Montego Bay - dissolution of Island Commonwealth

Borys · March 25, 2007, 03:42:27 AM

Gabi86
Posted: Feb 7 2007, 01:32 AM

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Eastern Kingdom Aircrew after attack report:
October 21st, 1904
5:50:00 hours:

participants:
Z7-A-02
Z7-A-03
Z7-A-05

X11 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Lion (TBD) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

X10 M-13GB's miss, impacting surrounding dock facilities.

Dock 13 and Dock 6 destroyed
Warehouse 9 destroyed, Warehouse 6 burns to ground by uncontrolled fires

------------------------------

5:51:32 hours:
X7 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS White Bear (TBD) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

ICS Serpent (TBD) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

X5 M-13GB's miss, landing in water

--------------------
5:52:43 hours:
X13 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Wrathful (TBD) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

ICS Jade (AUX) struck by x3 M-13GB's, ship sinks

X10 M-13GB's miss, impacting dock facilities
-------------------
5:54:13 hours:
X12 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Foresight (TBD) struck by M-13GB, ship sinks

ICS Olympos (TGB) struck by M-13GB, ship sinks

X10 M-13 GB's miss targets impacting nearby dock facilities. One of such hits a ammo depot. Massive explosions heard and seen. Massive explosion sends debris and shrapnel into nearby buildings. Dozens of buildings burn to the ground or are outright destroyed by blast. Blast also causes ICS Triton (Tender) to capsize due to blast force.

--------------------------------
5:56:23 hours:
X4 M-13TB munitions dropped

ICS Triumph (AC) struck by x1 M-13TB, ship sinks

X3 M-13TB's miss targets harmlessly

----------------------------------

5:57:19 hours:

ICS Obsidian (AUX) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

X8 M-13GB miss targets

-------------------------------------
5:59:37 hours:
X9 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Courageous (AUX) struck by x2 M-13GB, ship sinks

X8 M-13GB's miss targets, five land in water harmlessly, three impact nearby docks

-----------------------------------
6:00:51 hours:
X4 M-13TB munitions dropped

ICS Ocean (AC) struck by x1 M-13TB, ship severely damaged, scuttled by crew hours later

X3 M-13TB's miss targets

--------------------------------
6:02:37 hours:
X10 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Daring (TBD) struck by x2 M-13GB, ship sinks

X3 M-13GB's miss targets striking nearby warehouses

ICS Ferret (TBD) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

------------------------------------------
6:03:12 hours:
X5 M-13GB munitions dropped

X5 M-13GB munitions miss targets

----------------------------------------
6:04:34 hours:
X8 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Helicon (TGB) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

X7 M-13GB's miss targets
---------------------------------------
6:05:13 hours:
X5 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Ida (TGB) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

X4 M-13GB's miss, impacting nearby naval yard facilities

---------------------------------------
6:07:51 hours:
X8 M-13GT munitions dropped

ICS Warrior (AC) struck by x1 M-13TB, ship sinks

X7 M-13TB's miss or dud

--------------------------------------
6:08:29 hours:
X8 M-13GB munitions dropped

ICS Superb (AC) struck by x1 M-13GB, impact hits turret and explodes forward magazines, ship sinks

ICS Atlas (TGB) struck by x1 M-13GB, ship sinks

X6 M-13GB's miss targets
------------------------------------------
6:09:10 hours:
X4 M-13GT munitions dropped

ICS Agate (AUX) struck by x1 M-13GT, ship sinks

ICS Shark (SS) struck by x1 M-13GT, ship destroyed

X2 M-13GT's miss or dud

--------------------------------------------
Attack stops at 6:10:00

RESULTS:

It seems the IC pulled back the mainstay of the fleet to Jamaica, to get the most marines to protect the homeland.

The attack with the glide bombs and torpedo's was chaotic. A long stretch of Montego Bay was seen in flames, and at least 1 large ship is sure to be destroyed, as the magazine of a main gun mount went. This explosion damaged Z7-A-02, which wasn't capable to return home.

Z7-A-02 landed in safe territory. And is under repair.

===================

After ancedotes:

The EK is aware that several nations are combining fleets to attempt to dislodge the EK from it's current Agenda.

All x5 Z7's and the new Z4 will be comitted.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 7 2007, 01:56 AM

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Amphibious and aerial beachheads set to be established...soon.

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Earl822
Posted: Feb 7 2007, 02:21 AM

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can I ask how the EK intends to carry out amphibious assault?

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Borys
Posted: Feb 7 2007, 03:56 AM

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The Habsburg Empire condemns this cowardly attack. The EKA Minister in Vienna has been requested by the Ballplatz to present an explanation of this act.

In a separate move the Government repeated the ofer to the IC Gov't of deploying an Infanterie Brigade to assist in internal peace keeping.


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Maddox
Posted: Feb 7 2007, 11:37 AM

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Newspapers over the world write about this opening of the EK- IC war.
Some early some later.

(send in by a player)

QUOTE
Early in the morning, barely twilight.
The steady droning of 3 Zeppelins disturbed the quiet town of Montego Bay, and just a few residents grouchily rubbed their eyes when the unexpected sound roused them from sleep.
"Wha- ?"
BOOM !!
The first bomb was dropped at 5.50 am sharp. But it wasn't alone. It had friends. Quite a few of them in fact. And they held a merry party of 5.500 explosive pounds all over the port and the city.
At 5.52 am the next party arrived. With the same horrible outcome. Except for one little detail, almost minute: a munition stockpile wanted to enter the fun, and a brilliant flash was emitted by a shore magazine.
At 5.55 am there was again a salvo of the whistling disasters and this was repeated several times over in the next 20 minutes. Much to the dismay of the residents.
One fact stood out in the fray: the mighty ICS Warrior simply exploded. Not just blew up, no, it had to go in the most spectacular fashion an Armoured Cruiser of that calibre could honourably end with. When the smoke cleared and dawn arrived a new work of art could be admired in the Montego Bay: bow and stern of the Warrior sticking out of the water like man-made jagged rocks. The normally azure-blue waters were black with soot and blood. Raging fires ravaged the city. The wailing of the wounded, the eerie silence of the dead. Civilians and marines engaging the fires with desperate courage. But the damage was done.
Nothing had been seen at sea or in the air. Death came stealthy and unnoticed.
The Island Commonwealth is at war again. Not the heavy-handed Confederate States of America did this dastardly deed, they were sure, because those had been decent enough in the past to herald their attacks. Nor the profit-driven Gran Colombians must have been the culprit, for they would not damage what they could use. Therefore eyes were straining in another direction and hearts were set against the North. It could only have been the icy Kingdom of the East... cold of heart and dark of deeds.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 7 2007, 04:05 PM

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QUOTE (Borys @ Feb 7 2007, 03:56 AM)
The Habsburg Empire condemns this cowardly attack. The EKA Minister in Vienna has been requested by the Ballplatz to present an explanation of this act.

