Vilnius Union Ships, 1930+: The Good, The Bad, and the Unseaworthy

[The Rock Doctor]

Another 900 t lets me bump the airgroup up to 48/40 if I'm so inclined.

[The Rock Doctor]

Tinkered with a 500t torpedo-boat since it was topical.  It's not a concept I find useful for my own purposes - I'd rather build fewer but larger torpedo-boats and mixed them in with MTBs.

The miscellaneous weight allows for three to four 21" torpedoes or up to six 18" torpedoes, with a tonne or more allocated to weight reserves or a handful of depth charges (to deter pursuit or drop if one happens to encounter a diving sub).  The above-deck weight is basic fire control and a lamp.

Trial speed would be 32.48 knots, for a bump of 2.37 knots.



Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1931

Displacement:
   498 t light; 524 t standard; 573 t normal; 613 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (239.36 ft / 229.66 ft) x 21.65 ft x (9.84 / 10.28 ft)
   (72.96 m / 70.00 m) x 6.60 m  x (3.00 / 3.13 m)

Armament:
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 400 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides aft
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.18lbs / 1.89kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mount, 1931 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
      4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      Weight of broadside 35 lbs / 16 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.59" / 15 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   4th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 16,756 shp / 12,500 Kw = 30.11 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 90 tons

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0.266 million / $1.064 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 1.4%
      - Guns: 8 tons, 1.4%
   Armour: 5 tons, 0.8%
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0.8%
   Machinery: 296 tons, 51.6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 173 tons, 30.2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 75 tons, 13.1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 17 tons, 3.0%
      - On freeboard deck: 15 tons
      - Above deck: 2 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     163 lbs / 74 Kg = 12.6 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.410 / 0.420
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00%,  16.73 ft / 5.10 m,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m
      - Forward deck:   40.00%,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m
      - Aft deck:   20.00%,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m
      - Average freeboard:      11.42 ft / 3.48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.5%
   Waterplane Area: 3,080 Square feet or 286 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 55%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 113 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 3.90
      - Overall: 0.61
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

 

[Kaiser Kirk]

I would ditch the armor, as you discovered, it does not scale well,
so that's 5 tons for spray shields, nail up some plywood :)

About the same speed as my efforts.
My little ones tend to have high cruise speeds on the basis of a sortie out of port,
deep into sealanes and then run for home before anything can catch it.

I tend to have a 90mm gun armament, but I don't have any 75mm weapons...

[The Rock Doctor]

I would ditch the armor, as you discovered, it does not scale well,
so that's 5 tons for spray shields, nail up some plywood :)

About the same speed as my efforts.
My little ones tend to have high cruise speeds on the basis of a sortie out of port,
deep into sealanes and then run for home before anything can catch it.

I tend to have a 90mm gun armament, but I don't have any 75mm weapons...

*Vilnius Union Lumber Coalition likes this post*

[Jefgte]

This 500t TB isn't bad at all.

[The Rock Doctor]

Refurbishment of the light cruiser Bug II, best known for having a bit of VIP transport capability. 

Like the Magdala class, the work is primarily about replacing the armament with newer stuff, as well as updating fire control and moving the night-fighting doodads upward.  However, I was apparently more diligent about assigning miscellaneous weight to the correct location this time so I don't have as much other stuff to move around.

That makes for slightly less expensive refurbishment costs:  $1.55 and 0.296 BP.


Bug II, protected cruiser laid down 1918, refurbished 1932

Displacement:
   5,215 t light; 5,458 t standard; 5,929 t normal; 6,305 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (470.22 ft / 465.88 ft) x 46.59 ft x (20.34 / 21.28 ft)
   (143.32 m / 142.00 m) x 14.20 m  x (6.20 / 6.49 m)

Armament:
      10 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 67.62lbs / 30.67kg shells, 250 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.18lbs / 1.89kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 711 lbs / 322 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.15" / 80 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   0.98" / 25 mm   104.95 ft / 31.99 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
     Main Belt covers 119% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      3.15" / 80 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.15" / 80 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 50,938 shp / 38,000 Kw = 29.93 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 847 tons

Complement:
   337 - 439

Cost:
   £1.014 million / $4.056 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 177 tons, 3.0%
      - Guns: 177 tons, 3.0%
   Armour: 1,089 tons, 18.4%
      - Belts: 756 tons, 12.8%
      - Armament: 52 tons, 0.9%
      - Armour Deck: 258 tons, 4.4%
      - Conning Tower: 22 tons, 0.4%
   Machinery: 1,838 tons, 31.0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,783 tons, 30.1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 713 tons, 12.0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 329 tons, 5.5%
      - Hull below water: 25 tons
      - Hull above water: 25 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 161 tons
      - Above deck: 118 tons

