Want to Design Battleships for My Alternate History Timeline?

Started by Delta Force, February 12, 2012, 10:30:13 PM

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Delta Force

I am creating an alternate history timeline for a nation sim on another website. I was wondering if you guys would be interested in using your superior knowledge of naval matters to help me develop some fleet configurations and ships, especially since the timeline's version of the Washington Naval Treaty will have major changes for the capital ships. The game does have some changes in the Americas, but the major change is a more successful Germany in World War I and the survival of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The timeline is still a work in progress, but I do have the Stockholm Naval Treaty (the timeline's version of the Washington Naval Treaty) drawn up:

QuoteStockholm Naval Treaty

Battleships
Battleships (defined as a ship with a standard tonnage greater than 27,500 tons and an armament of 13.5 inches or greater) are limited to a standard tonnage of no more than 40,000 tons, with an armament no greater than 16.5 inches*. No ships with a tonnage or armament exceeding the above limits are to be constructed, sold, or delivered to a foreign power, and all ships built for foreign customers or on speculation must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

*Exceptions: Signatories may field no more than two ships with a tonnage no greater than 50,000 tons and an armament no greater than 18 inches.

Battleship Tonnage Limits:
Austria: 180,000 tons
France: 180,000 tons
Germany: 500,000 tons
British Empire (Australasia, Canada, Great Britain): 500,000 tons

Battlecruisers
Battlecruisers (defined as a ship with a standard tonnage greater than 27,500 tons, an armament of 12 inches or greater, and a top speed no less than 25 knots) are limited to a standard tonnage of no more than 40,000 tons, with an armament no greater than 15 inches, and a top speed no less than 25 knots*. No ships with a tonnage or armament exceeding the above limits are to be constructed, sold, or delivered to a foreign power, and all ships built for foreign customers or on speculation must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

*Exceptions: Signatories may field no more than two ships with a tonnage no greater than 50,000 tons, an armament no greater than 16.5 inches, and a top speed no less than 25 knots.

Battlecruiser Tonnage Limits:
Austria: 100,000 tons
France: 100,000 tons
Germany: 260,000 tons
British Empire (Australasia, Canada, Great Britain): 260,000 tons

The map can be found here: http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w289/ubermatt3/1950WorldMapv6GermanPacific.png

Nation lists and other information can be found here: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=230947

The game start date is set to be 1950, but World War II has not happened yet so military technology is somewhat early 1940s/late 1930s. Is anyone interested in designing some capital ships for my timeline?

Carthaginian

It looks like there is a Confederacy there- I might like to piddle about a bit with some ships.
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in old Baghdad;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

Delta Force

Texas and Pacifica also are intresting options as well for the North American dreadnought race. Both nations have ample oil reserves to power their fleets. Texas also becomes independent from the Confederacy early in the 1900s in this timeline, so it could fill in the role of Brazil in the timeline and become the third nation to order a dreadnought.

Of course any ship built prior to the 1920s will essentially be scrap metal by 1950 (game start) or serving with a secondary navy, but it is still intresting. Some older ships might even remain in service as light battlecruisers or light battleships (categories created by the high tonnage and firepower limits of the Stockholm Treaty) with the nations that built them, with suitable improvements in armor and propulsion.

eltf177

Took a shot at a standard battlecruiser, not 100% sure it's what you're looking for but...

*******************

Andria Doria II, RIN Battlecruiser laid down 1935

Displacement:
   33,404 t light; 34,846 t standard; 35,934 t normal; 36,804 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   866.17 ft / 850.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   264.01 m / 259.08 m x 28.96 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      10 - 12.60" / 320 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,000.19lbs / 453.68kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.58lbs / 23.85kg shells, 1935 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      20 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      40 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (20x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,673 lbs / 4,841 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   450.00 ft / 137.16 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.72" / 120 mm   150.00 ft / 45.72 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     250.00 ft / 76.20 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   750.00 ft / 228.60 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   9.00" / 229 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4.72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 97,488 shp / 72,726 Kw = 27.50 kts
   Range 3,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,959 tons