In a separate move the Government repeated the ofer to the IC Gov't of deploying an Infanterie Brigade to assist in internal peace keeping.

October, 23rd, 1904:

EK ambassador in Venice, statements:

The current objective is, forcibly removing Japanese citizens and other immigrants from prison, who have been incarcerated unjustly and unfairly.

And to remove the current police state which has been enacted upon the pleasant citizens of the Island Commonwealth. While restoring the original republic centered government to power.

Secondary objectives are to find IC political members who have been imprisoned in an effort to help reinstate the original republic.

Further, the attack is considered a police actions, thus requires no declaration of war. The current government in power enacted a police state, and is not recognized by the EK since it derived it's place of power from a coup of greed.

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swamphen
Posted: Feb 7 2007, 10:53 PM

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Hey wait I thought only Filipino ships did that...

The DKB strongly protests the actions of the Eastern Kingdom, with Kronprinz Wilhelm (still acting as Foreign Minister, at least for the time being) stating that the attack is "rather overdone" for a stated mission of freeing citizens from prison, and that "military conflicts between sovereign nation-states are Acts of War, not "police actions", and are therefore bound by the Laws of War.

Meanwhile OKW quickly draws up plans for airships - and defenses against them.

While the Reich does not provide or promise assistance overtly to the Island Commonwealth, the Reich's ambassador in Cromwell does offer a line of credit...

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 8 2007, 12:20 AM

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QUOTE (swamphen @ Feb 7 2007, 10:53 PM)
Hey wait I thought only Filipino ships did that...

The DKB strongly protests the actions of the Eastern Kingdom, with Kronprinz Wilhelm (still acting as Foreign Minister, at least for the time being) stating that the attack is "rather overdone" for a stated mission of freeing citizens from prison, and that "military conflicts between sovereign nation-states are Acts of War, not "police actions", and are therefore bound by the Laws of War.

Meanwhile OKW quickly draws up plans for airships - and defenses against them.

While the Reich does not provide or promise assistance overtly to the Island Commonwealth, the Reich's ambassador in Cromwell does offer a line of credit...

It is a police action when the original government was overthrown via a military coup.

The nation is no longer sovereign.

Borys · March 25, 2007, 03:42:36 AM

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 8 2007, 10:42 PM

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Diary of a commonwealth marine stationed at Montego Bay
12 Noon'
November 3, 1904:

Montego Bay II

Professional salvage crews had just begun to arrive on the scene of Montego bay. And now they heard something peculiar. Droning...roaring...the sound of...propellers spinning at high revolution.

And suddenly, they saw it. Dozens of zeppelins coming over the horizon. Then the bombs fell. These were directed away from the city, towards fortified areas within the bay where marines had taken root. The marines and salvage crews all knew...this was the end. Because the majority of the IC fleet had pulled back to Jamaica, there was no hope of reinorcements. No hope for anything at all...except for no suffering in the end.

Commonwealth troops trewn in the air by the explosions. Smoke arouse, as if a mistbank came forth from the earth itself.

Confusion ensued. Fires once again ravaged the naval port, but strangely the city was not targetted. The salvage crews fled in terror, they weren't soldiers...they had no reason to be there. But oh...those of us who were and did...may some greater power have mercy on us.

The smoke rose into the sky, created foggy conditions...resembling pea soup, thus rendering visability close to zero.

The explosions were unceasing. And the droning became louder and louder. I looked up...and saw the sun high above...hazed over by this smoke which clouded my vision . The smoke drifted, like small black and grey clouds across the sky...dimming the sun from our positions on the ground.

Finally...the droning was deafening. And a giant airship flew just a hundred feet over our heads. The giant airborn monster...as it were. Blocked out the skies, everything was black on the ground...underneath it. And it was not alone...but the explosions momentarilly stopped. Then gunfire ensued. The propellers of multiple airships blew the smoke around in gusty storms. As if a black blizzard had descended.

The wind was fierce, and zeppelins were everywhere. We started to fire on them, but troops came raining down...into the water. Onto building tops. Into empty yards...and into alleyways. We could see them coming downward, but once on the ground the smoke made it difficult to see.

But they could see us as they rappelled down. We could see...Eastern Kingdom emblems emblazened on them. They were all around us...and yet I sat composed. As my troops fought and died in confusion, I alone...was composed.

We lost our footholds, we had to retreat. They had now started grouping together...and fought us in small groups. We abandoned our fortifications, since they were everywhere...especially places we couldn't see. The Zeppelins kept coming, we actually shot down a small blimp...but it was a minor victory. The larger rigid derigibles went un-hindered by bullet holes and gunfire.

By the time six hours had passed, they controlled all the fortifications in the bay...there had to have been 1000's of troops landed. Hundred of zeppelins buzzed and roared above...like angry malicious giant bumble Bee's. Flying all over the city, as if difusing throughout it's overhead skies.

The onslaught was unheard of...like death from above. They had an aerial beachhead...I had never heard of such a thing. Who knew...they could land an invasion from their air. Death from anove, indeed. We were unprepared. We were defeated.

Now we lie in small pockets around the city. They had started engaging in urban warfare against us.

We had little chance. By the time 9 hours has passed, we had killed at least five thousand of them...but we had lost a full half of our forces. And were now scattered about the city. And by midnight that night...they had to be nearing 10 000's of troops landed. We had lost two thirds of our regiments and the fierce street to street fighting.

Airships roaring...the roaring never ended. So much worse than explosions or gunfire.

I got some sleep around Midnight...but very little was restful. Between gunfire and explosions.

