Mayan Fleet 1923...

[Jefgte]

Stronger than 19470t BB5 (3T3x356)

I like this one but, I know, Aztec did'nt like.

9x406, Mayan BB5 laid down 1923

Displacement:
    22 285 t light; 23 952 t standard; 24 727 t normal; 25 347 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
    (573,66 ft / 570,87 ft) x 95,14 ft x (26,56 / 27,10 ft)
    (174,85 m / 174,00 m) x 29,00 m  x (8,09 / 8,26 m)

Armament:
      9 - 15,98" / 406 mm 45,0 cal guns - 2 059,37lbs / 934,11kg shells, 100 per gun
      Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1923 Model
      3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      10 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,18lbs / 24,12kg shells, 230 per gun
      Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
      10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      28 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,20lbs / 1,45kg shells, 1 500 per gun
      Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
      14 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
        14 raised mounts
      8 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
      Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
      4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
        4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 19 156 lbs / 8 689 kg

Armour:
  - Belts:        Width (max)    Length (avg)        Height (avg)
    Main:    11,8" / 300 mm    391,04 ft / 119,19 m    11,71 ft / 3,57 m
    Ends:    1,77" / 45 mm    179,79 ft / 54,80 m    11,71 ft / 3,57 m
    Upper:    3,54" / 90 mm    391,04 ft / 119,19 m    8,01 ft / 2,44 m
      Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
        1,57" / 40 mm    391,04 ft / 119,19 m    25,03 ft / 7,63 m
    Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72,18 ft / 22,00 m

  - Gun armour:    Face (max)    Other gunhouse (avg)    Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main:    13,4" / 340 mm    3,35" / 85 mm        11,8" / 300 mm
    3rd:    0,39" / 10 mm          -                  -
    4th:    0,20" / 5 mm          -                  -
    5th:    0,20" / 5 mm          -                  -

  - Protected deck - single deck:
    For and Aft decks: 3,54" / 90 mm
    Forecastle: 1,38" / 35 mm  Quarter deck: 1,38" / 35 mm

  - Conning towers: Forward 11,81" / 300 mm, Aft 4,72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
    Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
    Geared drive, 4 shafts, 31 648 shp / 23 609 Kw = 21,00 kts
    Range 4 800nm at 12,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 1 395 tons

Complement:
    985 - 1 281

Cost:
    £7,888 million / $31,553 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 3 181 tons, 12,9 %
      - Guns: 3 181 tons, 12,9 %
    Armour: 8 136 tons, 32,9 %
      - Belts: 2 980 tons, 12,1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 570 tons, 2,3 %
      - Armament: 1 922 tons, 7,8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2 360 tons, 9,5 %
      - Conning Towers: 302 tons, 1,2 %
    Machinery: 1 058 tons, 4,3 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 366 tons, 37,9 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 442 tons, 9,9 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 545 tons, 2,2 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 52 tons
      - Above deck: 343 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
      30 855 lbs / 13 995 Kg = 15,1 x 16,0 " / 406 mm shells or 4,9 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
    Metacentric height 6,5 ft / 2,0 m
    Roll period: 15,7 seconds
    Steadiness    - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
            - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,84
    Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,44

Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck,
      a ram bow and a cruiser stern
    Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,600 / 0,603
    Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 23,89 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
    Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
                Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:    16,25 %,  26,57 ft / 8,10 m,  21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Forward deck:    34,25 %,  21,33 ft / 6,50 m,  16,73 ft / 5,10 m
      - Aft deck:    34,25 %,  16,73 ft / 5,10 m,  16,73 ft / 5,10 m
      - Quarter deck:    15,25 %,  16,73 ft / 5,10 m,  16,73 ft / 5,10 m
      - Average freeboard:        18,61 ft / 5,67 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space    - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105,4 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137,4 %
    Waterplane Area: 39 725 Square feet or 3 691 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1 008 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0,94
        - Longitudinal: 1,74
        - Overall: 1,00
    Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
    Excellent accommodation and workspace room
    Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
    Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

AD
25t for Marconi
318t for Top fire control - 1918
OD
52t reserved
AW
50t for additionnal air equipement
BW
100t for additional pumps

[Kaiser Kirk]

Ambitious.

