft and countermeasures
1906: Up to Historical 1910 aircraft and countermeasures
1910: Up to Historical 1914 aircraft and countermeasures

Quote

As you can see, it's a 1906 tech. I made it available in 1910.
So that should be fine.

Now the Aircraft Carrier tech is :

QuoteAircraft/Seaplane Carrier Architecture:
Baseline: None
1910: Experimental aviation ships. Requires and is automatically granted upon completion of the 1910 Aircraft tech.

Where I messed up is I was reading the Aircraft Carrier bit as the 1910 aircraft, which I have, not the tech- which I don't have.

Good catch, thanks for double checking.
I'll go delete that.

In the meantime, I've revised my map for 5 provinces.
I have a hard time counting these things. They should be 20, 21, 20, 20 and 24 provinces (?)- with the extra 3 being in Mekkan and are essentially the Arabian Desert.  Ironically, I had to trim off the historical province of Mekkan, but since the original word is believed to be a phrase meaning "Fish eaters" I thought it a great name for my coastal provinces. I actually wanted it two provinces bigger, extending to Shiraz and up the Tigris, but that just wasn't working out numerically. I figured empty desert wasn't worth worrying about though.

One prominent error, capital of Media is supposed to be Tabriz, not Tbilsi

(https://s20.postimg.org/uqqm5k1pp/N7_Parthia_5_Cities_names.png) (https://postimages.org/)

As one can see, Baghdad (& my ancient capitals of Cstephion and Babylon) are just outside my boundaries, so I need to discuss with Jefgte when he took that from me.
I think the 1800s would be a good time, but it may have been earlier.

Notional Modification Points for "Sweden/Green":

-20 MP:  +4 BP
-19 MP:  R&D
---6 each for 1908 DD and Rangefinders; 2 each for 1906 propulsion and planes; 1 each for 1908 mines, night-fighting, and torpedoes
-11 MP:  Land and/or Deployment (exact mix to be determined)

I think I'll call it the Vilnius Union, or Vilniusunionen in Swedish.  Commonly known as the Union (duh).

You will find your title has been updated to reflect this.

Guess I should remove the Perfidious Ottoman bit.

Or is that a clue?

*Strokes white cat*

Quote*Strokes white cat*

I assume you checked Wikipedia regarding the man with the white cat. He's your problem in the future. ;D

No doubt Rome will send Agent VII to sort him out.

Anybody want to link me with the correct version of Springsharp?

QuoteNo doubt Rome will send Agent VII to sort him out.

We are keeping him locked up at the Rock as a permanent 'guest'...

... oh wait! That was just the first one. There are more that followed him. ;D

QuoteAnybody want to link me with the correct version of Springsharp?

Should be here...
http://www.springsharp.com/info.htm#preview

Gonna take me a few days, at the least, to sim all the ships.  Here's the TL;DR version of what I have in mind:

~2% of BP assigned to river gunboat/monitor stuff on the major rivers (Rhine, Elbe, etc).  A few small drydocks inland.

~5% of BP assigned to auxiliaries; my headcanon says Vilniusunionen is not especially, um, outgoing, and so sticks mostly close to home where there are plenty of long-established bases.  Icebreakers, survey ships, transports, etc.

~15% of BP assigned to the High Seas Fleet, which would be big-arsed armored cruisers for when outgoing is required, mostly homeported somewhere in the west like Amsterdam.

~35% of BP assigned to the Swarm, which would be a metric crapload of torpedo-boats, protected cruisers, torpedo cruisers, rams, monitors and gunboats (backed up by shore batteries), many of which would be stationed around the Danish Straits.

~43%  of BP assigned to the Shield, which would be the battleline.

The theory, then, would be that the Union builds and operates a fleet and shore defences intended to wall off enemies from getting through the Danish Straits into the Baltic, which becomes a bastion for internal trade.  In the Wild West of the Kattegat and North Sea, things get a little more hairy.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 08, 2017, 07:46:56 PM

~35% of BP assigned to the Swarm, which would be a metric crapload of torpedo-boats, protected cruisers, torpedo cruisers, rams, monitors and gunboats (backed up by shore batteries), many of which would be stationed around the Danish Straits.

Would Parthia's 312 torpedo boats count as "metric crapload" ?  They are backed by 8 protected and 17 scout / frigate cruisers :) Though the Straits of Hormuz are also guarded by a pair of elderly battleships "Keymaster" and the "GateKeeper".  Remember, if someone asks if you're a god, say "yes".

QuoteWould Parthia's 312 torpedo boats count as "metric crapload" ?

With "metric crapload", I think of 1000 TBs. you only have 31% if that number. Must be an imperial thing. :D

QuoteRemember, if someone asks if you're a god, say "yes".

This guy has the right idea. :)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lksq2snUMr1qjh9ujo1_500.gif)

Quote from: Walter on November 14, 2017, 12:09:15 PM

With "metric crapload", I think of 1000 TBs. you only have 31% if that number. Must be an imperial thing. :D

Awww...
They do displace over 18,000 metric tons... and fire over 600 torpedoes.

