French Navy

[Jefgte]

I could n't start without the Hoche type  :o  :o  :o

Barbette covered BB, France BB-4x340 laid down 1882
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   9 990 t light; 10 441 t standard; 11 130 t normal; 11 681 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   360.89 ft / 360.89 ft x 65.62 ft x 25.86 ft (normal load)
   110.00 m / 110.00 m x 20.00 m  x 7.88 m

Armament:
     4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1 037.34lbs / 470.53kg shells, 1881 Model
     Breech loading guns in open barbettes
     on centreline, evenly spread
     12 - 5.43" / 138 mm guns in single mounts, 68.16lbs / 30.92kg shells, 1880 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.69lbs / 1.22kg shells, 1880 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     4 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1880 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4 989 lbs / 2 263 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   236.22 ft / 72.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   2.01" / 51 mm     98.43 ft / 30.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     26.25 ft / 8.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   236.22 ft / 72.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         9.06" / 230 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 13.39" / 340 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8 505 ihp / 6 345 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 240 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   541 - 704

Cost:
   £1.113 million / $4.453 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 624 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 3 742 tons, 33.6 %
      - Belts: 1 944 tons, 17.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 741 tons, 6.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 913 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 144 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 1 712 tons, 15.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 612 tons, 32.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 140 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9 006 lbs / 4 085 Kg = 8.5 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 14.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.62

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.636
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      9.19 ft / 2.80 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   9.19 ft / 2.80 m (17.06 ft / 5.20 m before break)
      - Stern:      9.19 ft / 2.80 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.97 ft / 3.95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 17 909 Square feet or 1 664 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 679 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.39
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Hoche inspiration
Drawing in progress  ;)

[Carthaginian]

Yeah... I can tell right now that there will be a MAJOR divergence between Acadian and French designs. ;)

I hope that she doesn't have the topweight problems of "The Hotel", Jef, or that 2.8m of freeboard will likely just be 0.8m.

[Jefgte]

The Hotel fore barbette, well closed, with the 340mm gun, is installed one deck higher.
But, she is always "The Hotel"

Jef  ;)

[Jefgte]

Inspired from the Coastal French BB, the Station BB (colonial) & the French losange artillery disposition:

6200t, France colonial BB laid down 1887

Displacement:
   6 200 t light; 6 451 t standard; 6 893 t normal; 7 247 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   301.84 ft / 301.84 ft x 59.06 ft x 21.83 ft (normal load)
   92.00 m / 92.00 m x 18.00 m  x 6.65 m

Armament:
      2 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns in single mounts, 402.82lbs / 182.71kg shells, 1887 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
      2 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns in single mounts, 402.82lbs / 182.71kg shells, 1887 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 29.14lbs / 13.22kg shells, 1887 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.03lbs / 1.37kg shells, 1887 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 1 869 lbs / 848 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   239.50 ft / 73.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 122 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   7.87" / 200 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10 284 ihp / 7 672 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 797 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   377 - 491

Cost:
   £0.693 million / $2.771 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 234 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 1 593 tons, 23.1 %
      - Belts: 642 tons, 9.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 420 tons, 6.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 484 tons, 7.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1 997 tons, 29.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 217 tons, 32.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 693 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 160 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4 366 lbs / 1 981 Kg = 10.8 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.620
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Mid (40 %):      15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Quarterdeck (16 %):   15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Stern:      15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.09 ft / 4.60 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 13 282 Square feet or 1 234 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 543 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.93
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

Ah... the Capitan Prat!
Always been one of my favorite of the 2nd class Battleships.

[Jefgte]

French TBs
The first one are strictly the N°1 - 9 & 41

-1875-Torpilleur n°1-38x4.2x1.25-2.6-101t-800shp-14.37kts-1TT356mm-proue+1TTpoupe

-1875-Torpilleur Thornycroft-n°9-27t
26.4x2.93x0.98x300shp-18kts
hampe1TT

-1876-Torpilleur de 27m-Normand-N°41-27x3.55x0.54-30.5t-320-500shp-18kts-1TT

-1877-80t-38x4.2x1.31-2x37+2ttx356-125nm-10kts-1050shp-18.7kts

-1878-80t-38x4.2x1.31-2x37+2ttx356-125nm-10kts-1120shp-19kts

-1879-100t-40x4.4x1.48-2x37+2ttx356-150nm-10kts-1600shp-20.2kts

-1880-Manche class (Channel class)- 200t-50x6x1.75-2x47+4TTx356-250nm-10kts-3000shp-21.7kts

From 1877 to 1880, all Torpilleurs are:
"Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
"
That is not la "Jeune Ecole" but la "Jef Ecole"
:D  :D  :D

[Jefgte]

SS of the Channel class

Speed reduce to 21kts & misc weight increase to 10t
This ship could be equipped with sails if neccessary.


