1879 TB

[Jefgte]

From Rules:

Torpedo Boats and Destroyers:
1875 / 1880 - 50 tons (0.5 strength and at least 50% of mass to engines) (single TT)
1880 / 1885 - 80 tons (" " & " ")
1885 / 1890 - 125 tons (" " & " ")


The first SS tests made the first TB very slow with the 50% limit...

[Jefgte]

36T - machinery 20t for 15kts...   :(

1879-36T, France 1TTx355+1x37 laid down 1879

Displacement:
   35 t light; 35 t standard; 36 t normal; 36 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (101.71 ft / 101.71 ft) x 8.86 ft x (3.67 / 3.71 ft)
   (31.00 m / 31.00 m) x 2.70 m  x (1.12 / 1.13 m)

Armament:
      1 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 22.3 cal gun - 1.27lbs / 0.58kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1879 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      Weight of broadside 1 lbs / 1 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      1 - 14.0" / 356 mm, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m torpedo - 0.000 t total
   In a deck mounted carriage/fixed tube

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.49" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 260 ihp / 194 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 50nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   6 - 9

Cost:
   £0.004 million / $0.016 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.4 %
      - Guns: 0 tons, 0.4 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 3.4 %
   Machinery: 20 tons, 54.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10 tons, 26.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 tons, 3.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 11.1 %
      - Hull below water: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6 lbs / 3 Kg = 4.5 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 0.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 0.2 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 8.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.48

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.382
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.08 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m
      - Forward deck:   34.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m
      - Aft deck:   34.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m
      - Quarter deck:   12.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m
      - Average freeboard:      3.81 ft / 1.16 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 517 Square feet or 48 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 31 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 9 lbs/sq ft or 42 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.46
      - Longitudinal: 1.22
      - Overall: 0.51
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

This ship is also equipped with sails

[Guinness]

I don't think that's slow. I think it's about right for the era. This is, after all, only a 35t boat  that is 31m long. Compare to the historical Torpilleur No. 1: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpilleur_No_1

[Jefgte]

In 1878, speed was 18kts

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpilleurs_type_27_m_Normand

Just 15kts for 1879...that's slow, too slow

The rule:
"1875 / 1880 - 50 tons (0.5 strength and at least 50% of mass to engines) (single TT)"

is wrong.

Jef

[Jefgte]

With nearly 60% of mass to engines, that's right  :)

1879-50T, France 1TTx355+1x37 laid down 1879

Displacement:
   48 t light; 49 t standard; 50 t normal; 50 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (118.11 ft / 118.11 ft) x 9.84 ft x (3.94 / 3.97 ft)
   (36.00 m / 36.00 m) x 3.00 m  x (1.20 / 1.21 m)

Armament:
      1 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 22.3 cal gun - 1.28lbs / 0.58kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1879 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      Weight of broadside 1 lbs / 1 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      1 - 14.0" / 356 mm, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m torpedo - 0.000 t total
   In a deck mounted carriage/fixed tube

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.49" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 565 ihp / 421 Kw = 17.60 kts
   Range 50nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   9 - 12

Cost:
   £0.006 million / $0.023 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.3 %
      - Guns: 0 tons, 0.3 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 2.5 %
   Machinery: 29 tons, 59.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13 tons, 26.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 tons, 3.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 8.0 %
      - Hull below water: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7 lbs / 3 Kg = 5.4 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 0.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 0.2 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 8.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.382
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  5.58 ft / 1.70 m
      - Forward deck:   34.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m
      - Aft deck:   34.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m
      - Quarter deck:   12.00 %,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m,  3.61 ft / 1.10 m
      - Average freeboard:      3.85 ft / 1.17 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 200.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 51.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 667 Square feet or 62 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 21 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 10 lbs/sq ft or 49 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.49
      - Longitudinal: 0.88
      - Overall: 0.52
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

This ship is also equipped with sails

[Guinness]

so you think the rule should require more than 50% of normal displacement for engines?

[Carthaginian]

so you think the rule should require more than 50% of normal displacement for engines?

From what playing around I've been doing with TB's for the Lakes, that would seem a fair assumption.

[Jefgte]

so you think the rule should require more than 50% of normal displacement for engines?

1-We could just delete the engines limitation & have just the tonnage/date limitation-50t-80t & 125t
2-Update the rules & increase the engines limitation to (nearly) 60%.

I remember too that much Members hope to built historical ships (I added clearly this rule).
If they hope to built some Torpilleur n° ** , the engines limitation must be adjusted to 60%


Jef

[snip]

you can go over 50% of displacement under the current rule, it just cannot have less then 50% of its mass dedicated to engines. Nothing stoping you from going over

[Walter]

you can go over 50% of displacement under the current rule, it just cannot have less then 50% of its mass dedicated to engines. Nothing stoping you from going over

My thoughts exactly. It says "at least" so that is the minimum requirement and not maximum requirement.

[Darman]

I wonder what 90% of displacement as engines would look like....