Nation Setup Thread

[snip]

Below is the current iteration of the map for the player nations.

At this time the roster reads as follows. From the time of this post, we will not be accepting new players until after the sim is already underway. I intend to supplement this with a World Map soon(tm).

Red: Snip
Yellow: Walter
Green: Darman
Light Green: Olekit
Orange: Kirk
Purple: Jef

What this thread is to be used for is stitching together the backstory of the Europe we see above. The very rough Point Of Divergence I drew up early drafts of the map under was a Western Roman Empire that never suffered the catastrophic collapse in the 400's and the other nations on the map (sans "Byzantium") congealed into being as counterbalances to a not fatally but heavily wounded Rome for their respective regions. With that on the table, I would like you to drum up some national backstories. Thets try and keep the OTL Historical events after the 400's referenced to a minimum. There are two big question we do need to figure out as a group.

--What happened to the Rise of Islam? Clearly, with these borders, Islam either rules vastly different swaths of land or was dealt much harder and lasting blows earlier. [Mod Note: I know this might become a very politicly charged topic, keep it civil.]
--What happened with the conquests of the Mongolians? I intended from the start to have a "Golden Hoard" state exist in "Russia" as a powerful deterrent against overland expansion to the east. Clearly, they got stopped from pushing to the Atlantic somehow.

I may add additional "big" questions later. I will at this time reserve the right to make lasting and cannon judgments on the final items posted here for the sake of time and civility.

[Walter]

Islam: I would think that "vastly different swaths of land" could apply and that they are well-established in those African grey bits. Kinda makes me wonder about Christianity as well. Did it split up into the various branches. Without any England, I'm not sure that the Church of England would be around.

Mongolians: Could be that they delivered a hard blow to the Russians resulting them being not on the map but it drained the Mongolian forces in such a manner that they were unable to continue their push further West. Could also be followed by some internal strife and fighting regarding succession that caused them to stop their westward advance.

[Darman]

I'll do a little digging tonight on the status of Europe during this early time period.

[Kaiser Kirk]

--What happened to the Rise of Islam? Clearly, with these borders, Islam either rules vastly different swaths of land or was dealt much harder and lasting blows earlier. [Mod Note: I know this might become a very politicly charged topic, keep it civil.]
--What happened with the conquests of the Mongolians? I intended from the start to have a "Golden Hoard" state exist in "Russia" as a powerful deterrent against overland expansion to the east. Clearly, they got stopped from pushing to the Atlantic somehow.

I've only done a little digging so far.
I am following the idea of the Empire being very very old, and still following some of the old religious ways. That would be possible if history repeated itself, therefore it needs to change.

Islam
Islam seems to have prospered and vigorously expanded at a time the Persian Empire had (as usual) been battling the Byzantium Empire from 202-228, but was also weakened from within by revolts and civil wars. The result was in 633 the Persian Army was exhausted when tested, and fell to the Muslims.  The Muslim conquest wasn't without some resistance, but largely localized after the weak Imperial Armies were defeated in several battles. The result was a very large and rich land fell to the Muslims and helped fuel their expansion into other areas.

My proposed history has the start going the same, but the efforts to gain allies that historically failed, here succeed. The result is a slow expulsion of the Muslims and critical weakening of them.
It also means that while Christianity - which spread peacefully and already was tolerated, remained welcome, Islam was not.
That would give a rational basis for a far weaker Islam for the Rashidun Caliphate. 

Now one wave could wash west along the North African coast and still conquer Iberia, but with out the resources of Islamic Persia fueling the expansion, the Eastern Romans should fare better.

Me, I was using the stress test of the invasion as a period of military and organizational reform, leading to a more unified and effective Empire.

Mongols
That brings me to the Mongols, where I don't want them tearing my entire civilization down.
so the bit I wrote about loosing battles on the plains, then regrouping and defeating them in the winter mountains... basically I'm retelling the Mongol experience in Hungary.
So a stronger and more unified Parthian Empire deflects the Mongols along the Caspian Sea.