But I think it tries to much on the tonnage.

An 4 TG2 arrangement would offer comparable firepower with more survivability than 3T3
but with a comparable offensive output.

The upper belt and main belt arrangement is one I always calculate out.
The 5.10m freeboard is the top of the upper belt.
That means 5.10 to +2.66 is the upper belt (2.44m high).
That would put the main belt as +2.66 to -0.91.
That is not deep enough to defend against diving shells in the 400mm range.

The 90mm protected deck is a single deck.
That means there is no armor across the top of the upper belt.
So that upper citadel area is not protected very well.

The protected deck probably goes from +0.22 to -2.22, so the Main belt rises +2.44 m above the crown,
enough for most diving shells not to hit the slope. However range is increasing and this ship does not have the speed to compensate, which means diving shells are more of a problem.

At 300mm the belt is also not terribly thick. For a 1918 FC, it's vulnerable vs. own guns at all 'in fire control' ranges. The angle of attack will greatly change this, but considering the Aztec weapons that has to be a concern.

Based on Nelson's guns, the deck starts being vulnerable from 24km +
while the belt is vulnerable from 21km-
That is not a large IZ, 22-23km is about it.

Dual purpose guns are far to early. They won't have the tech for that, and as the Aztecs used Gross Torpedo Boats, they would very much want the split battery. What worked in the Mayan war was either torpedo attacks by either side, or mast-top glide bombing - level bombing was worthless and divebombing not thought of. 
So a mix of QF 5-6" for torpedo boats, 3-4" to conduct barrage fire on torpedo planes, and MGs or light autocannon for glide bombers.

The problem is, they would need 2 years post the Japanese-Mayan conflict to research and develop those weapons.

The TDS is 22m on a 29m hull, which means 3.5 deep. Not bad, but with a 40mm on the more minimal level.

The 4800nm at 12knots is a relatively short range. I don't recall the range to Martinique, but the ability to steam outside of land based Recon was important in that. Granted, they refueled in South America.
The other thing that should push up fleet speed is avoiding subs. Higher the cruise, harder for subs to get ahead for a shot.

[Jefgte]

Better BB5

9x406, Mayan BB5 laid down 1923

Displacement:
    23 500 t light; 25 196 t standard; 26 164 t normal; 26 938 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
    (573,64 ft / 570,87 ft) x 95,14 ft x (28,10 / 28,78 ft)
    (174,85 m / 174,00 m) x 29,00 m  x (8,56 / 8,77 m)

Armament:
      9 - 15,98" / 406 mm 45,0 cal guns - 2 059,36lbs / 934,11kg shells, 100 per gun
      Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1923 Model
      3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      10 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,18lbs / 24,12kg shells, 230 per gun
      Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
      10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      28 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,20lbs / 1,45kg shells, 1 500 per gun
      Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
      14 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
        14 raised mounts
      8 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
      Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
      4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
        4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 19 156 lbs / 8 689 kg

Armour:
  - Belts:        Width (max)    Length (avg)        Height (avg)
    Main:    13,0" / 330 mm    391,04 ft / 119,19 m    12,99 ft / 3,96 m
    Ends:    1,77" / 45 mm    179,79 ft / 54,80 m    11,68 ft / 3,56 m
    Upper:    3,54" / 90 mm    391,04 ft / 119,19 m    8,01 ft / 2,44 m
      Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
        1,77" / 45 mm    391,04 ft / 119,19 m    25,98 ft / 7,92 m
    Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72,18 ft / 22,00 m

  - Gun armour:    Face (max)    Other gunhouse (avg)    Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main:    13,8" / 350 mm    4,72" / 120 mm        12,6" / 320 mm
    3rd:    1,18" / 30 mm    0,79" / 20 mm        0,79" / 20 mm
    4th:    0,20" / 5 mm          -                  -
    5th:    0,20" / 5 mm          -                  -

  - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
    For and Aft decks: 4,13" / 105 mm
    Forecastle: 1,38" / 35 mm  Quarter deck: 3,35" / 85 mm