Complement:
   1,304 - 1,696

Cost:
   £13.631 million / $54.526 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,334 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 13,816 tons, 38.4 %
      - Belts: 3,757 tons, 10.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,367 tons, 3.8 %
      - Armament: 3,141 tons, 8.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 5,269 tons, 14.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 282 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,770 tons, 7.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,335 tons, 42.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,530 tons, 7.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     80,101 lbs / 36,333 Kg = 80.1 x 12.6 " / 320 mm shells or 13.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 79 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.88
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.59

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.623
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29.15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.50 ft / 1.37 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32.07 ft / 9.77 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   30.41 ft / 9.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      28.41 ft / 8.66 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   26.41 ft / 8.05 m
      - Stern:      26.41 ft / 8.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   28.59 ft / 8.72 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 249.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 60,338 Square feet or 5,606 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 858 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.16
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Main Battery layout is twins superfiring over triples.

Post World War I Italy scraps all her pre-war 12-inch dreadnoughts but saves the turrets for a coast-defense project that ends up never being started. Terms of the new treaty are closely observed; this Italy (like ours) bores the old 12-inch turrets out to 12.6-inch but fits them to newly built hulls instead of rebuilt old ones. The result is a fast and well-armored, if somewhat weakly armed, battlecruiser. The design is even seaworthy enough to operate outside the Mediterrenean.

ctwaterman

I see that neither the Confederacy or the United States are signitories to the Stockholm Treaty.

I am a little confused on how Territory that was US Prior to the Civil War could suddenly not be....   I am sure their are Vectors as to Why California is not a Union State but honestly I cant find a reason why it would not want to be??

All that being said the largest and most Industrialized parts of the US remain part of the North.  Ignoring the US at Stockholm means the US and its prime Ship Building Ability going into 1920 and Beyond is a serious mistake.   The US could even at its reduced size maintain a very large Fleet that would tip the balance in favor of any nation it chooses to support.
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Carthaginian

Quote from: ctwaterman on February 21, 2012, 11:55:21 PM
I am a little confused on how Territory that was US Prior to the Civil War could suddenly not be....   I am sure their are Vectors as to Why California is not a Union State but honestly I cant find a reason why it would not want to be??

A reality where the Confederacy didn't loose would have certainly involved some kind of negotiated settlement, probably with the British wielding the pens. I could easily see the British forcing the US to give up California in a 'castration' move, cutting off the gold supply of California and the silver of Nevada from the Federals and thus really limiting their hard currency. It makes the kind of sense that the British are known for.

I also say that the CSA and USA would sign- the CSA would want this because they are clearly a '2nd tier country' here, with the United States being sort of 'First and a Half'- never to be as strong as England, but always going to be stronger than the Confederacy. The British would probably force the US to sign with some kind of economic and diplomatic pressures- lest they become powerful enough to retake the Confederacy. Without the resources of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico AND without the devoted forces in Oklahoma, the Confederacy would require constant British support to continue to exist.
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in old Baghdad;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

ctwaterman

*Yikes*

I just re-read this and lord help me but US already has the Silver Mines of Colorada and Nevada and used them to Finance the War.  The California Gold Rush is petering out by 1860 there is still gold but California became a State in 1850  By the time of any theoretical Civil War after 1860 Great Britain has not intentions of actually trying to occupy the United States.   The Populations of Oregon, Washington, and California are US Citizens and they chose to be a Slave Free State over the protests of the South.

In effect Great Britain is proposing to Partition the United States and no matter how much better someone thinks the Confederacy is going to do England would have to deploy roughly half a Million troops to North America to even try to inforce this very heavy handed approach.

Think of it this way the Union goes on the Defensive fortifies the Rivers along the Border and invades Canada with 100K men in say 1863.  I can see an Alt time line where we wave a magic wand and this happens but in the real world No.   You have San Francisco as a city of over 150,000 People by 1860's they have defenses or they can build them barring a British Invasion what is to Prevent them from Simply Saying Fvck You to the British ???
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Carthaginian

Prince Albert was the greatest resource the US had at that time.
Her Majesty was going to send Mr. Lincoln a letter that might have started a war- but Albert tore it up and wrote a less emotional one. Had Albert died a few months earlier, Queen Victoria might have sent an army group down through Canada into Detroit and Chicago in order to set the 'upstart Yanks' back in their place. Is she had done that, the silver mines and California gold would have been a lot harder to get ahold of.