Where they go from there is up to other folks. I guessing with a strong Eastern Roman Empire, they didn't sweep through modern Turkey and into the Middle East.
Which means a larger and more focused horde is available to flow around the Black Sea and into the Russian Steppe.
So I'm thinking they devastate Georgia and the Ukriane, and take the steppes.

Historically, they reduced the Russians to vassals - the Duchy of Muscovy. The Russians eventually threw that off and rapidly expanded. With more of the Mongol force in Russia, that may not occur, allowing Sweden to claim the Baltic Coast.

Heck, I'd be willing to write a history where the North Shore of the Caspian Sea fell to Parthia in the Great Northern War, when Sweden hammered the Golden Horde from the North, and the Parthians from the south, and with modern (1700s) weapons were able to defeat and shatter the Horde on the Steppe...  or something.

My borders
If you stroll through maps and time, you find that at one time or another the various Empires centered in modern Iran claimed pretty much all the territory mapped and more. At the height against the Byzantiums 628, after a 26 year war, they had pushed as far as Egypt, Lebanon, and the Sea of Mamara, attacked Constantinope, all while holding the East Bank of the Indus. That war exhausted both sides. Of course 5 years later, the Empire fell...
Only to the North does the border seems ahistorical, it doesn't appear they ever had the northern end of the Caspian.

I'm figuring the North Shore of the Caspian (1700s) and the Saudi to Omani (1800s) coast are fairly recent gains for Parthia. 
Baghdad->North in the Tigris/Euphrates basin belongs to the Enemy, so I think that was lost in the 1800s, and the Kingdoms of Armenia and Georgia long before that - perhaps just a matter of who reclaimed the area from the Mongols first.  There's 1700 years of history of that land going back and forth between Empires.
Out East, I think those borders are old, established in the 1500-1600s. The Southeastern edge is on the otherside of harsh desert and mountains, so hard for the Empire to reinforce, but at the same time, it's made of mountains with a couple passes, so hard for the Hindis of the Indus River valley to force.  The Afgahn holdings are simple slow creep along the silk road to China.

[Walter]

Not much of a historian so played a bit with some of the historical stuff within my borders and made up a few other things...


5th-11th century - Christianity spreads throughout Ireland, Scotland and later Norway.

<9th century - Various petty kingdoms spread out throughout Ireland, Scotland and Norway.

8th - Rise of the Vikings.

8th-9th century - Viking raids on the Britania Isles.

9th century - Kingdom of the Isles formed. Other parts of Scotland united into the Kingdom of Alba by Kenneth I, King of the Picts.

9th-10th century - Settlement of Iceland.

9th-11th century - Unification of Norway.

10th-11th century - Invasion of Ireland. Ireland dependency. Invasion of Scotland. Defeated Kingdom of Alba merges with the Kingdom of the Isles.

10th-15th century - Settlement of Greenland.

11th century - America discovered. Short-lived settlement built on Vinland. Denmark shortly rules Norway. Harald Hardrada retakes crown of Norway and then sucessfully campaigns against invading Anglo-Saxxons in the south of Scotland who want to establish a base to drive the Romans out of the southern part of the Britania Isles.

12th century - Novgorod secedes from Kievan Rus.

12th-13th century - Civil War Era.

13th century - Kievan Rus battered by Mongol invasion. Norway invades crumbling Novgorod Republic to prevent it from completely falling to the Mongol Horde. First Mongol-Norse war stops Mongolian Northern advance.

14th century - Kingdom of Ireland and Kingdom of the Isles merge with the Kingdom of Norway. Remnants of the Novgorod Republic merge with the Kingdom of Norway. The Northern Kingdom formed.

15th century - Greenland settlements vanished. Second Mongol-Norse War, Mongols failed to relaunch their northern advance.

17th century - Second Northern War. Following capture of Saint Petersburg by Swedish forces, Russian royal family flees North into the former Novgorod Republic lands (*). Jan Mayen discovered and starts being used as whaling base. Svalbard starts being used as whaling base.