Fittings:
-18 t:  Fire control (AD)   -new
-25 t:  L/R wireless (AD)
-50 t:  Flag facilities (AD)
-25 t:  Nightfighting doodads (AD)   -new
-40 t:  VIP accommodation (FD)
-16 t:  Accommodation for four senior VIP aides (FD)
-30 t:  Accommodation for fifteen junior VIP aides (FD)
-12 t:  Office space for CIP aides (FD)
-2 t:   VIP cargo/luggage (FD)
-25 t:  Night-fighting doodads (FD)
-25 t:  Additional climate-control systems (FD)
-24 t:  2x3 530mm heavyweight torpedoes, no reloads (FD)   -new
-12 t:  Weight reserve (FD)
-25 t:  Additional fire-fighting mains (AW)
-25 t:  Additional pumps (BW)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,651 lbs / 2,110 Kg = 69.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.470 / 0.478
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   45.00%,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   20.00%,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.32 ft / 5.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.4%
   Waterplane Area: 14,080 Square feet or 1,308 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 352 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.83
      - Longitudinal: 1.78
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Date too early for dual purpose gun - Main Battery



.043 / .043 for misc weight
.048 / .024 for new torps
.354/.177 for new armament
.052/.052 for new armament armor
=====
1.546/.296

[The Rock Doctor]

An economy-sized armored cruiser - it has armor, it's a cruiser, it's an armored cruiser.  Right?

That said, I don't think it's in my build plans. 



Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1932

Displacement:
   12,938 t light; 13,626 t standard; 14,914 t normal; 15,945 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (632.11 ft / 616.80 ft) x 68.90 ft x (25.59 / 26.89 ft)
   (192.67 m / 188.00 m) x 21.00 m  x (7.80 / 8.20 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1932 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      10 - 3.94" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.77lbs / 13.96kg shells, 400 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
     1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
      12 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.18lbs / 1.89kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,666 lbs / 1,663 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.12" / 130 mm   400.92 ft / 122.20 m   16.37 ft / 4.99 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   2.56" / 65 mm      5.12" / 130 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 107,239 shp / 80,000 Kw = 32.03 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,319 tons

Complement:
   674 - 877

Cost:
   £5.590 million / $22.361 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,007 tons, 6.8%
      - Guns: 1,007 tons, 6.8%
   Armour: 3,207 tons, 21.5%
      - Belts: 1,392 tons, 9.3%
      - Armament: 510 tons, 3.4%
      - Armour Deck: 1,254 tons, 8.4%
      - Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.3%
   Machinery: 3,165 tons, 21.2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,138 tons, 34.4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,976 tons, 13.3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 421 tons, 2.8%
      - On freeboard deck: 170 tons
      - Above deck: 251 tons

Fittings:
-101 t:  Fire control (AD)
-25 t:  L/R wireless (AD)
-25 t:  Huelsmeyer Device (AD)
-25 t:  Nightfighting doodads (AD)
-50 t:  Command facilities (AD)
-55 t:  Two armed scouts and a catapult (FD)
-The rest:  I dunno

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,213 lbs / 8,261 Kg = 38.2 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.488
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  28.54 ft / 8.70 m,  24.28 ft / 7.40 m
      - Forward deck:   40.00%,  24.28 ft / 7.40 m,  24.28 ft / 7.40 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00%,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      21.47 ft / 6.54 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.0%
   Waterplane Area: 27,810 Square feet or 2,584 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 619 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.69
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

[Jefgte]

This is a correct 13000t cruiser.

[TacCovert4]

It is a 13,000t cruiser.  Though I concur with Rocky that it's balanced too much towards speed.  I wonder if you could get a 4th turret on that if you went down to 30.5 or 31kts.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well, it's rather similar to the same problem I've been trying to solve with all my 'light armored cruiser' designs that led to the 15,000 ton Xiyon.

It's actually closer the the 11,500 6-gun version I posted, but shares the same 6-gun deficiency,
and relatively poor belt.

[The Rock Doctor]

Running though a sim for refit of the Szermierz class armored cruisers and I was like, "I'm only adding 114 t of new guns, why is my hull strength so low?"

Then I realized I was also adding 150 t of extra AA ammunition for those new guns.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Yeah, I had that discovery too. It's annoying isn't it ?
When can I mount mount my anti-aircraft lasers ?

[The Rock Doctor]

Might be a year or two still.

I suppose an interim measure is to fit the guns and just not put ammo aboard for them.

[Jefgte]

...I suppose an interim measure is to fit the guns and just not put ammo aboard for them.

Museum cruisers.

[The Rock Doctor]

That is also an option.

I think one of three things ends up happening:

-I fit the AA package I envisioned, but have to cut into the miscellaneous weight I'd assigned for extra damage control, as a refit

-I scale down the AA package and fit it into the weight reserve margin, as a refit

-I bite the bullet and refurbish in order to replace the secondary 130mm battery with DP guns.

Haven't decided which of those options to pursue just yet.