1880-200TB, France 4TTx355+2x47-Manche classe laid down 1880

Displacement:
   200 t light; 205 t standard; 212 t normal; 217 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   164.04 ft / 164.04 ft x 19.69 ft x 5.74 ft (normal load)
   50.00 m / 50.00 m x 6.00 m  x 1.75 m

Armament:
     2 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.69lbs / 1.22kg shells, 1880 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
   Weight of broadside 5 lbs / 2 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 14.0" / 355.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.49" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2 750 ihp / 2 051 Kw = 21.25 kts
   Range 260nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 12 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   27 - 36

Cost:
   £0.026 million / $0.102 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0.3 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 128 tons, 60.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 61 tons, 28.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 11 tons, 5.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 4.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39 lbs / 18 Kg = 14.4 x 1.9 " / 47 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 9.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Forecastle (16 %):   9.51 ft / 2.90 m
      - Mid (50 %):      7.22 ft / 2.20 m
      - Quarterdeck (12 %):   7.22 ft / 2.20 m
      - Stern:      7.22 ft / 2.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 202.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 1 988 Square feet or 185 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 18 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 17 lbs/sq ft or 84 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.44
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 0.50
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Sachmle]

Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.44
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 0.50
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea

[Carthaginian]

Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.44
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 0.50
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea

With a 210 n. mi. cruising range, I don't exactly see these vessels entering 'open sea,' Sam.
I think these are strictly harbor defense boats... and by 'harbor defense' I mean something like Lower Mobile Bay (draw too much water for the Upper Bay), and not even something like the Chesapeake.

[TexanCowboy]

No reason to worry about it now, guys. When we get the ship design rules from the mods, it can easily be dealt with, or maybe it falls within. Who knows?

[Sachmle]

With a 210 n. mi. cruising range, I don't exactly see these vessels entering 'open sea,' Sam.
I think these are strictly harbor defense boats... and by 'harbor defense' I mean something like Lower Mobile Bay (draw too much water for the Upper Bay), and not even something like the Chesapeake.

I was more referring to the 0.44 cross-sectional.

[Carthaginian]

With a 210 n. mi. cruising range, I don't exactly see these vessels entering 'open sea,' Sam.
I think these are strictly harbor defense boats... and by 'harbor defense' I mean something like Lower Mobile Bay (draw too much water for the Upper Bay), and not even something like the Chesapeake.

I was more referring to the 0.44 cross-sectional.

I kinda was as well.
We agreed that 0.50 was the minimum that a 'fast ship' could have and be considered fit to go to sea.
If the ship will never leave protected waters, then there would be nothing wrong- theoretically- with it having a weaker hull. Now, should these ships ever leave protected waters, they would be in grave danger of breaking up and sinking... but then again, so were most real early torpedo boats.

[Jefgte]

Rework "Manche classe"

1880-200TB, France 3TTx355+2x47-Manche class laid down 1880

Displacement:
   200 t light; 205 t standard; 210 t normal; 215 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   159.12 ft / 159.12 ft x 19.69 ft x 5.87 ft (normal load)
   48.50 m / 48.50 m x 6.00 m  x 1.79 m

Armament:
      2 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.69lbs / 1.22kg shells, 1880 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
   Weight of broadside 5 lbs / 2 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   3 - 14.0" / 355.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.49" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2 680 ihp / 1 999 Kw = 21.04 kts
   Range 210nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 10 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   26 - 35

Cost:
   £0.025 million / $0.101 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0.3 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 127 tons, 60.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 64 tons, 30.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 10 tons, 4.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 3.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41 lbs / 19 Kg = 15.4 x 1.9 " / 47 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 9.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12.61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      7.22 ft / 2.20 m
      - Forecastle (16 %):   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
      - Mid (50 %):      6.79 ft / 2.07 m
      - Quarterdeck (12 %):   6.79 ft / 2.07 m
      - Stern:      6.79 ft / 2.07 m
      - Average freeboard:   7.46 ft / 2.27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 201.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 1 928 Square feet or 179 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 19 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 93 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.66
      - Overall: 0.56
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

This ship is also equipped with sails

[Sachmle]

I kinda was as well.
We agreed that 0.50 was the minimum that a 'fast ship' could have and be considered fit to go to sea.
If the ship will never leave protected waters, then there would be nothing wrong- theoretically- with it having a weaker hull. Now, should these ships ever leave protected waters, they would be in grave danger of breaking up and sinking... but then again, so were most real early torpedo boats.

I see Jef already reworked it, but you do have a point. I'm stuck in N3/WW shipbuilding rule mindset, but your point is valid and perhaps should be considered. Or maybe, instead of having min/max let us build what we want (within reason) and if it fails (due to poor cross-sectional, low/high L:B, etc..) then it will be quite realistic. Look at the Japanese CLs that capsized after launch due to topweight. SS would proly give them a poor metacentric height, and they had a very fine L:B, probably outside our present rules allowance. Or the German inter-war CLs that had to be strengthened later due to hull cracks from the light work and all-welded construction used in their building. SS would probably have them at less the 1.00 overall or at least less than 0.80 cross-sectional. We should let ppl build ships like this, to many of our ships have been 'perfect' ideas with no glaring flaws, while IRL lots of ships had quite obvious flaws.

[Jefgte]

Admiral Battleship Hoche modified by the "Ministre de la Guerre"
Central superstructure between the 274 mm guns are affected to the Admiral & his staff.
Protection from the waves added around the 340mm turrets .



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Jef  ;)