18th century - King Sigurd III's Accord of the Five Kingdoms. Reformation of the Kingdoms of Ireland and Scotland and formation of the Kingdoms of Iceland and Novgorod (the latter with addition of Finnmark in the West). Sigurd III crowned as High King of Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Novgorod and Iceland. The Northern Kingdom becomes the Northern Kingdoms.

19th century - Olaf Sveinsson Land (OTL Franz Josef Land) discovered. Third Mongol-Norse War, Northern Kingdom regains former lands of the Novgorod Republic on the southern and eastern sides of the White Sea.

(*) Based off Darman's bit about it.

[Walter]

Few things I have been looking at since pretty much all my sims are posted (juggling things a bit, I had a bit left for one more design that I will be posting later): Americans who have their roots in Iceland/Ireland/Scotland/Norway (and there were a few well-known persons on that list, including numerous presidents) and a bit more detailed timeline using wiki. I bumped up the number of wars with the Mongols (originally 3, now 6) and messed around with the eastern border of the Northern Kingdom a bit to make a 1280-1910 map. The Swedish bit is probably a bit off. Darman will know better how its territory history runs. It's based on what he said about Sweden beating the Russians during the Second Northern War (1655–1660) so I assume that at that point, the Russian bits that are "currently" (=1910) are part of Sweden would have become Swedish (though it is possible that the Swedish held more Russian bits but lost it to the Mongols or vice versa).

[Walter]

Not much action going on and I kinda think that things should start moving forward...

50 modification points:
- 15 points spent on 3 BPs.
- 20 points spent on 200 BP extra naval ship and infrastructure points
- 2 points spent on 1906 Naval Propulsion tech.
- 1 point spent on 1906 Aircraft and Countermeasures tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Destroyer, Torpedo Boat, and Motor Torpedo Boat Architecture tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Rangefinding, Fire Control and Gunnery tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Night Fighting tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Torpedo tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Mine Warfare tech.
- 5 points spent on 50 Land (+34) and Deployment (+16) points.
- 2 points spent on 10 Fortification points.


Norse Kingdom at the start of 1910:
- 68 IC
- 27 BP
- 680 BP Ships/infrastructure
---- 616.7 BP spent on naval ships.
---- 63.3 BP spent on naval infrastructure.
- 114 Land points
- 40 Deployment points
- 50 Fortification ponts

[Kaiser Kirk]

So here's my version :

Parthian Prebuild

20- 4 BP
7- +70BP Ships & Infrastructure (550 BP total)
15- +90 land (170total), +60 deployment (84 total)
2 – 1908 Airplanes available 1910
4 – 1907 Firecontrol available 1907
2 - 1907 Big ship architecture available 1910 (guns 1912)
---
50pts


Parthian Empire at the Start of 1910
68 IC
28 BP
550 BP Ships / Infrastructure ( broken down below)
170 Land Points
84 Deployment points
40 Fortification points




Warship Cost : 523.32 BP
Warship Types
24 Capital Ship Architecture : 6,750ton Coast Def BBs – 23,000 ton Gilgamesh DNs
+4 Knight Class ACR and 2 Tiamat Class SDNs under construction
Note: This includes the deletion of 2 1904 PCs in favor of 2 of the newly posted 1904 Pisa-style ACRs.

70 Cruiser Architecture : 250t River Gunboats to 7,500t Torpedo boat carriers
104 Destroyer Architecture : 210t Destroyers to 750t Destroyers
368 (Destroyer) Torpedo boat/MTB Architecture : 60t Torpedo Boats and 40t MTB-As
6 Submarine Architecture : 250t and 500t submarines
8 Auxiliaries : 9,000 ton fleet replenishment.