I had awful dreams. I dreamt that giant insects buzzed through the skies...things like bee's, wasps, locusts and preying mantis. They landed...and were eating my men...raw and whole like giant carnivirous...insects, of a foreign kind we knew nothing of. The shadows of the giant insects freigntened me...and thats when I awoke. The shadows of airships passing overhead...and smoke and haze drifting through the streets.

By the next morning, we were discussing surrendering. Sometimes the best option, is to walk away while still able to do so. What would the next hours hold for us?

Sincerely,
Island Common Wealth Marine Forces,
-Erwin Delawek

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P3D
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 12:10 AM

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Er...

15000 EK troops? HUNDREDs of zeppelins? Ans might I ask you what route did they take? Over the UKA or Rohan and CSA, flying over two weeks to get there? Did you manage to rent four or five passenger liners three months ago to get them steaming around Cape Horn just in time? blink.gif
Even if it is one magnitude less, you cannot really supply so many troops, or have so many civilian zeppelins, even if they cost nothing in the game.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 12:21 AM

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QUOTE (P3D @ Feb 9 2007, 12:10 AM)
Er...

15000 EK troops? HUNDREDs of zeppelins? Ans might I ask you what route did they take? Over the UKA or Rohan and CSA, flying over two weeks to get there? Did you manage to rent four or five passenger liners three months ago to get them steaming around Cape Horn just in time? blink.gif
Even if it is one magnitude less, you cannot really supply so many troops, or have so many civilian zeppelins, even if they cost nothing in the game.

2 weeks?

It takes 2.77 days to get there. Airships fly at about 50 kts. The blimps and semirigids closer to 43 kts. The slowest go 39 kts. So...3.5 days.

The entire economy and transportation network is zeppelin powered. maddox's idea actually. Other nations built railroads. I built airships.

And I have flyover rights from both Rohan and the CSA

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Ithekro
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 12:46 AM

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OOC:

Also we might consider that this is written from the Commonwealth's marine's point of view and could be a bit exaggerated. Its not like anyone in the Caribbean has ever seen an airship before, or if they have it was one for commerce from the far off Eastern Kingdom. Anything over probably five will seem like "hundreds" after the fact to make it seem like one lost to superior numbers rather then simple fear. As for 15,000 troops, essentially the Eastern Kindgom is landing a corps or half-corps equivalent I'm guessing using whatever airships and blimps they can get their hands on. That a lot of flying things going down by way of the Rockys.

Just curious as to how to fit all these men and there gear into these airships (as most of the volume is gas bags and ballast) Also reminds me of the other question I had...where do they store and how do they launched all those glide weapons?

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 01:11 AM

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QUOTE (Ithekro @ Feb 9 2007, 12:46 AM)
OOC:

Also we might consider that this is written from the Commonwealth's marine's point of view and could be a bit exaggerated. Its not like anyone in the Caribbean has ever seen an airship before, or if they have it was one for commerce from the far off Eastern Kingdom. Anything over probably five will seem like "hundreds" after the fact to make it seem like one lost to superior numbers rather then simple fear. As for 15,000 troops, essentially the Eastern Kindgom is landing a corps or half-corps equivalent I'm guessing using whatever airships and blimps they can get their hands on. That a lot of flying things going down by way of the Rockys.

Just curious as to how to fit all these men and there gear into these airships (as most of the volume is gas bags and ballast) Also reminds me of the other question I had...where do they store and how do they launched all those glide weapons?

The civilian airships dont have weapons.

The initial attacks throughout the story were initiated by military airships that were mixed in with the cargo vessels.

The glide weapons can either by dropped out of a bay (they'd be stacked) or dropped from Keel racks, if it's a military zeppelin.

And it probably was exaggerated. But not by much.

As for cargo capacity.

All cargo would be carried in gondolas that recede into the gas envelope. A CZ7 has 2 gondolas, with 5 cargo decks, each 15 meters by 10 meters roughly.

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Borys
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 05:50 AM

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Total hogwash.
Some figures.
The Hindenburg carried some 130 people (crew + passanger) after removing the piano. A more frugal version could carry 200 infantry + crew. That is 5 Hindenburgs for a thousand troops. A Hindenburg cost c. 6 million Reichsmarks. Let's discount the piano to get 5 million, a nice round figure.
A contemporary light cruiser cost 40, and a heavy cruiser cost 80.
So, ferry capacity for 1000 costs 25 million RM. 10000 men = 250 million. 15000 men = 375 million. The equivalent of 4 or 5 Armoured Cruisers. And this is for transport Zeppelins alone. How much do the "military ones" cost?

All HBPs and MBPs aside, can the EK afford to build and maintain 8 Armounred cruisers? IMO it simply cannot.

To me this "invasion" is as plausible as dragons and pegasi ferrying geisha cavalry on unicorns to the Carribean.

I will ignore all further Alien Space Bat quality zeppelin and EK posts.

Borys


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Maddox
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 06:06 AM

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It is the report of a terrified IC marine. Exaturated, very well possible. Accurate and to the point, not by a long shot.

Gabi, I editted your posting, as I asked you to do.....

P3D

QUOTE
Non military capable airships don't count towards the military budgets. If such airships are used for war, they are very vurnable and won't have any positive effect on that war.

Militarized airships do count into the upkeep budget, and the conversion follows the pricetag and disadvantages of AMC conversions from freighters.

If the Eastern Kingdom did what the poor marine tells, the world had know 2 days in advance, as the massive airfleet of the EK would have passed 2 large countries.

Also, it would have taken the full airfleet, up to steampowered homebuild baloons in the EK.

The effect on the domestic markets would be devastating. Imagine every car, van truck, lorry and horse and carriage of a country commandeerd and put into military use.

"Ich möchte mein Fahrrad zurück"

to demonstrate what the Nazi's did to The Netherlands when running from the allies. It now is a joke, but the first decades after WW II it was deadly serious.

Borys · March 25, 2007, 03:43:19 AM

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Posted: Feb 9 2007, 07:17 AM

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OOC

Gabi86, for your information, this is the N-verse, not Crimson Skies.

tongue.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif

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Borys
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 07:28 AM

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OOC
Don't the Dutch fotball fans still chant "we want our bicicles back" when the game is against Germany?