Not that I think it could have happened... but it does make an interesting thought exercise.
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in old Baghdad;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

Delta Force

I hadn't really thought of a British intervention in the American Civil War for the timeline, but would help to further cement the alliance between the CSA and the British Empire and France. It would also give the US more of a specific reason to be anti-British and pro-Central Powers. With so many American immigrants from the United States coming from German speaking areas and Ireland I was thinking it would just be natural to have them be more sympathetic to their old homeland, but an actual war between the US and British would give those feelings to the rest of the population that does not have ties to Germany and Austria-Hungary.

As for the ships themselves, I am considering having everything below large heavy cruisers (Kongo sized battlecruisers) be standard designs based on the year since this is meant for a nation simulation with naval elements and not a naval simulation with nation simulation elements. For example, 1920 model heavy cruisers, light cruisers, etc., 1925 model heavy cruisers, light cruisers, etc.

ctwaterman

*Chuckles*

When the British Delpoyed more troops to Canada in 1861 they Landed at the port of Boston and took a train to Canada???  I think it was already to late in the season for the St. Lawerence !!!

The British dont have an Army Group in Canada not one that can face the US at this time and not one they Can easily supply for any period of time.  The same factors that prevented the British from controlling the Great Lakes in 1812-1814 are still present and the US has the casual ability to out produce the British in Lake Gun Boats and Rivertine craft for operations on Lake Erie, Lake Ontario and around Detroit.

One or Two wooden Fortress guarding the Crossing of the Detroit River with say 1 US Division and the British will find that they need 3 or 4 division plus support artillary to force a crossing.  All they have is alot of Canadian Militia.

And Yes I have read the Alt History about Prince Albert.  The reason he rewrote the letter are still valid it would have been financially a bad Idea to go to war with the Union.  And despite anger over the Trent affair support among the British populace to support the Slave owning south was very narrowly located in the Cotton Weaving Cities.  Easier and Cheaper to Get Cotton from Egypt and India then to join a war that would have been extremely unpopular with the Anti-Slavery league in England.
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ctwaterman

Basically at the start of the trent affair the British had 4,300 Regualr troops in all of Canada.

QuoteOn the land, at the end of March 1861, Britain had 2,100 regular troops in Nova Scotia, 2,200 in the rest of Canada, and scattered posts in British Columbia, Bermuda, and the West Indies. Lieutenant General Sir William Fenwick Williams, Commander in Chief, North America, did what he could with his small forces, but he wrote repeatedly to the authorities back in Britain that he needed considerable reinforcements to prepare his defenses adequately.[84]

Some land reinforcements were sent in May and June. However when Palmerston, alarmed by the blockade and the Bunch affair, pressed for increasing the number of regular troops in Canada to 10,000, he met resistance. Sir George Cornwall Lewis, head of the War Office, questioned whether there was any real threat to Great Britain. He judged it "incredible that any Government of ordinary prudence should at a moment of civil war gratuitously increase the number of its enemies, and, moreover, incur the hostility of so formidable a power as England." In the debate in Parliament on June 21 there was general opposition to reinforcements, based on political, military, and economic arguments. A long standing issue was the attempt by Parliament to shift more of the burden on Canadian defense to the local government. Colonial secretary Newcastle, felt that the requests by Williams were part of a pattern of the "last few years" in which he had "been very fertile of demands and suggestions." Newcastle was also concerned that there were no winter quarters available for additional troops and he feared desertions would be a serious problem.[85]
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Carthaginian

Quote from: ctwaterman on May 17, 2012, 04:21:50 PM
Basically at the start of the trent affair the British had 4,300 Regualr troops in all of Canada.

Do remember that almost NONE of the troops in the Union OR Confederate armies were 'regulars' at this point.
Canadian forces wouldn't have to be extremely experienced troops, polished and ready to parade. Dropping 25,000 men into the Union rear would have allowed for a major disruption of supply lines. Dropping 50,000 man into that same spot could have possibly cost Minnesota or the gold in the Dakotas.

