War with the Brownshirts

Borys · March 24, 2007, 03:58:53 PM

Maddox
Posted: Dec 20 2006, 10:24 PM

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Diplomatic, all went wrong for New Swiss after the elections of 1902.
Unseen forces manipulated, pulled strings, everything needed for a total change of governement. And they got to that goal.

The Middle Kingdom-New Swiss war promised to be long and very draining on all resources, with New Swiss ruling the waves, but the Middle Kingdom gathering strength on land with raising of corps after corps to repell the invaders.
Even with a lot of public support for this war, no one wished to see their sons been send off to be killed in a rice paddy or a bamboo forest by a Chinese peasant.

Propaganda did its work, and a new governement was formed.The old governement and the supporters, mainly navy didn't accept this, and went into excile in the new territories, with Hawaï as center.

Unfortunately, a loan from the Eastern Kingdom wasn't payed in full in the agreed upon time ,because both gouvernements, strapped for cash were shoveling the manure around between them. This caused misinterpretation about the collateral, namely the New Swiss colony around Anchorache.

The 2 New Swiss army corps, stationed in the disputed area, warned by all the ruckus , could dig in, and the entrenchments helped them stave off the first attacks of Eastern Kingdom armies.

The Eastern Kingdom, now feeling strong enough with the "legal issue" to reclaim, or claim- according to whom is telling- is eager to push this situation.


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Earl822
Posted: Dec 21 2006, 03:25 AM

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Ok, that makes much more sense to me.

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Borys
Posted: Dec 21 2006, 04:15 AM

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OOC
If the deal was
"Pay back loan by X, or accept Anchorage as compensation"
and
date X has passed,
then Anchorage passes to Osterkoenigreich.
This is the position of Oesterreich.

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Desertfox II
Posted: Dec 21 2006, 09:10 AM

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Im not sure on the date, but the collateral was the Auletian Islands not Anchorage.

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Ithekro
Posted: Dec 21 2006, 12:17 PM

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We'll let the negotiators work on that one. Personally I'd like to hear from Russia on the matter since they seem to have been involved in Alaska for a brief time even in Navalism.

I'd suggest that we might look for at least one new New Swiss player and thus take the burden of worrying about the matter away from Desertfox, thus there won't be as much of an attachment, and at least part of that power could react legally (diplomatically, economically, or militarily).

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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 02:37 AM

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Well then unfortunately for the New Swiss their "asset" happens to be in my territory. Or rather it is my territory.

Whats Rohan's position on this? Will Rohan move to stop the EK from claiming the area?

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Maddox
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 03:19 AM

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1 month later.

The trenchline of Anchorage still holding.

Frantic messages from New Swisscapital Phoenix to the capital of the Eastern Kingdom Dodan .

"Payment secured, deliverable at any time of choice"

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Borys
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 03:39 AM

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OOC
There are 100,000 men in prepared (several weeks) positions in snow covered mountains. If they want to fight, then practicaly impossible to budge.
The attacker is kindly requested to provide information on casualties due to freezing and avalanches, plus incapacitated by frostbite and snowblindness.
Unless those two corps simply refuse to fight (lose will, are bought, etc.) or are starved (food or ammunition), they can hold on almost forever.
Apart from surprise attack, the only way to kick them out is:
- naval blokade of Anchorage, and pressure on frontline as to force them to use up supplies;
- a very bloody summer offensive;

So, is the cost in lives and MBPs worth it?
That's up to the hmm ... I presume that the monarch of something called "Eastern Kingdom" would be a king, but "emperor" would be more in line with the Chinese/Japanese theme.
So the monarch must decide.

Borys

This post has been edited by Borys on Dec 22 2006, 03:44 AM

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Ithekro
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 11:50 AM

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(What dates are these events happening on?)

The Kingdom of Rohan, being a neighbor of the Eastern Kingdom of the Nihon and friendly with the former ruling government of the United States of New Switzerland, would recommend mediation on the Swiss possessions in the New World. Rohan would be willing to act as mediator should that be requested.

Rohan notes that neither nation is native to the region, so disputes will revolve around claims and monitary compensation rather than historical inhabitation (as the dispute in the Middle Kingdom was based on historical inhabitations and depopulations.)

(Fighting in the relative darkness of winter wouldn't be wise I would think. Also Rohan uses Anchorage as one of two stopping points on voyages to northern Asia, the other being Hawaii.)

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Desertfox II
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 12:39 PM

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This is going to turn into a very "cold" war. The only way Anchorage can be taken is by a blockade. This is one war where logistics are the key to victory. NS has 100,000 troops behind a trench line. Including veterans from China and an Elite Alpine Division. To take Anchorage from land will require the entire EK army which would leave Juneau open to invasion, And NS can move further troops in. The logistics required to mantain a strong army besieging Anchorage over nen existant land routes is inmense. Unfortunately EK does not have the frces required for a Naval Blockade.