Borys

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 09:11 AM

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QUOTE (Borys @ Feb 9 2007, 05:50 AM)
OOC
Total hogwash.
Some figures.
The Hindenburg carried some 130 people (crew + passanger) after removing the piano. A more frugal version could carry 200 infantry + crew. That is 5 Hindenburgs for a thousand troops. A Hindenburg cost c. 6 million Reichsmarks. Let's discount the piano to get 5 million, a nice round figure.
A contemporary light cruiser cost 40, and a heavy cruiser cost 80.
So, ferry capacity for 1000 costs 25 million RM. 10000 men = 250 million. 15000 men = 375 million. The equivalent of 4 or 5 Armoured Cruisers. And this is for transport Zeppelins alone. How much do the "military ones" cost?

All HBPs and MBPs aside, can the EK afford to build and maintain 8 Armounred cruisers? IMO it simply cannot.

To me this "invasion" is as plausible as dragons and pegasi ferrying geisha cavalry on unicorns to the Carribean.

I will ignore all further Alien Space Bat quality zeppelin and EK posts.

Borys

Not, not hogwash.

You just don't understand the numbers.

Come back when you're smarter on the issue.

And you dont even know the facts your trying to spout. It carried 190 passengers AND crew. DUH.

And it had a dining level, a smoking room, a bar, and numerous other facilities. Need I say more?

I probably do. Since you don't know when to stop.

The sleeping berths alone weighed 20,000 lbs. Not counting day seating and bathing facilities. Thats 100 more people right there.

Still not counting food and supplies carried.

Your arguement is stillborne. go figure.

And borys...you're not nearly as smart as you think yourself to be.

Too bad for you, the invasion suceeded. Or too bad for Austria I should say.

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Borys
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 09:19 AM

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OOC
Wikipedia puts it at 61 crew and 72 passangers after rebuilt. c.130. If they are wrong, and it was 190, it still doesn't make much dent in my estimates.

QUOTE
And it had a dining level, a smoking room, a bar, and numerous other facilities. Need I say more?

You have some sort of retractable gondolas, don't you? That's weight again.

And you need to carry food and ammo for those troops, and that's weight and space again - or do they eat and fire wishfull thinking of their mistress?
50 pounds per head is an infantryman's kit. More or less the luggage allowance.

At the end of day I might be 25% off - that it is 250 infantry per zeppelin - which doesn't change the fact that the EK still can't afford all that.

Borys

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 09:22 AM

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QUOTE (Maddox @ Feb 9 2007, 06:06 AM)
It is the report of a terrified IC marine. Exaturated, very well possible. Accurate and to the point, not by a long shot.

Gabi, I editted your posting, as I asked you to do.....

P3D

QUOTE
Non military capable airships don't count towards the military budgets. If such airships are used for war, they are very vurnable and won't have any positive effect on that war.

Militarized airships do count into the upkeep budget, and the conversion follows the pricetag and disadvantages of AMC conversions from freighters.

If the Eastern Kingdom did what the poor marine tells, the world had know 2 days in advance, as the massive airfleet of the EK would have passed 2 large countries.

Also, it would have taken the full airfleet, up to steampowered homebuild baloons in the EK.

The effect on the domestic markets would be devastating. Imagine every car, van truck, lorry and horse and carriage of a country commandeerd and put into military use.

"Ich möchte mein Fahrrad zurück"

to demonstrate what the Nazi's did to The Netherlands when running from the allies. It now is a joke, but the first decades after WW II it was deadly serious.

With all due respect,

No it wouldn't.

That'd be absurd.

If you have a nation of 8 million people. And your economy is airpowered. You'd have to have 50,000 to 100,000 airships of varying sizes. Most being small...maybe around 5,000 m/3.

Think about it. No railroads? That means millions of tons of cargo need to be transported through the air. Plus passengers need to go from one place to another as well.

And Borys flapped his jaws again saying it'd be too expensive. Well...

in todays dollars (2004) railroads cost 180 dollars a foot, using recycled steel tracks! A 180 dollars a foot? You get that right? $946,080 a mile!

If the United states had 200 million miles of railroad track by 1920, imagine the cost. It's in the vicinity of 100+ trillion dollars.

Thats why it was subsidized. Big companys owned all the rails. It'd be impossible to spend 100 trillion dollars in a span from 1830 to 1920. The airships must be the same way.

So yeah, I'm not always right, but I know what I'm talking about.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 09:25 AM

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QUOTE (Borys @ Feb 9 2007, 09:19 AM)
OOC
Wikipedia puts it at 61 crew and 72 passangers after rebuilt. c.130. If they are wrong, and it was 190, it still doesn't make much dent in my estimates.

QUOTE
And it had a dining level, a smoking room, a bar, and numerous other facilities. Need I say more?

You have some sort of retractable gondolas, don't you? That's weight again.

And you need to carry food and ammo for those troops, and that's weight and space again - or do they eat and fire wishfull thinking of their mistress?
50 pounds per head is an infantryman's kit. More or less the luggage allowance.

At the end of day I might be 25% off - that it is 250 infantry per zeppelin - which doesn't change the fact that the EK still can't afford all that.

Borys

Fine. I missread it.

Doesn't change anything.

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Borys
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 09:33 AM

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Ahoj!
If you have a nation of 8 million people. And your economy is airpowered.

Your economy is small. Pack donkey transport.

So yeah, I'm not always right, but I know what I'm talking about.
Yeah?
Tell us all about it.

Borys

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Ithekro
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 10:14 AM

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OOC:

One thing that makes us tired is player bickering. Solution, make a drawing and figure a way to make it work. If it can't be done (as oppose to it wasn't done), then another solution needs to be found. What would be the most helpful thing in the world is the one thing I can't find...a diagram of a Great War era Zepplin showing how the internal arrangement was laid out. If they can carry as much as they did, they didn't do it in the gondolas. 1930s design Zepplins were much more expensive than Great War airships, probably due to the global economy, specialized materials, and the luxury status of the airships. A ulitarian model should be cheaper. A military model would be more expensive only in terms of its armaments and quality of materials and engines, depending on the differences in the construction materials (if any) between civilian and military airships.

But what we need are facts for Great War era airships, not the later ships.

With the leaps and bounds, I actually want to see if I can counter these airships in the future with a certain pirate "airship" known as the Queen Emeraldas.