Okay, proposed sub-division of the Vilnius Union.

This reflects my current assumption that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - Rzeczpospolita - was the early dominant power in the union.  It's the biggest region, and picked up bits of Romania/Moldova/Ukraine quite recently.  21 IC, 9 BP.

Sweden was the junior partner in the union, and was effectively cut in two.  Rump Sverige has 8 IC and 4 BP.

The cut-off parts of Sweden picked up Livonia and such to create Suomi, with 8 IC and 2 BP.

Next came Czechia/Slovakia bits, to which Bavaria and Austrian bits were added later; this is Dunaj, with 7 IC and 3 BP.

Next came Deutschland, which features Prussia/Brandenburg and some other German bits.  It is not a coincidence that Deutschland excludes a lot of what might be considered German lands.  Still the second most powerful region with 14 IC and 6 BP.

Finally came Nordsoen, which includes late-ish acquisitions like Denmark and the Netherlands and some German stuff in-between.  This is 11 IC and 4 BP.

*Numbers reflect point-buys from modification points.

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 07, 2017, 06:48:28 PM
Notional Modification Points for "Sweden/Green":

-20 MP:  +4 BP
-19 MP:  R&D
---6 each for 1908 DD and Rangefinders; 2 each for 1906 propulsion and planes; 1 each for 1908 mines, night-fighting, and torpedoes
-11 MP:  Land and/or Deployment (exact mix to be determined)

Revised to:

-20 MP:  +4 BP
-3 MP:  +1 IC
-13 MP:  +130 Land/Deployment
-14 MP:  6 for RF, 2 for propulsion and planes, 1 for DD, mines, night-fighting, torpedoes

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on March 21, 2018, 06:09:04 PM
Okay, proposed sub-division of the Vilnius Union.

This reflects my current assumption that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - Rzeczpospolita - was the early dominant power in the union.  It's the biggest region, and picked up bits of Romania/Moldova/Ukraine quite recently.  21 IC, 9 BP.

Sweden was the junior partner in the union, and was effectively cut in two.  Rump Sverige has 8 IC and 4 BP.

The cut-off parts of Sweden picked up Livonia and such to create Suomi, with 8 IC and 2 BP.

Next came Czechia/Slovakia bits, to which Bavaria and Austrian bits were added later; this is Dunaj, with 7 IC and 3 BP.

Next came Deutschland, which features Prussia/Brandenburg and some other German bits.  It is not a coincidence that Deutschland excludes a lot of what might be considered German lands.  Still the second most powerful region with 14 IC and 6 BP.

Finally came Nordsoen, which includes late-ish acquisitions like Denmark and the Netherlands and some German stuff in-between.  This is 11 IC and 4 BP.

*Numbers reflect point-buys from modification points.

This got revised somewhat to fix the Deutschland and Danuj borders.  See the encyclopedia for details.

I think I'm ready to go, guys.

Nordic cross and color choices reference the flags of Poland, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and the Imperial German flag.  Four crowns symbolize the union and reference the cardinal directions

I put this in my Encyclopedia, but figured I'd repost it here.

About Parthia

The Parthian Empire is so named specifically to distinguish this nation from our world's Iran or Persia. There have been substantial timeline changes which result in a very different sovereign state.

There are three primary changes :
I. The Muslim conquest historically found an Empire exhausted by war with Byzantium and torn by civil war.  In Navalism, the resistance is more successful, not all the nation falls. This allows alliances to be wrought and deals made, and over several decades, the Muslim invasion is defeated. This removes a large base of wealth and knowledge from the Caliphate, leading to the Muslim efforts elsewhere to be less vigorous than historical.

II. As part of the resistance to the Muslim Invasion, a Succession Law and Imperial Code (a Magna Carta) is established by Queen XX. This stops the splintering caused by the succession and civil wars. This allows a centralized government to run a centralized state for the next 1,300 years.

III. Historically, the Mongol invasion, included destroying the cities, the hydraulic infrastructure, depopulating the  landscape, killing off the men, shipping the scholars, scientists, women and children off as slaves... and leaving the Iranian plateau open to various Turkic conquerors who set up a succession of weak Empires.

In Navalism7, the centralized and prosperous Parthian state does loose it's first armies and the area between the Caspian to the Oxus river, roughly the northern 1/3 of the Empire. Unlike historically, that did not shatter the state. The Empire is able to fall back into mountains and desert, raise further armies with elephants and camels, field their own traditional horse archers. Much like the Hungarians or Arabs, the Parthians are able to fight on terrain dis favorable to the Mongols.  The Mongols are deflected north and west, and the Parthians eventually recapture the Trans-Oxus region.

Basic Information

The Empire is a constitutional Monarchy, with a weak legislature and powerful monarch.

The Parthian Empire of Navalism7 has been ruled by the Arsacid Dynasty since 247 BCE. This Dynasty claims lineage to Cyrus the Great of 550BCE.