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Ithekro
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 01:19 PM

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I'd say air blockade, but those aren't very effective and you are much more subject to the elements and daylight. However in the summer you'll have lots of light. I don't know how effective your cold war will be as it will depend on which faction of the New Swiss can or will react. Also they'll have the problem of maintaining their escorts and army. It depends on what each faction has left.

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Desertfox II
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 01:29 PM

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The ones interested would be the UnoNS in Hawaii. And they would react. They do have the resources neccesary to support the defense, the NS Merchant Marine might have been savaged but it is still strong and NS still dominates trade in the Pacific. I estimate that NS managed to Keep an army equivalent to that of EK in strength and they have reserves. The only way EK can win is if they get outside help otherwise the odds are against them. All their troops are level 3, NS troops are at leaste level 5 (for defence). And the NSN badly outnumbers the EK navy.

Like the "Sun Tzu Art of War" says: attack you enemies plan if not possible its Alliance, then its army, and finally its cities. And dont attack an enemy in fatal terrain. The Swiss dont have anywhere else to go, they will fight.

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Earl822
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 01:45 PM

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Air blockade wouldn't work unless the Eastern Kingdom has developed some serious bombs, and armoured Zeppelin's as I'm sure the Swiss will just point their Gatling's at the sky.

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Borys
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 02:38 PM

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Ahoj!
The Zeppelins would most likely be torn into shreds by the weather. Also, the Swiss were past masters at falconry and took this art with them into exile. In the Japanese islands their art was married with the fearsome Hayabusa, producing ZAF (Zeppelin Abwehr Falkon) units.

QUOTE
the Swiss will just point their Gatling's at the sky.

Yup, all navies have their pom-poms, gatlings, nordenfelds. Question of modifing the mount for better elevation.

Borys

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swamphen
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 07:13 PM

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I agree, the Air Wolves of the EK are most certainly denned up for the winter. Were it summer, they might be of not some small use, but given the Abnormally Extremely Cold, No Good, Very Bad Winter...

Anyway, the DKB is eyeing the area with minor interest, having acquired Attu and its satellite islands a few years back.

Borys · March 24, 2007, 03:59:31 PM

Gabi86
Posted: Dec 22 2006, 10:29 PM

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QUOTE (Maddox @ Dec 22 2006, 03:19 AM)
1 month later.

The trenchline of Anchorage still holding.

Frantic messages from New Swisscapital Phoenix to the capital of the Eastern Kingdom Dodan .

"Payment secured, deliverable at any time of choice"

Deal. But I want the payment in the form of 8 MBP. Plus 4 MBP for defaulting in the first place. So thats 1.5 HBP. In exchange the reigon remains a happy productive area.

The Emperess of the Nihon is a very gentle person. :-)
No need for wars if reasonable demands and compensation can be made.

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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 01:23 AM

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QUOTE (Borys @ Dec 22 2006, 02:38 PM)
Ahoj!
The Zeppelins would most likely be torn into shreds by the weather. Also, the Swiss were past masters at falconry and took this art with them into exile. In the Japanese islands their art was married with the fearsome Hayabusa, producing ZAF (Zeppelin Abwehr Falkon) units.

QUOTE
the Swiss will just point their Gatling's at the sky.

Yup, all navies have their pom-poms, gatlings, nordenfelds. Question of modifing the mount for better elevation.

Borys

Nah.

At 3,000 ft its out of range of everything but 3" guns. At 5,500 feet the idea of him fighting me with gattling guns is a pipedream.

In Naval warfare his ships would be inconvienced with 22 torpedoes being dropped by a single Z7. 3000 ft away, 2500 yards out. In the middle of the night. You do the math.

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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 01:30 AM

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QUOTE (Earl822 @ Dec 22 2006, 01:45 PM)
Air blockade wouldn't work unless the Eastern Kingdom has developed some serious bombs, and armoured Zeppelin's as I'm sure the Swiss will just point their Gatling's at the sky.

There aren't any gattling guns with the range to hit something 3,000 ft in the air.

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Maddox
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 02:27 AM

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QUOTE
Nah.

At 3,000 ft its out of range of everything but 3" guns. At 5,500 feet the idea of him fighting me with gattling guns is a pipedream.

In Naval warfare his ships would be inconvienced with 22 torpedoes being dropped by a single Z7. 3000 ft away, 2500 yards out. In the middle of the night. You do the math.

Lets go by simple numbers. Torpedo's can't hit the water at high speed, or else the explosives or detonator will go. So they need a kind of drag mechanisme or drogue stabilizer chute.
Lets asume their maximum impact speed is double the highest speed of the torpedo trough water, lets be generous at 50 mph.

With a total distance of 3000foot away 2500 foot high the torpedo has an airpath to travel of 3905 foot .