  - Conning towers: Forward 12,99" / 330 mm, Aft 4,72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
    Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
    Geared drive, 4 shafts, 32 639 shp / 24 349 Kw = 21,00 kts
    Range 6 000nm at 12,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 1 742 tons

Complement:
    1 028 - 1 337

Cost:
    £7,952 million / $31,806 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 3 120 tons, 11,9 %
      - Guns: 3 120 tons, 11,9 %
    Armour: 9 512 tons, 36,4 %
      - Belts: 3 499 tons, 13,4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 666 tons, 2,5 %
      - Armament: 2 139 tons, 8,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 2 872 tons, 11,0 %
      - Conning Towers: 336 tons, 1,3 %
    Machinery: 1 091 tons, 4,2 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 224 tons, 35,3 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 664 tons, 10,2 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 553 tons, 2,1 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 60 tons
      - Above deck: 343 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
      33 510 lbs / 15 200 Kg = 16,4 x 16,0 " / 406 mm shells or 5,5 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
    Metacentric height 6,4 ft / 2,0 m
    Roll period: 15,8 seconds
    Steadiness    - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
            - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,83
    Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,48

Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck,
      a ram bow and a cruiser stern
    Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,600 / 0,603
    Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 23,89 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
    Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
                Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:    16,25 %,  26,41 ft / 8,05 m,  21,16 ft / 6,45 m
      - Forward deck:    34,25 %,  21,16 ft / 6,45 m,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Aft deck:    34,25 %,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m,  15,91 ft / 4,85 m
      - Quarter deck:    15,25 %,  15,91 ft / 4,85 m,  15,91 ft / 4,85 m
      - Average freeboard:        18,40 ft / 5,61 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space    - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,2 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,0 %
    Waterplane Area: 39 725 Square feet or 3 691 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 990 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0,94
        - Longitudinal: 1,77
        - Overall: 1,00
    Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
    Excellent accommodation and workspace room
    Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
    Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

AD
25t for Marconi
318t for Top fire control - 1918
OD
20t for night fighting
40t reserved
AW
100t for climatisation
BW
100t for additional pumps

[Kaiser Kirk]

Darn it, lost my reply of yesterday !

Formidable ship.

Main guns are close to HMS Nelson's.
NavWeaps has estimated penetration data for those.
Gives a small but definite IZ.

The problem would be the main deck thickness.
If the 'multiple decks' are a 25mm over the 90mm upper belt, and 80mm over the 330mm main belt,
then by Okun's method, that's 25/2 + 80 = ~98mm.
Which puts the outer edge of the IZ for own guns at ~23km.

At the Battle of Veracruz, the Aztecs used their speed to keep the range open and were engaging from the 20-24km distance. At that 24km outer edge, they may penetrate.

If ranges grow much, or they make a better deck penetrating gun, or AP bombs get better,
those armor decks may not be adequate.

I think discarding the upper belt for more deck armor would make sense, or increase tonnage
to increase the deck armor.

[Jefgte]

It's impossible to increase the tonnage.
These ships cost "an arm and a leg", 23.5 BP for an 18 BP budget per year.
I reduced ends & upper belt.


9x406, Mayan BB5 laid down 1923

Displacement:
   23 500 t light; 25 196 t standard; 26 164 t normal; 26 938 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (573,64 ft / 570,87 ft) x 95,14 ft x (28,10 / 28,78 ft)
   (174,85 m / 174,00 m) x 29,00 m  x (8,56 / 8,77 m)

Armament:
      9 - 15,98" / 406 mm 45,0 cal guns - 2 059,36lbs / 934,11kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1923 Model
     3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      10 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,18lbs / 24,12kg shells, 230 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      28 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,20lbs / 1,45kg shells, 1 500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
     14 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
      14 raised mounts
      8 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 19 156 lbs / 8 689 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   371,06 ft / 113,10 m   12,99 ft / 3,96 m
   Ends:   1,38" / 35 mm   199,77 ft / 60,89 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Upper:   1,38" / 35 mm   371,06 ft / 113,10 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
      1,77" / 45 mm   371,06 ft / 113,10 m   26,51 ft / 8,08 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72,18 ft / 22,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   4,72" / 120 mm      12,6" / 320 mm
   3rd:   1,18" / 30 mm   0,79" / 20 mm      0,79" / 20 mm
   4th:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 4,92" / 125 mm
   Forecastle: 1,38" / 35 mm  Quarter deck: 3,35" / 85 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12,99" / 330 mm, Aft 4,72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 32 639 shp / 24 349 Kw = 21,00 kts
   Range 6 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 742 tons