Egypt and India were indeed cheaper than Confederate cotton.
The primary reason that the British would intervene would have been to weaken the United States- which, after the Trent Affair, had given the British Empire a black eye no less than THREE times.

Albert was smart enough to realize this.
Young Victoria... well, she was a very passionate ruler. She might have been willing to have declared war on 'general principle.'
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in old Baghdad;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

Delta Force

What kind of impact would the CSA's deals to purchase the Laird Rams and CSS Stonewall have? Apart from being designed for ramming attacks, it also carried a 300 pounder Armstrong cannon. During tests such cannons proved themselves able to blow right through 5.5 inch thick iron armor. In the timeline I am writing I do have plans for the Stonewall to be delivered to the CSN and duke it out with the USN in the Battle of Nassau, a last ditch effort by the USN to prevent the blockade from being broken. Would it be reasonable for the Battle of Nassau to end with the CSS Stonewall destroying and/or seriously damaging the USS Kearsarge, USS Sacramento, USS Niagara, and USS New Ironsides (basically the Battle of Hampton Roads at sea), or would the steam sloops and frigates likely run away and leave the battle as a dual between the two ironclads? I know the CSN used steam sloops alongside the Virginia at Hampton Roads, but only in a supporting role (trying to capture USN ships damaged by Virginia).

Carthaginian

North Carolina and Mississippi would not have made a big difference at sea.
Likewise with the Stonewall.
These were coastal ships, not designed for going out into the rough North Atlantic. Now, had the three managed to get into the Gulf, then they would have been a formidable squadron... but only in the calmer waters of the Gulf.

Even if the Confederacy survives, the Atlantic will still be England's Lake for a long time.
The Confederacy will have the Gulf as a relatively secure area because of geography.
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in old Baghdad;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

Delta Force

Here is the updated treaty and capital ship list I have thus far. The storyline is set to take place in 1950, but right now using building programs based on those of real life I have it up to around 1930. I also included retirement for ships with obsolete features, such as those with wing turrets and German battleships and battlecruisers armed with the 11 inch gun. A few nations in particular need ships even for the earlier era (not France though, it has suspended large ship construction after its revolution).

QuoteCapital Ships
Capital ships (defined as a ship with a standard tonnage greater than 27,500 long tons and an armament of 11 inches or greater) are limited to a standard tonnage of no more than 40,000 long tons, with an armament no greater than 16.5 inches*. No ships with a tonnage or armament exceeding the above limits are to be constructed, sold, or delivered to a foreign power, and all ship construction must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

*Exceptions: Signatories may field the following number of ships with a tonnage no greater than 50,000 long tons and an armament no greater than 18 inches:
British Empire and its dominions: 6 ships
Germany: 6 ships
United States: 4 ships
Japan: 4 ships
Russia: 3 ships
France: 2 ships
Austria: 2 ships
Confederacy: 2 ships

The British Empire and its dominions are included together for purposes of this exception.

Capital Ship Tonnage Limits:

British Empire: 780,000 long tons
- HMS King George V (1912) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMS Iron Duke (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Marlborough (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Benbow (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Emperor of India (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Queen Elizabeth (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Warspite (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Barham (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Valiant (1916) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Malaya (1916) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Revenge (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Royal Sovereign (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Royal Oak (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Resolution (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Ramillies (1917) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Prince of Wales (1927) [Prince of Wales class, our timeline N3 class] = 48,000 long tons
- HMS Duke of York (1927) [Prince of Wales class, our timeline N3 class] = 48,000 long tons
-------------------------
- HMS Anson (1925) [Anson class, our timeline G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
- HMS Nelson (1925) [Anson class, our timeline G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
- HMS Howe (1926) [Anson class, our timeline G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
- HMS Rodney (1926) [Anson class, our timeline G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
Total: 604,310 long tons