With 50mph that gives a fall time of 52,8 seconds. Watertime is at max range, slow setting 4minutes 36 seconds. Over 5 minutes of travel. Unguided, unaimed, with a 15% chance of a dud on launch, aggrivated by the glide part of the whole story, so 30% failure rate at least.

And then to hit moving targets in the dark.
With torpedo's that aren't powerfull enough to sink vessels larger than destroyers with 1 hit (except critical hits)

Oh well, you have worked out a naval battle system. Try this for size and let us know what the succes rate was.

But I would drop mines at low speed and hight, in the path of the approaching ships. Mines have a better payload and can have sturdier triggers.


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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 03:36 AM

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30%? So the majority of the torpedoes would strike?

Btw, are the NewSwiss going to accept my offer? I offered to accept the payment.

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Borys
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 03:44 AM

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Ahoj!
No - 30% (very optimistic IMO) is that the torpedos hitting the water will work at all. Hitting ships is a different matter. Think of drify off course in the air caused by the wind. And of all possible things a ship might doe during those minutes of dropping and swimming. I would put your chances of hitting anything at zero. Oh, you will get lucky once every one thousand torpedos or so.

Borys

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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 04:06 AM

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QUOTE (Borys @ Dec 23 2006, 03:44 AM)
Ahoj!
No - 30% (very optimistic IMO) is that the torpedos hitting the water will work at all. Hitting ships is a different matter. Think of drify off course in the air caused by the wind. And of all possible things a ship might doe during those minutes of dropping and swimming. I would put your chances of hitting anything at zero. Oh, you will get lucky once every one thousand torpedos or so.

Borys

I'd say your wrong. Considering when the torpedoes hit the water, they only have 2,500 yards to travel to the target

22 torpedoes in a spread pattern, if they used stabilizer fins, would fan out in the water. Incidentally the bombs of WW1 didn't drift all that much, neither did the ones in ww2. and they were dropped from 15,000 to 25,000 ft.

I'm dropping a lightweight torpedo from 3,000 ft.

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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 04:48 AM

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I don't talk about stuff I don't know anything about like Borys, so I'll refute his claims.

--------------------------------------
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app1/gb.html

The GB-1 used a simple airframe around an M34 900 kg (2000 lb) bomb. It had a 3.66 m (12 ft)-span wing, twin tails, and a glide speed of 370 km/h (230 mph). The GB-1 did not use a guidance system. It was released when the bomber was at a predetermined altitude and distance to the target, and continued to glide on the preset glide path until impact. Range after a drop from 4570 m (15000 ft) was about 32 km (20 miles).

The GT-1 (GT = Glide Torpedo) was a variant of the GB-1 which used a Mk.13-2A homing torpedo instead of a general purpose bomb. Like the GB-1, it flew at a preset glide path. However, the GT-1 was equipped with a paravane which trailed 6 m (20 ft) below it, and which upon entering the water triggered the explosive removal of the airframe components from the torpedo. In the water, the torpedo would travel in a preset search pattern like circles or a zig-zag.

--------------------------------------------------

I'm not even using a glide torpedo. I'm just using a straight drag torpedo. It falls, hits the water. And goes.

But an interesting note about the GT-1-

It has the same characteristics as the GB-1. Which means it would impact the water at about 230 MPH, 370 km/h. So obviously torpedoes by WW2 standards could withstand four times the speed of hitting the water that the ones I propose could. Furthemore I find it interesting that the glide torpedo just used a standard Mk 13-2A torpedo. No alterations necessary.

It therefore stands to reason that it's perfectly possible to drop a torpedo into the water which impacts about between 50-100 mph and uses drag fins or parachutes to slow down before hitting the waters surface.

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Earl822
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 05:06 AM

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Air dropped torps are designed to be dropped from under 100ft, by dropping even your light weight, un airworthy torps from 3000ft, I estimate nearly 50% will break up on impact with the water, with another 10-20% having motors that fail to start and thus end up useless.
Also aiming at a blacked out fleet might be a tads tricky at night.

As Maddox says, using mines, dropped at low levels/speeds at night would be a far more effective option.

That Glide torp is from the 40's, so I'll say that an apparently backward Eastern Kingdom couldn't achieve it, though I suspect your best weapon may be a manned version as the peoples of the Eastern Kingdom would know of the Samurai traditions. Guidance systems are not in existance here yet, and I now shotgun(claim) the PGM (Pigeon Guided Missile)

Also, I reckon the New Swiss would already be wary, and would have every light gun they can lay their hands on, on the ships so their would be quite a hail of fair at any torp that somehow survived it's drop.