Borys · March 25, 2007, 03:43:29 AM

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 02:42 PM

Hegemon
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QUOTE (Borys @ Feb 9 2007, 09:33 AM)
Ahoj!
If you have a nation of 8 million people. And your economy is airpowered.

Your economy is small. Pack donkey transport.

So yeah, I'm not always right, but I know what I'm talking about.
Yeah?
Tell us all about it.

Borys

I would tell you about it...but evidently you're not well versed enough in the subject to understand.

But okay, lets disect your arguement.

A.) You used the Hidenberg as an example.

1A.) You make the claim of 130 people. Versus the number for my transports.

2A.) But you failed to recognize the cabins plus the sleeping berths. Plus the wash rooms, plus the dining room, plus the bar, plus the smoking room.

3A.) Plus the furniture in the dining room, and the furniture in the bar, and the furniture in the lounge's.

4A.) As some sort of joke you mention the piano. The piano is a joke. Compared to all the funiture in all the main areas of the ship? Don't make me laugh.

5A.) Don't forget luggage, supplies and countless other criteria.

B.) You claim that theres a correlation between the hindenberg carrying 200 troops. Which is bull.

1B.) The dining hall would still be there, and all the other ship areas.

2B.) The Hindenberg would actually carry closer to 500 if optimized to carry troops. Desertfox once asked me to sim it out. And it came out of planebuilder very close to the actual hindenberg.

3B.) So your correlation is actually very weak.

C.) You claimed that it would take 5 hindenbergs to carry 1000 troops if LZ-139 could carry 200 troops.

1C.) My actual operation utlized an opening wave of:

x3 CZ-13's=1200 troops @ 400 each
x15 CZ7's= 2250@ 150 each
x21 CZ-10's= 2415@ 115 each

=5865 within the first drop which spanned about 3 hours

Alltogether I had 28 CZ7's, now I have 26 CZ7's.

2C.) The correlation between all your main points ceases to exist.

D.) No, there are no retractable gondola's. The gondola is rescessed into the envelope so it's partially envelloped. It doesn't move.

And your other response was so spazmatic I'm gonna quote it:

QUOTE
And you need to carry food and ammo for those troops, and that's weight and space again - or do they eat and fire wishfull thinking of their mistress?
50 pounds per head is an infantryman's kit. More or less the luggage allowance.

A.) A pack is 50 lbs. Assuming the weight of an average japanese male at this era was about 150 lbs (and it was, roughly) thats 200 lbs. Which I accounted for. Furthermore, I undercompensated. The trip is 3333 miles according to Maddox. Which is 6666 miles roundtrip.

1A.) That uses miles, not Nautical Miles. My ships have a range of 10,000 NM. Therefore the lift would actually be greater.

2A.) So theres around 5,000 lbs of fuel that the airship doesn't have to carry. And I didn't bother to increase the payload capacity accordingly. Assuming an emergency range of 1000 NM.

3A.) Once again, your arguement falls apart. Just because you can't immediately see all the facts, doesn't mean you should irritate people.

4A.) Pack donkey transport? No, you're thinking of Austria's sorry steam engine transport.

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P3D
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 03:35 PM

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50lbs pack is a light infantry load without ammo and supplies. assuming 2kg of and another 2 kg/day of ammo (to make sure) for 15 days is 60 kg/man
you have an extra 60kg per man, an you still have no artillery. That would give you 300t extra weight. And you cannot live on the land.

Now airships also require repairs. A favourable guess is 2 hours maintenance for each hour spent in the air (i think it is more than that). So a 7000 mile roundtrip at 50mph is 140 hours, say 6 days. That means another 12 days spent in repair in average, with the next return trip arriving in 18 days.

Artillery:
Have 24 75mm artillery@1t, ~25t, ammo say another 25t

That 350t itself reqiures 35 cargo airships @10t each.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 03:44 PM

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QUOTE (P3D @ Feb 9 2007, 03:35 PM)
50lbs pack is a light infantry load without ammo and supplies. assuming 2kg of and another 2 kg/day of ammo (to make sure) for 15 days is 60 kg/man
you have an extra 60kg per man, an you still have no artillery. That would give you 300t extra weight. And you cannot live on the land.

Now airships also require repairs. A favourable guess is 2 hours maintenance for each hour spent in the air (i think it is more than that). So a 7000 mile roundtrip at 50mph is 140 hours, say 6 days. That means another 12 days spent in repair in average, with the next return trip arriving in 18 days.

Artillery:
Have 24 75mm artillery@1t, ~25t, ammo say another 25t

That 350t itself reqiures 35 cargo airships @10t each.

No, more like....

Maintenence would be more like 1 hour 30 mins for a inspection, 3 to 5 hours for patching if needed. Engine maintenence...about 2 hours for minor work. 12 hours for moderate work. 21 hours for severe work, like rebuilds.

All rought estimating.

And there is no artillery.

I dont know how you think i'd get it on the ground when people are shooting at the airships.

Don't need it anyways. I have Close In Air Support. lol.

Once the way is clear, then I can bring artillery. Artillery would be carried all by itself. Because it's so heavy.

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Borys
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 04:07 PM

Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
I did use the piano as a joke, as shorthand for posh fittings.
Appology for LZ 139, I meant LZ 129. The Hindenburg is the commercial name given to the LZ 129.
Let us go back to our only tangible piece - the OTL Hindenburg.

Luggage = kit, no savings here.
Food for longer crossing is replaced with food for landed trops, no savings here.
Ripped out wash basins and part of the toilets - or were these all ripped out and they all piss and shit over the railing? (hehe, interesting addition to the history of the Riddemark - EK soldier droppings on the roof of the Meduselde) - that is replaced with extra ammo beyond that carried as part of kit, again no savings.
Ripped out posh fittings - here you have weight savings, but these are consumed by the extra men. And a man weights not only his 150 pounds +50 pound kit, but also his share of the carried post-landing supplies and amunition, plus the extra food and water and fuel to heat that food during the journey. Or do they chew on cold rice cakes? This makes the weight of each and every carried trooper much more than 200 pounds. With 200 men, a simple item - greatcoat - makes for half a ton difference in weight.