Germany: 780,000 long tons
- SMS König (1913) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Grosser Kurfürst (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Markgraf (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Kronprinz (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Bayern (1912) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Baden (1912) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Sachsen (1919) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Württemberg (1919) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Kaiser Wilhelm II (1923) [Kaiser Wilhelm II class, our timeline L 20 α class] = 43,100 long tons
- SMS Scharnhorst (1924) [Kaiser Wilhelm II class, our timeline L 20 α class] = 43,100 long tons
- SMS Gneisenau (1924) [Kaiser Wilhelm II class, our timeline L 20 α class] = 43,100 long tons
- SMS Tirpitz (1925) [Kaiser Wilhelm II class, our timeline L 20 α class] = 43,100 long tons
-------------------------
- SMS Mackensen (1920) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- SMS Graf Spee (1919) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- SMS Prinz Eitel Friedrich (1920) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- SMS Fürst Bismarck (1920) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- SMS Yorck (1919) [Yorck class, our timeline Ersatz Yorck class] = 33,500 long tons
- SMS Gneisenau (1921) [Yorck class, our timeline Ersatz Yorck class] = 33,500 long tons
- SMS Scharnhorst (1921) [Yorck class, our timeline Ersatz Yorck class] = 33,500 long tons
Total: 679,560 long tons

United States: 520,000 long tons
- USS Delaware (1910) [Delaware class] = 20,380 long tons
- USS Utah (1911) [Utah class, our timeline Florida class] = 21,825 long tons
- USS Wyoming (1911) [Utah class, our timeline Florida class] = 21,825 long tons
- USS Ohio (1916) [Ohio class, our timeline Nevada class] = 27,500 long tons
- USS Pennsylvania (1916) [Pennsylvania class] = 31,400 long tons
- USS North Dakota (1916) [Pennsylvania class] = 31,400 long tons
- USS Rhode Island (1918) [Rhode Island class, our timeline New Mexico class] = 32,000 long tons
- USS Nebraska (1917) [Rhode Island class, our timeline New Mexico class] = 32,000 long tons
- USS Colorado (1921) [Colorado class] = 32,600 long tons
- USS Idaho (1923) [Colorado class] = 32,600 long tons
- USS Washington (1923) [Colorado class] = 32,600 long tons
- USS Kansas (1924) [Colorado class] = 32,600 long tons
-------------------------
- USS Lexington (1924) [Lexington class] = 43,500 long tons
- USS Saratoga (1925) [Lexington class] = 43,500 long tons
- USS Constitution (1925) [Lexington class] = 43,500 long tons
- USS United States (1926) [Lexington class] = 43,500 long tons
Total: 522,730 long tons

Japan: 520,000 long tons
- IJN Fusō (1914) [Fusō class] = 29,330 long tons
- IJN Yamashiro (1914) [Fusō class] = 29,330 long tons
- IJN Ise (1916) [Ise class] = 29,990 long tons
- IJN Hyūga (1918) [Ise class] = 29,990 long tons
- IJN Nagato (1920) [Nagato class] = 32,720 long tons
- IJN Mutsu (1921) [Nagato class] = 32,720 long tons
- IJN Tosa (1923) [Tosa class] = 39,900 long tons
- IJN Kaga (1922) [Tosa class] = 39,900 long tons
-------------------------
- IJN Amagi (1923) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Akagi (1923) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Atago (1924) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Takao (1924) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Owari (1928) [Owari class, our timeline Number 13 class] = 47,500 long tons
- IJN Kii (1928) [Owari class, our timeline Number 13 class] = 47,500 long tons
Total: 521,560 long tons

Russia: 390,000 long tons
- Gangut (1915) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Petropavlovsk (1915) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Sevastopol (1914) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Poltava (1914) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Imperatritsa Mariya (1915) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperatritsa Ekaterina Velikaya (1915) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperator Aleksandr III (1917) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperator Nikolai I (1921) [Imperator Nikolai I class] = 31,880 long tons
-------------------------
- Borodino (1921) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Izmail (1922) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Kinburn (1922) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Navarin (1923) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
Total: 329,170 tons

France: 260,000 long tons
- Le Quatorzième de Juillet (1911) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- La Révolution (1911) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- La Commune de Paris (1912) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- France (1912) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- L'Internationale (1913) [Bretagne class] = 23,560 long tons
- Friedrich Engels (1913) [Bretagne class] = 23,560 long tons
- Karl Marx (1913) [Bretagne class] = 23,560 long tons
- Rouge Décembre (1922) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
- Liberté (1923) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
- Égalité (1924) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
- Camaraderie (1924) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
Total: 264,360 long tons