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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 05:12 AM

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QUOTE (Earl822 @ Dec 23 2006, 05:06 AM)
Air dropped torps are designed to be dropped from under 100ft, by dropping even your light weight, un airworthy torps from 3000ft, I estimate nearly 50% will break up on impact with the water, with another 10-20% having motors that fail to start and thus end up useless.
Also aiming at a blacked out fleet might be a tads tricky at night.

As Maddox says, using mines, dropped at low levels/speeds at night would be a far more effective option.

That Glide torp is from the 40's, so I'll say that an apparently backward Eastern Kingdom couldn't achieve it, though I suspect your best weapon may be a manned version as the peoples of the Eastern Kingdom would know of the Samurai traditions. Guidance systems are not in existance here yet, and I now shotgun(claim) the PGM (Pigeon Guided Missile)

Also, I reckon the New Swiss would already be wary, and would have every light gun they can lay their hands on, on the ships so their would be quite a hail of fair at any torp that somehow survived it's drop.

I don't want to build a glide torpedo.

I just want a straight fall torpedo.

Furthermore if the science is correct, torpedo dive bombers released their torpedoes at speeds greater than 250 MPH on a regular basis. Meaning that the torpedo would hit the water at at least 200 MPH

I don't want anything with guidance! just normal torpedoes dropped from the air. I thought I had made that clear already.

btw. aren't you going to say something to Borys? I mean he did call me a bimbo. doesn't anybody care?

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Earl822
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 05:21 AM

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I will ignore the problems between yourself and Borys until I deem it necessary to contact Maddox and request action to be taken, coz my enjoyment of the sim is being greatly diminished, as it stands, I'm gonna move another Cavalry division west.

As for the torps, I can't see the torps working at all when dropped from 3000ft, but it is Maddox's call not mine or yours.

As for the Rules, they are again, at the call of the Moderator, and we all have all had them go against what we want at some point, so please just accept them as they stand and join in, without trying to change any part radically.


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Gabi86
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 05:31 AM

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QUOTE (Earl822 @ Dec 23 2006, 05:21 AM)
I will ignore the problems between yourself and Borys until I deem it necessary to contact Maddox and request action to be taken, coz my enjoyment of the sim is being greatly diminished, as it stands, I'm gonna move another Cavalry division west.

As for the torps, I can't see the torps working at all when dropped from 3000ft, but it is Maddox's call not mine or yours.

As for the Rules, they are again, at the call of the Moderator, and we all have all had them go against what we want at some point, so please just accept them as they stand and join in, without trying to change any part radically.

just don't talk to me.

i dont think i want to be part of this sim anymore. i'm just a stupid bimbo afterall.

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Maddox
Posted: Dec 23 2006, 06:46 AM

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I'm taking action.

Insults removed.

*****************************************************************************

Gabi, at least 30% of your torpedo's that hit the water will fail.
Torpedo's hitting the water at more than 50 kts will break up on impact.

I'll repeat what the Middle kingdom did at the Yantai Ambush.

600 torpedo's, in 3 waves of 200 did sink 5 ships of the enemy and 2 own ships ,as the torpedo's exploded on launch. The 6th enemy ship evaded the torpedo's but ran into the minefields, as did 1 Middle kingdom ship.

The airdriven slow 14" torpedo's are no wonderweapon, but a stinger. With enough stings, you can kill a large ship, but it isn't easy.
Alliance , an 18000 tons "modern" supercruiser took 5 hits, and if 1 wasn't a critical hit, she would have survived.

All in all only 9 torpedo's struck, and that an prepared attack on a known enemy without any real evasive options,
This attack was launched by ships that trained on night assaults, at calm sea, in the gentle South Chinese sea, in a sheltered bay.

Comparing to what you propose, a single airship, in an area know for the violent weather, against an enemy that knows what you have- it's not that you can hide your airships testing torpedo attacks- and an enemy that got a real war recently against a torpedo heavy fleet, against suicidal peasants and even then still feeling powerfull enough to take on 2 other empires, and to top that, feels strong enough to take on France.....

No, I'm afraid that won't cut the cheese if New Swiss sends in the biased (they hate "gooks") experienced navy.


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Phoenix
Posted: Dec 26 2006, 01:53 PM

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QUOTE (Gabi86 @ Dec 23 2006, 05:31 AM)
i dont think i want to be part of this sim anymore. i'm just a stupid bimbo afterall.

OOC

I might say your heavy-handed approach has rankled some feathers, and you know how males are sooo proud of their coats... wink.gif A more easy-going attitude is the norm in this game and makes it much more pleasant to play for all. If I was games-mistress, dear Gabi, you would have been kicked so hard in your keyboard you would have to go and collect the buttons on the ISS. But I'm not. Wiser heads have prevailed and you have sweet gentle Maddox moderating here.
I am so overjoyed at having a fellow sister playing, just show these males that "bimbo" stands for "beautiful, intelligent, magnanimous, broad-minded and omnipatient" instead of catering to their prejudices.