Naval Ports and Drydocks
Port of Chabahar : 1x 50m, 1x 110m, 2x 180m,
Port of Abbas : 2x 50m, 1x 110m
Port of Bushehr : 1x 50m, 1x 110m, 2x 180m, 1x 240m
Port of Abadan : 1x 50m
Port of Mina Salman : 1x 50m, 1x 110m, 1x 180m
Port of Kahsab : 1x 50m,
Port of Muscat :1x 50m, 1x 110m, 2x 180m
Port of Salalah : 1x 50m, 1x 110m
Port of Nosharhr : 1 x 50m

50m : 10
110m : 6
180m : 7
240m : 1
Cost : (5+6.6+12.6+2.4) : 26.6

Total Naval Cost : 523.32+26.6 = 549.92
Spare : 0.08

[Kaiser Kirk]

Few things I have been looking at since pretty much all my sims are posted (juggling things a bit, I had a bit left for one more design that I will be posting later): Americans who have their roots in Iceland/Ireland/Scotland/Norway (and there were a few well-known persons on that list, including numerous presidents) and a bit more detailed timeline using wiki. I bumped up the number of wars with the Mongols (originally 3, now 6) and messed around with the eastern border of the Northern Kingdom a bit to make a 1280-1910 map. The Swedish bit is probably a bit off. Darman will know better how its territory history runs. It's based on what he said about Sweden beating the Russians during the Second Northern War (1655–1660) so I assume that at that point, the Russian bits that are "currently" (=1910) are part of Sweden would have become Swedish (though it is possible that the Swedish held more Russian bits but lost it to the Mongols or vice versa).

BTW, nice maps.
I'll try to scribe the Parthian edge of the Mongol Wars to fit around your date ranges, as it would make sense to gang up on them :)
I may even try maps of my own, but I'm busy the next 2 weekends.

[Walter]

2 – 1908 Airplanes available 1910
4 – 1907 Firecontrol available 1907
2 - 1907 Big ship architecture available 1910 (guns 1912)

Two things with this.

First, from what I understand that is said in the nationbuildingSetup.pdf file, it is only 1 point for 1906-9 techs when available in 1910 and not 1 point per year advanced from 1905.

Second, it looks like you used the tech years from your list that indicates which year they are available the earliest. Aircraft tech is 1906 and the next level is 1910, firecontrol is 1905 and the next one is 1908 and the capital ship architecture is 1905 and the next one is 1910. So the 1905 FC and 1905 capital ships are things you already have.

BTW, nice maps.
I'll try to scribe the Parthian edge of the Mongol Wars to fit around your date ranges, as it would make sense to gang up on them

Thanks. The one thing you may have noticed that the Mongols never managed to conquer the Solovetsky Islands in the White Sea. :)

I am messing around with some 'historical' events timeline so in the end I might fine-tune it a bit more and maybe a bit more action against the Mongols will appear in the slightly more distant past (prior to the current Sixth Mongol-Norse War).

I would think that the Parthian Empire would have similar struggles against the Mongols, sometimes gaining and sometimes losing ground.

[Kaiser Kirk]

First, from what I understand that is said in the nationbuildingSetup.pdf file, it is only 1 point for 1906-9 techs when available in 1910 and not 1 point per year advanced from 1905.

Second, it looks like you used the tech years from your list that indicates which year they are available the earliest. Aircraft tech is 1906 and the next level is 1910, firecontrol is 1905 and the next one is 1908 and the capital ship architecture is 1905 and the next one is 1910. So the 1905 FC and 1905 capital ships are things you already have.

BTW, nice maps.
I'll try to scribe the Parthian edge of the Mongol Wars to fit around your date ranges, as it would make sense to gang up on them

Thanks. The one thing you may have noticed that the Mongols never managed to conquer the Solovetsky Islands in the White Sea. :)

I'll have to take another look, but I'm guessing you are correct and I mucked up again.
Thanks Walter.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Walter correctly pointed out I was looking at Tech available dates in the prior post, not research available dates.
Therefore I have modified my prior arrangement.

The docks are in the same places, and I think all the ships are posted, or very close relatives thereof.
I did try to pay for the upgrades to various vessels for radio, QF guns, and Fire control, and I think I got them all.

With the additional 30,000 tons, Hulls/year >100t are 8, 8.33, 9 and 9.

I'm still working on a unifying history, making good progress.