You are of course again lying that I did not take the weight savings into account. I wrote that a "Hinderburgeresque" zeppelin would carry 200 infantry. That figure - 200 - is infantry. So I did not include the crew, which made up almost half of the original 130 people. So I am crediting such "leaner" Hindenburgs with some 250-260 people carrying capacity. You throw out the bar, OK, you save some weight. But you have to expand the galley, as now you have 200 blokes, not 70, to cook for. And carry more food for them. And water. And fuel to cook it. Every 200 pounds removed does not equal another trooper carried.

Hindenburg carrying close to 500 men? Maybe, I don't know enough about zeppelins to say yay or nay to that. I'd say maybe, although more than tripling of the capacity, giving the weight constraints of the vessel seems fishy. I believe my gestimate of c. 250 is plausible. Your "close to 500" I disbelieve.

Your CZ-13 has troop carrying capacity of 400? So that makes it at the very least a Hindenburg equivalent, although probaly a Super Hindenburg. Thus the price tag of at least "one sixth of a 8000 ton light cruiser", if not better, stands.

So the "invasion" is just under 6000 men, armed with rifles?

Borys

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Borys
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 04:11 PM

Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
http://mike.whybark.com/archives/images/h80769.jpg

Found a drawing. But sadly not of the gondolas 'n stuff.

More piccies:
http://www.ciderpresspottery.com/ZLA/fromr...lvault/eds.html

Even more piccies:
http://www.ciderpresspottery.com/ZLA/great...Hindenburg.html
Borys

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 04:25 PM

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QUOTE
Luggage = kit, no savings here.
Food for longer crossing is replaced with food for landed trops, no savings here.
Ripped out wash basins and part of the toilets - or were these all ripped out and they all piss and shit over the railing? (hehe, interesting addition to the history of the Riddemark - EK soldier droppings on the roof of the Meduselde) - that is replaced with extra ammo beyond that carried as part of kit, again no savings.
Ripped out posh fittings - here you have weight savings, but these are consumed by the extra men. And a man weights not only his 150 pounds +50 pound kit, but also his share of the carried post-landing supplies and amunition, plus the extra food and water and fuel to heat that food during the journey. Or do they chew on cold rice cakes? This makes the weight of each and every carried trooper much more than 200 pounds. With 200 men, a simple item - greatcoat - makes for half a ton difference in weight.

That is incorrect. The food wouldn't be the same. The hindenberg had 4 star dining. Meaning at least 3 courses, easy. Troops can be fed on rations that come from cans or other dry goods. Passengers don't want canned food and dry goods, they want meat, wine, beer, fancy soups. You name it.

Not to mention, supplies would be brought in on other airships. The troops just carry enough to live on for about 24 to 36 hours if eating regular portioned meals. Further food is brought by cargo airships strictly carrying supplies. Why try to mix payloads when theres no benefits?

QUOTE
You are of course again lying that I did not take the weight savings into account. I wrote that a "Hinderburgeresque" zeppelin would carry 200 infantry. That figure - 200 - is infantry. So I did not include the crew, which made up almost half of the original 130 people. So I am crediting such "leaner" Hindenburgs with some 250-260 people carrying capacity. You throw out the bar, OK, you save some weight. But you have to expand the galley, as now you have 200 blokes, not 70, to cook for. And carry more food for them. And water. And fuel to cook it. Every 200 pounds removed does not equal another trooper carried.

No, not lying.

You just didn't do a very good job.

Furthermore troops don't need cooking. Which is why cargo zeppelins don't have galleys. They can be sustained on canned goods. Or the equivalent of that time. Better rations would be provided once on the ground, where supplies could be more easily distributed and organized.

QUOTE
Hindenburg carrying close to 500 men? Maybe, I don't know enough about zeppelins to say yay or nay to that. I'd say maybe, although more than tripling of the capacity, giving the weight constraints of the vessel seems fishy. I believe my gestimate of c. 250 is plausible. Your "close to 500" I disbelieve.

I respect your opinion.

QUOTE
Your CZ-13 has troop carrying capacity of 400? So that makes it at the very least a Hindenburg equivalent, although probaly a Super Hindenburg. Thus the price tag of at least "one sixth of a 8000 ton light cruiser", if not better, stands.

It's an 80,000 m/3. Achieved by cheating. It's a tandem airship.

Full load Flight ceiling is something like 1500 ft.

The tandem fusalages would double the cargo decks. 5 in each fuselage. Plus the center rigging.

Actual payload at 10,000 NM is 79,597 lbs. So i rounded that to 80,000 and that was the payload.

It also included 1,000 lbs of user equipment so probably 1,000 lbs of food and supplies. Plus the original provision of 50 lb kits per troop. So they'd be pretty squished in there.

QUOTE
So the "invasion" is just under 6000 men, armed with rifles?

Borys

Rifles and various type of heavy infantry weapons.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 9 2007, 04:42 PM

Hegemon
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And if anyone is gonna moan and groan about a tandem airship.

my answer? who cares. I could simply substitute 8 Z7's, which the tandems are built from.

I just like to make things interesting with ideas that were never physically tried.

Borys · March 25, 2007, 03:44:15 AM

Borys
Posted: Feb 10 2007, 04:03 AM

Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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QUOTE (Gabi86 @ Feb 9 2007, 11:25 PM)

Rifles and various type of heavy infantry weapons.

OOC
Ahoj!
Such as ... ?

Borys

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Ithekro
Posted: Feb 10 2007, 10:04 PM

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I'd almost consider suggesting to Swamphen to send a force to the Island Commonwealth to take it over and rename it "Freedonia". biggrin.gif

Maybe that needs to be someplace where is might have a land enemy...near "Sylvania". wink.gif

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swamphen
Posted: Feb 11 2007, 11:08 AM

Großeadmiral Sumpfhühn
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QUOTE (Ithekro @ Feb 10 2007, 10:04 PM)
I'd almost consider suggesting to Swamphen to send a force to the Island Commonwealth to take it over and rename it "Freedonia". biggrin.gif

These are the laws of my administration
No one's allowed to smoke
Or tell a dirty joke
And whistling is forbidden
If chewing gum is chewed
The chewer is pursued
And in the hoosegow hidden
If any form of pleasure is exhibited
Report to me and it will be prohibited
I'll put my foot down, so shall it be
This is the land of the free
The last man nearly ruined this place
He didn't know what to do with it
If you think this country's bad off now
Just wait 'til I get through with it

The country's taxes must be fixed
And I know what to do with it
If you think you're paying too much now
Just wait 'til I get through with it

I will not stand for anything that's crooked or unfair
I'm strictly on the up and up
So everyone beware
If anyone's caught taking graft
And I don't get my share
We stand 'em up against the wall
And pop goes the weasel...

happy.gif

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Ithekro
Posted: Feb 11 2007, 02:46 PM

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So sayeth Fearless Leader Rufus T. Firefly...long may be reign. biggrin.gif

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 10:42 PM

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Peace arrangements made.

