Lichtenstien's Monster

[Kaiser Kirk]

Not a serious proposal, but an exploration of monster guns on a really big ship, sparked by the guns consideration.

Only 5 years to build !

Monster, Lichtenstien Dreadyes laid down 1923

Displacement:
   50,000 t light; 53,713 t standard; 56,854 t normal; 59,367 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720.46 ft / 705.38 ft x 121.39 ft (Bulges 131.23 ft) x 31.99 ft (normal load)
   219.59 m / 215.00 m x 37.00 m (Bulges 40.00 m)  x 9.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 19.69" / 500 mm guns (2x4 guns), 3,968.32lbs / 1,800.00kg shells, 1923 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1923 Model
     Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 22.24lbs / 10.09kg shells, 1923 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1923 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 32,861 lbs / 14,905 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.8" / 375 mm   458.50 ft / 139.75 m   18.96 ft / 5.78 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   246.85 ft / 75.24 m   18.96 ft / 5.78 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   458.50 ft / 139.75 m   30.97 ft / 9.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      5.51" / 140 mm   458.50 ft / 139.75 m   30.91 ft / 9.42 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.7" / 400 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      14.8" / 375 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.20" / 5 mm      0.20" / 5 mm
   4th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 5.31" / 135 mm, Conning tower: 17.72" / 450 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 25 shafts, 73,543 shp / 54,863 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,780nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,654 tons

Complement:
   1,840 - 2,393

Cost:
   £15.752 million / $63.009 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,953 tons, 7.0 %
   Armour: 21,365 tons, 37.6 %
      - Belts: 8,087 tons, 14.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 2,890 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armament: 3,243 tons, 5.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 6,580 tons, 11.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 564 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,458 tons, 4.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 21,748 tons, 38.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,854 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 475 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     77,934 lbs / 35,350 Kg = 20.4 x 19.7 " / 500 mm shells or 16.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 9.9 ft / 3.0 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.672
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.13 ft / 7.66 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.13 ft / 7.66 m
      - Mid (50 %):      25.13 ft / 7.66 m (17.13 ft / 5.22 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.13 ft / 5.22 m
      - Stern:      17.13 ft / 5.22 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.13 ft / 6.44 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 66,924 Square feet or 6,217 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 247 lbs/sq ft or 1,206 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.49
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Deck Armor
Weather Deck is armored at 35mm.
Main Armor deck is armored at 100mm.


Belt Armor :
The External belt is 75mm, extending from 3m BWL to the Weather deck- this is modeled as the Upper Belt. The both makes the upper citadel immune to HE/SAP cruiser rounds, and serves to exclude such rounds from entering in front of the main belt and detonating in the TDS.  This also happens to serve to decap every shell conceivable.

The Main Armor Belt is 350mm sloped 15degrees, running from the Main Armor Deck at 2.78m AWL down to -3m BWL where it meets meeting the top of the main holding bulkhead. Both the Main Armored belt and the Main Holding bulkhead are backed by a vertical  25mm Screen which is modeled as part of each one.


TDS:
The Torpedo Defense System is comprised of an exterior 1.5m Bulge filled with fuel Oil.
This is backed by the Hull plating, void space, 25mm STS bulkhead, fuel, void space, 25mm STS bulkhead, void space, 25mm STS bulkhead, fuel, 50mm holding bulkhead, void space, 25mm screen. Which each compartment 1m deep, the 1.5m bulge and the 6 compartments give a terrific depth of 7.5m, or over 24.5 feet.

This compares favorably to all OTL Battleships, but also requires a greater beam. 

[TexanCowboy]

I must counter with the Popemobile, financed with centuries worth of relics and gold and other things that a church would acquire...

[Kaiser Kirk]

Never Cross the dread Popemobile !

[P3D]

You really need to put some 9"-11" secondaries on that ship :P

And it has 13' beam over Iowa, so even the quads would fit (say 1' increased distance between guns, and an extra 10' to increase barbette). Then an extra 10,000t into speed so the ship won't have to wait in vain to engage anything faster than a fishing boat.

[Delta Force]

Yeah, this would be a good ship, except for it would be so distinctive that anyone who spots it would quickly turn tail and run.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well the design was meant to be something that would fit in a 220m slip and <10m draft, and I wanted 500mm guns for a nice round number.  Found I could make it go faster than 21 knots, so it became 23 :)

Overall it becomes sea control rather than hunting.   Rarely do we see capital ships on the open ocean hunting. One of the things I look forward to in the Maori war is how the fast lightly armored ships of the New Swiss deal with the slow heavily armored ships of the Maori sitting in Phoenix harbor.

Even then- Bismarck was faster than Hood/PoW/KGV and Rodney,  Scharnhorst faster than DOY,  Kirishima faster than SoDak & Washington, heck even at Leyte the IJN battlewagons were "faster" than the 'standards' that sank them.

[ctwaterman]

It always comes down to a question.   Is there some location the Faster Fleet absoloutely has to defend.   Or is there a location the Faster Fleet wants to attack.

Because on an open ocean yes the faster fleet can usually manage to disengage with a minimum number of broadsides exchanged.

But as an example the New Swiss Fleet absoloutely had to reach a New Zion Port if any of the destroyers were going to survive.   So they had to fight even though they were faster.

If the New Swiss Navy had been present off Phoenix they would have almost had to have fought to defend the approaches to the Harbor.

So a slow fleet only has to find something to attack that the enemy needs to defend or defend something or some place the faster enemy has to attack or pass thru such as a choke point.

[Sachmle]

What Charles said is the basic reasoning behind the decision to settle for 23kts for the DKB battle line. When the Kaiser Wilhelm II class was laid down in 1906 23kts was very fast for a battleship, now 14yrs later, it's average at best. However, outright speed is not what is necessary in our strategic position at this time. Long range is more valuable, and a high cruising speed with that high range better. The Swiss have no battle line, the Orangers seem to have beaten their sabers into plows, and the Dutch are too fast to the point that catching up speed wise would cost either too much armor or firepower, or make for an overly large ship. So, 23kts is fast enough for the battleships.

[mentat]

Yikes - how big will each of the 2 Monster Turrets be ?? and weight ?? - how big your crane??  and really fit well within hull with 50' of TDS?

Twin turrets seems more do-able at this size - but will need maybe 800' design

   - good luck any way ......

[Kaiser Kirk]

One, it was meant to be humorous.
Two, the quads should fit, or come close given there are only two, so can be concentrated towards the area of maximum beam, and the BC is a beefy 0.675.  Beam abreast the turrets is what matters, 4x3 and 3x3 design vessels mean the fore turret is at a narrower beam than the other two, not the case in a 2x4.
Three- we normally don't even specify TDS width, and 6' of that 48' is bulges. I want to say SS models it as 17ft, but I really can't recall what I decided.
Four- I find it funny a speed discussion came out of it.



Edit : Checking TDS system breadths, it actually only slightly exceeds them. I was thinking of Iowa or Bismarck at 18ft, while Yamato, Vittorio Veneto both were a shade under 24ft, and  Richelieu was about 23ft.   KGV was pathetic- 13ft. More and more I read about the KGV design, the worse it seems.

[mentat]

- appreciate the humour aspect  ;D - just wanted to know if actually doable ...... i missed the 'tankeresque' BC  - so think yes - but maybe not very good fit with the very full TDS you described ....