Final Final Parthian Prebuild
Modification Points
20- 4 BP
10- +100BP Ships & Infrastructure (580 BP total)
15- +90 land (170total), +60 deployment (84 total)
2 pts : Electric Drives, Oil Fired Boilers available 1906
1 pt : Up to Historical 1910 aircraft and countermeasures, available 1910
1 pt : Night Fighting Basic tactics, Specialised nighttime acquisition Searchlight mounts, night scopes available 1910
1 pt : Centralized FC, early directors – 10km, available 1910
---
50pts

Ships : 553.364 BP
32 ships with "Capital" Architecture (6+2 DN, 6 BB, 2 CDBB, 10+4 ACR)
76 ships with "Cruiser" Architecture (24 cruisers, 8 Torpedo boat carriers, 4 ML, 12 MSW, 16 GB)
56 ships >100t with "Destroyer" architecture (24x 210t, 16x 500t, 16x 750t)
328 <100t Torpedo boats or MTBs
7 submarines
8 Fleet Support Ships

Naval Infrastructure Cost : (5+6.6+12.6+2.4) : 26.6
Drydocks :
50m : 10
110m : 6
180m : 7
240m : 1

Total : 553.364 + 26.6 = 579.964, remainder 0.046

[Walter]

Not much action going on and I kinda think that things should start moving forward...

50 modification points:
- 15 points spent on 3 BPs.
- 20 points spent on 200 BP extra naval ship and infrastructure points
- 2 points spent on 1906 Naval Propulsion tech.
- 1 point spent on 1906 Aircraft and Countermeasures tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Destroyer, Torpedo Boat, and Motor Torpedo Boat Architecture tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Rangefinding, Fire Control and Gunnery tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Night Fighting tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Torpedo tech.
- 1 point spent on 1908 Mine Warfare tech.
- 5 points spent on 50 Land (+34) and Deployment (+16) points.
- 2 points spent on 10 Fortification points.


Norse Kingdom at the start of 1910:
- 68 IC
- 27 BP
- 680 BP Ships/infrastructure
---- 616.7 BP spent on naval ships.
---- 63.3 BP spent on naval infrastructure.
- 114 Land points
- 40 Deployment points
- 50 Fortification ponts

From looking at my numbers, this should still be the same. Only minor change is how the 616.7 BPs for ships are spread among the ships due to the slight increase in tonnages of the various classes, the inclusion of refit cost for various ships, the addition of a third Selkirk class AC, the addition of the Calgacas BB and the removal of the "auxiliaries and civilian ships that occasionally support the navy".

Also I made a mistake with the previous spreadsheet I posted in the Norse ship thread where I forgot to multiply the support capacity of the various supply ship classes with the number of ships in those classes. Which is why in there a support capacity of about 250,000 tons is given and in the spreadsheet below, that value is 817,350 tons.

[snip]

Here is how the Imperial Roman Republic startup is looking right now.

50 modification points
--12 Points invested into 4 ICs
--20 Points invested into 4 BPs
--3 Points invested into 30 additional startup BPs
--2 Points invested into 20 Land Points
--2 Points invested into 10 Fortification points
--11 Points invested into the following Technologies
----2 Points invested 1906 Naval Propulsion [Avalible 1906]
----6 Points invested 1908 Destroyers [Avalible 1908]
----1 Point invested 1908 Fire Control
----1 Point invested 1908 Torpedos
----1 point invested 1906 Aircraft

Which puts my baseline as such

--72 IC
--28 BP
--510 Startup BP

With the startup BP allocated as such, detailed in the spreadsheet.

89.25 BP used on Slipways and Drydocks
420.75 BP used on Ships
--224.31 BP for Capital Ships
--113.88 BP for Cruisers
--37.71 BP for Destroyers
--45.77 BP for Auxiliaries

[Kaiser Kirk]

It's funny, looking at Walter's and Snip's setup, I'm wondering if I should be putting tons more in infrastructure.
But I have 23 docks, which can build my fleet (well, with some 1894 handwaving). About the only *need* is a floating dock, but that won't make sense until I have overseas possessions, but right now everything is within ~800nm of the Strait of Hormuz.

Alternately, I could shrink my startup fleet and have more docks/IC...and fewer obsolescent ships.

But in the meantime I'm a tad busy. Just check in from time to time.