November 10th, 1904:

EK signs peace with Gran Columbia.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 10:54 PM

Hegemon
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QUOTE (Borys @ Feb 10 2007, 04:03 AM)
QUOTE (Gabi86 @ Feb 9 2007, 11:25 PM)

Rifles and various type of heavy infantry weapons.

OOC
Ahoj!
Such as ... ?

Borys

user posted image

Gatling guns as a heavy infantry support weapons

user posted image

and the ever popular rapid fire gun developed during the American Civil War.

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P3D
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 10:58 PM

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Insurgencies has a tendency to be crushed unless lacking outside support.

In Vietnam the French were powerless (they could not fight two major insurgencies at the same time). The US of A was reluctant to use its full power against the North, fighting with one hand tied back. No strategic bombing etc.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:08 PM

Hegemon
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QUOTE (P3D @ Feb 13 2007, 10:58 PM)
Insurgencies has a tendency to be crushed unless lacking outside support.

In Vietnam the French were powerless (they could not fight two major insurgencies at the same time). The US of A was reluctant to use its full power against the North, fighting with one hand tied back. No strategic bombing etc.

Oh yea?

You mean just like Iraq? Mission accomplished. time to go home?

Strategic bombing?

Well, then what do you call Operation Linebacker? Is that your idea of tactical bombing? lol.

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Desertfox
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:21 PM

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Operation Linebacker was much to late, happening in 1972, had it happen in 1967 it would have suceeded, but by 1972 the Viet Cong where too strong.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:25 PM

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QUOTE (Desertfox @ Feb 13 2007, 11:21 PM)
Operation Linebacker was much to late, happening in 1972, had it happen in 1967 it would have suceeded, but by 1972 the Viet Cong where too strong.

The Viet Cong was the group based in South Vietnam.

Not the army of the north.

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P3D
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:25 PM

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QUOTE (Gabi86 @ Feb 13 2007, 08:08 PM)

Strategic bombing?
Well, then what do you call Operation Linebacker? Is that your idea of tactical bombing? lol.

Operation Linebacker is a half-hearted attempt. Yo do not start a strategic bombing campaign in the 13rd year of a war. Moreover, what would you expect having only a token amount of troops on the ground?

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:31 PM

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QUOTE (P3D @ Feb 13 2007, 11:25 PM)
QUOTE (Gabi86 @ Feb 13 2007, 08:08 PM)

Strategic bombing?
Well, then what do you call Operation Linebacker? Is that your idea of tactical bombing? lol.

Operation Linebacker is a half-hearted attempt. Yo do not start a strategic bombing campaign in the 13rd year of a war. Moreover, what would you expect having only a token amount of troops on the ground?

At the highest point the U.S had half a million troops in Vietnam. If thats a token..well...lol.

Strategic bombing wouldn't stop an army that crawled its way through tunnels and along trails.

Ever heard of Dien Bien Phu? They didn't need factories or airfields to fight the US. They could wage guerilla warfare.

Besides, they had fought China for 1000 years prior to this. So it's not like killing them was gonna bring them to the table to negotiate.

You know Harry Kissinger? He ever stated that the US never could have won the war.

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Desertfox
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:39 PM

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But Strategic Bombing could have stopped the flow of supplies at their start. A Linebacker II style campaign in 1967 would have force North Vietnam to stop supplying the Viet Cong, putting a serious dent into the Viet Cong's ability to wage war.

And you can win a against Guerillas, the British did it in Malaya.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:47 PM

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too bad we aren't talking about malaya.

but i mean, obviously your far more educated on the subject than Harry Kissinger.

...and this is the point where the whole world explodes...because desertfox says so. boom.

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P3D
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:49 PM

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Sigh...

Diem Bien Phu involved the French, not the US. ROTFLMAO.
When the Nguyen Hue offensive was launched (which triggered Operation Linebacker) there was around 10000 US troops in South Vietnam. Not the 500,000 you imply.
Why drop bombs on a trail and tunnles when you could as easily destroy North Vietnamese infrastructure. Starting with airports and harbors through which supplies arrive, then make sure that the only way North Vietnam can move ammo to the South is on foot and by bicycle.
Supplying the Viet Kong is one thing. Supplying the PAVN is another.
NTM the Viet Kong essentially managed to expend itself in the Tet offensive. The war eventually was won by the PAVN. not the Viet Kong. Not the insurgency but the outside support.

Why is it that the US only loses wars when not fully committed?

Borys · March 25, 2007, 03:44:44 AM

Gabi86
Posted: Feb 13 2007, 11:56 PM

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QUOTE (P3D @ Feb 13 2007, 11:49 PM)
Sigh...

Diem Bien Phu involved the French, not the US. ROTFLMAO.
When the Nguyen Hue offensive was launched (which triggered Operation Linebacker) there was around 10000 US troops in South Vietnam. Not the 500,000 you imply.
Why drop bombs on a trail and tunnles when you could as easily destroy North Vietnamese infrastructure. Starting with airports and harbors through which supplies arrive, then make sure that the only way North Vietnam can move ammo to the South is on foot and by bicycle.
Supplying the Viet Kong is one thing. Supplying the PAVN is another.
NTM the Viet Kong essentially managed to expend itself in the Tet offensive. The war eventually was won by the PAVN. not the Viet Kong. Not the insurgency but the outside support.

Why is it that the US only loses wars when not fully committed?

Nice that you've had your laugh.

I wasn't saying it was a US operation.