Complement:
   1 028 - 1 337

Cost:
   £7,952 million / $31,806 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 120 tons, 11,9 %
      - Guns: 3 120 tons, 11,9 %
   Armour: 9 497 tons, 36,3 %
      - Belts: 3 061 tons, 11,7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 645 tons, 2,5 %
      - Armament: 2 139 tons, 8,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 3 316 tons, 12,7 %
      - Conning Towers: 336 tons, 1,3 %
   Machinery: 1 091 tons, 4,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 239 tons, 35,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 664 tons, 10,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 553 tons, 2,1 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 60 tons
      - Above deck: 343 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33 553 lbs / 15 220 Kg = 16,4 x 16,0 " / 406 mm shells or 5,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 6,5 ft / 2,0 m
   Roll period: 15,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,83
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,48

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,600 / 0,603
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  26,41 ft / 8,05 m,  21,16 ft / 6,45 m
      - Forward deck:   32,50 %,  21,16 ft / 6,45 m,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Aft deck:   32,50 %,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m,  15,91 ft / 4,85 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,50 %,  15,91 ft / 4,85 m,  15,91 ft / 4,85 m
      - Average freeboard:      18,42 ft / 5,62 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 39 725 Square feet or 3 691 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 989 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,78
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

AD
25t for Marconi
318t for Top fire control - 1918
OD
20t for night fighting
40t reserved
AW
100t for climatisation
BW
100t for additional pumps

[Kaiser Kirk]

Nice compact ship :)

[Jefgte]

Nice compact ship :)

I like it too.
I'd like 10 x 23,500t with 3T3x381 for Byzance.
Cheap and powerful...

[The Rock Doctor]

I suspect I'd have made some potentially different decisions if I'd known of this in the mid-twenties.

[TacCovert4]

Darn it, lost my reply of yesterday !

Formidable ship.

Main guns are close to HMS Nelson's.
NavWeaps has estimated penetration data for those.
Gives a small but definite IZ.

The problem would be the main deck thickness.
If the 'multiple decks' are a 25mm over the 90mm upper belt, and 80mm over the 330mm main belt,
then by Okun's method, that's 25/2 + 80 = ~98mm.
Which puts the outer edge of the IZ for own guns at ~23km.

At the Battle of Veracruz, the Aztecs used their speed to keep the range open and were engaging from the 20-24km distance. At that 24km outer edge, they may penetrate.

If ranges grow much, or they make a better deck penetrating gun, or AP bombs get better,
those armor decks may not be adequate.

I think discarding the upper belt for more deck armor would make sense, or increase tonnage
to increase the deck armor.

Exactly what I thought.   These are good against my implacables and monarchs.   The victory class and conqueror would penetrate them, and they would definitely be a reason for the Sovereign types with their 450mm guns.

[TacCovert4]

Overall the Mayan fleet is interesting.   The Aztecs, especially with the growing ties to Parthia, need long range.  The Mayans don't.   So on any given tonnage the Aztec ship will be both larger and less protected or powerful.   

Of course the Aztecs are compensating with increasingly large ships.   But while Relentless might easily crush one of these, it's two and a half times bigger and more expensive.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Technicality : Maya got 1915 tech in 1922. Which means developing the 406 would have been 1922, 1923.
So earliest laydown of the BB5 would have been 1924. 6 HY to build gives completiion at the end of 1927 and in service 1928.

I expect had I known,the BB5 would likely have accelerated when I chose to do my refurbishment of the Tiamat class, which saw their guns go from from 15x365 to 10x390.

Likewise I might have built a couple more  Wirozags...That would allow moving a couple Tiamat to the Atlantic/Pacific fleets. The 333mm standard on older battleships I have is more than enough for the other Mayan ships, but the 390 would match up well.