The Succession Law of the House of Arsacid requires the Emperor to designate and maintain a list of four heirs. The Succession Law also forbids the House of Arsacid to marry with members of any of the Greater Nobility of the Empire, or any other member of the House of Arsacid within three Degrees of the Blood. This has led to the Royal house to marry extensively with the Lesser Nobility and with foreign Royals.

Requirements: Each Heir must be of clear Arsacid Lineage, of age, and of sound mind and of good moral character.

Degrees of the Blood :
A Father, a brother, a son would all be of the First Degree. 
A Mother, Sister, Daughter, Uncle, Grandfather, Grandson, would all be considered Second Degree.
Females may be Heirs, but are considered one degree further than their birth would otherwise merit.
Oddly, illegitimate children born to Female Arsacids are illegible to be included, albeit at a penalty of two further degrees, but not illegitimate children merely claimed by Male Arsacids. 

The Ranking :
The Emperor must consider and either rank or reject first all kin of the First Degree of the Blood, followed by those of the Second Degree, and then those of the Third Degree, etc. 


Should the Emperor fail to produce a list, or the members die, or commit a capital crime such as regicide, treason, murder, etc, then the law specifies that the succession fall to the eldest of the nearest degree of blood.

The Testing : When first added they present themselves before the House of Lords and answer questions to verify their merit. Only a 2/3rds Vote can reject a Heir. Likewise, an Heir can be re-examined, should the majority of the Lords demand it.

There is an Imperial Parliament, with a House of Commons and a House of Lords. At lower levels, there are only Houses of Commons.

Heads of Noble Houses, retired Generals or Admirals, Guild Leaders, and leaders of the various Churches, all sit in the House of Lords.

Legislature members are elected. However, each echelon of government (Shire/City, Fief, Province, Satrap/Kingdom, Imperial) sends the senior members of it's legislature to the next highest legislature. As non-title holding members of the lesser and greater nobility can, and do, run for office, they are usually found at the highest levels. The result is the local government is responsive and flexible, but the Imperial Parliament is invested in the status quo and very conservative.

The Empire is officially Zoroastrian.  Christians (typically Nestorian), Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and some old Babylonian and Greek faiths all find welcome within the borders.   The Zoroastrian faith is ancient and holds that a Creator force of Good is in conflict with a force of Evil, and that all humans have a choice. The Zoroastrian faith also hold Truth, of all types, as a form of Good.  The faith also preaches a stewardship for nature.

The Empire has benefited from the land and sea "Silk Road" from China, and served as intermediary for nearly 2,500 years. Some of the oldest cities in the world are part of the Empire.

The Empire is a "Hydraulic Empire", where the State is critical for maintenance and planning of long term infrastructure such as quanats (underground aqueducts), dams, irrigation, roads. When combined with the Zoroastrian stewardship ethos, this makes the State responsible for such things as soil conservation, forestry, etc.

The result is a Parthia far more verdant than today's Iran/Afghanistan.  The State is entrusted- and has been for 2500 years- with responsible land management. The Zorastorism concepts of balance with nature results in stewardship being a goal.  The roads, dams and irrigation systems are built and maintained as part of the State's core trust. The valleys have irrigated crops and rice paddies.  Gentle hills are terraced for agriculture, steeper hills have orchards and forests.  Grazing is dispersed and lower in intensity so that areas are not denuded of plants.

The Empire has been fighting the Byzantine Empire since Roman Times. The Romans invaded starting in 54BCE, leading to 1,964 years of repeated conflict. The last great war in 1872 saw the loss of Parthian's holdings west of the Tigris, including the ruins of Ctesiphon, the capital sacked by the Muslims in 651AD.

Parthia has also repeatedly waged war against the Golden Horde to the North, and the Hindi states to the East, suffering humiliation in Gujarat in 1896. Parthia was rent by civil war in 1848, as the burgeoning mercantile class demanded more freedoms. While the revolt was put down, the Emperor called a conference, and eventually decreed reforms.

Quietly borrows format for IRR synopsis.

Question :

How long are the MTB-As?
1) Can I call them 20m? that's what I had been presuming
2) If not, how long are they, and does anyone mind greatly that I tinker with my dock lengths so I can fit 2 at once ?  If I delete 1x 50m I can make 9x 50m ->55m, and then stick 1 x 5m elsewhere, probably the floating dock.

I was presuming (for some reason) that 40t MTB-As would be 20m long.
20m + 10m +20m = 50m... so I could build 2 at a time in my 50m docks.
Like all <500ton vessels they take 6 months to build, 40% must be in dock.

2.4 months in dock + 1 month gap + 2.4 months in dock.... etc.. works out to 3 .5 per year... so 6 / dock / year.  I could build 12/year to keep my squadrons fresh quite easily.

Except doing some digging, there is precious little on MTB lengths. I found that Vosper 70ft was 34-40t, and Vosper 72 was 42 tons. 
Those would be 21+ m.

I would be ok with assigning a generic length for MTBs. Unless someone really wants to go to bat for another, 20m sounds fine for A Class.