It was a french operation. You see, I'm taking History of Vietnam as one of my electives this semester. So I can tell you all about it

Diem Bien Phu was a air supplied campaign. The French swore that the base they had built was insurmountable. They swore the vietnamese would never get artillery there. But of course the french were wrong. The Vietnamese did get their guns up the mountains. And guess what? They surrounded the French, set up AA emplacements. And dug trenches! Eventually they overtook the French. yes, the vietnamese with their bicycles and many soldiers pulled artillery pieces up the hill sides and smashed the french to pieces.

The point being that Diem Bien Phu fell. And the French made the move to talk peace. The Ginneva Accords.

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Ithekro
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:04 AM

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It has been suggested that the United States could have won the war had the miltary plans in the earliest of days (back when Senator John Kennedy was talking about Loas) and invade the North sometime between 1959 and 1965..I'm not sure of the dates involved with our operations in Loas, but the army personel involved think they could have taken the place (they had more than enough intel at the time), but instead we waited and got involved in trying to stop an insurgency in the south (when our help wasn't asked for...only our money and equimpent). By 1969 there were no Viet Con in Vietnam...our people were fighting the North Vietnamese Army. (I got enough vets in my ear to be able to get information).

As for a insurgency on an island...how are they going to get supplies, training, and outside help? They don't have any borders to cross, I don't think people are going to swim over. Boats maybe. Airships are a little large to hide.

(The French built in a stupid place...the bottom of a valley)

As for stopping traffic, that was part of the job of most of the services over there. My father did border partol near Cambodia in the Navy (PBR duty). They were still trying to cut supplies to the North Vietnamese even in 1970.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:06 AM

Hegemon
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QUOTE (P3D @ Feb 13 2007, 11:49 PM)
Sigh...

Diem Bien Phu involved the French, not the US. ROTFLMAO.
When the Nguyen Hue offensive was launched (which triggered Operation Linebacker) there was around 10000 US troops in South Vietnam. Not the 500,000 you imply.
Why drop bombs on a trail and tunnles when you could as easily destroy North Vietnamese infrastructure. Starting with airports and harbors through which supplies arrive, then make sure that the only way North Vietnam can move ammo to the South is on foot and by bicycle.
Supplying the Viet Kong is one thing. Supplying the PAVN is another.
NTM the Viet Kong essentially managed to expend itself in the Tet offensive. The war eventually was won by the PAVN. not the Viet Kong. Not the insurgency but the outside support.

Why is it that the US only loses wars when not fully committed?

Oh btw, i missed a point.

I said at its peak, not during Operation Linebacker.

A the peak of the Vietnam war, I stand corrected:

543,482
Peak troop strength in Vietnam, April 30, 1969

I never said it was during Operation Linebacker. But see, Desertfox made it seem as though troop strength would have made a difference. I say no, it wouldnt. Furthermore Operation Linebacker was not the first bombing campaign. it was simply the most intense. The US conducted bombing before Johnson declared a halt to bombing in i think...1968. Nixon reinstated bombing.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:11 AM

Hegemon
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Not fully comitted?

lets review those numbers!

8,740,654
Number of Vietnam Era Veterans. (Active duty Aug. 5, 1964 – March 28, 1973 or in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964)

2,594,000
Actually served in-country 1964 - 1973

50,000
Served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964

58,148
Americans were killed or MIA.

304,704
wounded.

3,403,100
Personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China sea waters).

1,000,000 to 1,600,000
Fought in combat, provided close support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack.

543,482
Peak troop strength in Vietnam, April 30, 1969

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P3D
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:13 AM

Hegemon
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And my point is that South Vietnam was defeated in a conventional operation, not by guerilla warfare. And Diem Bien Phu wasn't guerilla warfare either. Assymetric, yes. When you set up trenches and AA emplacements that's conventional warfare. And the Viet Minh was supported only by two major powers against one France on the other side of the globe.
What is unconventional here is that they managed to do what their opponents thought was impossible thus did not prepare against. Happened a few times before.

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Gabi86
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:22 AM

Hegemon
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QUOTE (P3D @ Feb 14 2007, 12:13 AM)
And my point is that South Vietnam was defeated in a conventional operation, not by guerilla warfare. And Diem Bien Phu wasn't guerilla warfare either. Assymetric, yes. When you set up trenches and AA emplacements that's conventional warfare. And the Viet Minh was supported only by two major powers against one France on the other side of the globe.
What is unconventional here is that they managed to do what their opponents thought was impossible thus did not prepare against. Happened a few times before.

Yet they reverted back to Guerilla tactics afterwards. Go figure.

Point being, that I'd say with support of the populance, the EK's more than able to make this war last a while. Maybe not win it, but I don't have to win it. If GC wants to fight over a country with 3 HBP and 1 MBP, then we can do that.

And the EK has 400,000 troops fighting fit. Well...less than that just from the casualties from this year. But at the regeneration rate...well. Hmm. Plus who knows how many IC militia members. How much is Columbia willing to spend fighting? So in this case, it's not strictly an insurgency against a modern power. It's a modern power against an insurgency supported by another modern power.

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Ithekro
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:26 AM

King of Rohan
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One difference in American "commited forces" check to see how many are conscripts (draftees) verse regulars and reservists.

As to the US being fully committed...the Americans as a people were not commited to the war effort (otherwise you wouldn't have such a gigantic peace movement legacy), and many soldiers were not committed to the effort either. A question was asked "why are we doing this?" The answer typically was "To stop the spread of communism" The reply seemed to be "and just were it is going to spread to? There's water beyond this..what is it going to do, swim to the Philippines?" But the good soldier or sailor did his job, followed orders. and hated the "rules of engagement". The military would rather have fought the war rather than having the politicians try to fight it for them. Of course the military has no use for Kissinger either, but that's a different matter.

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P3D
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:45 AM

Hegemon
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3HBP and 1MBP is a lot.

400,000 troops? Even 20000 is stretching it. And the meanwhile you see those Zeppelins fall into the ocean due to the lack of maintenance.
And you have AFAIK 4 infantry corps total. While the IC has negligible land forces. Constabulary. There might be some marines and seamen, but those are loyal to the government, especially after a zillion airships decided to play PH.

Guerilla warfare does not have much chance to succeed either. First, not all the population support you. Second, the guerillas do not really have any strategic depth to fall back.

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Ithekro
Posted: Feb 14 2007, 12:48 AM

King of Rohan
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Best way to settle this is by game play...just setup the pieces and let the dice roll.