Austria: 260,000 long tons
- SMS Virbius Unitis (1911) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Tegetthoff (1912) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Prinz Eugen (1912) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Szent István (1914) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Anton Haus (1916) [Andrea Doria class, war prize] = 22,960 long tons
- SMS Rudolf Montecuccoli (1916) [Andrea Doria class, war prize] = 22,960 long tons
- SMS Kaiser Franz Josef I (1926) [Kaiser Franz Josef I class] = 49,610 long tons
- SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (1926) [Kaiser Franz Josef I class] = 49,610 long tons
-------------------------
- SMS Habsburg (1922) [Habsburg class, Austrian built Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
Total = 256,140 long tons

Confederacy: 260,000 long tons
- CSS Maryland (1914) [Maryland class, Confederate Almirante Latorre] = 25,000 long tons
- CSS South Carolina (1915) [Maryland class, Confederate built Almirante Latorre] = 25,000 long tons
- CSS Mississippi (1915) [Maryland class, Confederate built Almirante Latorre] = 25,000 long tons
- CSS Arkansas (1916) [Maryland class, Confederate built Almirante Latorre] = 25,000 long tons
-------------------------
- CSS Semmes (1920) [Semmes class, Admiral class completed for Confederacy] = 42,000 long tons
- CSS Buchanan (1921) [Semmes class, Admiral class completed for Confederacy] = 42,000 long tons
- CSS Mallory (1922) [Semmes class, Admiral class completed for Confederacy] = 42,000 long tons
- CSS Bulloch (1922) [Semmes class, Confederate built improved Admiral class] = 42,000 long tons
Total: 268,000 long tons

British Dominions: 180,000 long tons
- HMCS Orion (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMCS Monarch (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMCS Conqueror (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMCS Thunderer (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMAS Centurion (1913) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMAS Ajax (1913) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
-------------------------
- HMAS Hood (1920) [Admiral class] = 42,000 long tons
Total: 176,000 long tons

--------------------------------------------------

Large Heavy Cruisers
Large heavy cruisers are ships with a standard tonnage between 10,000 and 27,500 long tons, an armament greater than 8 inches, and a speed of 25 knots or greater. All large heavy cruiser construction must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

Large Heavy Cruiser Tonnage Limits:

British Empire: 165,000 long tons
- HMS Lion (1912) [Lion class] = 26,270 long tons
- HMS Princess Royal (1912) [Lion class] = 26,270 long tons
- HMS Tiger (1914) [Tiger class] = 28,500 long tons
- HMS Renown (1916) [Renown class] = 27,200 long tons
- HMS Repulse (1916) [Renown class] = 27,200 long tons
Total: 135,440 long tons

Germany: 165,000 long tons
- SMS Derfflinger (1914) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
- SMS Lützow (1915) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
- SMS Hindenburg (1917) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
Total: 92,100 long tons

United States: 110,000 long tons
N/A

Japan: 110,000 long tons
- IJN Kongō (1913) [Kongō class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Hiei (1914) [Kongō class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Kirishima (1915) [Kongō class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Haruna (1915) [Kongō class] = 27,500 long tons
Total: 110,000 long tons

Russia: 82,500 long tons
N/A

France: 55,000 long tons
N/A

Austria: 55,000 long tons
- SMS Böhmen (1925) [Böhmen class] = 27,750 long tons
- SMS Ungarn (1926) [Böhmen class] = 27,750 long tons
Total: 55,500 long tons

Confederacy: 55,000 long tons
- CSS Nassau (1914) [Nassau class, Confederate Vickers Kongō class] = 27,500 long tons
- CSS Hampton Roads (1915) [Nassau class, Confederate built Vickers Kongō class] = 27,500 long tons
Total: 55,000 long tons

British Dominions: 40,000 long tons
- HMCS Courageous (1916) [Courageous class] = 19,180 long tons
- HMCS Glorious (1916) [Courageous class] = 19,180 long tons
Total: 38,360 long tons